"Skipping? Stopping? man idek anymore" Hit time skip re-revision

[ArcaneAbyss]

exept that what he "resisted" in that arc was the Time Travel one, not the Stop

I am not talking about the U6 arc Goku, but the one in their rematch, who is unaffected by the timeskip used in U6 at all

If we accept as Immeasurable speed, ee can't give the resistance as it would allow him to resist time stop by default

That's a vsbattle logic and even then, it's not all encompassing, the DBS author does not use your logic when writing his characters, whether Goku has immeasurable speed or not, if its accepted that he has, it simply means hits time stop works on immeasurable beings (which ironically it does I'm dbh) BECAUSE Goku was frozen AFTER his immeasurable feat, post U6 Goku being unaffected by timeskip has no bearing on whatever happened before that

it quite litterally does since both Time Stop and Time Travel are the same ability, the only way for him to resist both + all else the Time Skip apparently does is Immeasurable speed, else he would still be affected by it no matter what

And Goku is unaffected by the technique itself later on, meaning he gets time stop resistance and should likewise get possible immeasurable speed for the time travel, which again, the wiki doesn't accept and calls outlier......either way, his time stop resistance is

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Ok, you're still ignoring the rest though.

I don't have anything to say about the rest, I'm just correcting you on the one thing I disagree.
It can't be truly time travel because there is an in-between period where Hit can interact with Goku before time passes, which is non-sense if he was just time travelling.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Let's just follow the manga way and just null the Resistance due to the anime also hinting to Whis' statement in manga

I don't have anything to say about the rest, I'm just correcting you on the one thing I disagree.
It can't be truly time travel because there is an in-between period where Hit can interact with Goku before time passes, which is non-sense if he was just time travelling.

I meant that Goku's brute forcing himself in Hit's dimension is kinda time travel in a way kek.

 

[Golden_Void]

This verse is cooked lol.

 

[Omegabronic]

Time is "stopped" in his PERSPECTIVE. He does appear 0.1 and 0.5s after he stopped time in their POV respectively. Goku is shown to be frozen in most cases, and only moves when his power surpasses Hit with Kaioken x10, but even that gets surpassed with a more extended Time Skip. Time actually passes, but everyone is frozen for him.

See the first part of the OP, he does Move, clearly so, multiple Time before he uses the Kaioken

This also brings up other problems like how is Goku able to predict anything if Hit just stops time, which means it has to be both at the same time, which is the only way it all makes sense.

Yeah, which is why Immeasurable is the one that works, as it would make him be able to intercept Hit as he time travels and would make him immune to Time Stot by default

 

[Killerdrone123]

Just call everything an outlier and be done with it

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Let's just follow the manga way and just null the Resistance due to the anime also hinting to Whis' statement in manga

I meant that Goku's brute forcing himself in Hit's dimension is kinda time travel in a way kek.

Ahhhh, I see. I personally disagree with that interpretation but I guess I can see it, lol.

 

[Omegabronic]

I am not talking about the U6 arc Goku, but the one in their rematch, who is unaffected by the timeskip used in U6 at all

....which as i said, it is Time Travel

That's a vsbattle logic and even then, it's not all encompassing, the DBS author does not use your logic when writing his characters, whether Goku has immeasurable speed or not, if its accepted that he has, it simply means hits time stop works on immeasurable beings (which ironically it does I'm dbh) BECAUSE Goku was frozen AFTER his immeasurable feat, post U6 Goku being unaffected by timeskip has no bearing on whatever happened before that

My dude, you are arguing in the wiki, of course you have to use its logic

And Goku is unaffected by the technique itself later on, meaning he gets time stop resistance and should likewise get possible immeasurable speed for the time travel, which again, the wiki doesn't accept and calls outlier......either way, his time stop resistance is

No because if he has Immeasurable speed then he resists Time Stop by default, and given how Time Skip doesn't work on him, that would be proven true, the statement is he resisting the TS, not only 1 facet of it

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Strym's initial analysis still makes the most sense to me.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This verse is cooked lol.

DBS was cooked the moment Toei put their hands on it.

moved

The first movement is after the fact.

