Should we reduce how many Power pages we have?

[Crabwhale]

• Peak Human Physical Characteristics

The other things I can see where you're coming from, but like, what?

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

Well, the main issue here is that the redundant power pages that would not be turned into redirect links would require a lot of work to remove.

Do we have any volunteers among our content moderators and administrators in this regard?

I do not mind helping once you guys have come to a decision.

 

[Antvasima]

There's a lot of overlapping of already existing abilities that really don't need their own pages can be replaced with unique abilities, instead of having several versions on 1 ability that isn't significant enough of an ability on its own. A few I personally would target for removal (or just making them sub-types of already existing abilities) are:
• Peak Human Physical Characteristics

Disagreed. I think that it is useful to keep around.

• Time Stop (This, like time acceleration, deceleration, etcetera, are all sub components of Time Manipulation)

Probably agreed.

• Breaking the Fourth Wall (This ability isn't applicable to matchups or just isn't very important to document I believe)

Disagreed. It is a unique and sufficiently prominent ability in my view.

• Breath Attack

Agreed.

• Crystal Manipulation & Sand Manipulation (Both of these should be sub-powers of Earth Manipulation)

Probably agreed.

• Energy Projection (This just seems like Energy Manipulation used as attacks, which can still just be documented as "Energy Manipulation (Can fire energy beams, Use Energy based attacks etc.)")

Uncertain, as I mentioned earlier above.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not mind helping once you guys have come to a decision.

Thanks a lot for all of your help. You are awesome as always.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Damage Reduction is fine to stay, since as Bambu noted some stuff that qualifies for it does not get covered by Stat Amp
Anyways what's the full on plan, because it seems like some powers we are making a redirect for while others are just getting nuked

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the power pages that I think might be merged into other pages and then turned into redirect links are the following.

Awakened Power
Chaos Manipulation
Crystal Manipulation
Damage Reduction
Empowerment
Madness Manipulation
Morality Manipulation
Rage Power
Sand Manipulation
Sense Manipulation
Time Stop

The ones that might be removed are the following, but it is far more difficult to remove all such links than to create a single redirect link, so it is uncertain if this is realistic to apply.

Blessed
Breath Attack
Ectoplasm Manipulation
Unholy Manipulation

I am uncertain which option that is best for the following page.

Organic Manipulation

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Quite a few things Prom argued were proposed and rejected; particularly broadway force and what not. Also, Damage Boost is basically attacks being effective against foes of a specific category. I suppose it's common to be opponent's weakness section. As everyone with fire manipulation technically has damage boost against characters who have "Vulnerable to fire" in their weakness section. But I still think it should stay via stuff like "Sword of Dragon's Bane" and other similar weapons. Damage reduction does feel similar to either power nullification or something. I agree 100% that time stop is just an example of time manipulation; as time manipulation can include timer acceleration, stopping, deceleration, and time reversal.

Aura basically redundant with having a Ki barrier or something. Organic Manipulation is basically identical to Biology manipulation. Not sure about Ectoplasm but that can either be interpreted as Soul Manipulation (Specifically using parts of your soul to attack foes) or Spirit Energy Manipulation (Which really is just a sub form of Energy/Ki manipulation).

 

[Armorchompy]

I still think Aura is fine, it covers a bunch of things that kinda fit under other P&A but not really neatly, it can be energy projection, vibration/air manipulation, light manipulation, empathic/fear manipulation or any combination of the above (and probably other things i'm forgetting), and I think there's value in having an umbrella for all sorts of these things since it tends to be a common trope in japanese media

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In that case, I agree with Aura remaining.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, me as well.

Edit: I have removed it from my list.

 

[Damage3245]

I think if we start small, then Breath Attack at least is a good one to go in the deletion pile.

 

[Therefir]

"Small" you say, when unlike other pages, Breath Attack cannot be automatically replaced by redirects, since there are many types of breath.

This means we would have to go through each page to remove Breath Attack.

 

[Therefir]

We need to start with something pointless that can be redirected to other pages, like Sand Manipulation and Crystal Manipulation being redirected to Earth Manipulation.

