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@EMS-TC02_Phantom
>Anyone with Beri'ah activated can do this. The whole point of Beri'ah is forcing your nonsensical common sense/logic upon others beside yourself so that they'll conform to your set definitions despite what might happen prior to that; this is something that my scans already said which is also in your OP to begin with. At that point it only became a question whether you have enough juice to do something significant to him or not (compability matters too i guess) as clashing your common sense against him is basically clashing your common sense against the entirety of humanity's definition of darkness up until the point of Methuselah's demise, and that's still without accounting the shitton amount of nights that he has stacked over the years. That's precisely why only Reinhard was capable of beating Methuselah through way of power and not logic like Wilhelm had to resort to.
Except Methuselah is directly stated to be half a step above a Ber'iah, and that his mystery went beyond the capabilities of a Ber'iah's ability to "destroy common sense".
I know you are using the scan that states that Wolfgang is affecting Meth, just on such an infinitesimal level that it doesn't matter, but that scan goes in direct contrast to everything that we know about Meth.
In which for Wilhelm to even to just touch/affect him (as shown previously when he would just go through Meth), he needed a Deus Ex Machina blood-pact between himself, Claudia, and Meth. If power was all that was needed, then the Blood Pact would be completely unnecessary, because Wilhelm got all the power he ever needed by being an Einherjar temporarily during their fight and was dispensing his entire soul stock with every attack he made. But it isn't unnecessary because he needs more than power, he needs the ability to affect Meth, something he can't do on his own with his own magic.
Or that Machina's (or Reinhard spear) Ber'iah was needed because it was explicitly stated to be able to kill even concepts. If everyone can affect concepts, then it doesn't really make sense to why Machina's Ber'iah is singled out for such an ability.
The idea that every Ewigkeit user can affect Meth, and just lack the power to do so, barring Reinhard obv, is a plot hole, that isn't supported beyond one (maybe two) scan(s) in the entire novel. Not to mention, it would give every Ewigkeit user Conceptual Manipulation for affecting Meth, and go against numerous other plot points established in the novel.
P.S.: The spear was also able to pierce Gudou God Marie's "soul shell" thing-y, which I am pretty sure that not every Ewigkeit member can do, so it definitely has more capabilities than the average Holy Relic, since it is the "Ultimate Holy Relic" and all.
>Those are basic functions that a Godslayer can do, something i already said above. And really you don't want to go with that line of arguments because it's actually you who would actually insinuates that Reinhard is entirely tier 1 prior to Godhood, by that point you'd be just shooting yourself in the foot.
Apoptosis is a natural born Godslayer, their entire being is tailored around that very purpose. Their "would kill god" doesn't merely entail the course of action that they would take but also their craving and functions/capabilities. Far as Omega Ewigkeit is concerned, there's 3 known things with Godslayer attributes and amongst those 3, Reinhard's the only one you could call Snake's Apoptosis. Whenever there's a comparison, either direct or indirect, made between them, it's the two things that got compared to Reinhard and not the other way around. Whatever your reasoning to say that the lance is a tier 1 stuff might be, it would applies to Reinhard even harder than it would for the Longinus itself.
オペレーション・エンスラポイドが行われた日、ラインハルトに宛てがわれた怪異は城型の巨大なホムンクルスで、極限的な魂喰らいである。これは五百年前、メルクリウスが自死を夢見た時に作り上げたもの。自滅のためだけに生まれたものでメルクリウスの裏面を具現化したもの。帯びている概念は破壊の愛。つまりはラインハルトと同じ物、過去の同種である。
That's the exact same thing as what the lance is. You could even call it a Proto-Reinhard with a built-in Longinus with your preferences to treat the lance and the man as different/separate things. By your arguments for the lance, this homunculus would also be tier 1 due to what being applicable to the lance is also fully applicable to it. This thing got clapped by Reinhard even before the plot of IkaBey started. By that logic Reinhard is already tier 1 even before IkaBey basically because of the arguments you presented for the lance.
