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Should we reduce how many Power pages we have?
- Thread starter Tllmbrg
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- power and abilities
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Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
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I don't think that really abates the confusion that might arise out of my incessant want for better classifications. I'll think about my opinion on more well-established pages some more, but I think more obscure sub-functions of other powers can absolutely be deleted without much confusion- a common example that has been coming up is Time Travel, I think that can 100% be deleted and changed to just Time Manipulation where it appears on pages.
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I almost read that as SCP
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- Thread starter
- #44
As much as the masses clammer for it, we are not deleting SCP today
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I don't really agree with the most of the thread tbh aside from a few examples. IMO, I once again think this is another one of those "Attempts to fix something that isn't broken." I do agree that there exist some powers that are too oddly specific sub-powers of some abilities and some that are often too general. But I don't think getting rid of elemental manipulation is something we need to do; some characters have Elemental manipulation as a general power within a verse with stuff like water, fire, earth, and air being subpowers of those. And some characters have more advanced levels of elemental manipulation in which they can essentially bend anything with atoms or molecules in it. I know some see that as matter manipulation but it's not like they split atoms/molecules just bend entire substances like sand, dirt, water, hydrogen, nitrogen, ect.
Likewise, even water manipulation also has multiple subpowers such as Ice Manipulation, Steam Manipulation, and Blood Manipulation. But some of those individually also have some notable distinct differences to be their own thing and have their own profiles for. So I would advise against getting rid of general abilities such as elemental manipulation. But oddly specific ones such as sand manipulation, mud manipulation and stuff can be linked as just sub powers of Earth manipulation. But I feel like Metal Manipulation also can be generalized and share it's own differences from Earth Manipulation, so I think that could stay. Not sure about Crystal Manipulation as some people can bend diamonds, rubies, sapphires and also crystals not from Earth. Like what if someone specially had Kryptonite manipulation, what would that fall into and/or would that have its own page as a verse specific power?
Also, I think it's easier if the smaller unnecessary powers such as like sand manipulation were attempted to be removed via their own individual threads rather than a big general one. If Superhuman Physical Characteristics is rejected, then it's not going to be proposed again. As for things like Peak Human Physical characteristics, Genius Intellect, and Nigh-Omniscience, the former two could make various 9-C and below profiles more barebones tbh if all they have is limited street smarts and carry a knife and a gun. I don't want to reduce some of those profiles to "None notable" on powers and abilities section, nor do I want to get too picky about nuking our 9-C and below character profiles. So I am leaning towards keeping those abilities as well. But for the love of pong, I support getting rid of our FTL page. Very few characters actually list that on their ability regardless of them having those as their stats, it's something we only really give to space ships which can be covered in both the flight ability and its travel speed rating. And as for other "But it shows scientific processes of FTL travel such as Space-Time shenanigans or Hypersleep stuff" that's just Space-Time distortion and/or dimensional travel too.
Likewise, even water manipulation also has multiple subpowers such as Ice Manipulation, Steam Manipulation, and Blood Manipulation. But some of those individually also have some notable distinct differences to be their own thing and have their own profiles for. So I would advise against getting rid of general abilities such as elemental manipulation. But oddly specific ones such as sand manipulation, mud manipulation and stuff can be linked as just sub powers of Earth manipulation. But I feel like Metal Manipulation also can be generalized and share it's own differences from Earth Manipulation, so I think that could stay. Not sure about Crystal Manipulation as some people can bend diamonds, rubies, sapphires and also crystals not from Earth. Like what if someone specially had Kryptonite manipulation, what would that fall into and/or would that have its own page as a verse specific power?
Also, I think it's easier if the smaller unnecessary powers such as like sand manipulation were attempted to be removed via their own individual threads rather than a big general one. If Superhuman Physical Characteristics is rejected, then it's not going to be proposed again. As for things like Peak Human Physical characteristics, Genius Intellect, and Nigh-Omniscience, the former two could make various 9-C and below profiles more barebones tbh if all they have is limited street smarts and carry a knife and a gun. I don't want to reduce some of those profiles to "None notable" on powers and abilities section, nor do I want to get too picky about nuking our 9-C and below character profiles. So I am leaning towards keeping those abilities as well. But for the love of pong, I support getting rid of our FTL page. Very few characters actually list that on their ability regardless of them having those as their stats, it's something we only really give to space ships which can be covered in both the flight ability and its travel speed rating. And as for other "But it shows scientific processes of FTL travel such as Space-Time shenanigans or Hypersleep stuff" that's just Space-Time distortion and/or dimensional travel too.