 

[Damage3245]

"Small" you say, when unlike other pages, Breath Attack cannot be automatically replaced by redirects, since there are many types of breath.

This means we would have to go through each page to remove Breath Attack.

Fair point.

I had thought there were fewer users.

 

[Bobsican]

Holy has actual properties you can associate with it though, generally I use it for anything that damages undead or demonic beings, that kind of stuff, we don't really have another power for chucking holy water at a ghoul and it spontaneously melting or catching fire. Hellfire is just fire, with possibly some form of hax sometimes associated with it

Thing is that something being holy doesn't inherently grant it any of the "possible uses" mentioned, as discussed on the thread I linked before. It's just a glorified category for characters that have a power religionally related, which has about the same issues as Blessed anyways, except often far vaguer.

 

[Armorchompy]

Thing is that something being holy doesn't inherently grant it any of the "possible uses" mentioned, as discussed on the thread I linked before.

It would still be assumed to work on characters from other verses who have shown a weakness to holy stuff, even if in-verse that never comes up. There's still relevance to it.

Also, you still haven't addressed what that power should be indexed as if Holy Manip is deleted. It's not damage boost, it's not (always) fire/pain/death manipulation, it's not (always) durability negation, if it isn't Holy Manipulation when what is it?

 

[Bobsican]

It would still be assumed to work on characters from other verses who have shown a weakness to holy stuff, even if in-verse that never comes up. There's still relevance to it.

Also, you still haven't addressed what that power should be indexed as if Holy Manip is deleted. It's not damage boost, it's not (always) fire/pain/death manipulation, it's not (always) durability negation, if it isn't Holy Manipulation when what is it?

The argument isn't on if it'd work on characters to other verses, but rather it having no inherent attributes beyond a fancy name and the Blessed power (which is being removed from the look of things in fact, not doing any favors) being involved.

Either way, verse equalization would have to be involved either way at best as we'd be involving different religional/deitical figures (with different capabilities as much we don't assume anything not confirmed) to derive powers from, which just highlights even more issues of this ability existing on the site, namely the fact that your argument relies on us assuming all users of Holy Manip have the same inherent capability to abuse a weakness, when it just doesn't work like that out of a lack of proper criteria to begin with.

It's nothing beyond a glorified category as said before, it'd have to be removed as I've said before on the other thread, I'm aware it'd be a ton of work, but that'd be the case as well for several other proposed pages to remove, and given that was the only thing keeping this on the site... yeah, I'd heavily support deleting it.
Cases that relied on this for some specified powers can stand on their own, or at worst would just require being updated with their own CRT, there's precedent with this kind of deletions like how type 3 Abstract Existence went.

 

[Armorchompy]

The argument isn't on if it'd work on characters to other verses, but rather it having no inherent attributes beyond a fancy name and the Blessed power (which is being removed from the look of things in fact, not doing any favors) being involved.

Blessed is completely unrelated, don't bring it up.

Either way, verse equalization would have to be involved either way at best as we'd be involving different religional/deitical figures (with different capabilities as much we don't assume anything not confirmed) to derive powers from, which just highlights even more issues of this ability existing on the site, namely the fact that your argument relies on us assuming all users of Holy Manip have the same inherent capability to abuse a weakness, when it just doesn't work like that out of a lack of proper criteria to begin with.

I'm sure an extremely fruitful, engaging, interesting and very, very lengthy conversation could be had regarding the specifics of how this equalizes, preferably somewhere else. Also reiligional and deitical aren't real words.

It's nothing beyond a glorified category as said before, it'd have to be removed as I've said before on the other thread, I'm aware it'd be a ton of work, but that'd be the case as well for several other proposed pages to remove, and given that was the only thing keeping this on the site... yeah, I'd heavily support deleting it.
Cases that relied on this for some specified powers can stand on their own, or at worst would just require being updated with their own CRT, there's precedent with this kind of deletions like how type 3 Abstract Existence went.

