Should Souls be default and also Medaka Box and Spirituality

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Characters which can modify "files" of ordinary people (Monika) can't use it in verses that don't mention people having files?

I need to make a thread about that.

 

[Agnaa]

I need to make a thread about that.

Do you think that Monika shouldn't automatically be able to affect people?

What do you think about a character that can "rewrite the stories in people's heads" to have mind/memory manip? Should this automatically work on verses that don't outright describe people's minds as stories?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

It shouldn't be a character, but it automatically working on verses that don't outright describe people's minds as stories is fine.

 

[Agnaa]

It is and should be a character because it's sentient and acts on its own.

Shouldn't something similar apply to Monika being able to automatically work on verses that don't outright describe people as having data files for themselves?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

The player and minor characters lack them.

 

[Agnaa]

Not ones that we see, but it's never stated that Monika can only affect the main 4, or that she can't affect anyone else.

It seems like just a case of the developer not having any ARG things to put for other characters. Not an indication of an actually relevant plot point or power limitation.

Monika does numerous things to the player and realizes that the player is "like her". Lacking a file wouldn't make the player like her, but something pretty different, right?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Fire and I looked into the Iihiko possession thing more. It is stated it isn't his soul being passed on, its his legend being passed down. The real thing dies and a double takes on his name, with his identity overwriting their's.

 

[PaChi2]

Fire and I looked into the Iihiko possession thing more. It is stated it isn't his soul being passed on, its his legend being passed down. The real thing dies and a double takes on his name, with his identity overwriting their's.

Iihiko preserves his memory across incarnations. Iihiko possessed Hansode's body. Iihiko later on after being destroyed shows up as "shadow of a hero". Its clearly not something like a new Iihiko is born everytime, its the same guy that reincarnates in another body. Iihiko es aware of the passage of time.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yes, him retaining his memories as his legend gets past down is no issue. Your interpretation is contradicted outright by the text, as the original Iihiko explicitly died long ago. I also see no implications of any kind of "reincarnation" whatsoever. I also see no issue with him perceiving the passage of time, as it does not contradict his identity and name over writing the previous's existence

Either way, the emphasis is on the analogue to oral traditions passing down legends of heroes from long ago. If you say that he transfers his conciousness, or overwrite their being, or takes over their body, or any of the other implications by the text, it is clearly not a soul

 

[PaChi2]

Do as you wish. Im out.

Peace.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

What about him still reappearing after his defeat at the hands of Hansode?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I would assume his identity was rejected from her, and then the original body was re assumed. I have no idea where the body went tho, lol

 

[Agnaa]

I would assume his identity was rejected from her, and then the original body was re assumed. I have no idea where the body went tho, lol

So resurrection is possible?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

That's not resurrection. Me taking my body and moving into another body, and then moving out of that body into the same body isn't resurrection

 

[Agnaa]

Ahh I see. But if he's moving between bodies, isn't that possession?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Technically yes, but it exists as the analogue of oral tradition, and is not soul based

And well, he over writes their character, so that is borderline

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think oral tradition still applies when forceably taking a character's body early, and then moving back to your old body. And it never says that it's not soul based. Maybe the 5000 years was an analogue for oral tradition, but that doesn't mean it's actually done through oral tradition, or that the switching back and forth is oral tradition.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It actually is stated that it functions by over writing their existence with iihiko's. Unless you artificially prescribe it as a soul based when it is stated to work on a completely different function, it is not soul based whatsoever. I'm not saying it is literally oral tradition, but it does it with a way that works to represent it. I would also add that the situation with Iihiko and shiranui is not the norm, so don't use that as the normal functionality for the power when he transfers early

 

[Agnaa]

Why can't you overwrite someone's existence with possession?

Just because it's an analogy for oral tradition doesn't mean that it can't be soul-based.

It isn't the normal functionality, but it's a possible functionality.

