• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The time has come and so ha... wrong verse. Methuselah: The Concept Behind the Man and the Worldly Order

Status
Not open for further replies.
Tony_di_bugalu

Tony_di_bugalu

8,558
2,623

Before anything, the blog wasn't made by me but by a friend, he is kinda busy so I just hijacked it :v I made this CRT all by myself and you can't prove otherwise!​

Introduction​

Hey y'all, back at it again with another Dies Irae CRT. Don't you just love these~

Anyway, this CRT, as the title suggests, is about Methuselah. Well, to be more specific (for the most part anyway) it's about something beyond Methuselah.

"The Worldly Order".

But before we talk about that, there is some stuff that I want to talk about specifically, it has to deal with three things:

  • Methuselah's tiering justification
  • Adding a note that specifies the number of nights that he possesses within him is not what the localization says it is
  • And what level/type of conceptual being that he exactly.
Note 1: I need to thank Qliphoth Bacikal for his help in collecting almost all of the scans for me, and for him and TISSG7Redgrave's help in translating the tweet from Masada that is used here, and for his hand in writing the note. The idea was originally SchroKatze's, so thanks for bringing it to my attention. The discussion on Methuselah's conceptual level was drafted by Tony di bugalu (Who is me), and edited by me (Who is Tony). The other translations in this CRT come from this thread and are done by either ALRF/SleepyTBubble and/or Kerwin0831 (can't tell exactly where they are from, so my credit goes to both of them), so thanks to both of them as well.

You guys are all the best. Thanks for all your hard work.

Note 2: This CRT does not include any possible changes to tiering for either Machina or Methuselah, this purely focuses on Meth's Conceptual Level and the after-effects of Machina's erasure. Any changes to tiering will be covered in other CRTs.

Thank you


Meth's Conceptual Level​

I don't know if it has ever been asked or stated, but I feel that explaining what type of concept that Meth is and embodies is in order, so I'll do it outright.

First things first, I need to explain what exactly is Methuselah and how he interacts with the world.

Methuselah is the father of all the darkness in the world, from the darkness of night that passes through the years, darkness brought under sunlight or artificial lighting, shadows cast by animals and humans, the darkness inside caves, dense woods and the sides of buildings, all of these are his body and are under his territory.

Methuselah is all the darkness that exists in Mercurius' world, one who was born from "people's worship of the dark", a "dependent of God" who bears "some of the weight of the current God's law", and exists to keep "the world running as it was".

Without him there would be no light or darkness, leaving those regions with emptiness. Erasing him causes damage to the worldly order and would lead to the creation of a void that would return all of creation to nothingness.

With this we can see what he is, he is a being that shapes God's world and keeps it in place, and without him, everything would simply crumble into nothingness. He exists for the purpose of sustaining reality, and every aspect of darkness simply acts as a part of him.

He also exists above "the realm of common sense" of the world, to the point that even something like a Briah, which allows the users to crush common sense, can't truly damage him or interact with him. He is even stated to be "half a step above Ber'iah". Ber'iah, which can overwrite the current world for a limited amount of time.


In short:

He is a being that is connected with all of reality and exists at the highest level without being "God" (Hadou/Gudou God). And without him, all of reality will crumble and fall apart leaving nothing but emptiness. On top of that, not even something on a Ber'iah's level can fully interact with him, as he is half a step above them.

Going by the Conceptual Manipulation page, I believe he should qualify for a Type 2 concept.

2. False Platonic Concept: "Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts." These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.

The adjusted description is down below in the justification section.

Note about Nights​

The localization of Dies Irae - Interview with Kaziklu Bey when mentioning the nights within Methuselah gives a remark about how "not even millions of nights could withstand the direct, all-destroying power".

However, the original version in Japanese uses the Novemdecillions (那由多) of Methuselah's nights.

Since this is a Japanese work, the Japanese wording should take precedence in a similar vein to what is done with the Reinhard vs. Ren speed feat.

The note is in the justification section down below.

Methuselah's Tiering Justification​

This is Methuselah's current ratings:

Now, while this definition is mostly fine, my real problem with it stems from the, "likely far higher" part. Not that the statement is inaccurate, because it isn't. My problem is that there is no justification for this line of thinking whatsoever.

All the justification that is present proves that Methuselah's Jaws of Darkness are 5-A at least, but not the "likely far higher" part.