The belief that the lance is a tier 1 object in all its aspects in itself is pretty problematic due to stuff like this. It might has some aspects that are indeed on the level of tier 1, every Godslayer stuff do in fact (a bunch of other ***** in Shinza Banshou, really), but stating that it's tier 1 in its entirety is pretty flawed and misleading. It'll only lead to a dumb and circular scaling that'd make Reinhard a tier 1 character character even before IkaBey and anyone whos around his level to be the same even prior to Godhood for all parties involved.
And really, both me and Alf already said to you that if any of the haxxier aspects that usually got associated to Longinus currently actually interacted with Methuselah in any sort of meaningful way, the consequences of what Reinhard did would also go beyond "reducing an ancient god embodying a certain aspect of nature" and just erases Methuselah as the concept of darkness outright, because by that point you're no longer just assclapping his mysteries away through sheer power, but you're also assclapping him in his entirety through several layers of hax bullshit.
>He got the cause mixed up, but that's still a point against Reinhard=/=Lance notion. Ougon Rensei and Swastika are mechanisms solely dedicated to Reinhard's being and by extension, Gladsheimr, only. If the lance is truly separate then it wouldn't be weakened by an incomplete set of opened Swastikas. What Rindou inherited at ruin of Valhalla under Fuji and what she did with it only further reinforces this.
What is this Godslayer stuff you are talking about? If it is something from beyond Dies Irae, then I don't know what it is.
Also, just throwing Japanese into a comment, without translating it is meaningless. Most of us, including myself, can't read or speak Japanese. Also, from what I can see, that is a Pantheon scan from the Prologue. Why would anything in that apply to Reinhard as an Apostle, and not as a God?
Despite that, it is just as I said previously, that the abilities of an Ewigkeit user aren't always available with the host despite the weapon being fused at their soul. Wilhelm can't drain you just by touching you, he needs to throw his blood stakes, Beatrice or Kei isn't inherently intangible, nor can Ren decapitate you or speed himself up without his Yetzirah or Ber'iah active. In fact, only Machina and Trifa are stated to be able to an Apostle with just their bare hands in the L.D.O. because their bodies are their weapons, which goes against this argument completely.
But I don't think you understand entirely what I am proposing, and that be my fault in not showing or explaining properly (my bad if that is the case), but the Spear itself is only 3-D in power, it's the effects of throwing the spear or unleashing its divine power is what is High 1-A, because that is when the "always faster than you, insta-kill," blah blah blah shit happens. I should probably specify that, since I can see know how that would be misleading.
Reinhard slamming his spear into someone, or Ren cutting someone with his scythe isn't High 1-A, for instance. But there are hax aspects of those weapons that are, and they are separate from Ren and Reinhard's own physical capabilities.
And no one is saying that the Spear is completely separate from Reinhard, obviously, it's not, it's a Holy Relic, but that it can do things that Reinhard himself can't, physically. There are aspects to a Holy Relic which don't inherently transfer over to the one it is fused with, that is why I am saying that you are insinuating that Reinhard is High 1-A, because than Reinhard would access to every High 1-A thing that the Spear can do, inherently. And he doesn't, he has to call on those powers, like he has to activate the Ber'iah's of his legion, he doesn't always have them on passively all the time, for instance.
There are numerous instances that, don't include Reinhard, in which a higher tier ability is separate from the character's physical strength.
Trifa and Marie's emotions/mindset weaken the destructive power of their attacks (Trifa throwing the spear or Marie's Death Curse) to the point where it doesn't even function properly, those are aspects of their abilities that are connected to them (even on an emotional level), but their power can vary without making the user physically weaker, for instance.
And that, because of the statements in the novel that insinuate that Reinhard's physical strength is only on the level of Meth and not so easily beyond him that he could casually one-shot his mystery. I believe the light of the spear, which you said yourself is the same Kanji (I think its Kanji) as throwing the spear ("especially considering that both the beam and the lance throw are the same exact 黄金の破壊光 move in the first place"), shouldn't be equivalent to Reinhard's own physical capabilities.
And that upscaling Reinhard from the strongest members of his legion and using scans that state that Reinhard ~= Meth is a much better method of describing Reinhard's own physical strength.