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I kinda agree with Bambu's take that it might be confusing to delete certain "important" P&A, I think that should be kept in mind
Also I have on occasion used SPC to cover things that it normally doesn't, such as "Has a heart rate of 8 bpm and genetic makeup unknown to modern science" or "Capable of operating normally on a planet with an atmosphere with an oxygen level of 12%, while anything below 19.5% is dangerous to humans". So, that's another use for it.
Also I have on occasion used SPC to cover things that it normally doesn't, such as "Has a heart rate of 8 bpm and genetic makeup unknown to modern science" or "Capable of operating normally on a planet with an atmosphere with an oxygen level of 12%, while anything below 19.5% is dangerous to humans". So, that's another use for it.
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Yeah, that's another thing, Superhuman Physical Characteristics isn't limited to raw stats, but also physiology related stuff such as being more resistant to internal organ damaging compared to regular humans.
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I personally do not mind incorporating the relevant information in the Immortality Negation page into a sub-section of Power Nullification and turning Immortality Negation into a redirect link.
The same goes for Fear Manipulation being merged into Emotion Manipulation, as it is such a blatant example.
We definitely shouldn't go overboard in that regard though. Just the few most extremely redundant pages should be merged at most.
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Hmm. That is such a common and specific ability that I am very uncertain, as it is easy for our visitors to misunderstand and think that characters have much more impressive and extensive abilities than they actually have if we list time manipulation in their pages for such a limited reason.
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Aura is a nigh-useless page, can be extended to people that simply glow. It's not a power, it's just a way that a power can be used. It doesn't deserve its own page as everything the page can do can be done by just saying "Fire Aura" on the page. Everybody understands what an Aura is, nobody needs a page that's basically just there to say what it CAN be used for.
Alternate Future Display is a sub-power that is effectively just Precog/Clairvoyance + telepathy. It's an extremely uncommon ability, a sub-power of Time Manip, and isn't even really a power of its own. It's "I can see alternate timelines and I can show them to you". That is unworthy of its own page.
Chaos Manipulation is just a special name for some character's probability manip and/or magic. Manipulating "chaos" does nothing inherently. It's either some form of destructive Probability Manipulation, or just pretty much powerful destructive magic. Some characters just use "chaos" to pretty much warp reality, like Arthur Pendragon from NNT.
Also, I'm not sure if we should delete BFR. It's there for VSbattles purposes. It's to say "this character has the ability to remove a potential opponent from the battlefield", which isn't super important in terms of indexing, but it simplifies things for VSbattles matches. You can just say they have BFR without having to say they have Teleportation which can be used on others. It's not necessary for indexing, but that's not really the point of the ability. After all, we're not JUST an indexing website.
Tllmbrg gave me permission to post on this thread.
Alternate Future Display is a sub-power that is effectively just Precog/Clairvoyance + telepathy. It's an extremely uncommon ability, a sub-power of Time Manip, and isn't even really a power of its own. It's "I can see alternate timelines and I can show them to you". That is unworthy of its own page.
Chaos Manipulation is just a special name for some character's probability manip and/or magic. Manipulating "chaos" does nothing inherently. It's either some form of destructive Probability Manipulation, or just pretty much powerful destructive magic. Some characters just use "chaos" to pretty much warp reality, like Arthur Pendragon from NNT.
Also, I'm not sure if we should delete BFR. It's there for VSbattles purposes. It's to say "this character has the ability to remove a potential opponent from the battlefield", which isn't super important in terms of indexing, but it simplifies things for VSbattles matches. You can just say they have BFR without having to say they have Teleportation which can be used on others. It's not necessary for indexing, but that's not really the point of the ability. After all, we're not JUST an indexing website.
Tllmbrg gave me permission to post on this thread.
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I wish.
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I agree with Medeus' reasoning here.
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Okay, but that was just for a single relevant post. No further comments are necessary.
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1. Yeah, understandable. WE already have explanations for what Peak Human is.
2. Yeah, this makes sense.
3. Okay, this one. I should bring up the fact that Popeye himself brought that into the battlefield (him punching the storyboard artist), plus Looney Tunes character had attempted such at least in the Duck Amuck-type episodes.
