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Okay. If @Warren_Valion and @SleepyTBubble are not going to make further comments here, I think that seems to be the best solution then.
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Small Dies Irae Revisions: I see says the blind man
- Thread starter TISSG7Redgrave
- Start date
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Since I commented here, I will see this through to the end.
I still strongly disagree with High-Godly being included, like at all.
Mercurius' resurrection is instantaneous, and nowhere is it stated that he needs to be in Glads to do it (Also, barring being with Marie for a few moments, where would he be if not Glads?). And IIRC, Beatrice begged Mercurius to not resurrect them, as if it was as simple as turning off a switch, and he complied. So them fighting each other for 60+ years has no proof to be via regeneration and not their instant resurrection, and there is proof of the opposite.
Also, the clip that Qlipoth linked explicitly says that Schreiber is never hit by Machina's fist, which is called "dreadfully fatal", even to Schreiber, and the only reason he survived is that he just never got hit in the first place.
The only reason they don't stay dead is that they are resurrected.
It is also directly said that they kill the others and are brought back to life, and that Machina's fist would kill the other Einherjar.
They are not regenerating from it, they can't regenerate from something that kills them and requires them to be resurrected. That makes no sense.
You don't have explicit proof of High Godly regeneration, Wolfgang regenerating a leg and the Einherjar fighting each other for 60+ years doesn't definitively prove they have High-Godly, and the novel, numerous times, directly states the opposite.
High-Godly Regen is wank, I am sorry, but I will not back down on this argument.
Anyway, I recommend following the instructions that I laid out in my last post.
I still strongly disagree with High-Godly being included, like at all.
Mercurius' resurrection is instantaneous, and nowhere is it stated that he needs to be in Glads to do it (Also, barring being with Marie for a few moments, where would he be if not Glads?). And IIRC, Beatrice begged Mercurius to not resurrect them, as if it was as simple as turning off a switch, and he complied. So them fighting each other for 60+ years has no proof to be via regeneration and not their instant resurrection, and there is proof of the opposite.
Also, the clip that Qlipoth linked explicitly says that Schreiber is never hit by Machina's fist, which is called "dreadfully fatal", even to Schreiber, and the only reason he survived is that he just never got hit in the first place.
The only reason they don't stay dead is that they are resurrected.
It is also directly said that they kill the others and are brought back to life, and that Machina's fist would kill the other Einherjar.
They are not regenerating from it, they can't regenerate from something that kills them and requires them to be resurrected. That makes no sense.
You don't have explicit proof of High Godly regeneration, Wolfgang regenerating a leg and the Einherjar fighting each other for 60+ years doesn't definitively prove they have High-Godly, and the novel, numerous times, directly states the opposite.
High-Godly Regen is wank, I am sorry, but I will not back down on this argument.
Anyway, I recommend following the instructions that I laid out in my last post.
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“You don't have explicit proof of High Godly regeneration, Wolfgang regenerating a leg and the Einherjar fighting each other for 60+ years doesn't definitively prove they have High-Godly, and the novel, numerous times, directly states the opposite”
I mean thats why it would be “possibly” High-Godly, not likely or even straight up High-Godly as iirc you dont require definitive 100% proof for “possibly”.
I mean thats why it would be “possibly” High-Godly, not likely or even straight up High-Godly as iirc you dont require definitive 100% proof for “possibly”.
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I mean tbf, I'm pretty sure all of my posts so far are just saying "this is possible, this is not possible" when it comes to whatever kinds of evidence you COULD use to argue for.
Not saying that you CAN or that it is definite, just that it's at best possible.
Not saying that you CAN or that it is definite, just that it's at best possible.
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DK? I only came here to give what I can cuz Redgrave asked me.
If anyone else DOES make a better case and have more evidence, then they can make said better case. I do recall Red telling me that there is more potential evidence for high but that probably is in some sound drama's which neither of us have on us let alone access, hence the VN is all we got.
If anyone else DOES make a better case and have more evidence, then they can make said better case. I do recall Red telling me that there is more potential evidence for high but that probably is in some sound drama's which neither of us have on us let alone access, hence the VN is all we got.
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I guess simply make a note talking about the points and evidence already used so that they arnt used again? So as not to say it cant be argued again just you cant use the exact same points without more evidence.
Also would “Mid-Godly, possibly Higher” work better or are we just 100% for pure Mid-Godly.
Also would “Mid-Godly, possibly Higher” work better or are we just 100% for pure Mid-Godly.
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Is the Mid-Godly thing based on the Einherjar being able to revive and reform from destruction of the soul in Glads?
