Sneks and Witches - UKG vs Ouroboros

[Kaltias]

Killing acausals doesn't really require any feat unless it's type 3/5.

That said, pretty sure that she also punches way harder, so she can buy time that way

 

[Szmiit]

Ultimate Madoka has removing from existence atacks but could only banish her, not kill her properly. Of course there was paradox between them that helped UKG, but she had a resistance. Can Ouroboros overcome 4D existence erasure resistance?

 

[FateAlbane]

@Szmiit I sort of just explained above why that's a non issue, already.

 

[Szmiit]

@FateAlbane Since nobody disagrees I'll belive you.

@Kaltias says UKG punches way harder, so she would have time to start seriously mindhax especially after seeing that he comes back.

Can Null Mind protect against memory/mind manipulation?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

How high is UKG on the 2-A scale again? Just to be sure.

Though even if she hits harder than Snek Mom, the latter can just use Buff / Debuff Skills, which are capable of inverting Stomp Matches in SMT.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Madoka (twice above baseline) <<< Supposed peak of UKG <<< Current UKG.

 

[Schnee_One]

I thought UKG and Madoka were equal?

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

PMMM Scaling: Two Multiverse=AoC<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<UKG=Madoka=Homura.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Uh... I don't think they're that high.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

AoC is byproduct of UKG mere presence.

 

[Jobbo]

Wait, isn't AoC only a single multiverse? I believe it was the high end ones who scaled to two.

 

[SomebodyData]

Actual Scaling:

AoC = World of Wraiths <<<<< Ultimate Madoka = World of Wraiths and Witches </= UKG <?< UKG as of Wraith Arc

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

???

What's with the last part?

 

[SomebodyData]

Well we don't quite know how big the jump is.

Context for everyone else: Peak UKG should be able to destroy a universe from sheer curses (basically by existing), Wraith Arc UKG's curses can destroy the entire multiverse. Understand that as you will.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Wait, isn't AoC only a single multiverse? I believe it was the high end ones who scaled to two.

Yeah, AoC is baseline. UKG, Madoka, And Homura are two multiverses.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Why are we discussing brute force when one has double mid godly and the other has 10-D immortality

 

[ShiroEinzbern]

because incap is a thing? I mean they both have mad regen so incap is the solution left, but before that IS the demon capable of killing UKG? if no, does demon RESIST UKG's passive, like curses, power null, and abilities like Law Manip, etc. vice versa

 

[FateAlbane]

>>> Kaltias asks if it can kill UKG, given the chance.

>>> I say "yes", explain the reasons and also get the scans to make it more fair of an answer.

>>> Someone else asks if it can kill UKG.

>>> Me: "I just answered that."

>>> I come back.

>>> People still questioning whether Ouroboros can kill UKG as if said question or answer isn't in the thread.

>>> Me tying the knot of the rope and getting on top of my chair at this very moment.

 

[ShiroEinzbern]

mega OOF I didn't saw your reply lemme backread

 

[FateAlbane]

I'm the OP so I can't vote, in which case take this particular reply of mine with a grain of salt but judging from the discussion as a whole up until now, to me at the moment it seems like the main question is whether Ouroboros annihilates UKG first or UKG mindhaxxes first, unless I'm missing some reasoning around.

That is probably the reason why people are asking about 2-A scaling as that could generally be a factor in guessing what may happen first.

 

[ShiroEinzbern]

UKG mindhax is passive so yeah instantaneous, so how fast Ouroboros' abilities activate?

 

[SomebodyData]

If we're being technical, UKG's Corruption, Power Null, and other passives go first before the mind manip due to being passive.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Shiro Wait what?

I heard the curses are passive and those are resisted for reasons I explained above, what do you mean the Mindhax is passive? As far as I know that's Homura's thing.

Also I don't remember Witch Kiss having feats of passively mind haxxing 2-As. Not saying it can't mindhax the demon eventually, just not seeing this insta-happening as soon as the match starts.

 

[SomebodyData]

Shiro youre probably thinking of homura

 

[ShiroEinzbern]

wait— damn I got confused uwu, my bad

 

[SomebodyData]

@Fate and what kind of corruption did they resist again? Seems like a rather basic form, at least to the extent of it.

Also the other passives such as power null and holy manip

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I'm tempted to call ouroboros "not the worm in waiting"

Uh, isn't holy manipulation rather vague?

 

[FateAlbane]

@SD Considering it comes from 1-C corruption from YHVH and the Observation hax from the Axiom and they still manage to exist with their general functions and consciousness just fine, I'd say that it's enough to resist UKG.

Particularly so because in-verse to tamper with their current state of being, Observation needs to be used again if you want to change them to anything else or revert to the original form. A 1-C hax is what defines their forms and to change it or corrupt it, same sort of 1-C hax needs to be used.

 

[SomebodyData]

Nah, the durability negation part was removed by the continous burning remains, hence the discussion about ap

Though that reminds me, it also forces people to never stop talking about their sins

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

@SD Considering it comes from High 1-C corruption from YHVH and the Observation hax from the Axiom and they still manage to exist with their general functions and consciousness just fine, I'd say that it's enough to resist UKG.
Particularly so because in-verse to tamper with their current state of being, Observation needs to be used again if you want to change them to anything else or revert to the original form. A High 1-C hax is what defines their forms and to change it or corrupt it, same sort of High 1-C hax needs to be used.

when did ouroboros resist couruption from YHVH and observation

 

[FateAlbane]

Note: I actually meant 1-C in the reply above since YHVH did it, too. Going to edit that.

 

[SomebodyData]

I dunno Fate they way you described it sounds like it wasnt the same kinda corruption of ukg, ehich changed the 'purpose' of the wraiths.

Also you sure they resisted it? Not sure if thats accurate given how both work.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Setsuna Tenma Every demon form is literally what Observation defines them as and to change their form in any relevant manner it has to be used again regardless of gap in power levels. That's basic SMT knowledge.

"Also IIRC demon forms are materialized from Observation to begin with so that's sort of a 1-C Hax that allows them to exist in reality, which I doubt the law from UKG can overrule as at that point it would need to be >>>> The Axiom in hax scale."

You can't change a demon's overall form and characteristics or corrupt them in reality in any manner whatsoever unless you use Observation to change them. Even YHVH at 1-C needed to use Observation for that matter, meaning their current states are already corrupted ones to begin with, determined by Observation and the Axiom. Not to mention Lucifer outright stating humans can kill/change them due to Observation but demons ludicrously more powerful can only seal each other.

 

[SomebodyData]

Thats not a feat of resistance

Thats also not a feat of resistance, itll be like me saying wraiths are immune up to 2-A law manip

And does YHVH have corruption with other abilities to use on demons? If not, it sounds less about scale and more about ability

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

It's not exactly corruption but it's damn similar

 

[SomebodyData]

Yes and so is possession and mind manip but the resistances are clearly not the same, basically same outcome but different mechanics.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

It is information manipulation,existance erasure,reality warping,concept manipulation,curse manipulation mixed in one

 

[SomebodyData]

@Setsuna thats pretty impressive, dont get me wrong, but why would that give resistance to unrelated ability?...

 

[FateAlbane]

It quite definitely is since they did go through Observation hax and were corrupted into something else entirely but still retained their sense of self and powers from prior to the corruption just fine. If 1-C hax didn't corrupt them to a powerless senseless state of being from a character far above UKG, remind me again why I should say UKG has better chances or any law to overwrite what the AXIOM or YHVH defined them as?

It's like UKG at 2-A saying they are something but it's written in stone: "They were observed as this, so nope."

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

corruption does not take away power.Also the covenant is not corruption