You can claim that it is but that doesn't really make it such. It covers a specific power, one that you haven't offered an alternative for. It's staying.

Now that I think about it, Bob, you're not staff, why are you even commenting here? Have you even asked anyone for permission?

 

[Bobsican]

Blessed is completely unrelated, don't bring it up.

Quite the contrary, gotta just quote the page:

Due its connotations, it can most frequently be found on characters based on the Christian faith or some other application, such as Angels, Monotheistic Gods, Saints, Crusaders, Priests.

Wielding a force from a godly being falls quite well in Blessed's criteria:

Blessed refers to a state in which the character in question is provided a boon by another being.

Now, note that this isn't even an inherent attribute required to have Holy Manip either, doing no favors, we no longer grant powers just because of the in-verse status of a character and what they grant, nor by their portrayal of mere "goodness", by that logic we may as well give Holy Manip to any character that's remotely considered a hero, which would quickly get messy as soon we get into subversions of that, let alone that meaning nothing on its own for our purposes.

I'm sure an extremely fruitful, engaging, interesting and very, very lengthy conversation could be had regarding the specifics of how this equalizes, preferably somewhere else. Also reiligional and deitical aren't real words.

No need to be mean with blatant sarcasm, but either way, that'd have to be handled case by case as usual. That doesn't change my point and I'm sure the intended meaning is understood.

You can claim that it is but that doesn't really make it such. It covers a specific power, one that you haven't offered an alternative for. It's staying.

By that logic we may as well not delete any power page, which this very thread directly opposes as a premise to begin with.

Now that I think about it, Bob, you're not staff, why are you even commenting here? Have you even asked anyone for permission?

The current standard of the subforum allow highly trusted members to comment on threads unless stated otherwise, and given I've helped remove unecessary power pages like Animated Shadow or even review verse-specific P&As standards, it'd be quite reasonable to claim I'd be of help here, especially as it's not like I'm derailing or anything

 

[Abstractions]

I could probably go through and give my opinion on some of these in a bit.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Quite the contrary, gotta just quote the page:


Wielding a force from a godly being falls quite well in Blessed's criteria:



Now, note that this isn't even an inherent attribute required to have Holy Manip either, doing no favors, we no longer grant powers just because of the in-verse status of a character and what they grant, nor by their portrayal of mere "goodness", by that logic we may as well give Holy Manip to any character that's remotely considered a hero, which would quickly get messy as soon we get into subversions of that, let alone that meaning nothing on its own for our purposes.


No need to be mean with blatant sarcasm, but either way, that'd have to be handled case by case as usual. That doesn't change my point and I'm sure the intended meaning is understood.


By that logic we may as well not delete any power page, which this very thread directly opposes as a premise to begin with.


The current standard of the subforum allow highly trusted members to comment on threads unless stated otherwise, and given I've helped remove unecessary power pages like Animated Shadow or even review verse-specific P&As standards, it'd be quite reasonable to claim I'd be of help here, especially as it's not like I'm derailing or anything

I have restored Bob's comment.

Currently, while our staff thread rules are being revised, we have this note for staff threads:

Discussios regarding important wiki projects, policy or explanation page revisions and controversial revisions.

Board activity is allowed for VS Battles wiki staff and highly trusted members only, unless stated otherwise. Derailing is heavily discouraged.

—here

Bob is noted down as one of our knowledgeable members for verses powers and abilities here and has made numerous revisions for power pages in the past (most notably our treatment of hax abilities overall). As such, his input is highly valuable.

A courtesy can be extended in this case imo. (I guess I'm giving him permission lol)

However, for the future, @Bobsican , do indeed ask for permission to have things completely set.

 

[Armorchompy]

Quite the contrary, gotta just quote the page:


Wielding a force from a godly being falls quite well in Blessed's criteria:

Blessed is being removed because it's basically just power bestowal, the issue with it is completely unrelated to this discussion.