I feel like that seems to be the main reason for it unless we're also using the Methuselah thing which causes even the soul to die too?
I feel like that seems to be the main reason for it unless we're also using the Methuselah thing which causes even the soul to die too?
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I think its that they can regen from Soul Destruction.
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@PsychoWarper Makes sense. All the Einherjar are souls there last I recall, even Reinhard is just a soul in Glads for most of DI (depending on the route ofc). And destroying even just the "normal souls" like those of civilians or Waffen SS with Ahnenerbe doesn't do them in unless you're using something potent and broken like Ren's Schrezo Briah.
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- Thread starter
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those two scans don't really mean that it would be an instant kill. it's just a routine for eiherjar to just slaughter each other regardless of them being allies. I can understand if we don't have VN proof even though we have one showing (albeitly i see the problem but tbf machina's fist as i said just erases you even if you so much as touch his fists which means he doesn't localize it) it can't be denied they wouldn't just stop even after getting hit and why assume merc would even do that constantly when he was doing other things during that time while the other eiherjar just ket fighting. And even with the story saying his fists are dreadfully fatal...then wolfie would have done everything to avoid getting hit by machina or even touch his fists but in his maddened state (which i can argue due to being pure instinct he would try to survive and dodge at all costs) so even then he knew he wouldn't die from touching it otherwise as we know he would have avoided everything altogether
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Dude, again, it is either a mistake or maybe Machina was able to control what he was erasing - this is a 100+ hour Visual Novel, Masada is bound to make some mistakes with the story. It doesn't matter what happened, just we know what is happening and what we know about the visual novel.
Wolfgang CAN'T regenerate from Machina's fists, if it directly stated numerous times that those fists KILLS him, and he needs to be resurrected by Merc/Issak/Reinhard to come back. That doesn't make any sense. You are creating a form of circular scaling with their regeneration and resurrection, and that doesn't work. If you want High-Godly regeneration, you need to have it be from something else, as Machina's fists are explicitly shown to be beyond their regenerative abilities.
Having High-Godly regen is demonstrably proven to be completely illogical. You haven't proven against this very clear fact.
And what is this Merc argument? Merc doesn't do anything. He just pops up, annoys people, talks/plays chess with Reinhard, and talks with Marie for a bit. He isn't a busy person. And why would he do that??? Because Gladsheimr is the land of infinite resurrection, that's literally its purpose, and the fact that he can do it instantly shows that it isn't remotely something that takes any effort to do so.
Mentioning High-Godly of any sorts, even a possible rating, is not valid because there is sufficient evidence against it. Possible ratings are only valid when there isn't the most proof of a concept and it isn't contested by anything. Reinhard is "At least 5-A, possibly 3-A" from scaling above a feat of one of his underlings, and a single statement by that underling, for example. Only a single statement puts Reinhard on Meth's level, but nothing contests it, so the rating is valid, but High-Godly regen via Machina's fists doesn't have that.
At best, this would be "At least Mid-Godly".
Wolfgang CAN'T regenerate from Machina's fists, if it directly stated numerous times that those fists KILLS him, and he needs to be resurrected by Merc/Issak/Reinhard to come back. That doesn't make any sense. You are creating a form of circular scaling with their regeneration and resurrection, and that doesn't work. If you want High-Godly regeneration, you need to have it be from something else, as Machina's fists are explicitly shown to be beyond their regenerative abilities.
Having High-Godly regen is demonstrably proven to be completely illogical. You haven't proven against this very clear fact.
And what is this Merc argument? Merc doesn't do anything. He just pops up, annoys people, talks/plays chess with Reinhard, and talks with Marie for a bit. He isn't a busy person. And why would he do that??? Because Gladsheimr is the land of infinite resurrection, that's literally its purpose, and the fact that he can do it instantly shows that it isn't remotely something that takes any effort to do so.
Mentioning High-Godly of any sorts, even a possible rating, is not valid because there is sufficient evidence against it. Possible ratings are only valid when there isn't the most proof of a concept and it isn't contested by anything. Reinhard is "At least 5-A, possibly 3-A" from scaling above a feat of one of his underlings, and a single statement by that underling, for example. Only a single statement puts Reinhard on Meth's level, but nothing contests it, so the rating is valid, but High-Godly regen via Machina's fists doesn't have that.
At best, this would be "At least Mid-Godly".
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Yeah, that's why I said that every character would get Mid-Godly within Glads boundaries (Replacing their current Type 4 Immortality) via the Meth feat, which is pretty blatant, and the Einherjar being able to regen their bodies and souls with their every blow.
