Should Souls be default and also Medaka Box and Spirituality

[Agnaa]

I/O and some other verses have souls as a digital, not a spiritual concepts. Would they have the kind of souls you people say are on by default? Ripping the digital imprint out of somebody wouldn't really do anything lol

If their souls being digital has a good reason to change how soul manip world work, then it's different.

idk what you mean by "The kind of souls you people say are on by default", there is no one consistent kind of soul that every character would have by default, it depends on how soul manip works in the verses both characters are from.

 

[Wokistan]

What if your soul is just straight up made of death?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

What if your soul is composed of tones and syllables?

Not sure what that would look like, but sounds like some crazy stuff lol

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Idek. Other things outside of the basic are beyond my expertise, for lack of a better word.

 

[Ryukama]

"Even if I was, the one interpretation is still the majority of the world. Say I was supporting a view of the monotheistic, Abrahamic religions. That's 31.5% of the planet. Islam is another 23.2%. That alone is over 50% of the world."

You're not fully following either Christianity or Islam's belief on this though. Also you can't follow both Christianity and Islam's belief because they totally go against each other in many regards, including the topic of souls and afterlives. Also if why should Christianity and Islam be assumed to apply to a Tibetian story if we're going by this method? Not even half a percent of Tibetians believe in either Christianity or Islam.

">Burden of proof

If you were in ancient Greece or earlier, apply burden of proof that the sun revolves around the earth, or that the earth was flat (which, as you weren't getting, is BEFORE we knew for a fact of heliocentrism and globes). You couldn't. That didn't stop that being the default assumption for everything at the time."

So because Greecians thousands of years ago got astronomy wrong, we just discard burden of proof and believe in things with zero evidence behind them? With what we currently know and are capable of observing, there's no evidence for souls. Of course people are free to believe in souls IRL, but they can't be assumed to be true for the same reasons things that have been demonstrably and objectively proven like brains and round earth are.

"It literally doesn't matter. Everything after what I said doesn't impact how soul manipulation would affect them."

But again, the whole idea is we need to assume soul manipulation by default works on every character in fiction to appeal to the fact that most people believe in souls, only to then completely defy the way most people believe in souls. You say we have to accomodate to majority belief with our methods while applying methods that go against majority belief.

 

[Agnaa]

Bumping this, do SCP-3043's and Monika's abilities just not work against anyone not from their own verses?

Buried 15 posts deep now, bumping again.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Before I continue, elaborate on these methods that go "against majority belief".

 

[Chartate101]

If we for some reason treat souls based on the users beliefs, then how the **** would composite human work?

 

[Wokistan]

As a concept, what do people think of the idea of assuming a verse follows the spirotuity/whatever of the author in lieu of any explicit mentions or other cultural/religious influences within the work?

Not sure it's the best idea myself, but it would be a possible compromise if nothing is worked out otherwise. Still disagree with defaulting to souls, though.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If we for some reason treat souls based on the users beliefs, then how the **** would composite human work?

C O M P O S I T E S O U L

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

As a concept, what do people think of the idea of assuming a verse follows the spirotuity/whatever of the author in lieu of any explicit mentions or other cultural/religious influences within the work?

Not sure it's the best idea myself, but it would be a possible compromise if nothing is worked out otherwise. Still disagree with defaulting to souls, though.

That was always kind of my belief.

 

[Wokistan]

Irl files won't be treated as having souls, cal already agreed to that above.

CH just gets whatever possible composite aspect would be useful to it so it's weird but generally, not having one is most advantageous.

 

[Ryukama]

Before I continue, elaborate on these methods that go "against majority belief".

No matter what interpretation of a soul you go with, even Christianity or Islam's (because you can't go with both since they disagree with each other here), you're going against majority belief because the majority of soul believers will disagree with whatever interpretation you use. And if you're using a method of a soul that doesn't entirely comply with any religion, than you're going against all belief.

 

[GreyFang82]

You can accommodate majority belief by taking a secular stance on it. This is what happens in America, either all religion gets represented equally (which is a clustermess) or none of them are. But they do not push back on them.

The idea everything has a basic soul is also weird, it would have to be so vague it is nearly meaningless or so all encompassing that it contradicts itself.