4. Yes.
5. Yes.
6. Yes.
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Well, to be specific, it's not quite the same as Precognition though could be similar to Clairvoyance. Precognition means having knowledge of the future, and alternate future display simply means being able to see images of other futures and/or timelines. But not everyone who has it is able to use it for combat applicable purposes. Some people just have computer projections that can show them images of alternate futures, but cannot predict which future is the most likely outcome just from looking at them.
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Blessed is just being bestowed an ability by a deity, which isn’t really a power of its own. It’s essentially just listing cases of characters that received abilities via Power Bestowal but with the useless distinction that they got their powers from a god.
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Supernatural Luck just Probability Manipulation?
For the record I’m against axing Superhuman Physical Characteristics. Expanding it to include superhuman physiological abilities besides strength/durability/speed would be more ideal.
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Supernatural Luck just Probability Manipulation?
I think this is notable enough to keep around for indexing. Not being applicable to versus matches isn’t a valid reason for deletion afaik as long as the power isn’t redundant.
For the record I’m against axing Superhuman Physical Characteristics. Expanding it to include superhuman physiological abilities besides strength/durability/speed would be more ideal.
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Disagree with deletion of Superhuman physical characteristics as a lot of pages have just that as they may be just a bit stronger but its not a weapon user, or a martial arts master to fit for a power. Then you'll have the situation of no power to be linked in the Powers and Abilities section. Take Gregor Clegane, he's strong and can wield a sword, but if he wouldn't use one, no power would be left on his page. There are a lot of pages that could be like this.
In rest, I agree with Bambu.
In rest, I agree with Bambu.
Mr. Bambu
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The beauty lies in the explanation, one feels, as much as it does for any other ability. We would list Mind Manipulation for both outright control of an individual, inserting compulsions to act a certain way, or dealing some equivalent of "mental damage". Similarly we would classify as Soul Manipulation the ability to remove souls, damage them, or control another entity via it somehow.
Time travel is a Bad Page, and definitely a prime example of what, in my opinion, could do with slimming down without confusing too many people.
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We have a Fire Manipulation page which can range to limited examples such as being able to produce/generate fire without controlling it and the true ability to bend fire. Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation are the same in that regard as Bambu explained.
Yeah, our time travel might need some rewritings; and I think we could elaborate the difference between having Time Travel and a character having Immeasurable speed. I know we have explanations on the speed page, but I think it's also worth mentioning how one can get "Time travel via running through time" without getting Immeasurable speed. As AKM has mentioned some characters have Immeasurable flight speeds that don't scale to combat speed which should be treated as just them having time travel rather than giving speed for it.
Yeah, our time travel might need some rewritings; and I think we could elaborate the difference between having Time Travel and a character having Immeasurable speed. I know we have explanations on the speed page, but I think it's also worth mentioning how one can get "Time travel via running through time" without getting Immeasurable speed. As AKM has mentioned some characters have Immeasurable flight speeds that don't scale to combat speed which should be treated as just them having time travel rather than giving speed for it.
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Heavily disagree with petrification. Empathic and fear hax getting removed, there’s a lot of series that has a distinguished trait with these abilities that they might as well have their own page.
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I still mostly agree with Medeus here.
I suppose that a few of our powers and abilities pages might be reasonable to merge into other pages and then turn into redirect links, such as Blessed, Fear Manipulation, and maybe Immortality Negation, but most of them should preferably stay rather than be removed for no actual gain for ourselves or our visitors.
Also, we should preferably be careful to not add any more redundant such pages from this point onwards, as that constitutes a lot of unnecessary work.
I suppose that a few of our powers and abilities pages might be reasonable to merge into other pages and then turn into redirect links, such as Blessed, Fear Manipulation, and maybe Immortality Negation, but most of them should preferably stay rather than be removed for no actual gain for ourselves or our visitors.
Also, we should preferably be careful to not add any more redundant such pages from this point onwards, as that constitutes a lot of unnecessary work.
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- Thread starter
- #62
Is Blessed even a noteworthy ability
It's literally "Someone else gives me abilities"
Also Immortality Negation was made yesterday, it most certainly can be deleted, and as mentioned before Fear manipulation is just an egregious example of redundant seperation so
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Aside from a few outdated and low quality pages with hardly any useful information, I really don't see the point of this, I guess we're doing fandom a favor by lowering the stress on their servers, even if by a minuscule amount.