That's what I mean to update.

The logic behind Methuselah being, "likely far higher" is because of two things mainly. First, it was shown that Methuselah could take 500,000 nights from himself and actively separate them one-by-one to trap Machina. There is no logical reason that he couldn't just take this number of nights and attacks with them as one. Now, if that hypothetical possibility isn't enough for you, and that's fair, there is also the fact that Methuselah was interrupted by Wilhelm from using his "ace" attack Fortes Fortuna Adjuvant. Magna Voluisse Magnum, which would very clearly imply that this attack would be stronger than his Jaws of Darkness, and possibly even more powerful than Nihil Est Qui Nihil Amat, which is the attack used to trap Machina.

If you are still not fully convinced, that is fine, I was thinking that it would best to shift the rating from, "likely far higher" to, "possibly far higher" anyway, and I feel that this logic is sound enough to warrant a "possibly" rating.

I also slightly edited the description a bit, getting rid of what didn't need to be in there to justify the tiering.

"Worldly Order"​

What is this about a "Worldly Order"? Where does this come from and how does it relate to Methuselah? These might be questions that you might ask yourself.

Well, I'll give you the context of it all:

Both Beatrice and Eleonore attack Methuselah, Beatrice becomes overwhelmed by Methuselah's Jaws of Darkness and before she is killed, Machina appears and destroys the darkness. Methuselah immediately understands that unlike the other members of the L.D.O., Machina is a threat - that Machina can bring about the end, his end.

In an attempt to appease him from doing just that, he states:

"I can't imagine how the world would be if I were to vanish. What about you?", the text then goes on to say that if Machina's fists, "only pulverized the concept of 'personified nature', Ludwig (Methuselah) would simply lose his Arcane and return to mere darkness like the rest of his kin" and that, "Machina's fist would surely go beyond that".

The next scan continues on with this idea that while Methuselah is the personification of Darkness, he exists separate, but connected, to darkness itself as an aspect of nature. And to end that aspect of nature would surely bring a disastrous effect to the "worldly order". Machina doesn't care, stating that everything he can destroy with his fists will end one day anyway, so it doesn't matter.

In this third scan, it is stated that since the man is dead anyway, he wouldn't care about "creating the void". Since "all of creation" will eventually end, why should it inconvenience him if he brought that end now? It wouldn't. This is a similar description to what was stated about Methuselah's movements earlier in the novel, about how if wanted to, he could rip all the darkness with him, leaving an "emptiness", a lack of light and shadow, that would cause the world to crumble.

Now, while that is talking about the planet's darkness, the darkness that Methuselah personifies, the description of the "worldly order" is of a higher caliber - specifically stated to be beyond Methuselah's reign, and destroy the very existence of darkness itself - that since "all of creation" would return to nothingness eventually, it wouldn't matter if Machina brought about the "void" by ridding Darkness itself now.

And because of that danger to himself, Methuselah separated 500,000 nights from himself to trap and BFR Machina out of the fight so he couldn't hit him and both erase his arcane and damage the worldly order.


Now after taking that all in, you might be asking yourself, what does "all of creation" mean exactly?

"All of Creation"​

The thing is, we don't really know since it isn't specified in detail about what that means or how far the effect of "damaging the worldly order" would travel.

The safest bet would be to state that it is affecting the universe in totality, but it is very possible (and probable really) that by "all of creation", it is speaking about the totality of Mercurius's creation.


Now, how big is that creation exactly? Well, I'll tell you:

「すなわち、すでに神座にある己を知覚したからこそ、そこに至った。それまで単一時間、単一宇宙のみで構成されていた座の機構を、破壊し書き換えたのが彼である」

“In a word, he who was already in the Divine Throne perceives himself that way that he arrived there. The mechanism of the Throne that encompassed single time and single universe until now, it was he who destroyed and rewrote it.”

「現在過去未来の内包、多元的並行宇宙の同時掌握。それを成したこの男は、過去三代を上回る最大の支配領域を獲得した中興の祖と断言できる」

“The inclusion of the past, present and future and the simultaneous seizure of multitudes of parallel universes. This man who achieved it can only be affirmed as the progenitor of resurrection who acquired the largest dominant territory that exceeds the three previous generations.”