The second one where he kicks where Hit is going to show up 0.1s later is proof that while Hit sees everything as frozen, time passes normally for everyone else.

and

This is Goku slipping and surpassing the time skip, not exactly fair as the technique itself was failing Hit.

reacted

This proves it's BOTH!

Goku was frozen in time, reacted and moved, and then after it was all over, he was still in the same position before Hit used the Time Skip. ... I hate this.

 

[Omegabronic]

The first movement is after the fact.

No, we hear the Time Skip being activated then Goku automatically is where Hit attacked during the Time Skip even when he was at a completely different position when Hit activated it, he has to have moved during the Timr Skip or the scene makes no sense

The second one where he kicks where Hit is going to show up 0.1s later is proof that while Hit sees everything as frozen, time passes normally for everyone else.

which now you inderstand my pain at the inconsistency of it all

This is Goku slipping and surpassing the time skip, not exactly fair as the technique itself was failing Hit.

exept this time Goku didn't moved alongside Hit in the Time Skip for some reason

This proves it's BOTH!

Goku was frozen in time, reacted and moved, and then after it was all over, he was still in the same position before Hit used the Time Skip. ... I hate this.

And yet he feels the blows and moves during the Skip....showing that be isn't frozen..................i am with you, i hate this

 

[StrymULTRA]

Again, the only solution to this would to give a very specific resistance that would only only on Hit's TS, as basically the mechanics are basically incompatible with other time stoppers.

Plain Time Stop? Not the same, as Time objectively isn't stopped, Hit is simply using his pocket dimension where everything compared to him is frozen to hit anything without any interruptions, he's not interacting with a stopped timeline at all.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Not sure where this 'immeasurable solves everything' is coming from when we literally see the evolved timeskip straight up freeze the same Goku who has the feat

Also any business with his pocket dimension wasn't there in the U6 VS U7 arc, he only displayed that afterward, there was no so called external dimension whenever Goku came at him

But anyway, one last time

....which as i said, it is Time Travel

Not sure what even means as I was talking about the time stop part, but w/e

My dude, you are arguing in the wiki, of course you have to use its logic

Hits evolved time stop worked on a character with immeasurable feat which means one of two things
A) The character isn't immeasurable by wiki standard or
B) Hits advanced time stop works on immeasurable characters

Either way, time stop worked on Goku IN the show

No because if he has Immeasurable speed then he resists Time Stop by default, and given how Time Skip doesn't work on him, that would be proven true, the statement is he resisting the TS, not only 1 facet of it

See above

Clearly being immeasurable does NOT resist Hit's time stop because we SEE Goku get frozen, I dont know how many more times I can say this, but after this, agree to disagree, because its pointless

anyway for anyone else reading this


HIT'S TIME STOP WORKED ON A GOKU WHO HAD AN IMMEASURABLE SPEED FEAT, THUS, THE GOKU WHO WAS JOW RESISTANT TO THE TIMESKIP HAS TO BE RESISTANT TO THE TIME STOP ASPECT SEPARATELY BECAUSE WHETHER HE CAN CATCH UP TO HIT OR NOT HE STILL GETS FROZEN......AS WE HAVE SEEN

 

[StrymULTRA]

HIT'S TIME STOP WORKED ON A GOKU WHO HAD AN IMMEASURABLE SPEED FEAT, THUS, THE GOKU WHO WAS JOW RESISTANT TO THE TIMESKIP HAS TO BE RESISTANT TO THE TIME STOP ASPECT SEPARATELY BECAUSE WHETHER HE CAN CATCH UP TO HIT OR NOT HE STILL GETS FROZEN......AS WE HAVE SEEN

MFTL+ x10 literally can't be Immeasurable, come on.

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Let's just make both immobile and go focus on anything else

 

[Omegabronic]

Know what? This has been going on long enough, all that could be said was said, clearly this is going nowhere, so when i get to my PC i will implement the options laid down by Strym and let the staff decide

i made a terrible mistake trying to cover this......what a headache

 

[Killerdrone123]

MFTL+ x10 literally can't be Immeasurable, come on.

Tbf we shouldn't use this logic cause you can argue the same thing for 4b × whatever the ssj god multiplier is can't be 2c

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbf we shouldn't use this logic cause you can argue the same thing for 4b × whatever the ssj god multiplier is can't be 2c

Dragon Ball has used wack logic for AP but never speed to be honest.