Overall I think this evidence for Medaka Box characters being soul hax immune is way too flimsy to be acceptable.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

My point is that its posession but not conventional posession. Point is, it isn't soul based

I already gave scans proving that it is overwrite, not merely taking over their body. They also say it is them passing down the legend as well. If it is anything other than just straight up existence overwrite, it would be closest to Oudo overwriting someone's mind with brain washing


I have already said that I do not think they should gain immunity. Also, simply because they lack souls doesn't mean the necessarily mean they are gonna get granted over write if the staff decides against that policy

 

[Agnaa]

My point is that its posession but not conventional posession. Point is, it isn't soul based

You haven't demonstrated that it's soul based, just that it's usually an analogy for oral tradition. That doesn't mean it can't be soul based.

I already gave scans proving that it is overwrite, not merely taking over their body. They also say it is them passing down the legend as well.

That doesn't mean it can't be soul based.

If it is anything other than just straight up existence overwrite, it would be closest to Oudo overwriting someone's mind with brain washing

That doesn't mean it can't be soul based. It being kind of similar to mind manip doesn't make it mind manip, and it doesn't mean it can't be soul based.

I have already said that I do not think they should gain immunity.

1. Even if you want resistance, that's too far for the evidence that's here.

2. Lacking a soul on this wiki always gives immunity. Either way, you'd be putting every character in Medaka Box on the same level as characters with direct undeniable evidence of lacking souls.

3. It's not about immunity or resistance. No matter what thing you're trying to add to a character's profile, AP, speed, ability, or resistance, if this was the evidence of it it would not be enough.

Also, simply because they lack souls doesn't mean the necessarily mean they are gonna get granted over write if the staff decides against that policy

I don't know what you mean by this.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

You haven't demonstrated that it's soul based, just that it's usually an analogy for oral tradition. That doesn't mean it can't be soul based.

I know, that isn't exclusively why, nor did I claim that was exclusively why. Don't strawman me. It plays into it.

That doesn't mean it can't be soul based.

If it was meerly soul based then the rest of the process that they go through would be meaningless. Wanna know the other reason why I know it isn't soul based? Because Hanten says what it is based o. He states that Its based on the double system, but to an even higher degree than what a double normally is. I hate to pull this on you, but when Hanten breaks down the entire double process and makes no mention of a soul being overwritten whatsoever, then the burden of proof falls to you. Oh, and by the way, turns out I was wrong. It technically isn't possession, because when Medaka refered to it as such, Iihiko mocked her and called her rude, saying that it was not possession.

That doesn't mean it can't be soul based. It being kind of similar to mind manip doesn't make it mind manip, and it doesn't mean it can't be soul based.

They meerly trace all aspects from the previous double who bares the name over and over and over for thousands of years. That is in no way soul based. Oh, and by the way. You know how you and Pachi had the issue with how Iihiko somehow moved back to his old body and seemed to keep or came back to life? Well, I looked into it more, and took another look at the Iihiko fight. Guess what I found out. Iihiko didn't survive, his old body losts its name, and went back to just being a regular shadow or double, albiet while still maintaining almost all of the atributes. The reason actual proper over write process gets rid of all the traits of the original. Zenkichi even points out that Iihiko pulling a tactic like swapping back to shiranui's personality is a tactic that shiranui would pull, and that he had not even properly over written her personality. What was once Shiranui inherited the name, but her body and mentality had not been over written to be completely Iihiko's. Iihiko died when Absolute destruction struck himself.

1. Even if you want resistance, that's too far for the evidence that's here.

2. Lacking a soul on this wiki always gives immunity. Either way, you'd be putting every character in Medaka Box on the same level as characters with direct undeniable evidence of lacking souls.

3. It's not about immunity or resistance. No matter what thing you're trying to add to a character's profile, AP, speed, ability, or resistance, if this was the evidence of it it would not be enough.

