Mash Burnedead and the Devil Host's Rematch (Mash vs Asta)

[AnAverageUsername]

@AnAverageUsername

Also, Asta can predict and adapted to FTE blitzing before

so even without the rules, Asta will be fine with his precognition and AD.

Ok, dont know why you needed to spoiler tag that....

By your "increasing the speed = increasing the force" logic Mash is far stronger than Abyss.

Mash was capable of generating power at slow speeds when Abyss thought it was impossible. So it is either you are wrong about "increasing speed = increasing force" or you are wrong about Mash not being far stronger than Abyss

You know this is wrong, stop. Mash is obviously stronger




He can use his reflex, but it's predictable. Asta will know where his body goes and react quicker and better.



Asta reads his life force not muscles so you're wrong.

He is predictable.



First of all, you are ignoring context.

Tell me one time Asta was caught off guard in battle by an opponent comparable or slower than him

Second of all,

What happened to Mash's reflex? This happened many times in one match...

His reflex is good when Mr. Creampuff is involved.

if the opponent is faster, Mash and Asta will be caught lacking.

Actually, Mash's reflexes are good all around, but as you mentioned, they get shot when his opponent is waaaaay faster than him. Mash can still react to faster opponents like Margaret, but ironically the wizard who's magic is "fast arrows" is extremely faster than the wizard who controls sound, go figure.

Oh, and Levis who kept shouting "THIS RAILGUN CAN FIRE AT SPEEDS UP TO MACH 7/8", where Mash was able to adapt quite fast even with the speed and distance.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Mash was capable of generating power at slow speeds when Abyss thought it was impossible. So it is either you are wrong about "increasing speed = increasing force" or you are wrong about Mash not being far stronger than Abyss

You know this is wrong, stop. Mash is obviously stronger

I've said above Mash grew stronger if he wanted to, please read.

He can use his reflex, but it's predictable. Asta will know where his body goes and react quicker and better.


Asta reads his life force not muscles so you're wrong.

Asta predicted by sensing his Ki = Movement. I'm not fully wrong.

First of all, you are ignoring context.

Tell me one time Asta was caught off guard in battle by an opponent comparable or slower than him

Like here https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Black-Clover/0241-007.png
Here https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Black-Clover/0242-006.png

What happened to Mash's reflex? This happened many times in one match...

His reflex is good when Mr. Creampuff is involved.

Here https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0031-002.png
also he reacted to IZ

https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0071-007.png

https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0071-008.png

He reacted to Margaretted
https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0060-017.png wich is Faster than him

His reflex is above normal

if the opponent is faster, Mash and Asta will be caught lacking.

Definitely if the case is 10x faster than him but did Asta way faster than Mash? And also Mash can grow more faster and stronger in the midle of fight

This is why Asta gets caught lacking because his opponent bypasses his predictions with an ability and blitz. Remember Licht vs Asta and Yuno? Remember when Licht FTE blitzed them because his aura prevented Asta from sensing his ki?

So Mash just need to grow more faster than before so Asta cant predict Mash's movement.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ok, dont know why you needed to spoiler tag that....

Cuz didn't want to disrupt the flow of the debate

but it seems like you want to partake

Actually, Mash's reflexes are good all around, but as you mentioned, they get shot when his opponent is waaaaay faster than him. Mash can still react to faster opponents like Margaret, but ironically the wizard who's magic is "fast arrows" is extremely faster than the wizard who controls sound, go figure.

Oh, and Levis who kept shouting "THIS RAILGUN CAN FIRE AT SPEEDS UP TO MACH 7/8", where Mash was able to adapt quite fast even with the speed and distance.

Maybe he is faster than the wizards ability to control sound and not the sound itself. Like you punching a guy slower than you with a gun that can shoot at speeds faster than you

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Cuz didn't want to disrupt the flow of the debate

but it seems like you want to partake

Eh, I just want to correct some things. Getting into this doozy of a debate makes me too nervous.