?背後に広がる大曼荼羅が、後光のごとく輝く阿頼耶識の卍となって、こいつこそが無限に存在する平行宇宙を掌握する者だと告げている。

"The great Mandala behind that spreads out, it became the Manji of Alaiyeshi/Eight Consciousness that shines like a halo, this fellow is what we are told to be the one who seizes all parallel universes that exist infinitely."


What these scans state, is that before Mercurius, there was only a single universe in creation, but after Mercurius took the Throne, he altered creation and created parallel universes.

It is stated later that these parallel universes are infinite in number.

This notion is further back up by a tweet from Masada himself, in which it states this:

数字にするとすっげえ陳腐ですが、メルの世界は一回帰で４～５万年。それを最低百回は繰り返してます。あと、座での奴のサイズですが、あれは全宇宙を覆った蛇のトグロを意味するイメージなので、巨大といえば果てしなく巨大です。無限の平行宇宙も含めた総軍がメル。なんだそりゃ。

"It's pretty old to use numbers, but Merc's World is 40,000 to 50,000 years old. At the least, it has repeated hundreds of times (百回). Also, regarding the size of the guy on the Throne (座), it is the image of a snake's body covering the entire universe so it's pretty huge. The general army of Merc's includes the infinite parallel universes."


So, now we have a better picture of the size of Mercurius' creation - it is an infinite multiverse.


But what does this mean for Methuselah's tiering then?

Personally, I feel Methuselah should get a separate rating that is based on his demise similar to SCP-682, since Methuselah's vanishing would lead to the destruction of the 'worldly order', to clarify, this would be Environmental Destruction, as the lack of night throughout creation causes creation to collapse in on itself creating a void. Personally, I believe the rating should straight up be 2-A, as I feel that is what "all of creation" means, but I would not be against adding both a low and high measure, the lowest measure being the universe, while the highest being the rest of Mercurius' creation, the infinite multiverse.


I feel like adding it to his description should work well enough.

New Tiering and Conceptual Level Justifications​

Methuselah:

Conclusion​

In this CRT, I feel that I have done four things:

  • Thoroughly explained what type of concept that Methuselah is, and that he should be a Type 2 Concept
  • Showcased the need for a note, and why one scan of Methuselah's is in Japanese instead of English
  • Gave better justifications to the, "likely far higher" segment of Methuselah's tier description, while also editing the existing description
  • And explained that if he should vanish, then Methuselah would take the very aspect of darkness with him, leaving a void in creation that would destroy all of it, and then proving Mercurius' creation is an infinite multiverse.
Note: Since common consensus has decided against scaling Meth's death to Machina, it has been removed from the CRT.

Votes​

Type of Concept Manipulation​

Replace Japanese Scans​

Revisions of Methuselah's Current Tier Description​

Additions to Methuselah Tiering​

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think everything but the tiering of Machina seems fine. It looks less like Machina is directing affecting all infinite parallel universes when using his attack more that just taking advantage of the nature of Meth's relationship with the current multiverse.
 
That's why it's Environmental Destruction.

Machina is directly erasing darkness, beyond just Meth personification - that's explicitly stated, but the aftereffect of messing with the worldly order causes all of creation to become a void.

Machina can cause this level of Environmental Destruction, so it should be noted on the profile.
 
Warren_Valion said:
That's why it's Environmental Destruction.

Machina is directly erasing darkness, beyond just Meth personification - that's explicitly stated, but the aftereffect of messing with the worldly order causes all of creation to become a void.

Machina can cause this level of Environmental Destruction, so it should be noted on the profile.
Click to expand...
But isn't that only because he's attacking Meth? Like with 682, anyone that kills them wouldn't qualify for Low 2-C environmental destruction, right?
 
Agree with everything but Machina too. Killing someome whose death leads to a 2-A feat is different from doing a 2-A feat.
 
Warren_Valion said:
Yeah, but that's why it has "Up to" before the tier.

As in, that's as high as it can go.
Click to expand...
But Machina isn't destroying the universe directly, he's just killing Meth who destroys the universe when they die. Machina by themselves can't attain this level of destruction without Meth or battling against someone else that destroys something of comparable to their size on death.

We don't put the likes of Sans on Low 2-C since they can kill Frisk who resets the universe when they die. I don't think it should be done here either.
 
Also, Due and Yuri said what I was trying to explain in discord, Machina can affect beings that cause that amount of destruction but he is not the one doing that directly, it is just a byproduct of yeeting Meth and only Meth, not something that can be done willy-nilly.
 
