Small Dies Irae Revisions: I see says the blind man

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Ok random title is there to curse my memory but I would like to credit @Infera28 for kinda jogging my memory

Now why are we here? Well I'm proposing High-Godly for einherjar and anyone who is part of reinhard's legion. That's cuz they always fight each other at full power which means machina's fist is on the table. And we can see here wolfgang regenerated his leg despite touching machina's fist and it didn't end the LDO as he managed to keep going which last i check even touching his fist is one way ticket to hell.

There was also the fact that Reinhard in Pantheon Prologue compared Frederica regenerative capabilities to his legion which indicates there is also regeneration involved with glad's boon.

豪壮かつ豪奢な殿堂。生と呼ばれる一切が駆逐され、あるのは静寂と停滞と冷気と暗さ。

This roughly notes how glads has everything called "life" eradicated within its bounds. Take it what you will but it can note how the castle works.

But yeah big Tl;dr anyone who's an eiherjar or are within glads should get high-godly as they can reform and regen from stuff like machina's fist like with wolfie and the fact for 60 boring years the commanders and eiherjar slaughter each other at full power all the damn time getting hit left and right.

This feels like an advertisement to join LDO: Join our army of the dead you can never die and the only thing you have to do is die in a skeletal castle of hell.

Yes: 4-5 i guess

No:

 

[Shyouu]

Yes

 

[Shmooply]

Doesn't seem too controversial. I agree.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Wish there was more statements and feats of this regeneration thing...

The only other possible form of evidence you can give for High Godly Regen for the Einherjars (Normal souls, Souls of Waffen SS, Commanders, etc.) would be this.

The narration after Reinhard talks some bits about Glads is how those who die in it and become Einherjar are granted immortality in the form of "revival and reassembling without limit". This part is covered by the first few words of "Reanimation", "Revival", "Reformation".

This type of immortality looks similar to another character who did this after getting his whole body blasted to nothing. Here it uses two similar words for the process as "revived" and "reformed" which I believe the Einherjar do the same via Glads. They revive and reassemble (which could be another way of saying reformation) without limit. Hence the parts where Glads is always described as a hell of infinite resurrections.

IDK if this is even enough or not but if you take it from this here, you could argue for High Godly regeneration here. It could be argued that resurrection covers this but IDK? I'm fine with whatever this comes up with.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Ill say this much I know Alfy seemed to believe it should be regen.

Anyway if they are shown to regen from Machina’s Fist then yeah they qualify for High-Godly regen.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Seems good

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

If/When the Avesta profiles ever get posted up, this definitely will affect Fredrica's immortality as her's is stated to be the greatest amongst all non-Gods of all the era's.

This ofc assuming we get the Einherjar to have High Godly regeneration here. Just bringing this up (edit: cuz it popped into my head)

 

[PsychoWarper]

Yep, on Frederica’s blog by EMS you could probably mention that it this gets accepted.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

敵にダメージを与えられたのは別要因ではあるが、対等に戦えるだけの強化がもたらされた。 具体的には、ラインハルトの総軍から際限ない魂の補給を受けられるようになる。 聖遺物の使徒は、強い攻撃を行うほど魂を消費し、再生にも魂を消費する。 つまり許容限界量の魂をたった一発の攻撃で消費しながら、どれだけ負傷しようと瞬時に治癒できるようになる。

From atwiki about eiherjar it is noted that due to eiherjar having an endless supply of souls they can attack and use all their soul stock while also healing.
The more souls the relic apostle consumes, and the more souls it consumes for regeneration. In other words, they will be able to heal instantly no matter how much they are injured while consuming the maximum allowable amount of souls with just one attack.

This seems to hit home that eiherjar and those connected to glads have regeneration so some extra evidence

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@PsychoWarper I'm pretty sure EMS will know about this one way or another so it'll be on there when/if they do post the Avesta profiles (after the novel is done and all, ofc).