Maybe he is faster than the wizards ability to control sound and not the sound itself. Like you punching a guy slower than you with a gun that can shoot at speeds faster than you

Margarette's magic allows her to snap and then become sound. While the snapping part may be slow enough for Mash to catch, that isn't the case when Margarette turns into sound. However, at the end of their fight, Mash was able to straight up follow Margarette, if only momentarily, with a feint, showing that he was able to eventually get his reflexes to that point.

For Levis, it's harder to say. No startup is stated for the attack, but conveniently the distance and a timeframe was given, so I think its safe to assume that there isn't really a startup, at least until the anime is released. Though I may have to reread that chapter. Not only was it good, I still need to refresh my memory a bit.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I've said above Mash grew stronger if he wanted to, please read.

Like I said

You Are Wrong

Mash has always been that strong or he would've been diced meat.

Asta predicted by sensing his Ki = Movement. I'm not fully wrong.

Ki is life force. He can read it to predict Mash's next move.

You are wrong because you said Asta looks at muscle movements, obviously, Asta's predictions won't be good if he reads muscle movements. so yeah.. He reads life energy.

Like here https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Black-Clover/0241-007.png
Here https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Black-Clover/0242-006.png

Wrong.

Read my question again.

Dante is far faster than Asta base form.

Here https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0031-002.png
also he reacted to IZ
https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0071-007.png https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0071-008.png He reacted to Margaretted
https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0060-017.png wich is Faster than him

His reflex is above normal

WHY ARE YOU COMPARING TWO DEFINITIONS OF REFLEX

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MASH'S AUTONOMOUS REFLEX ACTIONS NOT HIS ABILITY TO REACT QUICKLY.

Stop it. I hate that shit. That is obviously strawman

Definitely if the case is 10x faster than him but did Asta way faster than Mash? And also Mash can grow more faster and stronger in the midle of fight

I did not see any 10x value. Where is this multiplier coming from?


Again, Mash never grew in that fight, he has always been that strong. Abyss is simply not strong enough to completely slash through Mash's body. Abyss with Secondth slashes still can't cut through Mash's body. ASTA IS STRONG ENOUGH TO COMPLETELY SLASH THROUGH MASH WITH ONE SWING.

So Mash just need to grow more faster than before so Asta cant predict Mash's movement.

Mash is not the only one who can grow in combat

Asta can predict those who can blitz him and he can improve his precognition even further and become even faster to adapt to things that are fast and things that can bypass his precognition.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Eh, I just want to correct some things. Getting into this doozy of a debate makes me too nervous.

Its so annoyinggg

I prefer debating you because you don't go through shady tactics and you aren't terribly biased

Margarette's magic allows her to snap and then become sound. While the snapping part may be slow enough for Mash to catch, that isn't the case when Margarette turns into sound. However, at the end of their fight, Mash was able to straight up follow Margarette, if only momentarily, with a feint, showing that he was able to eventually get his reflexes to that point.

For Levis, it's harder to say. No startup is stated for the attack, but conveniently the distance and a timeframe was given, so I think its safe to assume that there isn't really a startup, at least until the anime is released. Though I may have to reread that chapter. Not only was it good, I still need to refresh my memory a bit.

No, this is a misunderstanding.

When @WrongIdea21 first mentioned reflex he was talking about Mash's instinctive reactions

Now he started talking about another meaning of reflexes so he can say I am wrong, which is a bullshit strawman tactic if he meant it.

 

[Kachon123]

When does Grace end

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Like I said

You Are Wrong

Unrelated but have you read the rest of Mashle yet? I don't mean to offend if I'm coming across that way, just wondering.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Its so annoyinggg

I prefer debating you because you don't go through shady tactics and you aren't terribly biased



No, this is a misunderstanding.