If you want to talk about lacking evidence, then its your turn buddy. Medaka Box points over and over to a completely materialist world, and the only counter point you have to this is that "maybe Iihiko's Type 6 immortality is soul based, you have no proof that it isn't and it might be." The burden of proof is yours. Iihiko's type 6 is based on making a double, tracing all mental and physical attributes, and then transfering the legend and name over.

The evidence is enough for Wokistan, and Pachi is indifferent. At some point Occum's razor takes over and the evidence clearly shows that it is a materialist world, beyond the point where you can meerly doubt for the sake of it not being outright 100% guide book and author approved beyond the shadow of any doubt. This wiki does not play by a closed minded game on the level of Fictional Battle Omniverse.

 

[Agnaa]

Just because it's generally a materialistic world doesn't mean that all characters in it should be considered soulless. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm reading your argument as.

P1: Medaka Box has no afterlife.

P2: Medaka Box has no normal resurrection, and mocks series that have it.

P3: Medaka Box has the mind as purely biological.

C: Therefore every character in Medaka Box is soulless.

Like, you're taking three things in group A, showing that the series rejects the existence of those three things, and concluding the series has nothing in group A. Isn't this a flawed argument?

It's like saying "John's house no cats, it had no mice, and has no goldfish and John mocks people who have goldfish. Therefore John can't have any pets."

It just doesn't seem like a sound argument. Your conclusion doesn't follow from your evidence.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If you truly and honestly do percieve it like that then you have been greviously missinterpritting my points, and have been missing the context of them. You seem to percieve them in an over simplified manor, and also miss some of the other reasons I gave. Also, you seem to have missed the difference between Inductive and Deductive reasoning. Do not pretend I am arguing this in a way I am not

P1: There is nothing waiting for them after death whatsoever. Even when Ajimu generated an sort of place beyond death of her own, it was completely material and at best was a dream. There is no reincarnation. There is no "shedding of the mortal flesh." There is nothing along those lines. The only kind of soul that could even possibly exist at this point are Burning Open Casket Heresy Style Souls ala Dante's Inferno, which is a hyper specific kind of soul and raises the implications that souls don't play any necessary roll even if they did exist, especially in combo with the other points

P2: Nope. You are using our definition of resurrection, which considers making it like someone never died counts. Medaka Box says that this is not resurrection, and setting someone to a state before they died is not the same as giving life to the dead. Its the same as what SCP 2718 says about the ability of the council to restore a dead being to life. Of the 19 ways that the foundation can bring someone to life, none of them are really resurrecting them, they only have one real way to truly resurrect them in the way they view it. In addition, Medaka Box intentionally distinguishes from a series like Dragon Ball, not mocks in this context. Essentially, as I said above, There is no basis to bring someone back once they truly pass

P3: Maybe I was not as clear as i should have been about this one. The mind and "you" being purely biological, means that the whole Theseus ship paradox thing points to there being no other part of you. Aside from it being another point towards Medaka Box rejecting the spiritual or metaphysical in general, of course. If I have a soul, and you over write my mind so I have a completely different personality and mentally, then I am still me but with a different mentality. If I have no soul, and you over write my mind so I have a completely different personality and mentally, then I am no longer me. I probably just got too complicated with that, so I can rephrase and simplify if what I am saying is unclear

Now that I think about it, Iihiko's type 6 basically functions on the whole concept of Theseus Ship, or probably more acurately, the paradox of the swamp man

" Like, you're taking three things in group A, showing that the series rejects the existence of those three things, and concluding the series has nothing in group A. Isn't this a flawed argument? "


"It's like saying "John's house no cats, it had no mice, and has no goldfish and John mocks people who have goldfish. Therefore John can't have any pets."

It just doesn't seem like a sound argument. Your conclusion doesn't follow from your evidence."

You seem to have completely missunderstood how I am arguing. I am not arguing deductively, which is what would give you a 100% for sure answer. I am arguing inductively, to push that the probability of it past the point where you can simply dismiss it for, as I said before, the sake of it not being outright 100% guide book and author approved beyond the shadow of any doubt.