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Blessed is more so a state of being ability in which one has been amped by a character with Power Bestowal.
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Immortality Negation and Blessed I agree with removing because they are just mediums of other powers.
However, Petrification is not a medium. It is a full blown power and it doesn't need to be removed.
I believe our problem currently is differentiating between what is actually a power, and what is merely a medium for a power. Blessed is not a power, it is the state of having a power bestowed upon you. Petrification is a power that is very much distinct enough to warrant a page by itself.
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Yeah, I wasn't arguing against the removal of Blessed, only mentioning what it was. It just means someone who was amped by another character who has Power Bestowal and not a power in itself.
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Supernatural luck just increases character luck not necessarily specific in smth or in the characters control, it's just limited to that. Probability manp allows one to manipulate probability of occurring smth as they want, either to increase or decrease the probability of occuring smth, number of probable attacks, etc and specific to actions and in their control unlike supernatural luck. So they're too different.
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These are the ones I think should be deleted (and, in some cases, collapsed into other pages). All of these I think have 0 reason to exist. It's pure page bloat. I have, however, bolded the ones that I find particularly egregious.
If pages are good and properly explain what a character can do, any confusion that would be created by collapsing these pages together will be prevented. We should avoid making more shitty pages when we can just shore up the shitty ones we already have. Focus on making good pages and don't rely on every minute power variation having a page to reference.
With this in mind, people are seriously underusing Statistics Amplification. Any buff to any stat or ability can easily be covered by Statistics Amplification; we have like 5 variations on that power alone.
Superhuman Physical Characteristics and Peak Human Characteristics have reasons to exist. They're useful for reference.
- Alternate Future Display (Illusions and/or Precog)
- Aura (Nothing power)
- Awakened Power (Redundant due to Statistics Amplification)
- Blessed (Nothing power)
- Breath Attack (A way of using a power, not a power itself)
- Broadway Force (Nothing power)
- Chaos Manipulation (No inherent meaning, too abstract to quantify in general terms)
- Corruption (Either Mind Manipulation or Body Puppetry or poison or etc.; nothing in itself)
- Damage Boost (Technically different from Statistics Amplification, but it doesn't have to be, just make it so that Statistics Amplification can be more short-term and specific)
- Damage Reduction (See above, even more redundant due to Resistance)
- Deconstruction (Matter Manipulation)
- Ectoplasm Manipulation (Meaningless on its own for similar reasons to Chaos Manipulation; no inherent meaning or use)
- Empowerment (Redundant due to Statistics Amplification)
- Energy Projection (Just collapse it into Energy Manipulation)
- Madness Manipulation (This is Mind Manipulation)
- Morality Manipulation (This also is Mind Manipulation, or maybe Conceptual Manipulation on a high level)
- Organic Manipulation (Covered just fine by Biological and Matter Manipulation)
- Purification (This is mostly just Healing)
- Rage Power (Redundant due to Statistics Amplification)
- Reconstruction (Matter Manipulation)
- Sense Manipulation (Collapse into Perception Manipulation, or the other way around)
- Time Stop (Time Manipulation, duh)
- Unholy Manipulation (While Holy Manipulation has some reason to exist, as much as I dislike it, this is an even more nebulous concept better covered by Darkness and Death)
If pages are good and properly explain what a character can do, any confusion that would be created by collapsing these pages together will be prevented. We should avoid making more shitty pages when we can just shore up the shitty ones we already have. Focus on making good pages and don't rely on every minute power variation having a page to reference.
With this in mind, people are seriously underusing Statistics Amplification. Any buff to any stat or ability can easily be covered by Statistics Amplification; we have like 5 variations on that power alone.
Superhuman Physical Characteristics and Peak Human Characteristics have reasons to exist. They're useful for reference.
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It's neither of those. It's projecting something, which isn't covered by precog, and isn't an illusion.
I definitely disagree with Aura being removed, it can be used for characters whose presence is felt by everyone in a supernatural way, characters who glow with energy or light, and a couple of other things, it's not a "nothing" power.
Awakened Power has a different mechanic from Stat Amp, the latter is at will, might as well collapse every single other Reactive Evo, Empowerment and the like into it by that logic. (Which apparently you plan to do but like, don't)
Not really, it's forcing people to dance, it's not a lot but it's something. Could be listed under Body Puppetry, though.