@TISSG7Redgrave Yeah like I mention on Discord, this is something Wilhelm describes and demonstrates in his fight with Methuselah in Interview. Basically in that Reinhard, after blessing Wilhelm with his soul stock for just that one battle alone, allows any and all wounds he suffers to be instantly healed while allowing him to dish out his attacks at their most strongest by also using it all up for every one of his attacks he dishes out, which also puts his offense and defense on a whole different level than what he's normally at. This is helped further by the fact that Wil is being refilled continuously by the souls of Glads which are all of high-quality Einherjar that infinitely regenerate and resurrect.

This ofc would be a trait that all of the Beast's Einherjar, Commanders especially with their much bigger soul stock than Wil's, all have and can do as part of Gladhsimeir.

 

[Antvasima]

What Qliphoth has accepted can probably be applied.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Since this is in the Masada discord, I am going to put in a give my quick thoughts cause this still bothers me.

I disagree.

Regenerating from having your concept erased only qualifies for High-Godly when your entire body is erased (along with everything else), not just your leg, IIRC.

Glads "eradicates" life isn't proof of anything other than it being a Ber'iah constructed from the flesh and souls of the dead, which it is.

And the Einherjar surviving their fights with one another is because of Glad's Resurrection bringing them back instantly under the guise of Mercurius, not indicative of any type of regeneration. Einherjar letting loose their entire soul stocks in every hit they do and regening afterward doesn't prove they are regening from Machina's erasure. The best that would be is probably a Mid-Godly feat since they are regening their souls and bodies from nothing since they expend them all at once, I think. But that is not proof for High-Godly.

As for that other scan. Reformation is just bringing back one's shape to its former self. It could mean anything, either regen or resurrection, and it is dependent on the context, and the context of those scans is that souls that "fall" are "resurrected", not regeneration.

Also, logically, it doesn't make any sense to say that the characters are regening from High Godly Erasure (Machina's Ber'iah), but said erasure is also what kills them, allowing them to be resurrected by Merc. That logic is contradicted.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I thought u where leaving ovo

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

the thing is wolfie would have been erased and last i checked touching machina's fist is basically u are ded.exe but his regen was potent enough to make it come back.

They fought at full power for these 60 years without much pause really so it would be silly to only assume its ressurection and knowing merc isn't always there in glads no? (unless someone can point out he is). And i don't think the atwiki page would just mention it's regenerative prowess because ewigkeit already regens the soul.

There was also the fact they regen from Meth's time speed up as no one died at all. Again Glads should give a better regen to those who have been connected to it or are eiherjars and i kinda doubt anyone would have dodged machina's MVS all the time. THere's also QB's scans which help hit home what are glads's benefits are

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@TISSG7Redgrave TBF, I did only say that that scan was the only other one which you could try and argue for regeneration and not just resurrection lol.

It could or could not, hence why I said IDK if it's enough and whether it's acceptable enough.

What I do agree is that Glads is consistently referred to as a "Hell of Infinite Resurrections" where all the souls of Reinhard, from civilians to soldiers to even the L.D.O like his Commanders, constantly destroy each other only to revive back as per the way his "World" works as endless Ragnarok.

There is one other that talks about the whole process of Glads immortality for the Einherjar, which also could have been what ALRF believes gives them High Godly regeneration?

ここに滅の概念は存在せず、何者であれ無限に蘇り、何者であれ呑み込み続ける。まさに、彼の渇望と破壊のルーンが、矛盾でありながらも合致している。“破壊し続けるための不変”と言えよう。
通常、創造位階によって創られた異世界は時間経過により消滅するが、ベルリン崩壊時に行った聖櫃創造により、この城は決して自然消滅することがない。ラインハルトの肉体である聖餐杯にパスで繋がった状態のまま永久に固定されている。
もはや流出の一歩手前にある究極の創造。
これはラインハルト、メルクリウス、初代ゾーネンキントの三者による合作であり、城内における死者の無限再生は彼ら全員が行える。
もっとも、その再生速度や再現精度、不死創造という黄金錬成の巧拙には個人差があり、それはメルクリウス、ゾーネンキント、ラインハルトの順である。

Honestly prefer a scan of this cuz I tried looking for this everywhere...

