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The First of Many to Come: Dies Irae Revisions - Adjusting Interview with Kaziklu Bey Reinhard's AP Justification

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Warren_Valion

Warren_Valion

VS Battles
Retired
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3,141

Introduction​


I am back mother *******, you miss me?

Anyways I brought a gift, another CRT by yours truly.

Frankly, looking through our Shinza profiles has left me in the CRT creating mood, and this one specifically is based in Reinhard's AP justification for his Interview key - it's disingenuous at best. And with this CRT, I plan on changing that.

Note: I need to thank Qliphoth Bacikal for his help in collecting the scans for me, and SleepyTBubble and EMS-TC02 Phantom for aiding in improving the justifications with me. Thank you, guys - you are all Hadou Gods of the highest caliber.

Note 2: This CRT is almost entirely ripped from my blog about the topic here.

Current Justification and Problems​


Reinhard's Current Justification:

"Attack Potency: At least Universe level (Far superior to the LDO, stronger than Wilhelm who destroyed the Jaws of Darkness. Casually one-shot Methuselah and destroyed all his mystery), High Outerverse level via hax and LLT (Gladsheimr is described as the law of the new world and a singularity that is detached from the World of Foreknowledge, as well as being described as being a power already on the Atzulith degree despite being a Briah. The Longinuslanze Testament is described as washing away the world of Foreknowledge, and like Reinhard, is the manifestation of Mercurius' desire to die), Can ignore durability in a variety of ways"

Now frankly, the general notion of this is fine, Reinhard is greater than every member of the L.D.O. barring Mercurius, that is so blatantly obvious that it hurts, but that is where my agreeance to the justification ends.

Everything else I have a problem with:

"High Outerverse level via hax and LLT"

And. . .

"Casually one-shot Methuselah and destroyed all his mystery"


I'll break down the problems with these statements one step at a time.

"High 1-A via Hax and LLT"​


There are a handful of problems I have with this, I'll go over the most simple one first.

The first thing is the description of a majority of the information is in Japanese instead of English, which should be changed and updated properly.

The second thing is the description itself, having, "High Outerverse level via hax" is poor nomenclature that is bound to confuse people as the description doesn't mention his other hax that Reinhard has being on that level, the only thing it mentions is Gladsheimr, and so having "High 1-A via hax" is disingenuous to what is actually written. Instead of it saying, "High Outerverse level via hax and LLT", it should be something along the line of, "High Outerverse level via Longinuslanze Testament and Gladsheimr."

And along with that line of thinking, comes my final problem, the justification for Gladsheimr and the Longinuslanze Testament. They are barebones at best, and acutely misconstruing lore about the Ancient Arcane and the way Briahs and Ahnenerbe work.

I'll quote EMS-TC02 Phantom's post which explains why the current justification is wrong:

"Reinhard destroying the last arcane that is Methuselah and bringing about the new world means nothing more than, from that point onward, there's no more remnant of Omega Ewigkeit's ancient era, which is what Methuselah was before he got ganked by Reinhard. Reinhard's last attack simply make darkness into what's essentially the scientific concept of lack of light, not this ancient god of darkness or the likes.

Not that destroying/discarding the old world and bring about a newer one is something special as, like what I've said above, the human populace already did this by being a race that keeps developing and Apostle did this through their Beri'ah achieve the exact same thing.

Can't seem to post images for some reason, so I'm just gonna link it here. This is how Beri'ah works, this is an elaboration on Hegemony type Beri'ah, while this is one for Transcendence.

Notice how literally every single one of them mentions how they work by discarding/destroying/superseding the laws of the old world and replace it with a new one?"

So as EMS explained, what we have for justifying the spear's ranking is inaccurate and thus proper justification for both the Longinuslanze Testament and Gladsheimr is needed and will be placed in the justification section below.

"Casually One-shot Methuselah"​


Now for the big one, the main problem comes with the fact that Reinhard one-shotted Methuselah by using the Longinuslanze Testament's light, light from a High 1-A object, NOT with his own physical strength (i.e. punching or kicking). I'll prove this by showcasing what exactly happened during that scene.

The context goes like this, Reinhard starts to fight Methuselah, brings out the spear, points the spear at Methuselah, and uses the light of the Longinuslanze Testament which blows Methuselah away with sheer all-destroying power of the spear, destroying Methuselah, the last remnant of the Ancient Arcane completely, and makes Darkness nothing more than a simple aspect of nature instead of a personified concept.