Especially when they were never potrayed as being capable of stuff like time travel through sheer movement ever again.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

MFTL+ x10 literally can't be Immeasurable, come on.

This isn't the first time the show has shown logically infinite boosts with finite work, nor does it make the point any less. We literally have SSG that took them from tier 4 to 2c, not to mention Vegeta straight up for to 2c through training with Whis or Frieza going from star to 2c with 4 months of training as he was able to fight base 2c Goku even before going golden

"Immeasurable" was given by the wiki for catching hit's timeskip, whether that was immeasurable or biana very limited form of time travel, the fact remains that Goku was FROZEN after he performed that feat, so whether it is agreed as immeasurable or not, he would still need time stop resistance

 

[Killerdrone123]

Dragon Ball has used wack logic for AP but never speed to be honest.

Especially when they were never potrayed as being capable of stuff like time travel through sheer movement ever again.

I mean this could be the instance where they Would have used it for speed to so it is better to not argue against it via multiplier

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Tbf we shouldn't use this logic cause you can argue the same thing for 4b × whatever the ssj god multiplier is can't be 2c

Base Goku is 2-C so this doesn't work. God multiplier has the privilege of being an unknown multiplier.

10x however, is in fact, only 10x

 

[Nierre]

people need to stop trying to make the god forms have a specific multiplier. it just doesn't work.

it's a privilege that it's unknown rather than it having a specific # or else things would get messy

 

[Killerdrone123]

Base Goku is 2-C so this doesn't work. God multiplier has the privilege of being an unknown multiplier.

10x however, is in fact, only 10x

When he first time attended ssjg he wasn't 2c at base plus the ssjg multiplier is already accepted at wiki iirc

 

[StrymULTRA]

"Immeasurable" was given by the wiki for catching hit's timeskip, whether that was immeasurable or biana very limited form of time travel, the fact remains that Goku was FROZEN after he performed that feat, so whether it is agreed as immeasurable or not, he would still need time stop resistance

Again, the only solution to this would to give a very specific resistance that would only only on Hit's TS, as basically the mechanics are basically incompatible with other time stoppers.

Plain Time Stop? Not the same, as Time objectively isn't stopped, Hit is simply using his pocket dimension where everything compared to him is frozen to hit anything without any interruptions, he's not interacting with a stopped timeline at all.

No. You're basically saying that apples and pears are the same coz both can be green.

Time Stop and Time Skip work fundamentally way to differently in order to be equalized like this, saying that Goku gets Time Stop resistance out of this is massively misinterpreting Hit's Time Skip.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

When he first time attended ssjg he wasn't 2c at base plus the ssjg multiplier is already accepted at wiki iirc

It's not God's multiplier, it's scaling to Z SSJ3 Vegito. God has no official multiplier and is scaling to something else entirely. 99.9% of the time, if a character has a finite speed and a finite multiplier, his speed will be multiplied by that finite multiplier.

 

[Killerdrone123]

It's not God's multiplier, it's scaling to Z SSJ3 Vegito. God has no official multiplier and is scaling to something else entirely. 99.9% of the time, if a character has a finite speed and a finite multiplier, his speed will be multiplied by that finite multiplier.

Like I said doesn't matter wiki accepts like that and still has goku at 2c we shouldn't bring multiplier arguments for this sort of thing that's my whole point

 

[Killerdrone123]

Btw I agree with styrm initial proposal

 

[Omegabronic]

Ok guys, i put strym's proposal in the OP

Honestly, this entire topic is a mess.

Neutral for now. Gojo’s Infinity seems easier to interpret than this.

95% of JoJo fans don't even comprehend how it works for some dumb reason

Given this, could you guys vote again and tag some staff into this so that we can finally and hopefully finish this?

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

No. You're basically saying that apples and pears are the same coz both can be green.

Time Stop and Time Skip work fundamentally way to differently in order to be equalized like this, saying that Goku gets Time Stop resistance out of this is massively misinterpreting Hit's Time Skip.