Anyways Context above: Glads is a place where the concept of death does not exist there. Anyone who dies in it don't see true death, only swallowed up to be part of it (thus part of Reinhard) to fight as an infinitely resurrecting Einherjar. This one we know even through just the Visual Novel alone, but it adds more stuff relating to Rein, Merc, and Issac even as the three are all capable of infinitely resurrecting the dead of Glads, with Mercurius being the first followed by Issac and then Reinhard himself in terms of regenerating speed and recovery of the souls.

Although if you look at this, it would more support the immortality Einherjar gets from Glads by constantly resurrecting than regenerating. Although I do believe in some part they could get regeneration, but either that's from their own regen or Glads does it for them by letting them regen ala Wilhelm style (assuming whatever they get hit with "doesn't kill them" if you get what I mean).

 

[PsychoWarper]

Glads is a place where the concept of death does not exist there. Anyone who dies in it don't see true death

Would this not qualify them for Type 5 with Glad as well?

From how its looking Glad may give Types 3, 4 and 5 with the 3 being like Mid-Godly while the 4 is High-Godly.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@PsychoWarper I guess?

The VN alone already tells you that Reinhard's Einherjar constantly resurrect. Even in Kei and Marie's route, we have something like Einherjar being stated to not know the concept of death because of their connection to Glads (and thus, again, Reinhard), and something about how even if you COULD kill an Einherjar, they just won't stay permanently dead...if I remember it right.

It's a little odd to explain it but that's how I still remember how Glads immortality works for its souls.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Hmm its just weird, cause iirc not having the concept of death or having true death I think qualifies for type 5.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

All I remember is that they, the Einherjar, don't have a concept of death. Although this could be taken metaphorically by referring to the fact that being bound to Reinhard and Glads makes them unable to truly die cuz they'll always regenerate and resurrect endlessly no matter what happens to them, even if they're hit by something as powerful as Machina's MVS.

You could kill them outside Glads, it'll just send them right back to Glads. Killing them inside Glads, they won't be dead for long if you even manage to do such a thing.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Just saying it shouldn't just be resurrection but also regen. I'm noting that with how these eiherjars are and that machina's MVS would be active as they are not holding back in the gaunlet as they kept fighting and hitting each other with everything they got after all and that had wolfie's regen not be potent enough he would have been erase there and then.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Maybe a “possibly Type 5”?

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

OHOHOOHOHOHOOHOHOHOOHOHOHOHOOHOHOHJOOHOHOHOHOOHOHOHOHOHJOOOOOOOO

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

......

@PsychoWarper That works too.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@PsychoWarper

I am, but the Dies Irae profiles are my babies, I worked on them for months and I think they should be handled with a certain level of care before I leave completely, and as I said, the CRT is right there in our Masada Discord Server

the thing is wolfie would have been erased and last i checked touching machina's fist is basically u are ded.exe but his regen was potent enough to make it come back.

They fought at full power for these 60 years without much pause really so it would be silly to only assume its ressurection and knowing merc isn't always there in glads no? (unless someone can point out he is). And i don't think the atwiki page would just mention it's regenerative prowess because ewigkeit already regens the soul.

There was also the fact they regen from Meth's time speed up as no one died at all. Again Glads should give a better regen to those who have been connected to it or are eiherjars and i kinda doubt anyone would have dodged machina's MVS all the time. THere's also QB's scans which help hit home what are glads's benefits are

I genuinely don't know why or how Machina only erased Wolfgang's leg, maybe Machina only focused on erasing Wolfgang's leg or maybe it's a small mistake in the 100+ hour novel with dozens of characters, who knows? But what I do know is that is what was said to be erased, and that was what was said to be regenerated from, and that's just the leg, which isn't High-Godly. Saying otherwise is facetious.