So the context clearly shows that Reinhard uses his spear's "sheer power" to blow Methuselah away and destroy his mystery, without affecting the "Worldly Order". So having it be used as justification for his own tiering that is separate from the tiering of the Longinuslanze Testament seems disingenuous, and thus I feel it should be changed.

Now you might ask yourself a few questions:

Is Methuselah stronger than Reinhard then?

Not exactly the case.

Here is a direct quote from Wilhelm about Reinhard's power in comparison to Methuselah. He says, "If Methuselah can only be broken by quality, quantity, and status, the only one among us capable was Lord Heydrich." This is a direct statement that compares the physical capabilities of Reinhard and Methuselah to one another.

What should Reinhard's AP justification be?

At the very least, the safest low-ball that should be given is that Reinhard should scale FAR beyond the Einherjar or Wilhelm who was capable of destroying Methuselah's Jaws of Darkness, Wilhelm straight up says that he is far beyond all of them. And on the high end, Reinhard should be comparable to Methuselah because of Wilhelm's statement directly comparing their strength.

The new justifications for everything will be in the section below.

New Justifications​


The new justifications would be:

Tl;DR/Conclusion​


I have made my case to prove four things:
  • Reinhard's justifications that are in Japanese, need to be replaced with English ones
  • The "High Outerverse level via Hax and LLT" needs to be replaced with "via throwing/unleashing the divine light of the Longinuslanze Testament and Gladsheimr" to match the description
  • The justifications of the Longinuslanze Testament and Gladsheimr are should be replaced with the ones I gave
  • And that the current justification for Reinhard needs to be changed to scale above Wilhelm at the least and scale to being Methuselah's equal according to a statement by Wilhelm, as the current description used is for the Longinuslanze Testament and not his own physical strength.

Votes​


Agree: 10 (Tyri456, Eganergo, Antvasima, Tony_di_bugalu, Zouken, CrimsonStarFallen, PsychoWarper, Infera28, SchroKatze, Ionliosite)

Disagree: 1 (EMS-TC02_Phantom)

Ambivalent: 3 (SleepyTBubble, Qliphoth_Bacikal, TISSG7Redgrave)


If you have any questions or are willing to point out any mistakes, feel free to ask and tell me respectively.


Thank you.
 
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Never really supported this

But i no longer care for this wiki nor do i wanna contribute to it any longer

Feel free to pass on my vote
 
I have another revision to work on for Shinza with Redgrave but after that I'm not gonna bother with the verse here any longer, nor am I going to bother with this one or any other.

I'm with the same with ALRF in this thread's regards.
 
it seems like we have like 11 agree with 2 abstaining. Is it enough to apply the changes?
 
Warren_Valion said:
Now for the big one, the main problem comes with the fact that Reinhard one-shotted Methuselah by using the Longinuslanze Testament's light, light from a High 1-A object, NOT with his own physical strength (i.e. punching or kicking). I'll prove this by showcasing what exactly happened during that scene.

The context goes like this, Reinhard starts to fight Methuselah, brings out the spear, points the spear at Methuselah, and uses the light of the Longinuslanze Testament which blows Methuselah away with sheer all-destroying power of the spear, destroying Methuselah, the last remnant of the Ancient Arcane completely, and makes Darkness nothing more than a simple aspect of nature instead of a personified concept.

So the context clearly shows that Reinhard uses his spear's "sheer power" to blow Methuselah away and destroy his mystery, without affecting the "Worldly Order". So having it be used as justification for his own tiering that is separate from the tiering of the Longinuslanze Testament seems disingenuous, and thus I feel it should be changed.
Click to expand...
This could only work if Reinhard's power and the lance is dissociated from one another and the Lance is a non-standard power up, which isn't really the case. Reinhard was able to plow through all of Methuselah's mysteries through sheer might is something that hes capable of doing simply because hes strong, not because he uses the Longinus. He can just punch or kick or even do the same exact Gladsheimr skelezilla beam that he did in their first confrontation and if the intention behind said attack was to crush Methuselah completely rather than testing the water, it would've done the same thing, especially considering that both the beam and the lance throw are the same exact 黄金の破壊光 move in the first place
 
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@TISSG7Redgrave

Probably, yes, although it would have been better if two of our experts on the subject did not seem so reluctant to the revision.
 
EMS-TC02_Phantom said:
This could only work if Reinhard's power and the lance is dissociated from one another and the Lance is a non-standard power up, which isn't really the case. Reinhard was able to plow through all of Methuselah's mysteries through sheer might is something that hes capable of doing simply because hes strong, not because he uses the Longinus. He can just punch or kick or even do the same exact Gladsheimr skelezilla beam that he did in their first confrontation and if the intention behind said attack was to crush Methuselah completely rather than testing the water, it would've done the same thing, especially considering that both the beam and the lance throw are the same exact 黄金の破壊光 move in the first place
Click to expand...
But there is a difference between what the Lance can do, and what Reinhard can do on his own.