When hit evolved his timeskip against KKx10 Goku, he tike froze Goku, the background itself changes to red, the same red we see him use against the mob boss goons and it is explicitly said that time has stopped for them, that's what I am referring to

When he attacked Goku turns Goku was Frozen, as opposed to initially when you could see Goku grimacing and reacting when hit blitzed him with his 0.5 second timeskip

 

[Omegabronic]

When hit evolved his timeskip against KKx10 Goku, he tike froze Goku, the background itself changes to red, the same red we see him use against the mob boss goons and it is explicitly said that time has stopped for them, that's what I am referring to

When he attacked Goku turns Goku was Frozen, as opposed to initially when you could see Goku grimacing and reacting when hit blitzed him with his 0.5 second timeskip

No, the first time he did the background was the exact same as his normal time skip

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Like I said doesn't matter wiki accepts like that and still has goku at 2c we shouldn't bring multiplier arguments for this sort of thing that's my whole point

It doesn't. Finite speed x finite multiplier is finite speed, that's a legit contradiction and will be used accordingly

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Because Goku reached with with KK10, which multiplies both AP and speed.

You can't get Immeasurable with x10 multiplier, it doesn't make sense even from an in-verse logic, this isn't even "treating infinite as finite" anymore.

Again this is just plain wrong. Realistically there is no set multiplier to reach any level of transfinite speed. Even if kiaoken was a hypothetical infinite boost.

There are characters in fiction who can reach immeasurable speed by going 2x speed their characters who require infinite multipliers. All that matters is that they do reach that level.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Regardless or not if we assume Goku is literally time traveling the feat would bare minimum need to be infinite speed if he’s attacking in real time.

 

[Robo432343]

if it was immeasurable speed then why was there an hourglass bro

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

There are characters in fiction who can reach immeasurable speed by going 2x speed their characters who require infinite multipliers.

Whataboutism and if that's the case, either the evidence was too strong, or the counterevidence too weak. In this case, the multiplier IS still a contradiction, but if a character has 100 immeasurable speed feats, then it doesn't really matter now, does it? You CANNOT use other series to justify this, the multiplier is as much of a problem there as it is here, it's just the fact that other context and feats exist to prevent the multiplier from being a defining contradiction.

Dragon Ball doesn't have this privilege, therefore the multiplier being finite is a contradiction, it simply is, and we will use to disregard the slightest possibility of Goku having immeasurable speed. You don't actually have a logical argument here, technically. All you said was, "I don't care about logic, others series were allowed to do it, so DB should also do it"

No, it shouldn't. I presented a valid reason why it shouldn't. Using other cases is NOT a valid point, what you need to do is address the logical problem.

Realistically there is no set multiplier to reach any level of transfinite speed.

Realistically any finite number multiplied by a finite multiplier results in a finite number. If you want to talk about realistic. We KNOW the multiplier is 10x so why should we scale Goku to be infinitely faster than, shocker, just 10 times? This is nonsense. Not to mention the other contradictions to this, you actually don't have a point here.

if it was immeasurable speed then why was there an hourglass bro

Goku has immeasurable speed but has a finite number of battles in 48 minutes of T.o.P. Can't bro just time travel to the past with his speed? How limited.

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean, to be totally fair, Immeasurable speed isn’t some set thing. It’s a spectrum. Some characters have whole scaling chains of immeasurable speed. Goku’s own feat, while necessarily immeasurable, (though an outlier), is only a few seconds at MAX. The ToP doesn’t really act as an anti-feat to that, because Goku can only abuse his “immeasurable speed” to .5 seconds of time travel. The whole thing is 48 minutes. There’s not really a contradiction.

While yes, immeasurable speed treats time as if it was just another spatial dimension, that doesn’t absolve you of limitation in that spatial dimension as you are in the standard 3 Dimensional movement. So calling it incredibly limited levels of immeasurable doesn’t really change what it is, because limited levels of immeasurable exists logistically, and probably on wiki.

That SAID, it still doesn’t matter and I agree with not putting it in the profile as that, outside of maybe a note. After all, it is a contradiction of multiplier, an outlier, and in itself simply the best answer we can derive out of a nonsensical set of parameters.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

necessarily immeasurable.

Necessarily is definitely the wrong term here, "could be interpreted as" would be more appropriate, because again, given what we know now, the possibility that Goku is simply resisting the effects of Hit's Time Hax is far more likely.