>Anyone with Beri'ah activated can do this. The whole point of Beri'ah is forcing your nonsensical common sense/logic upon others beside yourself so that they'll conform to your set definitions despite what might happen prior to that; this is something that my scans already said which is also in your OP to begin with. At that point it only became a question whether you have enough juice to do something significant to him or not (compability matters too i guess) as clashing your common sense against him is basically clashing your common sense against the entirety of humanity's definition of darkness up until the point of Methuselah's demise, and that's still without accounting the shitton amount of nights that he has stacked over the years. That's precisely why only Reinhard was capable of beating Methuselah through way of power and not logic like Wilhelm had to resort to.
Except Methuselah is directly stated to be half a step above a Ber'iah, and that his mystery went beyond the capabilities of a Ber'iah's ability to "destroy common sense".
I know you are using the scan that states that Wolfgang is affecting Meth, just on such an infinitesimal level that it doesn't matter, but that scan goes in direct contrast to everything that we know about Meth.
In which for Wilhelm to even to just touch/affect him (as shown previously when he would just go through Meth), he needed a Deus Ex Machina blood-pact between himself, Claudia, and Meth. If power was all that was needed, then the Blood Pact would be completely unnecessary, because Wilhelm got all the power he ever needed by being an Einherjar temporarily during their fight and was dispensing his entire soul stock with every attack he made. But it isn't unnecessary because he needs more than power, he needs the ability to affect Meth, something he can't do on his own with his own magic.
Or that Machina's (or Reinhard spear) Ber'iah was needed because it was explicitly stated to be able to kill even concepts. If everyone can affect concepts, then it doesn't really make sense to why Machina's Ber'iah is singled out for such an ability.
The idea that every Ewigkeit user can affect Meth, and just lack the power to do so, barring Reinhard obv, is a plot hole, that isn't supported beyond one (maybe two) scan(s) in the entire novel. Not to mention, it would give every Ewigkeit user Conceptual Manipulation for affecting Meth, and go against numerous other plot points established in the novel.
P.S.: The spear was also able to pierce Gudou God Marie's "soul shell" thing-y, which I am pretty sure that not every Ewigkeit member can do, so it definitely has more capabilities than the average Holy Relic, since it is the "Ultimate Holy Relic" and all.
>Those are basic functions that a Godslayer can do, something i already said above. And really you don't want to go with that line of arguments because it's actually you who would actually insinuates that Reinhard is entirely tier 1 prior to Godhood, by that point you'd be just shooting yourself in the foot.
Apoptosis is a natural born Godslayer, their entire being is tailored around that very purpose. Their "would kill god" doesn't merely entail the course of action that they would take but also their craving and functions/capabilities. Far as Omega Ewigkeit is concerned, there's 3 known things with Godslayer attributes and amongst those 3, Reinhard's the only one you could call Snake's Apoptosis. Whenever there's a comparison, either direct or indirect, made between them, it's the two things that got compared to Reinhard and not the other way around. Whatever your reasoning to say that the lance is a tier 1 stuff might be, it would applies to Reinhard even harder than it would for the Longinus itself.
オペレーション・エンスラポイドが行われた日、ラインハルトに宛てがわれた怪異は城型の巨大なホムンクルスで、極限的な魂喰らいである。これは五百年前、メルクリウスが自死を夢見た時に作り上げたもの。自滅のためだけに生まれたものでメルクリウスの裏面を具現化したもの。帯びている概念は破壊の愛。つまりはラインハルトと同じ物、過去の同種である。
That's the exact same thing as what the lance is. You could even call it a Proto-Reinhard with a built-in Longinus with your preferences to treat the lance and the man as different/separate things. By your arguments for the lance, this homunculus would also be tier 1 due to what being applicable to the lance is also fully applicable to it. This thing got clapped by Reinhard even before the plot of IkaBey started. By that logic Reinhard is already tier 1 even before IkaBey basically because of the arguments you presented for the lance.