When @WrongIdea21 first mentioned reflex he was talking about Mash's instinctive reactions

Now he started talking about another meaning of reflexes so he can say I am wrong, which is a bullshit strawman tactic if he meant it.

Eh, I don't understand what's going on here myself either. To be honest, I've lost track of the thread.

When does Grace end

It ends at 5:59 EST I think. Or 15:59 if you go by military time.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Unrelated but have you read the rest of Mashle yet? I don't mean to offend if I'm coming across that way, just wondering.

Not yet, but Ive gotten to the Abyss fight, and im seeing that Mash was stronger than Abyss while Abyss was faster.

It ends at 5:59 EST I think. Or 15:59 if you go by military time.

What about Pacific time

 

[WrongIdea21]

Like I said

You Are Wrong

Mash has always been that strong or he would've been diced meat.

No, he isnt You agree that He always holding back right?

Ki is life force. He can read it to predict Mash's next move.

You are wrong because you said Asta looks at muscle movements, obviously, Asta's predictions won't be good if he reads muscle movements. so yeah.. He reads life energy.

Wdym ? https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Black-Clover/0048-004.png

Wrong.

Read my question again.

Dante is far faster than Asta base form.

The Gravity is Faster than Asta? Lmao, he caught of guard because talk to much.

WHY ARE YOU COMPARING TWO DEFINITIONS OF REFLEX

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MASH'S AUTONOMOUS REFLEX ACTIONS NOT HIS ABILITY TO REACT QUICKLY.

He reacted by Reflexes, because of he can sense the danger. That was a things that cant be separated.

I did not see any 10x value. Where is this multiplier coming from?

We agree that Secondth is buffing their users atleast 10x.

Secondths are considered unique spells that are at the top of the Double-Line wizard hierarchy, with only a few being able to awaken the essence of such power. And therefore, Secondths based on destruction must have a multiplier above considerably simple spells like Sectional Graviole, which is capable of creating a concentration of magic powerful enough to exceed a power of 10 times the conventional.

Just copying from @LIFE_OF_KING explanation, you can also ask @AnAverageUsername for more.

Again, Mash never grew in that fight, he has always been that strong. Abyss is simply not strong enough to completely slash through Mash's body. Abyss with Secondth slashes still can't cut through Mash's body. ASTA IS STRONG ENOUGH TO COMPLETELY SLASH THROUGH MASH WITH ONE SWING.

So, Asta One shoted?
He definitely grow stronger and faster, before he grew Mash got blitzed hundred times and he become more faster that he can catch Abys sword with his bare hand.

Mash is not the only one who can grow in combat

Asta can predict those who can blitz him and he can improve his precognition even further and become even faster to adapt to things that are fast and things that can bypass his precognition.

So, because both can grow in the midle of fight the case is Stamina. Then Mash will easly win.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

And @AnAverageUsername

Stated that once he has seen an attack, he can react to it better than before[28

Did he do this in one fight or two fights? In the scan it is implied he did this in 2 fights so I don't see why we are assuming his AD happens instantly.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Not yet, but Ive gotten to the Abyss fight, and im seeing that Mash was stronger than Abyss while Abyss was faster.



What about Pacific time

Eh, about 2:59 for Pacific

 

[AnAverageUsername]

And @AnAverageUsername




Did he do this in one fight or two fights? In the scan it is implied he did this in 2 fights so I don't see why we are assuming his AD happens instantly.

Recounting from memory, it happened in around 3-4ish standard fights, against Margarette, Cell and Levis. Abyss' fight is sorta iffy, but I believe that Mash eventually overcoming Abyss by using the enviornment counts. Unrelated, but I love that fight, especially the reference to the original one shot "Shivasaki-Kun". But at most each of these fights took a couple minutes.

Then there was the time Mash went up against a 100 armors where he had no choice but to adapt and use his Accelerated Development. This happened in the span of a month for all 100 armor, but he did take out 10 in 3-4 days. So I'd say his AD is pretty fast.

