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Sneks and Witches - UKG vs Ouroboros

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To answer your question, because its not corruption from what is being stated here? Its like oranges and apples, or mind manip and possession, sure the outcome is the same but the mechanics are definitely not.

Again, thats not a reisstance feat. "X were observed or created like tbis, so nope" isn't resistance. Otherwise literally everyone created or ibserved being would have resistance no?

Also, has it even been potrayed to corrupt sense of self?
 
@Setsuna The point of the matter is that again, to corrupt their form into what we see in the series, even YHVH needed to resort to Observation. And they retained their senses, memories and didn't quite become subservient fools.

He couldn't just up and use whatever hax despite being immensely superior to warp them into the corrupt forms - he used Observation, like what happened to Baal turning into Beelzebub because of being observed as such and later observed again into Baal.
 
And agaaaaain, you first have to prove that it normally corruots sense of self and thats its actual corruption, as you guys have described it to be of other mechanics.

Does he even have corruption outside of observation?

Also, could you not make the same argument for any ability of his that could change them? Ie "He couldnt just up and use whatever hax despite beinh immensely surperior to warp them into corrupt forms- he used x ability"
 
Also why are you guys arguing corruption to no end? You do realize that if you up and say something like "UKG wins via being higher in scale of 2-A and/or lasting enough to Mindhax Ouroboros before being killed" I won't say a word and will count the vote, right?

You're wasting time debating the OP for no reason by disputing SMT cosmology rather than the match.
-Inu x Boku SS (36)
 
SomebodyData said:
And agaaaaain, you first have to prove that it normally corruots sense of self and thats its actual corruption, as you guys have described it to be of other mechanics.
Does he even have corruption outside of observation?
Click to expand...
no.The covenant is information manipulation,stats reduction,power null,existance erasure,reality warping,concept manipulation,curse manipulation mixed in one.It uses all of this to achieve it
 
@SD No SD, you have to prove to me UKG has anything that overwrites a being defined as such by a 1-C saying "It is this way, it was corrupted this way and unless someone else using the 1-C hax tells me it's something else, it's unchanging."

I'm not falling for that weird reversal of burden of proof, and even less so when everyone else, Kaltias included, didn't seem to have any problem with the reasoning - for again, this being generally a really obvious matter of SMT cosmology.
 
You started the argument tho, and have no real reason to debate in this match, where as thats why we came here to begin with, technically its just you wasting your time.

O V O
 
Not really. I'm saying it's counter productive for you since I know it won't lead you anywhere, honestly.

Unless suddenly 2-A >>>> 1-C in anyone's book. ovo
 
@Matt no one said UKG does. We're saying, ironically enough, observation =/= UKG, hence why resisting that doesnt matter when its a different ability.

@Fate I'll say it one last time, apples and oranges, same outcome but entirely different mechanics. It isn't overwriting it, as you havent even prove it affects the sense of self either, its likely saying you have to prove posession can override mind manip.

90% sure its a fallacy to appeal to it not being argued before, regardless, its a situation that by your loguc again, would happen. also not a burden of proof argument. Not sure where you got that.
 
SomebodyData said:
@Matt no one said UKG does. We're saying, ironically enough, observation =/= UKG, hence why resisting that doesnt matter when its a different ability.
@Fate I'll say it one last time, apples and oranges, same outcome but entirely different mechanics. It isn't overwriting it, as you havent even prove it affects the sense of self either, its likely saying you have to prove posession can override mind manip.

90% sure its a fallacy to appeal to it not being argued before, regardless, its a situation that by your loguc again, would happen. also not a burden of proof argument. Not sure where you got that.
Click to expand...
The covenant is information manipulation,stats reduction,power null,existance erasure,reality warping,concept manipulation,curse manipulation mixed in one.It uses all of this to achieve it
 
Well clearly I cant convince you that resisting one ability doesnt mean resisting a different ability, so I guess I'll take your suggestion and just vote via her passives?
 
UKG's curses have to go through what Observation defined them as in order to corrupt them.

It has to Overwrite the Observation in order to corrupt them in any manner whatsoever.

How am I the one using any sort of fallacy when you alone seem to argue a 2-A has any manner in existence to bypass 1-C Observation to make the Curses work and change the demons into whatever else when in-verse that is a huge nope even for characters who would curbstomp UKG is beyond what I can possibly grasp.
 
Anyways - if by that you actually mean stuff like the mindhax, surely.

UKG: 1 (SomebodyData)

Ouroboros:

Inconclusive:
 
Wow, completely ignore the part where I said you never proved it corrupts sense of self, something that Ive been literally asking you to show the entire time as otherwise it would not fall under the observation.
 