 

[Nico-v11]

Isn't this whole thing getting overly complicated? Just treat souls like any other thing. Ki, Chi, Chakra, or literally ANYTHING else in fiction that some characters use in fights and stuff.

In Naruto some characters absorb the chakra of others and we still allow that despite the opposing character having never proved they had chakra. That's fine because of Verse Equalization.

Same concept with Souls. Unless proven that they don't have a soul then just let them be affected like how they would get affected by any other thing.

 

[Wokistan]

Actually with verse equalization we only equalize in the case of the verse having some comparable energy, and not absolutely anything.

 

[Nico-v11]

@Wokistan in my experience on this wiki that never happens that way.

 

[Agnaa]

Actually with verse equalization we only equalize in the case of the verse having some comparable energy, and not absolutely anything.

What about situations like SCP-3043 and Monika?

 

[Ryukama]

I'm offering my apologies if I have contributed to "derailing" this thread. However I don't think this is a bad thread. I think many people, especially some non-staff members, have made some incredibly compelling points in a civilized manner about a variety of different subject matters that are all entirely relevant to the topic at hand. I view that as a good thread. We don't always need to strictly follow protocol or "stay on track" if we're still having meaningful discussion here.

With that being said, I'm moving on from this thread. I said everything I have had to say and I procrastinated on studying for my finals for this. If this gets moved to a new thread sure. If anyone wants my thoughts on the topic, they are clearly laid out in this thread. Regardless of my thoughts, I completely respect the opinions of anyone else here and will respect whatever decision the majority comes to in this case. Cal can have the last word and if anyone wants to side by him I completely respect that. Bye guys.

 

[GreyFang82]

Actually with verse equalization we only equalize in the case of the verse having some comparable energy, and not absolutely anything.

Right, so if a character who is just super strong with no source of energy, or it is unknown if they have said energy, like Ki or Chakra they would be immune to basic genjutsu that directly target Chakra or energy.

Same thing should go with souls.

 

[AguilaR101]

Also some Ajimu's Skills seem to have refernces to "hell" "spirit" and "souls" so unless we are meant to believe she is refering to non-existent things within the verse they do confirm that the conception of those thing do in fact exist.

 

[Wokistan]

Agnaa tomorrow I can find you that thread, though I think you were in it. It's just pretty late for me.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Also some Ajimu's Skills seem to have refernces to "hell" "spirit" and "souls" so unless we are meant to believe she is refering to non-existent things within the verse they do confirm that the conception of those thing do in fact exist.

This wiki has decided that Ajimu's skills are not to be taken seriously with respect to the verse as a whole. I do not agree with the policy, but that is what stands

If we accept those, we also accept that their are multiple universes that are part of existence, that Kumagawa could erase

 

[Wokistan]

I guess I'll come up with something for those two by the time I find the thread.

 

[Agnaa]

What was the thread about?

 

[Wokistan]

Verse equalization, the one where kukuo and I sorta misunderstood the other the entire time

 

[AguilaR101]

This wiki has decided that Ajimu's skills are not to be taken seriously with respect to the verse as a whole. I do not agree with the policy, but that is what stands

If that's the stance that's commonly taken I don't see why we shouldn't do the same for the vague implications regarding lack of spirituality in the verse either.

 

[Agnaa]

Ahh yeah, I don't need a link to the thread, but what was the conclusion of that in regards to stuff like 3043 and Monika?

 

[GreyFang82]

Ahh yeah, I don't need a link to the thread, but what was the conclusion of that in regards to stuff like 3043 and Monika?

In which regard?

I have the thought that we should take a secular stance and therefore they shouldn't have souls unless there is evidence otherwise. Which I'm not sure how many people agree with me on that notion.

If you're asking if they get souls if we go with the "all things get souls by default" I don't know what to say.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If that's the stance that's commonly taken I don't see why we shouldn't do the same for the vague implications regarding lack of spirituality in the verse either.

1) It was a comedic Moment

2) There is a difference between an off handed mention in a long list and a grounding in a materialist world view. If you cannot see the difference between an author constucting a cosmology through various details and tossing it in a long list of powers then that is deeply concerning

 

[Agnaa]

SCP-3043's abilities rely on ordinary human minds to be like "stories in one's head" to work properly, or for people's lives to be stories that it can delete.