 

[Epsilon_R]

I don't even know if it matters at this point but I vote Asta

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I don't even know if it matters at this point but I vote Asta

Counted

 

[Nightshade]

Asta one shots

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Asta one shots

One shot gap is 7.5x, might be raised a bit though

 

[Arnoldstone18]

No, he isnt You agree that He always holding back right?

Yes,

So unless you want this match to be invalid, he will stay held back as shown in the OP.

Wdym ? https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Black-Clover/0048-004.png

Read the scan again. Thank you.

The Gravity is Faster than Asta? Lmao, he caught of guard because talk to much.

Again, that is not what happened in both your scans.

1. Asta was rushing towards Dante and he got blitzed
2. Asta got blitz-stomped.

So stop misinterpreting your own scans, this is getting annoying.

You have still not answered my question

He reacted by Reflexes, because of he can sense the danger. That was a things that cant be separated.

You originally sent an instinctive reaction scan and now you're talking to me about extrasensory perception bro, what are you on?

We agree that Secondth is buffing their users atleast 10x.
Just copying from @LIFE_OF_KING explanation, you can also ask @AnAverageUsername for more.

According to this,

Secondths are considered unique spells that are at the top of the Double-Line wizard hierarchy, with only a few being able to awaken the essence of such power. And therefore, Secondths based on destruction must have a multiplier above considerably simple spells like Sectional Graviole, which is capable of creating a concentration of magic powerful enough to exceed a power of 10 times the conventional.

Nobody agreed that Secondth is a 10x speed amp.

So like i said, Mash is stronger than Abyss Razor and Asta is 5x stronger than Mash in this matchup.

Mash gets cut in half.

So, Asta One shoted?
He definitely grow stronger and faster, before he grew Mash got blitzed hundred times and he become more faster that he can catch Abys sword with his bare hand.

Well I already debunked the fact that Abyss got 10x stronger so Mash remained Stronger than Abyss.


Asta is already 5x stronger than Mash in this match which is enough to slash Mash clean through

So, because both can grow in the midle of fight the case is Stamina. Then Mash will easly win.

But if Asta lands a few hits he wins. So no this won't end in stamina.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

One shot gap is 7.5x, might be raised a bit though

Asta does not need to be 7.5x stronger

Assuming a situation in which one character has humanoid physiology and is hit in the torso region, the assailant will normally be treated as needing an attack potency 7.5 times higher than their opponent's durability in order to one-shot them.

If Asta goes for his neck or head or anywhere that isn't torso its over.

Even if Asta goes for his Torso, he will need about 2 shots and he is holding 2 swords.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Asta does not need to be 7.5x stronger




If Asta goes for his neck or head or anywhere that isn't torso its over.

Even if Asta goes for his Torso, he will need about 2 shots and he is holding 2 swords.

Ah, I forgot the head and neck existed for a second. Eh, I'd day that if Mash does get hit, outside of his head/neck, he could possibly regenerate from some deep slashes, outside of cut off limbs. He did recover from a whole trident lodged into him.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Anyways, if people really want to use an example of Mash surviving attacks that are far stronger than himself, why not use his fight against Domina before he took off his weights.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Yes,

So unless you want this match to be invalid, he will stay held back as shown in the OP.

Wdym by invalid? Mash adapted and win.

Read the scan again. Thank you.

I'm not wrong muscles motion is part of it.

Again, that is not what happened in both your scans.

1. Asta was rushing towards Dante and he got blitzed
2. Asta got blitz-stomped.

He rushing and doesnt read Dante's hand or gravity.

You originally sent an instinctive reaction scan and now you're talking to me about extrasensory perception bro, what are you on?

I always talking about his Reflexes you the only one who made it up.

Nobody agreed that Secondth is a 10x speed amp.

I agree, @AnAverageUsername also agree and nobody debunking that things.