Absolutely disagree, there's a lot of examples in fiction that don't fall under any of the above, at least entirely.
No that's literally wrong, you're not boosting your statistics, you're boosting/reducing the damage that's dealt, that's a different thing and is often achieved through different methods, such as technique or just straight-up increasing the damage itself. Resistance also is just a completely different thing.
One specific, very notable and common type of it, that mandates a different type of resistance from other kinds of Matter Manip.
Yeah I have no idea why this exists lol
There's three types, and the third doesn't fall under any other P&A we have.
No it isn't, something like spitting out metric tons of pus on enemies is neither of the above.
It's literally just a different thing and includes way more things than Healing reasonably would
This is literally the same as taking any haxy P&A and saying "it's just reality warping, delete it", without even considering the specifics of it, just because it technically can be covered by another doesn't mean it can't exist on its own. It also isn't always Matter Manip, it can also be Time Manip or other abilities.
That said, Immortality Negation sucks and should be deleted.
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Plenty of pages already treat Statistics Amplification as conditional. Reactive Evolution has other properties, as does Adaptation.
Specify on the character page then. As it is, Corruption is a power that varies completely based on the verse, making a general page for it pointless; there is no standard.
It fits under Mind Manipulation. It's still affecting your Mind. It's just a different vector.
Fair point.
Then list it as those other abilities. You're just making more of a case for Reconstruction to not exist, you realize that, right? 'This power isn't actually anything itself, it's just an application of other powers, and therefore has no reason to exist'.
Bobsican
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Actually, it doesn't, Holy Manipulation is too broad and what constitutes as "holy" in the first place is too abstract for our purposes, the only reason it wasn't removed was because plenty of pages use it and it'd be an issue to remove it, but if we're going to delete several other pages, I may as well remind that this is easily in the chopping block as well.
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I considered suggesting it but 'holy' is a common enough concept in RPGs that I backed off on it.
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As Armorchompy mentioned above, it is fairly distinctive and specific, so I think that we should keep it.
Technically agreed, but it would require massive amounts of work to remove it from all pages that link to it, as a redirect link would not be created.
Agreed. A redirect link should be created.
Agreed, but see above.
Agreed.
Disagreed. It is a prominent specific power within musical shows and the like, and doesn't cause any harm to keep.
Agreed.
Disagreed. It is a very common ability for demonic entities, eldritch abominations, and the like within fiction.
I am uncertain about this one.
Probably agreed.
It is a very distinctive ability and it doesn't cause any harm to keep it in order to be much more specific, so disagreed.
Agreed.
Probably agreed.
Uncertain. Energy manipulation is far more versatile, and I much prefer to avoid misunderstandings in this regard.
Probably agreed.
Probably agreed.
I don't remember the supposed specifics of this power well, so I am uncertain, but probably agreed strictly going by the names.
Disagreed. It is also a very prominent concept within fiction and spirituality.
Agreed.
Uncertain. It seems quite like a rather useful specification, but probably agreed.
Probably agreed. Perception Manipulation is a better wording i.m.h.o. though.
Limited time manipulation, yes.
The relevant parts of this can probably be covered by corruption instead, so agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
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Bobsican
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I mean, hellfire manip is a very common thing on fiction but it was removed as it was generalizing attributes to fire with hell flavor, and in the end it just got removed out of that.
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I can more or less accept Ant's take on what should stay and not of my thoughts. I don't care to argue about this any more.
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Well, the main issue here is that the redundant power pages that would not be turned into redirect links would require a lot of work to remove.
Do we have any volunteers among our content moderators and administrators in this regard?
Do we have any volunteers among our content moderators and administrators in this regard?
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Holy has actual properties you can associate with it though, generally I use it for anything that damages undead or demonic beings, that kind of stuff, we don't really have another power for chucking holy water at a ghoul and it spontaneously melting or catching fire. Hellfire is just fire, with possibly some form of hax sometimes associated with it
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Mr. Bambu
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Broadly speaking I agree with Prom, and have even briefly spoken on this shared hatred for our current trend of page bloat with her some time in the past. I think a couple of these are more acceptable than others, and a couple I have borne incomprehensible, unreasonable distaste for since their conception (Organic Manipulation).
I will say that I think Damage Reduction has more of an argument for it than some are saying, but that's largely because how it works in D&D (my Sisyphean Verse) would not really qualify for Stat Amp.
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