Now, note that this isn't even an inherent attribute required to have Holy Manip either, doing no favors, we no longer grant powers just because of the in-verse status of a character and what they grant, nor by their portrayal of mere "goodness", by that logic we may as well give Holy Manip to any character that's remotely considered a hero, which would quickly get messy as soon we get into subversions of that, let alone that meaning nothing on its own for our purposes.

Here you say "by that logic" and then proceed to follow a train of thought that's completely unrelated to what everyone else is arguing, I can't really counter the fact that this thing you made up in your head is indeed true, but it isn't exactly relevant.

No need to be mean with blatant sarcasm, but either way, that'd have to be handled case by case as usual. That doesn't change my point and I'm sure the intended meaning is understood.

Your point is that it's case by case. That means that there are cases in which it's valid. That is not an argument for deletion.

By that logic we may as well not delete any power page, which this very thread directly opposes as a premise to begin with.

Yes we definitely shouldn't delete pages for powers that we don't otherwise have any means of indexing, that's pretty ******* obvious. (And doesn't cover any other power that's being discussed here, so no, "by that logic" we would still delete certain power pages)

The current standard of the subforum allow highly trusted members to comment on threads unless stated otherwise, and given I've helped remove unecessary power pages like Animated Shadow or even review verse-specific P&As standards, it'd be quite reasonable to claim I'd be of help here, especially as it's not like I'm derailing or anything

You do not get to claim you're "highly trusted" on your own. You've been granted permission, but in the future follow the rules rather than assuming you're above them.

 

[Bobsican]

Blessed is being removed because it's basically just power bestowal, it's an unrelated issue.

Part of Holy Manip's (potential) barebones criteria is what boils down to being a victim of Power Bestowal, indeed, which is why I've highlighted how Blessed being deleted setting even more precedent overall to remove it as well.

Here you say "by that logic" and then proceed to follow a train of thought that's completely unrelated to what everyone else is arguing, I can't really counter the fact that this thing you made up in your head is indeed wrong, but it isn't exactly relevant.

My point is to show how there isn't really any criteria for a character to have Holy Manip beyond either their powers being stated to be related to a benevolent god/deity (and the force being "positive"), or just a mystical force inherently alligned with good, the whole issue with Holy Manip is not that it "lacks" users, but rather how it can't be defined as at best we're granting powers to characters out of nowhere on the assumption anything that's "holy" inherently purifies from evilness and whatever, which in itself is way too vague for a P&A as is.

At best the power would have to be removed and then only given if it consistently shows certain abilities, but it'd be easier to just define such qualities per character with other P&As we already have, just like how Hellfire Manip got removed.

Your point is that it's case by case. That means that there are cases in which it's valid. That is not an argument for deletion.

And neither is an argument for it staying, cases that'd qualify would have to have the exact same attributes without just assuming so by the mere name/moral portrayal, at which point quickly reduces cases that'd be valid for that quite a good amount, as at that point we wouldn't need to verse equalizing anymore.

Yes we definitely shouldn't delete pages for powers that we don't otherwise have any means of indexing, that's pretty ******* obvious. (And doesn't cover any other power that's being discussed here, so no, "by that logic" we would still delete certain power pages)

Not everything is a notable thing to index, is Spongebob being yellow a notable attribute to list in P&As just because a character can theoretically have an irrational weakness of the color? No? Same here.

As said before, Holy Manip is just a glorified category, it grants absolutely no P&As on its own as far the standards on the site go, just like how we don't give a character Soul Manip by using fire from hell anymore (hint, Hellfire Manip), I can confirm that much as I was the one that removed it, in fact.

You do not get to claim you're "highly trusted" on your own. You've been granted permission, but in the future follow the rules rather than assuming you're above them.

Well, I manually gained the reputation of greatly helping around the site on topics often pertaining P&As, there's no need to assume I had ill intent here, but I'll agree on just asking a staff for permission to avoid misunderstandings like this.

Anyways, my overall verdict in my opinion? Holy Manipulation has even less of a reason to stay than Hellfire Manip, Hellfire Manip at least had the inherent (and redundant) attribute of including Fire Manip by definition, while Holy Manip is just a glorified category with vague criteria that anything with a mystical "good" force qualifies for.