"if by that you actually mean stuff like the mindhax, surely"

...


Are you serious? Have you not read what I've been saying? Sense of self. Of course I mean mind hax, what do you think that means?
 
SD. One last time.

The curses corrupt the target.

The demons state of existence as a whole is defined by Observation and is absolutely unchanging unless Observation is used again.

The curses. Need to overrule. What Observation defines the Demons as a whole. In order to work.

So saying UKG possibly affects them with Curses is like saying her 2-A is superior to SMT's 1-C.

You're making the mother of NLFs here by possibly arguing this.
 
Also I want to ask you to calm down first and foremost and say sorry if any of my replies annoyed you in any manner whatsoever.

This is necessary because From my own experience and your very own words once, PMMM related threads "make you go sort of cray-cray sometimes".

87f88473a649ebc832e694e313bc0475
 
Fate. One last time.

I already know what it does

Mind haxxing sense of self. Does not need to overrule. Even you admitted that. Your argument is literally contradicting what you've said.

So saying that Observation is even relevant here is a massive leap of logic.

You are making tha father of the logic olympics by arguing this.
 
SomebodyData said:
Mind haxxing sense of self. Does not need to overrule. Even you admitted that. Your argument is literally contradicting what you've said.
Click to expand...
I didn't discount the mind-haxxing bit (which you sort of should have seen by your vote counted over there) so I'm honestly not sure what you're even arguing against at this point. *reflects*
 
Whats annoying me is that either sense of self means something different to you or youre just reading my conclusions and not the stuff before it.

also asking me to calm down is kinda weird (?) ive been copying your sentence structures just flipping the words around fyi.
 
Ye I noticed, but you keep on saying that sense of self wouldnt be affected, which conflicts with that.

Like arguing against it and admitting it at the same time, for some reason.
 
@SD I'm telling you to calm down because by my own experience, you might start getting overly snarky and sort of passive-agressive when PMMM anything is involved in a VS Thread. You once went to my wall yourself to say sorry for that. I thought I may want to tell you that whether it happens to be the case here or not before an otherwise good thread runs the risk of going down the bad road.

"but you keep on saying that sense of self wouldnt be affected, which conflicts with that."

Because there's a sensible, quite obvious and indisputable difference between telling someone's mind to not do x or y so they actively don't, to actually changing the structure of their mind or self as it's defined and set in stone by a 1-C power, via using a 2-A hax.
 
I guess? Like I said before, I'm copying your sentence structures, if I said anything passive agressive, perhaps you should look at your own structures first or maybe something is lost in translation?

UKG's mind manip does both, so the 'senisble difference' isnt really there.
 
"I used your sentence structure"

...You can use the exact same sentence structure as anyone. That's irrelevant - change one word however and a perfectly normal text can become something else entirely. But enough of semantics.

If what you mean is that your vote was based on insta-corrupting Maya's mind into something else entirely via curses, rather than using the mindhax the way presented before (I believe Kaltias presented the original argument) like with Witch's Kiss, I might have to revoke that vote and then we'll be starting this all over again.

Otherwise, carry on.
 
Its probably the anime girls not gonna lie, they radiate a subtle form of smugness that only men of culture can detect
 
About the degree of 2-A thing, it's

UKG = Madoka = Homura > AoC (AoC is created by UKG's passive curses, while a fellow 2-A aka Madoka restrains her) = Current multiverse.

AoC has no reason to destroy the World of Witches, it was only destroying the World of Wraiths.

And we dropped the universe of curses thing for UKG a while ago

@Ult

As for the stat amp/debuff, it's definitely useful, but UKG can remove the latter, and the former should be balanced by the power null + her own stat amp
 
I'll go ahead and count that as another vote for UKG, Kal.

UKG: 2 (SomebodyData, Kaltias)

Ouroboros:

Inconclusive:
 
UKG's?

As long as she is looking at you, you remain in a depowered state, massively lowered stats overall, and can't use your abilities. You regain your power as soon as you get out of sight tho
 
@Zach Considering the purpose of the thread was to give the abandoned snek a match, I'm amazed it actually got this far, tbh, since most SMT matches nowadays tend to end before they start and stuff.

UKG: 6 (SomebodyData, Kaltias, ShiroEinzbern, ShadowWarrior1999, ZacharyGrossman273, Setsuna Tenma)

Ouroboros:

Inconclusive:
 
But no seriously, Ouroboros was never ever used. This is literally the one and only thread the snek has and even then I only made it because it was directly adressed how it didn't have a single one.
 
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