Monika's abilities rely on ordinary humans having filed which Monika can edit.

Both of these seem analogous to humans having souls that can be manipulated. So if souls are by default considered not to exist, 3043 and Monika won't be able to use most of their hax on almost any characters on the site, which seems super unfair.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Agnaa

If you want an even more complicated example, that works along the same lines, I/O has souls as basically your digital foot print

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

The way I see it, as it sounds to me, there really isn't anything conclusive about souls or the afterlife, if they exist. But, I don't like the thought of granting a characters from a verse the status of being souless unless it's directly proven. Just the characters doubt it or don't believe it isn't really enough for me.

I don't know, I may be rambling here. Medaka Box is friggin weird sometimes...

 

[Wokistan]

Classic SCP causing problems and being weird

 

[Wokistan]

Iap's comment is a direct quote, btw. So he's not directing the end part at you specifically.

 

[GreyFang82]

SCP-3043's abilities rely on ordinary human minds to be like "stories in one's head" to work properly, or for people's lives to be stories that it can delete.
Monika's abilities rely on ordinary humans having filed which Monika can edit.

Both of these seem analogous to humans having souls that can be manipulated. So if souls are by default considered not to exist, 3043 and Monika won't be able to use most of their hax on almost any characters on the site, which seems super unfair.

Stories in one's head can be interpreted as memories, the space and time the person takes up in the universe, or simply existence itself.

Same can kinda be said with Monika, her power can be sumed up as being able to manipulate the existence of a person. Personality changing can be sumed up with mind manipulation/morality and the physical function or existence is self explanatory.

 

[Agnaa]

The effect isn't important for immunities, the method is.

If someone inflicts death on you by showing you a picture, it wouldn't work on someone who can't see, since the method for the effect is impossible.

If 3043 tries to edit someone's mind that doesn't have stories,'then it can't work. If their existence isn't a story, they can't erase it. If Monika tries editing the file of someone who doesn't have a file, it can't work.

We'll either have to assume by default that these things exist, or that they don't exist. And that assumption should be the same for souls, game files, stories, or any quality of every normal person in a verse that gets manipulated.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Agnaa brings up a good point.

What do we do with characters from various fictions that don't deal with anything like what is presented? (Souls, stories, files, chakra, etc.) What standard do we use?

Does a character like John Wick get a pass because his fiction simply doesn't deal in anything like this?

 

[GreyFang82]

The effect isn't important for immunities, the method is.
If someone inflicts death on you by showing you a picture, it wouldn't work on someone who can't see, since the method for the effect is impossible.

If 3043 tries to edit someone's mind that doesn't have stories,'then it can't work. If their existence isn't a story, they can't erase it. If Monika tries editing the file of someone who doesn't have a file, it can't work.

We'll either have to assume by default that these things exist, or that they don't exist. And that assumption should be the same for souls, game files, stories, or any quality of every normal person in a verse that gets manipulated.

I do think they shouldn't be assumed. Here's my reasoning.

You can't assume someone has a save file if they aren't in a verse where game files exist, you can't assume someone has a soul because the verse may not have souls, and you can't assume everyone has chakra if they come from a verse where supernatural energy doesn't exist.

The story thing is kinda hard for me to grasp. Do you mean if someone isn't literally a part of a story it can't effect them?

But the point being, those shouldn't have special treatment nor should souls be assumed if the others are assumed instead. It may seem unfair, but logically speaking it makes sense. Data manipulation shouldn't be allowed to work on non robotic things, Soul manipulation shouldn't be allowed to work on things that don't have souls, and mind manipulation shouldn't be allowed to work on things without a mind.

It's an unfortunate thing but hax should have limits on what it effects by its very nature.

 

[GreyFang82]

Agnaa brings up a good point.
What do we do with characters from various fictions that don't deal with anything like what is presented? (Souls, stories, files, chakra, etc.) What standard do we use?

Does a character like John Wick get a pass because his fiction simply doesn't deal in anything like this?

John Wick should be immune to soul hax yes, literal people wouldn't be effected with data hax or other game hax. but he would still be susceptible to plot hax because his verse is literal fiction.

Funny enough plot hax should work in every verse except The Real World because the real world isn't a story.