Duedate8898 said:
But Machina isn't destroying the universe directly, he's just killing Meth who destroys the universe when they die. Machina by themselves can't attain this level of destruction without Meth or battling against someone else that destroys something of comparable to their size on death.

We don't put the likes of Sans on Low 2-C since they can kill Frisk who resets the universe when they die. I don't think it should be done here either.
Click to expand...
Just’d like to note here: that’s a horrible example.
Unlike SCP-682 who was mentioned earlier, Frisks abilities don’t end the universe. Frisks abilities rewind time to a certain point, causing the timelines to ‘jump’ back and forth between the SAVE points, as Sans explains it. It’s not Environmental Destruction, it’d be the same as giving someone like DIO 2-C ED because they stop time itself or something. Even if it were, Sans does not ‘survive’ it, nor is he even immune to the effects.
However, you are right that we don’t give people 2-C ED for killing people who end the universe. However, it does sound like a good durability feat if they managed to live the effect, or potential 2-C ED if said effect can be achieved by destroying an Object they have access to, and therefore can be weaponized while bloodlusted or under a similar effect.
 
I agree with a lot of this but I could argue worldy order can also mean the entire part of merc's law which is high 1-A in nature considering all of creation is often used to describe the heaven's worlds and not a specific part. I feel like 2-A is the absolute minimum and high 1-A is likely with how it potrays that the entirety of merc's world will go dark (not destroy it but it will cause a massive affect on the world which goes in line with what ewigkeit really is and its potency). Just smth to think about imho
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
I agree with a lot of this but I could argue worldy order can also mean the entire part of merc's law which is high 1-A in nature considering all of creation is often used to describe the heaven's worlds and not a specific part. I feel like 2-A is the absolute minimum and high 1-A is likely with how it potrays that the entirety of merc's world will go dark (not destroy it but it will cause a massive affect on the world which goes in line with what ewigkeit really is and its potency). Just smth to think about imho
Click to expand...
I see where you are coming from, but I disagree.

It's specifically talking about Merc's Creation, not his law.

And that would imply that Merc's law is dependent on Meth, when the opposite is true - Meth is a dependent of "God".

While Meth and other characters in the world might have some possible High 1-A effects of some sort via scaling to Merc's passive law output - that doesn't mean the Worldly Order is referring to anything of the sort.


And while yes, I frankly think it should just be 2-A, I don't know if I can agree with the thought that 2-A should be the low-end to a High 1-A high-end.

At the most, I think that you could get rid of the Low 2-C, and then add a "possibly far higher" as a high-end, but even then, that might be a stretch.
 
Considering Merc world includes infinite past, present, and future; it'll be 2A either way. Unsure about scaling to Machina.
 
i can understand. I just felt its part of the structure regardless. I'm only suggesting because of how the word all of creation tends to include every part of a heaven's law afaik. But 2-A should be the low end as I see low 2-C is pointless due to the explicit infinite multiverse
 
The thing is, the 1-A to 1-A+ part would be the Singularity, which I don't think would be affected by the collapse of Darkness by Methuselah's death because of its nature, the High 1-A part of the Throne would be similarly unaffected. We also don't know of Higher Dimensions the Fourth Heaven contains. So as far as we know Methulseah's death would only affect the 2-A Multiverse of the Fourth Heaven at most.
 
Is this enough votes, I wonder?

Nearly ten including an administrator and a discussion moderator.

Who knows?
 
I pretty sure being a staff in joke battles wiki don't matter anymore in the new forum

As long as you are a staff, you have the same authority as others staff in vs battles wiki
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

William_Joee
Doraemon 2-B Attack Potency Upgrade
Replies
37
Views
1K
William_Joee
William_Joee
Lightning_XXI
  • Locked
DMC and Omnipresence revision
2 3
Replies
114
Views
8K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
TheUnshakableOne
  • Locked
Solidifying Manga Saint Seiya a 2-A Cosmology (Quick and easy)
2
Replies
69
Views
4K
TheUnshakableOne
TheUnshakableOne
Mizuki67
  • Locked
Simple Addition for Rimuru
Replies
4
Views
2K
Excellence616
Excellence616
RigelBR7
Black Hat Abstract Existence and Omnipresence
Replies
13
Views
852
RigelBR7
RigelBR7
Back
Top