Reinhard's fists aren't all-ending, always faster than his opponent, home-ins on the opponent, negates distance, or can affect/interact and harm High 1-A beings. The Spear can.

There is clearly a difference in power between utilizing the light of the spear/throwing it, and just punching or hitting people with the spear.


And there is no proof that Reinhard is even capable of interacting with Meth when he is not using his spear (which is specifically stated that the tip of the lance can pierce all foes no matter what rules they have imposed onto the universe), so I don't get where you are coming from here in that he can just punch him and do the same thing.
 
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Tyri456:

Okay. This is probably not very controversial to apply then.
 
Well at the behest of EMC, i shall post just once here

there seems to be this thought process of Lanze power =/= Reinhard, which is what exactly i am against. All feats of LLT are directly tied to Reinhard himself and saying that the feats can't be replicated by Reinhard physically

Besides, let's not forget that Ewigkeit is a form of symbiotic link between the Relic and the Apostle, merging them together.

Moreover, in Kei route, Reinhard got weakened by Schrezo and we see the side-effects in the form of a weakened LLT. That wouldn't be the case if we go by the arguments that Reinhard stats =/= Lanze stats

Warren_Valion said:
Reinhard's fists aren't all-ending, always faster than his opponent, home-ins on the opponent, negates distance, or can affect/interact and harm High 1-A beings. The Spear can.
Click to expand...
Hot take. He can all-end, never miss and be faster than you with his fist (and no i am not joking). Simply because he can use other cravings because of Gladsheimr, spear means shit

Anyway, i'll boot off

And please wait for EMC, he's currently going through some issues irl so he'll be out until tomorrow night at least (for him that is) or something like that

Bai bai
 
SleepyTBubble said:
there seems to be this thought process of Lanze power =/= Reinhard, which is what exactly i am against. All feats of LLT are directly tied to Reinhard himself and saying that the feats can't be replicated by Reinhard physically

Besides, let's not forget that Ewigkeit is a form of symbiotic link between the Relic and the Apostle, merging them together.

Moreover, in Kei route, Reinhard got weakened by Schrezo and we see the side-effects in the form of a weakened LLT. That wouldn't be the case if we go by the arguments that Reinhard stats =/= Lanze stats


Hot take. He can all-end, never miss and be faster than you with his fist (and no i am not joking). Simply because he can use other cravings because of Gladsheimr, spear means shit

Anyway, i'll boot off

And please wait for EMC, he's currently going through some issues irl so he'll be out until tomorrow night at least (for him that is) or something like that

Bai bai
Click to expand...
Just because the spear is connected to Reinhard, doesn't mean that Reinhard possesses its abilities innately or that their power (when throwing it or utilizing its divine light) is equivalent. There are plenty of feats of the LLT doing something that Reinhard cannot do himself and there is a reason as to why we separate the LLT from Reinhard himself on the profile currently.

Namely, not needing to activate the powers of his legion to be all-ending, faster than his opponent, etc - it's an innate part of the spear's existence.

Also, no Ewigkeit user can use their special abilities without summoning and attacking with their Ahnenerbe. Wilhelm doesn't drain people from just touching them for instance, he needs the Blood of Vlad Tepes to touch someone to do that.

And what are you talking about? Reinhard and the LLT's powers were weakened from being restricted by the Swastika, not because of Scherzo. As soon as he showed up in the Church, the first thing he did was throw his spear at Kei and Ren grabbed her and jumped out of the way, dodging it, and this was waaaaay before Ren got Scherzo.

You also conveniently forgot to mention the part that I mentioned in which the spear can affect any being in the verse and harm/interact with High 1-A beings. Something that Reinhard can't do himself, without it.

To insinuate that the Spear's all-destroying power is equivalent to Reinhard's is to state that Base Reinhard's physical might is High 1-A, which is preposterous. That is what you are suggesting.
 
I do remember that rein was also having problems too when schrezo was activated to as his entire briah was collapsing as well. Idk what else to add just gonna add the next Shizna CRT spot is mine. It's not DI it's PL but well...same verse so gonna wait rip

Edit: I think I'll go back to neutral. EMS and Alrfy have a point that LLT while its his relic is a reflection of rein's strength and thus his strength isn't separate from what he can do without the spear. Also I believe the symbotic link alrfy is talking about is here
 
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I mean Reinhard doesnt have irrelevant speed nor H1A EE without the spear so... like I know they are connected but I feel like its more a reflection of his soul than what he can physically do.