An argument does not need to have a 100% chance of being true to be reasonably sound.

If you want, I can write it out in as close to Symbolic Logic as I can, since that seems to be how you like it reduced to

 

[Agnaa]

For your clarifications for the premises, I agree with how you then clarified them and understood them as that, but wrote them out in what I thought was a reasonable shorthand. But yours is more accurate.

I'm familiar with inductive and deductive reasoning, but your proposal doesn't meet my standard which I'd like for inductive reasoning to be accepted. I look for the least powerful but still plausible explanation for a character's characteristics. For Medaka Box, souls could still reasonably exist, albeit lacking many common functions, and it wouldn't be much of a stretch. Since this is the least powerful interpretation and it reasonably fits, I'd go with it.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Arbitrarilly asuming the lowest plausible to be somehow more valid than a equally or greater plausible but higher is equally as logically flaud as the inverse of that. The knee jerk reaction of many does seem to be a low ball, but this wiki does not take low balls for the sake of low balling. It takes a mid, low, or high ball depending upon probability and context.

The point is, souls existing in Medaka Box is so vastly improbable that it reaches implausability. That is my point.

 

[Agnaa]

It's not inherently more valid, but I think it's useful for the ratings for a character to be "This character is beyond a reasonable doubt at least this strong" There's times for reasonable doubt with a low presumption, and times for whatever's more probable. I'm criminal cases you're not guilty unless it's beyond a reasonable doubt, in civil cases it's whatever's more likely.

I don't want there to be a reasonable doubt for a character's rating.

I don't think it's at all implausible, they just lack some of the common properties, but that seems like a matter of opinion st this point.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The point of everything I set up here, is that the doubt is not reasonable. The amount of exact things that must be the case for Medaka Box to have souls is so specific and runs against the rest of the world, that it stops being reasonable to take it as souls existing to be anywhere near plausible

Let me put it like this, the amount of "common properties" they lack makes them borderline not even what many philosophers and a good amount of spiritual fields of thought would call souls any more.

If Medaka Box does have souls, let's go down the line on what properties they would have or not have:

• they are not close immortal in any sense of the word
• they parish with the physical body, and do not support your existence
• They cannot be used as a basis for ressurecting a being
• They play no roll in what makes a person who they are
• They have no effect on conciousness or mentality whatsoever
• They are basically the only metaphysical aspect in their entire cosmology

These potential Souls within Medaka don't seem to actually seem to perform any function at all, much less the functions usually given to souls in any basis at all. The only thing I could even kind of see them having which is a somewhat relevant property that is given to souls on any regular basis is maybe that taking them away might lower your creativity or something, or make you slightly more callous, and I see the latter as a stretch for any basis within the verse at all

 

[Chartate101]

Why is the assumption that all verses have souls until proven otherwise? If we operate this wiki off of math and science, shouldn't a verse have to prove there ARE souls, not the other way around? You can't prove a negative. It makes little sense we assume every verse has a soul until proven otherwise.

 

[Agnaa]

Their existence is plausible, but they'd exist in a form that is not common. This is an important distinction to make.

Also some of those points you made are unfounded extrapolations. The first two are not supported, and the last one is just wrong. Fate, luck, and plot are all metaphysical things that are prominent in Medaka Bix.

But even if they'd have to lack many properties that most souls have, they can still exist as souls.

@Chartate It's assumed to be there because of verse equalization. Same reason SCP-3043 should be able to "rewrite the stories in people's heads" for mind manip in series where minds aren't described as stories. Same reason why Monika can affect people's files even if they're not stated to have them. Hell, same reason why some characters can hit instakill weak points in people's bodies even if a verse doesn't mention their existence.