And regen for the Meth feat makes more sense than resurrection because those that die in Glads boundaries are made apart of Glads, but none of the L.D.O. became apart of Glads at that time, implying that despite having their souls aged to nothing, they were still alive.
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An interesting idea is if we where to find other proof besides Machina we may be justified in Machina having High-Godly Regen neg.
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It depends on how its shown and also arnt Wolfgang and Machina comparable in terms of AP
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@PsychoWarper The Battalion Commanders (Eleonore, Machina, Wolfgang) are said to be equal in strength to one another. Which is weird considering Wolf has three times the amount of souls Machina and Eleonore have, but this was at the time when they were at their full power and getting buffed overtime to artificial godhood in Rea's Route.
So at the very least, they're all comparable to one another in terms of strength/power.
So at the very least, they're all comparable to one another in terms of strength/power.
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Machina's punches can ignore durability too
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- Thread starter
- #65
I'll just add this cuz idk. To note we see in ikabey machina's fist do not stop its erasure and isn't controlled which means no matter what he does what will happen is machina's fist will do what it always do. I mean its to the point meth acknowledged its danger and they noted that machina doesn't control what he erases and he just erases without a care in the world. I believe its consistent with what we know of machina so touching him would spell erasure.exe.
I have no idea on this anymore but the regen wolfie did was after all the swastikas were open (basically ren's finale vs full power commanders and can't believe i didn't think this part up...) so idk if that will mean anything I'll just point it out while the killing part seems to be when the entire castle is at 7 or less open no? So they would be restricted right (The commanders and rein himself)? So what about unrestricted key which i feel its possible as the showing we have is when they are unrestricted while the ones about machina killing them is them restricted afaik (considering unrestricted commanders appear like 5% of the novel lolz so this MAYBE makes sense). Again idk how much it changes but i just felt the need to point it out.
I have no idea on this anymore but the regen wolfie did was after all the swastikas were open (basically ren's finale vs full power commanders and can't believe i didn't think this part up...) so idk if that will mean anything I'll just point it out while the killing part seems to be when the entire castle is at 7 or less open no? So they would be restricted right (The commanders and rein himself)? So what about unrestricted key which i feel its possible as the showing we have is when they are unrestricted while the ones about machina killing them is them restricted afaik (considering unrestricted commanders appear like 5% of the novel lolz so this MAYBE makes sense). Again idk how much it changes but i just felt the need to point it out.
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bumping cuz of the post i have
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IDEK at this point. It's just whatever.
I still think that what Glads gives them should also be regeneration. Resurrection is already a given for what's been talked about, including the speed recovery of whose best at reviving the Einherjar (Merc > Issac > Reinhard). While it's no doubt that Merc is the best at it and I COULD see him coming around whenever just cause, there's also the times where he might not be around and thus Issac and Rein would have to do the resurrection and regeneration of the Einherjar, which given Issac is the next best is probably covered by him whenever Merc isn't around.
Back onto the regeneration part, them recovering from soul destruction is obvious and straight forward. Ahnenerbe works by destroying on a physical and spiritual level, yet they can recover from that endlessly. Especially for the Commanders. The thing with this is I've tried to figure out if the Briah parts for the Einherjar is still applicable while completely restricted but that's a complete toss up and unknown for me unless someone can reason that they do since if they do, that includes Machina's Briah which can erase anything including concepts like personified darkness (Methuselah).
Point I'm getting at here: Just give them At least Mid-Godly if you guys want. I'm not even back to coming around to the idea of reworking on this series, so I can't even bother with arguing for this beyond giving my thoughts of this whole thing.
I still think that what Glads gives them should also be regeneration. Resurrection is already a given for what's been talked about, including the speed recovery of whose best at reviving the Einherjar (Merc > Issac > Reinhard). While it's no doubt that Merc is the best at it and I COULD see him coming around whenever just cause, there's also the times where he might not be around and thus Issac and Rein would have to do the resurrection and regeneration of the Einherjar, which given Issac is the next best is probably covered by him whenever Merc isn't around.
Back onto the regeneration part, them recovering from soul destruction is obvious and straight forward. Ahnenerbe works by destroying on a physical and spiritual level, yet they can recover from that endlessly. Especially for the Commanders. The thing with this is I've tried to figure out if the Briah parts for the Einherjar is still applicable while completely restricted but that's a complete toss up and unknown for me unless someone can reason that they do since if they do, that includes Machina's Briah which can erase anything including concepts like personified darkness (Methuselah).