The Spear has far more impressive feats theb Rein physically.
 
Only way for destroying Methuselah was sheer might but sheer might can be interpreted as Reinhard's full power through spear or spear's might too. because spear is his strongest weapon (highest might).

tbh it constantly stated and hinted Methuselah is a match for Reinhard. It stated Methuselah's magic might be a match for Karl Kraft who is Reinhard's equal. It stated he and Methuselah are equals and it was supported by Reinhard calling himself and Methuselah the supreme arcane. basically putting themselves in same league. there might be more evidence too.

Defeating your match through punching or kicking him and not going all out and using LLT doesn't make sense to me. If Reinhard truly is that much stronger than Methuselah then defeating him wasn't enjoyable for Reinhard at all and there wasn't any need for using Gladsheim, Sending entire of army, Obsidian Demons, Boosting Wilhelm and consulting with Karl about best methods for defeating Methuselah. Reinhard only could crush him like a insect and not getting amused. Methuselah also wasn't scared of Reinhard at all.

LLT also always was threatened as God Killer and weapon of Gods. We have enough hints and evidence for assuming that LLT is far stronger than Reinhard himself. Wilhelm also was shocked because Methuselah was still alive after taking a direct hit from Reinhard's HOLY LANCE . he specifically mentioned lance too. implying Lance >>> Reinhard and attack was coming from lance not Reinhard's own power. As PsychoWarper mentioned lance has far more impressive feats and statements than Reinhard physically too.

So in my opinion something such as Planetary likely universal is far better than straight up giving universal AP to Reinhard and saying he can one tap his biggest amusement Methuselah.
 
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Like Rein being equal to the spear kinda implies that he is Physically H1A with all of LLTs hax on that level plus Irrelevant speed, which for Reins first few keys he is not.
 
That also is like saying Ren physically is H1A because of his holy relic containing Marie and Ren is capable of beheading people through touching them with his hands too.
 
So have you reached any conclusions here yet?
 
i think atm we are arguing on whether rein's stats should be separate from his relic which EMS and alrfy said no they aren't separate due to the symbiotic relation the wielder and relic have with one another. I just went back to neutral because i'm not sure 100%
 
Okay.

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
i think atm we are arguing on whether rein's stats should be separate from his relic which EMS and alrfy said no they aren't separate due to the symbiotic relation the wielder and relic have with one another. I just went back to neutral because i'm not sure 100%
Click to expand...
So switch you to ambivalent, right?
 
Both sides have good arguments and Warren's proposal takes this into consideration with the tier, imo it's the best solution to the dilemma.
 
Reinhard's fists aren't all-ending, always faster than his opponent, home-ins on the opponent, negates distance, or can affect/interact and harm High 1-A beings. The Spear can.

There is clearly a difference in power between utilizing the light of the spear/throwing it, and just punching or hitting people with the spear.
Click to expand...
Only real differences between the two if you list them all down are that the lance can mark someone with a Stigmata and the ignoring distance bit. And considering what Rindou can do after Fuji, it's only the stigmata that's a real difference. Even then it's pretty superficial considering Ewigkeit by default already claim souls from someone you slay. And as Alf said, those properties are something that he has by virtue of Gladsheimr making them a literal part of himself as much as your cell is a part of your body.

The part about interacting with tier 1 stuff is a function that a Godslayer has, of which Reinhard is naturally one, to a much higher degree than the lance and the Prague homonculus too for that matter.
And there is no proof that Reinhard is even capable of interacting with Meth when he is not using his spear (which is specifically stated that the tip of the lance can pierce all foes no matter what rules they have imposed onto the universe), so I don't get where you are coming from here in that he can just punch him and do the same thing.
Click to expand...
Anyone with Beri'ah activated can do this. The whole point of Beri'ah is forcing your nonsensical common sense/logic upon others beside yourself so that they'll conform to your set definitions despite what might happen prior to that; this is something that my scans already said which is also in your OP to begin with. At that point it only became a question whether you have enough juice to do something significant to him or not (compability matters too i guess) as clashing your common sense against him is basically clashing your common sense against the entirety of humanity's definition of darkness up until the point of Methuselah's demise, and that's still without accounting the shitton amount of nights that he has stacked over the years. That's precisely why only Reinhard was capable of beating Methuselah through way of power and not logic like Wilhelm had to resort to.
And what are you talking about? Reinhard and the LLT's powers were weakened from being restricted by the Swastika, not because of Scherzo. As soon as he showed up in the Church, the first thing he did was throw his spear at Kei and Ren grabbed her and jumped out of the way, dodging it, and this was waaaaay before Ren got Scherzo.
Click to expand...
He got the cause mixed up, but that's still a point against Reinhard=/=Lance notion. Ougon Rensei and Swastika are mechanisms solely dedicated to Reinhard's being and by extension, Gladsheimr, only. If the lance is truly separate then it wouldn't be weakened by an incomplete set of opened Swastikas. What Rindou inherited at ruin of Valhalla under Fuji and what she did with it only further reinforces this.
You also conveniently forgot to mention the part that I mentioned in which the spear can affect any being in the verse and harm/interact with High 1-A beings. Something that Reinhard can't do himself, without it.