So like i said, Mash is stronger than Abyss Razor and Asta is 5x stronger than Mash in this matchup.

Mash doesnt stronger than Abys in the first place until Mash adjust his strength above Abys and 5x stronger cant One shoted Mash.

Well I already debunked the fact that Abyss got 10x stronger so Mash remained Stronger than Abyss.


Asta is already 5x stronger than Mash in this match which is enough to slash Mash clean through

Where's your debunk? And I've replying multiple times that several times stronger can't One shoted Mash.

But if Asta lands a few hits he wins. So no this won't end in stamina

1 or 4 Slash would have no Diffrent in AP and if You cant One hit K.O Mash then Asta would end up frustated and got defeated.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Anyways, if people really want to use an example of Mash surviving attacks that are far stronger than himself, why not use his fight against Domina before he took off his weights.

Did you think I didnt?

Even with 10 Slash it doesnt enough to Kill him, like this

https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0026-014.png

https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0026-007.png

https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0027-021.png

Or stab him like this

https://official-ongoing-1.ivalice.us/manga/Mashle/0026-015.png

Or even like this https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Mashle/0094-015.png

Mash always Holding back against his opponent until he need to, what stopping Mash for adapating and tier jump?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ah, I forgot the head and neck existed for a second. Eh, I'd day that if Mash does get hit, outside of his head/neck, he could possibly regenerate from some deep slashes, outside of cut off limbs. He did recover from a whole trident lodged into him.

Yeah but a huge gaping wound on his torso is more severe than stabbing wounds. Does Mash regenerates immediately or cover up his damage until a significant amount of time has passed (three chapters later)?

This fight won't last that long.

Anyways, if people really want to use an example of Mash surviving attacks that are far stronger than himself, why not use his fight against Domina before he took off his weights.

How strong was Domina relative to him?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I agree, @AnAverageUsername also agree and nobody debunking that things.

Wait, when did I agree it was a 10x speed amp? I agree that Secondths are 10x amps to AP if it's based on destruction, and spells all around if its summoning, but I never said anything about speed.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Wait, when did I agree it was a 10x speed amp? I agree that Secondths are 10x amps to AP if it's based on destruction, and spells all around if its summoning, but I never said anything about speed.

So you disagree that Abyss' Secondth is 10x Speed amp?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yeah but a huge gaping wound on his torso is more severe than stabbing wounds. Does Mash regenerates immediately or cover up his damage until a significant amount of time has passed (three chapters later)?

Mash just shrugs it off. During his fight with Abyss? He was fine with all those slashes, and fought a held back Divine Visionary right after. In his fight with Domina, he broke off the trident after being impaled by it, and there were no visible wounds on his body. Implement by trident should be equal to getting stabbed by a large sword.

This fight won't last that long.




How strong was Domina relative to him?

Domina at his peak before obtaining the Wand of Begginings was beating Mash without much resistance. Domina was using their Thirds while having used Summoning as well, which is basically the peak of magical power. Want me to post the chapter so you can see for yourself?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

So you disagree that Abyss' Secondth is 10x Speed amp?

I dont agree or disagree. I don't think that topic has been brought up before even in the Mashle Discussion thread.

 

[WrongIdea21]

I dont agree or disagree. I don't think that topic has been brought up before even in the Mashle Discussion thread.

Bro listen, Secondth multiplier never be an AP Multiplier, it's Magic capability amp. If your Secondth Magic type is destructive type then it can be AP amp, but Abyss Magic Capability is to Accelerated his speed, amping his Magic capability make his Secondth is 10x speed amp. This simple things dont need to make it difficult.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Wdym by invalid? Mash adapted and win.

If Mash stops holding back he will jump tiers which is not allowed by the OP and if it was allowed by the OP this match can not be added.

In this case, Mash only adapts after getting hit numerous times. Asta only needs 1-3 hits to end this fight.

I'm not wrong muscles motion is part of it.