The belief that the lance is a tier 1 object in all its aspects in itself is pretty problematic due to stuff like this. It might has some aspects that are indeed on the level of tier 1, every Godslayer stuff do in fact (a bunch of other ***** in Shinza Banshou, really), but stating that it's tier 1 in its entirety is pretty flawed and misleading. It'll only lead to a dumb and circular scaling that'd make Reinhard a tier 1 character character even before IkaBey and anyone whos around his level to be the same even prior to Godhood for all parties involved.
And really, both me and Alf already said to you that if any of the haxxier aspects that usually got associated to Longinus currently actually interacted with Methuselah in any sort of meaningful way, the consequences of what Reinhard did would also go beyond "reducing an ancient god embodying a certain aspect of nature" and just erases Methuselah as the concept of darkness outright, because by that point you're no longer just assclapping his mysteries away through sheer power, but you're also assclapping him in his entirety through several layers of hax bullshit.
>He got the cause mixed up, but that's still a point against Reinhard=/=Lance notion. Ougon Rensei and Swastika are mechanisms solely dedicated to Reinhard's being and by extension, Gladsheimr, only. If the lance is truly separate then it wouldn't be weakened by an incomplete set of opened Swastikas. What Rindou inherited at ruin of Valhalla under Fuji and what she did with it only further reinforces this.
What is this Godslayer stuff you are talking about? If it is something from beyond Dies Irae, then I don't know what it is.
Also, just throwing Japanese into a comment, without translating it is meaningless. Most of us, including myself, can't read or speak Japanese. Also, from what I can see, that is a Pantheon scan from the Prologue. Why would anything in that apply to Reinhard as an Apostle, and not as a God?
Despite that, it is just as I said previously, that the abilities of an Ewigkeit user aren't always available with the host despite the weapon being fused at their soul. Wilhelm can't drain you just by touching you, he needs to throw his blood stakes, Beatrice or Kei isn't inherently intangible, nor can Ren decapitate you or speed himself up without his Yetzirah or Ber'iah active. In fact, only Machina and Trifa are stated to be able to an Apostle with just their bare hands in the L.D.O. because their bodies are their weapons, which goes against this argument completely.
But I don't think you understand entirely what I am proposing, and that be my fault in not showing or explaining properly (my bad if that is the case), but the Spear itself is only 3-D in power, it's the effects of throwing the spear or unleashing its divine power is what is High 1-A, because that is when the "always faster than you, insta-kill," blah blah blah shit happens. I should probably specify that, since I can see know how that would be misleading.
Reinhard slamming his spear into someone, or Ren cutting someone with his scythe isn't High 1-A, for instance. But there are hax aspects of those weapons that are, and they are separate from Ren and Reinhard's own physical capabilities.
And no one is saying that the Spear is completely separate from Reinhard, obviously, it's not, it's a Holy Relic, but that it can do things that Reinhard himself can't, physically. There are aspects to a Holy Relic which don't inherently transfer over to the one it is fused with, that is why I am saying that you are insinuating that Reinhard is High 1-A, because than Reinhard would access to every High 1-A thing that the Spear can do, inherently. And he doesn't, he has to call on those powers, like he has to activate the Ber'iah's of his legion, he doesn't always have them on passively all the time, for instance.
There are numerous instances that, don't include Reinhard, in which a higher tier ability is separate from the character's physical strength.
Trifa and Marie's emotions/mindset weaken the destructive power of their attacks (Trifa throwing the spear or Marie's Death Curse) to the point where it doesn't even function properly, those are aspects of their abilities that are connected to them (even on an emotional level), but their power can vary without making the user physically weaker, for instance.
And that, because of the statements in the novel that insinuate that Reinhard's physical strength is only on the level of Meth and not so easily beyond him that he could casually one-shot his mystery. I believe the light of the spear, which you said yourself is the same Kanji (I think its Kanji) as throwing the spear ("especially considering that both the beam and the lance throw are the same exact 黄金の破壊光 move in the first place"), shouldn't be equivalent to Reinhard's own physical capabilities.
And that upscaling Reinhard from the strongest members of his legion and using scans that state that Reinhard ~= Meth is a much better method of describing Reinhard's own physical strength.
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