That SAID, it still doesn’t matter and I agree with not putting it in the profile as that, outside of maybe a note. After all, it is a contradiction of multiplier, an outlier, and in itself simply the best answer we can derive out of a nonsensical set of parameters.

Yeah, to add to that, later we have the contradiction of Goku not being able to move at all when Hit uses a longer time jump, not even for half a second as he's supposed to. And this happens in the very next episode.

It's almost like the writers don't know how immeasurable speed works or something... oh wait! But seriously, you're absolutely right, there are far too many problems with this.

 

[RedReaper616]

Necessarily is definitely the wrong term here, "could be interpreted as" would be more appropriate, as again, with the current knowledge, the possibility of Goku just resisting the effects of Hit's time hax are far more likely.

He does, but you can’t “resist” Time Travel. Which is what Hit is doing on top of Time Stop. Thus, necessarily, to perform what we see him do—(Meeting Hit mid-Time Travel-Stop), he must be Time Traveling. And Kaioken is a stat multiplier, so he’s doing so via his stats. Given this is based on solely his movement, this has to be attributed to speed. Thus, he necessarily must be moving at immeasurable speed, at least to counter the Time Travel portion of the ability. The other portion, like Time Stop, is just normal resistance.

Yeah, to add to this, we later have a contradiction of Goku not being able to move at all at a longer time-skip, not even his supposed 0.5s. And this happens the very next episode.

This isn’t a contradiction, though. If Goku can only move .5 seconds with immeasurable speed and Time Skip is now at .6 seconds, then Goku is at least frozen for .1 seconds for Hit to use to his advantage. Again, Immeasurable Speed doesn’t have to be unlimited Time Travel capability. It can be limited and tiered as such.

It's almost like the writers don't know how immeasurable speed works or something... oh wait! But seriously, you're absolutely right, there are far too many problems with this.

Right. I’m just clarifying, because the main crux of that final post—Goku being limited in terms of immeasurable speed—Doesn’t debunk anything, or poke any holes, or reveal contradictions. It just describes the objective truth of the matter. Goku displays a feat, but even at its best showing/interpretation it’s still limited at not something ridiculous.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There are characters in fiction who can reach immeasurable speed by going 2x speed their characters who require infinite multipliers. All that matters is that they do reach that level.

Tell me so I'll downgrade them then.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

He does, but you can’t “resist” Time Travel. Which is what Hit is doing on top of Time Stop. Thus, necessarily, to perform what we see him do—(Meeting Hit mid-Time Travel-Stop), he must be Time Traveling. And Kaioken is a stat multiplier, so he’s doing so via his stats. Given this is based on solely his movement, this has to be attributed to speed. Thus, he necessarily must be moving at immeasurable speed, at least to counter the Time Travel portion of the ability. The other portion, like Time Stop, is just normal resistance.

This is contradicted by the way the ability is shown, so I won't dwell on it, sometimes Goku can just move between jumps.

Honestly, if he just freezes your perception of time for 0.5 seconds, and then that 0.5 seconds actually passes, he's... just waiting, to be honest, that's not really time travel.

This isn’t a contradiction, though. If Goku can only move .5 seconds with immeasurable speed and Time Skip is now at .6 seconds, then Goku is at least frozen for .1 seconds for Hit to use to his advantage. Again, Immeasurable Speed doesn’t have to be unlimited Time Travel capability. It can be limited and tiered as such.

I mean, you kind of agreed with me. Goku is NOT frozen for 0.1 seconds, firstly because Hit could only have hit Goku once in that amount of time, given what we know so far, and secondly because Goku is frozen for the entire duration of the time skip, just because it was longer. It's still a contradiction even for the tiny amount of "immeasurable speed", since even that wasn't shown.

Goku being limited in terms of immeasurable speed—Doesn’t debunk anything, or poke any holes, or reveal contradictions

I think it's the other way around, the fact that he can't even show the same level of efficiency as before is a contradiction in terms. Logically, it can be attributed to speed, but I see it as proof positive that it was not meant to be that way. Of course, we have the multiplier contradiction, which is equally aggravating.

If Goku only moved for 0.5 seconds and then froze, allowing Hit to get in a punch, then I'd agree with you, but that's not what happens.