And again, think about the logic, how could they regenerate from Machina's erasure, but also at the same time, die and be resurrected from it? It doesn't make sense.


This argument is nonsense. Mercurius has the ability to instantly reassemble souls, the Einherjar fighting one another and coming back constantly doesn't prove it's done by regeneration and not resurrection.

I do agree that Glads does give greater levels of regeneration, however, there is no proof that is High-Godly, and frankly, it is illogical to think so. I think logically, Mid-Godly regen makes more sense when you combine the fact that Wilhelm, and the Einherjar, constantly expunge all the souls in their soul stock in their attacks, and then regenerate those souls and themselves. And, the entire L.D.O. was able to regenerate from having their bodies and souls reduced to nothing by Meth's Time Accereltion, which despite them reforming, they weren't considered to have joined the ranks of Valhalla at the time despite the fact that falling within Glads boundaries does just that.

I always thought this was a massive plot hole, but Glads bestowing the characters Mid-Godly regen, meaning they came back from Meth's time stuff without really "falling", makes a lot of sense and fixes what I thought was a plot hole.

On this topic of possibly Type 5, I am neutral but leaning towards disagreeing. Einherjar don't have true death because they are resurrected. Not to mention that all consumed by Reinhard are dead, and it is because of that, Ren was able to kill Machina, by rejecting his concept of death. And I am pretty sure you can't be transcendent of death and be undead at the same time, so if one of them has to go, I think not having Type 5 makes more sense. But I don't care much.

Also, Glads bestows Type 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, and 8 Immortality, it is kinda insane. Hell of Infinite Resurrections is an apt name. They don't ******* die.


Anyway, as my last post on the topic and on the wiki, I promote this to be done.

Glads imposes on everyone Mid-Godly regen, and only the Einherjar get Type 4 Immortality (On a High-Godly level). So every L.D.O. member needs to have their pages updated with the switch from Type 4 Immortality to "Mid Godly regen in Glads" like the old days (But with a description that has scans this time, please. I will help make it if needed).

What should not be done is upgrading their regen to High-Godly for the logical reasons that I have stated.

As for type 5, you can do what you want, but I want scans and descriptions, link the atwiki page if needed, if you go that route.


And with that, I am done on the wiki.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Now we can remake this and just not share it to the discord ovo

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I'm pretty sure he wasn't focused on anything other than fighting ren and I don't remember machina even capable of localizing MVS to a specific part like...at all. Where was it stated he was even able to localize it there cuz again last i check touching those fists = getting erased.

I don't know on the other types feels way too eh on that.

I can be willing for mid possibly high cuz again saying machina only intended to erase the legs is like saying he was holding back when the narration noted they would start ripping each other if the other can't keep up. Wolfie despite being crazed wouldn't jump into death's jaws without knowing he can come back to continue the fight. Unless we claim getting hit by machina and surviving is mid only then yeah...

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

**** yeah~

 

[Antvasima]

Warren seems to make sense to me. Are the rest of you fine with his evaluations?

 

[Infera28]

I have agreement with type 5 immortality or at least "possibly" type 5. It multiple times stated Einherjar and Gladhseim transcended death

Not to mention that all consumed by Reinhard are dead, and it is because of that, Ren was able to kill Machina, by rejecting his concept of death.

Eleonore was consumed without death

the aura of their death and suffering still lingering about them

Gladsheim consumed them after their death. That's why aura of their death (not dead bodies) still was around. They weren't stayed dead in Gladsheim. Actually that's against the very premise of the Gladsheim.