Also, I think it may be worthwile to let others evaluate this at this point, the discussion on this topic in particular has gone for quite a while, and I'm sure you can agree on that.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Holy Manipulation is fine because imo it has inherit properties unlike what Bob says
It's just a very specific interaction, and in vs threads you'd want to debate over how it goes first

But as someone who mainly works on D&D I see use in this power

 

[Antvasima]

"Small" you say, when unlike other pages, Breath Attack cannot be automatically replaced by redirects, since there are many types of breath.

This means we would have to go through each page to remove Breath Attack.

This would be a better link to use:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Breath_Attack?namespace=0&limit=1240

But nevertheless, yes, your point is well taken. We already have a number of other important revisions to handle, so I am not sure if we genuinely gain anything from this much likely unnecessary work.

 

[Antvasima]

It would still be assumed to work on characters from other verses who have shown a weakness to holy stuff, even if in-verse that never comes up. There's still relevance to it.

Also, you still haven't addressed what that power should be indexed as if Holy Manip is deleted. It's not damage boost, it's not (always) fire/pain/death manipulation, it's not (always) durability negation, if it isn't Holy Manipulation when what is it?

I agree that holy manipulation should preferably be kept.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the power pages that I think might be merged into other pages and then turned into redirect links are the following.

Awakened Power
Chaos Manipulation
Crystal Manipulation
Damage Reduction
Empowerment
Madness Manipulation
Morality Manipulation
Rage Power
Sand Manipulation
Sense Manipulation
Time Stop

The ones that might be removed are the following, but it is far more difficult to remove all such links than to create a single redirect link, so it is uncertain if this is realistic to apply.

Blessed
Breath Attack
Ectoplasm Manipulation
Unholy Manipulation

I am uncertain which option that is best for the following page.

Organic Manipulation

However, despite what I posted above, I do not consider this to at all be a prioritised wiki structure revision project for our community, especially as I have been talking with Fandom staff members about trying to greatly improve our Search Engine Optimisation results, and thereby overall visitor statistics, which would require application of some sort of infoboxes to our pages.

The ones that are blatantly redundant duplicates, such as sense manipulation, can probably get a redirect link though.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I guess I'll try to give some debate for ectoplasm manipulation given DP characters have it. In Danny Phantom ectoplasm is a literally energy/substence that all ghosts are made out of (like other ghosts in different works, Ghostbusters comes to minds) and they can manipulate their forms becuse of it, and with it literally being their power source. It's a substance that can be used to construct objects, project it, and they can change it's properties into different elements. To remove ectoplasm manipulation we'd need another energy that would allow them to do this otherwise the a core fundamental power of the verses that use it gets nuked. But it already seems more staff agree with it's removal so it's whatever. I guess so long as physiology pages exist that explain it's connection with the verse exist the power can be removed even though I disagree with it.

I'm fine with Time Stop being merged into Time Manipulation and I can agree with some of the others.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah we should lmao. It’s way easier and simpler to just do [[Time Manipulation|Time Stop]] or Limited [[Time Manipulation]]. Same with anything else

 

[KLOL506]

Always wondered what Sense Manip counted for. Would it be a byproduct of Status Effect Inducement?

 

[Arkenis]

Always wondered what Sense Manip counted for. Would it be a byproduct of Status Effect Inducement?

It is like a combination of bio manip and body control.

 

[Armorchompy]

perception manip

 

[Antvasima]

So what do you all currently think that we should do here?

 

[Zaratthustra]

I think as a first would be to see what all people agreed on, delete or fusion said Abilities then see which pages are affected.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can somebody write a summary please?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Bump

 

[Tllmbrg]

Bump

 

[ImmortalDread]

Okay. Can somebody write a summary please?

Bump

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like we will keep most of the mentioned pages, but we might be able to merge together the more redundant ones, such as time stop with time manipulation.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well we can always take our time with this and go over them individually. Pretty much everyone seems to favor merging Time Stop into Time Manipulation so we can just deal with that first, then move on to the next.