To insinuate that the Spear's all-destroying power is equivalent to Reinhard's is to state that Base Reinhard's physical might is High 1-A, which is preposterous. That is what you are suggesting.
Click to expand...
Those are basic functions that a Godslayer can do, something i already said above. And really you don't want to go with that line of arguments because it's actually you who would actually insinuates that Reinhard is entirely tier 1 prior to Godhood, by that point you'd be just shooting yourself in the foot.

Apoptosis is a natural born Godslayer, their entire being is tailored around that very purpose. Their "would kill god" doesn't merely entail the course of action that they would take but also their craving and functions/capabilities. Far as Omega Ewigkeit is concerned, there's 3 known things with Godslayer attributes and amongst those 3, Reinhard's the only one you could call Snake's Apoptosis. Whenever there's a comparison, either direct or indirect, made between them, it's the two things that got compared to Reinhard and not the other way around. Whatever your reasoning to say that the lance is a tier 1 stuff might be, it would applies to Reinhard even harder than it would for the Longinus itself.
godslay.png


オペレーション・エンスラポイドが行われた日、ラインハルトに宛てがわれた怪異は城型の巨大なホムンクルスで、極限的な魂喰らいである。これは五百年前、メルクリウスが自死を夢見た時に作り上げたもの。自滅のためだけに生まれたものでメルクリウスの裏面を具現化したもの。帯びている概念は破壊の愛。つまりはラインハルトと同じ物、過去の同種である。

That's the exact same thing as what the lance is. You could even call it a Proto-Reinhard with a built-in Longinus with your preferences to treat the lance and the man as different/separate things. By your arguments for the lance, this homunculus would also be tier 1 due to what being applicable to the lance is also fully applicable to it. This thing got clapped by Reinhard even before the plot of IkaBey started. By that logic Reinhard is already tier 1 even before IkaBey basically because of the arguments you presented for the lance.

The belief that the lance is a tier 1 object in all its aspects in itself is pretty problematic due to stuff like this. It might has some aspects that are indeed on the level of tier 1, every Godslayer stuff do in fact (a bunch of other ***** in Shinza Banshou, really), but stating that it's tier 1 in its entirety is pretty flawed and misleading. It'll only lead to a dumb and circular scaling that'd make Reinhard a tier 1 character character even before IkaBey and anyone whos around his level to be the same even prior to Godhood for all parties involved.

And really, both me and Alf already said to you that if any of the haxxier aspects that usually got associated to Longinus currently actually interacted with Methuselah in any sort of meaningful way, the consequences of what Reinhard did would also go beyond "reducing an ancient god embodying a certain aspect of nature" and just erases Methuselah as the concept of darkness outright, because by that point you're no longer just assclapping his mysteries away through sheer power, but you're also assclapping him in his entirety through several layers of hax bullshit.

I mean Reinhard doesnt have irrelevant speed nor H1A EE without the spear so... like I know they are connected but I feel like its more a reflection of his soul than what he can physically do.
Click to expand...
I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics people did to even reach this conclusion without even seeing the obvious errors with it. What justifications that are used for its "speed" are either applicable to Reinhard more so than it would the lance or terribly misled/missing the context. Any clauses about how it's purposed to kill Snake are applicable to both Reinhard and Prague homunculus (which is something that Reinhard also clapped way before the first Ougon Rensei even). Reinhard forcibly dragged Marie away from Ren and pulls her into Gladsheimr as far back as the common route. What Rindou did in Mugen Ezo is attributed to whatever remnants of Reinhard's power is left that Rindou inherited back in ruin of Valhalla under Fuji, not the lance. By that point the lance was merely a wrecked weapon in Fuji.

Its justification for existence erasure is something that's applicable to literally everyone that manages to reach Beri'ah degree. It's something that's even said in my scans that are also in the OP.
 
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