Either way, that isn't a topic for this thread. Take it to a CRT.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I would disagree, due to my entire argument above. At the point that you reach properties of something that are so uncommon they basically become something else, it's hard to even compare then in any meaningful way. Hamon and Chakra are technically based on somewhat the concept, but they have grown to be unreconcileable.

If you stop existing when your body dies, then either you never had a soul to begin with it died somewhere along the way. That is a natural conclusion from there being no after life but souls existing. If you stop existing at death, then your soul not being immortal also naturally follows.

Being non-physical and being metaphysical are 2 different things. I do obviously agree that the plot is not a physical thing, but I would consider meta fiction it's own ball park. But if you want to put the meta narrative elements in the same boat as souls, then go ahead, just know that when I refer to metaphysical I am not referring to things like the plot. Also, Fate and the plot are one and the same in medaka box.

 

[Agnaa]

You'd have a point with the properties thing and the hamon/chakra analogy if the properties of souls weren't already incredibly inconsistent across fiction. And before you go listing things off, sure, you can find multiple properties that 90%+ instances of souls follow, but what about the other 10%? And what about properties that 40% of souls have that 60% don't? Souls aren't one coherent consistent thing being some thing that exists inside at least every human.

If you stop existing when your body dies, then either you never had a soul to begin with it died somewhere along the way.

If you stop existing at death, then your soul not being immortal also naturally follows.

Or your soul could go on to be reborn in something else but your consciousness is gone and can't be perfectly replicated, or the soul has changed by being reborn such that it can't be put back into your body.

Being non-physical and being metaphysical are 2 different things. I do obviously agree that the plot is not a physical thing, but I would consider meta fiction it's own ball park.

I mean, metafiction generally governs metaphysical properties, but I get what you're saying.

Still, I'd say that luck plays a big part (Abnormals have unusually good luck, Medaka has unusually good luck among abnormals, minuses have unusually bad luck, Kumagawa has unusually bad luck among minuses) and is metaphysical rather than metafictional in nature.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The main issue is that, if Medaka Box had souls, it already chose probably one of the most obscure as soul natures in existence. The Open Burning Coffin Heresy ala Dantes inferno that I mentioned earlier. And, as a side note, this soul type as far as actual legit irl world views that hold this view as that the spiritual doesn't matter at all. Sure souls may differ from verse to verse, but Medaka Box's hypothetical souls have about none of the properties that make a soul recognizable as a soul.

Reincarnation was denied outright, and at that point you are the same being but born in something else. When it is stated that nothing comes after death, they mean nothing. There is nothing waiting for you in the after life but nonexistence, then thats a no to immortality.

Luck in Medaka Box, beyond just standard probability, is also generated by mentality, which as has been established is entirely psychological and biological. Medaka's or other heroes luck is metafictional, on that i would agree

 

[QuasiYuri]

"How do we address a verse that explicitly has no souls or spiritual element"

Medaka litteraly talk with a ghost (her mother).

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Are you referring to the sequence during the Iihiko fight?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yes.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'm fairly sure she was just a dream sequence, but I also find it interesting that the room was supposed to be destroyed after Ajimu died. So it would seem her mother was only in the dream in Medaka's heart

 

[QuasiYuri]

The room never was supposed to be destroyed. Kumagawa was inside a room even when Ajimu was died too.

Medaka never seen her mother, she can't know how she look and everything that she said to her. Her being a dream doesn't make sense.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, it was. Don't forget that when Zenkichi died during the Iihiko fight he just straight up stopped existing. Kumagawa was in the room because there was still Ajimu's shade there

Was that ever stated? We also never saw how Medaka's mom acts in person so we do not know how true the personality of the remnant was beyond that it fit some of the descriptions that both we and Medaka got.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Zenkichi doesn't really know what happened, he even implied the opposite with his "no classroom for me?".

She died just after giving birth to Medaka. We know actually quite all of her personnality. Another evidence is that Hato said that she's "making use of it without permission" and said herself to be "a lost soul".