It stated Ren and Reinhard denied concept of death in different ways. So both of them already were beyond death as a concept. Ren's briah was some beyond conceptual fuckery. Shattering Machina's core was destroying his soul and then Machina similar to some entity not something alive vanished. It wasn't conventional death but more likely destruction or existence erasure.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Just to add even if we don't really use machina springboarding wolfie we have to note that these guys fought for 60 years in a drama CD alrfy mentioned (idk which one rip) and merc wasn't there to constantly ressurect them last i checked. And remind me but with the swastikas restricting rein then he can't simply ressurect the commanders instantly if they "die" no? (If anything kei's route shows even 7 swastikas rein needs merc to do it instantly). Just saying that high-godly is very possible if the commanders and other eiherjars were just fighting at full power without much pause and I don't think Machina would just constantly miss his fellow commanders given he's very skilled to hit enemies close to his level.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Like I talked to Red on this on Discord, I don't ever recall Merc ever being there constantly to help Reinhard resurrect his Einherjar all the time (he could have just conversed with Reinhard from time to time whenever, and most likely spent his time creating Ren and simping for Marie). They also don't need to have him as the text I last posted shows that Issac and Reinhard can do it themselves with the former being the best after Merc when it comes to resurrecting the Einherjar from their constant Ragnarok style fights.

@TISSG7Redgrave Yeah even while inside Glads, Reinhard (and likely Issac too) couldn't immediately res Eleonore and Machina after their respective defeats from Ren and Beatrice, which is why Reinhard asked (demanded more like) Merc to regenerate and resurrect them immediately to get the ritual in Suwahara completed.

 

[Infera28]

I have agreement with high-goly regeneration FRA

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

bumping this cuz idk if we need more input. Warren disagrees and only wants mid-godly while the rest seem fine with high. More input would help cuz idk what else to do rip

 

[Antvasima]

Well, maybe we should go with the safer option? Warren is usually very reliable.

Otherwise, we could maybe use "At least Mid-Godly".

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

My best compromise is at least mid-godly, possibly/likely high-godly (with the reasons for both as written) doe idk. I just feel like with what we have mid-godly is there but high-godly is very possible as we have one showing plus very high implications on how the eiherjar fought for 60 years

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If Qliphoth agrees with you and Warren disagrees, it seems safest to go with "At least Mid-Godly, likely High-Godly", but I am not a good person to ask. Who else that are knowledgeable can we call here?

 

[Antvasima]

@SleepyTBubble

Would you be willing to help us out here please?

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

At least Mid-Godly, possibly/likely High Godly can work well enough for me as a middle ground.

 

[PsychoWarper]

At least Mid-Godly, possibly/likely High Godly can work well enough for me as a middle ground.

This

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

One last possible way for High Godly is Schreiber describing how Rubedo (Eleonore) vs Nigredo (Machina/Goetz) would turn out.

Short version of context: He talks about how Mercurius(?) described Reinhard's Commanders as like rock-paper-scissors based on their unique characteristics and traits (i.e. Machina killing in one hit, Eleonore never missing any shots, and Schreiber himself never getting hit). For the above, he mentions how it's a battle of attrition between how long Eleonore can keep up shooting Machina until he finally burns down to death or how much Machina can endure until he caves the former's face in with his all ending punches.

Maybe it is regeneration since we have plenty of mentions from the Commanders amongst themselves as having fought each other and all other Einherjar for 60+ years. Maybe it's resurrection again because they won't stay dead in that place. Or both given the nature of Glads constantly resurrecting and regenerating them over and over, which is a point because of how Reinhard's World works and made to be.

Aside this, the middle ground for at least Mid-Godly, possibly/likely High Godly would seem like the best choice to satisfy both sides...I think. Will wait for others thoughts on all of this.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I believe the best middle ground is at least mid-godly likely high-godly for mid mention meth's time accel regen with the high mention how eiherjar's would likely regen from machina's fist due to constantly fighting for the past 60+ years and maybe add wolfie's springboard for the feat idk