Again, read your scan. The muscles movements are just examples of things that can be detected and predicted

Look at the second speech bubble. Ki is Life Energy.

Look at the thrid to last bubble. Ki can be read to predict moves.

Please don't bring this up again. You were clearly wrong about Asta reading muscle movements, he reads Life energy.

He rushing and doesnt read Dante's hand or gravity.

Because Dante blitzed him. Even if Asta predicted it, Dante is just way too fast. And you know this. Dante is even faster than his Black form. So drop this. if you can't properly answer my question. drop it.

I always talking about his Reflexes you the only one who made it up.

There are two definitions of the word "reflex"

1. Instinctive reaction
2. Acting quickly

Look here. Look at 2a. and 2c.

In your very first scan you brought Instinctive reaction (Margette and the creampuff scene) and you brought scans of Mash acting quickly to prove me wrong.

If the word reflex can be used for both then I will simply look for statements or showings of Asta having fast reflexes.

I agree, @AnAverageUsername also agree and nobody debunking that things.

The 10x multiplier is only for destructive based secondth like everyone agreed on. Abyss' secondth is speed based not destruction based.

So no Mash did not get 10x stronger or faster to beat Abyss. Otherwise this feat wouldve been added to his page.

Mash doesnt stronger than Abys in the first place until Mash adjust his strength above Abys and 5x stronger cant One shoted Mash.

Ive addressed this already.

Abyss never became 10x stronger, so your only proof is gone. Mash has always been superior to Abyss and it is obviously shown by Abyss not being capable of overpowering Mash, or completely severing Mash's body.

Where's your debunk? And I've replying multiple times that several times stronger can't One shoted Mash.

You cant say things without at least telling me when and how he does it. The debunk is in what you copy and pasted here.

1 or 4 Slash would have no Diffrent in AP and if You cant One hit K.O Mash then Asta would end up frustated and got defeated.

No Asta will cut through his body easily. or Asta starts spinning and kills him. The AP advantage is too large and Mash has to hold back, sorry.

Its better this match ends incon.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Bro listen, Secondth multiplier never be an AP Multiplier, it's Magic capability amp. If your Secondth Magic type is destructive type then it can be AP amp, but Abyss Magic Capability is to Accelerated his speed, amping his Magic capability make his Secondth is 10x speed amp. This simple things dont need to make it difficult.

It sounds like you're saying I'm the one making things difficult....

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Mash just shrugs it off. During his fight with Abyss? He was fine with all those slashes, and fought a held back Divine Visionary right after. In his fight with Domina, he broke off the trident after being impaled by it, and there were no visible wounds on his body. Implement by trident should be equal to getting stabbed by a large sword.

I know Mash will be fine if Asta stabs him, its more like if he can survive his limbs cut off or if there is a huge gaping slash wound on his torso.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It sounds like you're saying I'm the one making things difficult....

EXACTLY

HE BROUGHT A COPY AND PASTE OF IT BEING ONLY AN AP SECONDTH MULTIPLIER.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

i really hope this match ends in incon at least because its really dumb for Asta to lose like this with so many advantages to land a few hit.

 

[45Saef]

Asta FRA

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I know Mash will be fine if Asta stabs him, its more like if he can survive his limbs cut off or if there is a huge gaping slash wound on his torso.

Well the torso part he might be fine with. The limb part? Probably not. Unless it's one of his 5 brothers or Renatus the Immortal Cane.

i really hope this match ends in incon at least because its really dumb for Asta to lose like this with so many advantages to land a few hit.

Eh, I'm just going with what the people say. And the majority have voted in Mash's favor, even if it may seem odd. I just want this match to be over with all together...

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Asta FRA

Counted

 

[AnAverageUsername]

So the score is now 8-5 in Mash's favor, how does this affect grace.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So the score is now 8-5 in Mash's favor, how does this affect grace.

I don’t think so

but if it’s 8-6 it would be Incon.