Point I'm getting at here: Just give them At least Mid-Godly if you guys want. I'm not even back to coming around to the idea of reworking on this series, so I can't even bother with arguing for this beyond giving my thoughts of this whole thing.
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i mean we got the mid-godly. I was wondering if the swastikas also restrict glads in a lot of ways as i mentioned the statements of machina's fist killing eiherjar seem to be during when all were restricted and we do know machina cannot stop his fists affects even if his life depended on it. But the feat where wolfie touch them and just regenerated without a care was when the commanders have all their powers back and unrestricted by the swastikas (we know rein was restricted and even his yetzirah lost features thx to the swastikas as well as his ability to ressurect the eiherjars in an instant last i checked) so the only thing i can think of for high-godly is that it should be put in their unrestricted keys instead and that only.
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Right, right...
I would think so for the unrestricted keys then in that case. If we also go by Wilhelm's case of being an Einherjar (temporary as is), we are shown that it not only enables him to fight on a level far above what he normally can achieve otherwise, it also allows Wilhelm to regenerate instantly from any and all attacks even if they were severely life-threatening (from the perspective of someone like him, that is) like taking on Methuselah's Jaws of Darkness (Which would have killed Beatrice completely) and other weird hax stuff like the time acceleration. Although the last part I can't really recall if Wilhelm was actually being affected or he was but gave zero F's about it while fighting Methuselah...which actually would make it all the more impressive for what an Einherjar at their best can do given that thing was threatening every one of the LDO but Rein and Merc at the time.
I think it should also be noted that at the time of IkaBey, Bey (temporary Einherjar) could do all that while Reinhard wasn't restricted by anything like the Swastikas Ritual since this is before Berlin so anything Bey did, Reinhard's Einherjar can do it. Although if it's only to when he and Glads aren't completely restricted, then it should apply in any case.
I would think so for the unrestricted keys then in that case. If we also go by Wilhelm's case of being an Einherjar (temporary as is), we are shown that it not only enables him to fight on a level far above what he normally can achieve otherwise, it also allows Wilhelm to regenerate instantly from any and all attacks even if they were severely life-threatening (from the perspective of someone like him, that is) like taking on Methuselah's Jaws of Darkness (Which would have killed Beatrice completely) and other weird hax stuff like the time acceleration. Although the last part I can't really recall if Wilhelm was actually being affected or he was but gave zero F's about it while fighting Methuselah...which actually would make it all the more impressive for what an Einherjar at their best can do given that thing was threatening every one of the LDO but Rein and Merc at the time.
I think it should also be noted that at the time of IkaBey, Bey (temporary Einherjar) could do all that while Reinhard wasn't restricted by anything like the Swastikas Ritual since this is before Berlin so anything Bey did, Reinhard's Einherjar can do it. Although if it's only to when he and Glads aren't completely restricted, then it should apply in any case.
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Imo I think it should be "Immortality (Types 3, 4, 5 and 8: Insert various reasonings), Regeneration (At least Mid-Godly: Insert reasoning), Resurrection (On a High-Godly level: Insert various reasoning)"
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for the IKAbey keys idk if we can argue for high-godly besides its ressurection as we know rein got stronger by the time of DI so some things may change based on it but idk
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Mid godly regeneration for characters was accepted by warren and everyone else. Because regenerating from soul destruction was shown and implied in multiple occasions.
High godly regeneration was refused. Because it could be resurrection and it is against premise of one of the characters. Basically we haven't enough evidence for supporting it and it is vague. In my opinion it could only be resistance to existence erasure too.
And Type 5 immortality was debated but idk if it was accepted or not and Warren was neutral to it.
High godly regeneration was refused. Because it could be resurrection and it is against premise of one of the characters. Basically we haven't enough evidence for supporting it and it is vague. In my opinion it could only be resistance to existence erasure too.
And Type 5 immortality was debated but idk if it was accepted or not and Warren was neutral to it.
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i was gonna ask on the high part because it only happened when all the swastikas were open and the feat happened vs EFF ren after all the swastikas open. Maybe with all the swastikas closed the regen wasn't as powerful (we know because of them rein can't use everything due to them and grew stronger from berlin) so i was suggesting just put with all swastikas unlock (so only one key besides the god)
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Since the feat about wolfie regenning his leg after bouncing off machina's fist i suggested to whether high-godly is available for just the commanders after all the swastikas open because of both how rein is likely restricted during the events of the story and have gotten stronger after the ritual in berlin (This will only be at the dies irae (unrestricted by swastikas) key) but I haven't gotten comments on whether having the regen at just that key is fine.
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