Should Genshin Impact's Hilichurl Tier really be Low 7-B?

[Second22]

I'm a little skeptical about the h8-C scaling physically as well? Why not Elemental Abilities?

 

[Amost6x]

Obviously, in many scenes vision users can't kill Hilichurl in one hit, On many occasions, Hilichurl can withstand Elemental attacks.

And vision users are supposed to be physically stronger than Hilichurl.

 

[Second22]

Obviously, in many scenes vision users can't kill Hilichurl in one hit, And vision users are supposed to be physically stronger than Hilichurl.

Can you give an example? And can you send link that scene here?

 

[Amost6x]

Can you give an example? And can you send link that scene here?

This

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Agree with this. and I'm fine with scale Shenhe's Durability to 7-A with Elemental Abilities.

So the low7-B and 7-B calculations are removed. For Lisa, I've corrected the mass calculations, so Lisa is 7-C with Elemental Abilities.

I believe that Electro Vision has Lightning attack speed since they qualify for the Lightning Feats.

• Both Razor and Lisa can create thunder from clouds to the ground.
• Lightning in the game has the property of being able to shock and stuck in electric state.

However, they only scale Attack speed, not Movement speed, unless there is clear evidence or scenes that they move as fast as lightning or characters can transform into lightning. Currently, I haven't seen a feat like this clearly.

Okay.

If the 7-C calculation is accepted and people agree with it being better than the previous calculation, then this is fine for me.

I remember the Traveler using Electro energy for movement but someone argued that this was just him cloaking himself in the energy. It also seems like as if all Catalyst users turn into elemental energy for their plunge attacks. Of note would be Keqing using her Elemental Skill to quickly move across an area though it is described as "blinking".

 

[Amost6x]

I think that's possible. But we noticed from when the Traveler was training with Yae Miko, he was able to dodge lightning even at close range. And when he goes up against Ei again, he's more able to handle her, it's easy to assume that because he's able to dodge her attacks. I'm not sure how this will affect his speed.

Can everyone consider this please?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Can everyone consider this please?

Divine lightning should technically be superior to regular lightning. One thing that should be considered here is that the Traveler wouldn't have been able to win in the second fight without a power boost through Yae Miko and the confiscated Visions.

 

[Shey]

This

They didn't get up after those strikes, that isn't them tanking, it's pretty clear that Diluc is casually oneshotting them.

Can everyone consider this please?

The game has you aim dodge the attacks by showing where it would strike next and the only one that doesn't show you can be predicted by dodging while the equipment opens up before then shooting out the lightning blade

Agree with this. and I'm fine with scale Shenhe's Durability to 7-A with Elemental Abilities.

Ngl this seems outlier-ish

I believe that Electro Vision has Lightning attack speed since they qualify for the Lightning Feats.

• Both Razor and Lisa can create thunder from clouds to the ground.

Iirc only Lisa's lightning actually strikes from above, both Razor's Hold and Press use Electro from his Claws

• Lightning in the game has the property of being able to shock and stuck in electric state.

Tbf this isn't really a full qualifier for lightning speed

However, they only scale Attack speed, not Movement speed, unless there is clear evidence or scenes that they move as fast as lightning or characters can transform into lightning. Currently, I haven't seen a feat like this clearly.

I checked through a bunch of scenes which could look like Vision users transforming into Lightning like Childe ~seemingly~ did, but it was more like a coat of electro aura rather than full on Elemental transformation, so there's a wrench in that .

 

[Second22]

If the 7-C calculation is accepted and people agree with it being better than the previous calculation, then this is fine for me.

DMUA accepted.

This

I don't see how Hilichurl takes Diluc's attack.

Ngl this seems outlier-ish

because it is a scene that clearly occurs in the story I don't think it's just the reason outliers are not counted. Are there any other reasons?

Tbf this isn't really a full qualifier for lightning speed

This is only the thing that supports reason. However, it doesn't matter.

Iirc only Lisa's lightning actually strikes from above, both Razor's Hold and Press use Electro from his Claws

Yeah, My bad. So Lisa has lightning attack speed.

I checked through a bunch of scenes which could look like Vision users transforming into Lightning like Childe ~seemingly~ did, but it was more like a coat of electro aura rather than full on Elemental transformation, so there's a wrench in that .

Okay.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

DMUA accepted.

Okay, that's good. Does everyone agree with using that calculation?

 

[Amost6x]

Divine lightning should technically be superior to regular lightning. One thing that should be considered here is that the Traveler wouldn't have been able to win in the second fight without a power boost through Yae Miko and the confiscated Visions.

I mentioned before he got the vision buff. He was able to last much longer than the first time.

They didn't get up after those strikes, that isn't them tanking, it's pretty clear that Diluc is casually oneshotting them.

If you look behind Diluc as he fights the first two ice-powered monsters there. they got up

The game has you aim dodge the attacks by showing where it would strike next and the only one that doesn't show you can be predicted by dodging while the equipment opens up before then shooting out the lightning blade

I'm not referring to in gameplay. but in the story Obviously, he held on for much longer. which if the story is patched together It was clear that he was able to dodge her attack. And in order to do that, he had to have a certain level of speed.

 

[Amost6x]

Okay, that's good. Does everyone agree with using that calculation?

Yes

 

[Mand21]

Environmental Destruction seems like a dubious choice here for me since Universal Energy Systems exist. If the storm clouds were part of some kind of chain reaction or an ability separate from Razor's Vision it would work as Environmental Destruction, but this doesn't seem to be the case, so it being an outlier or just for visual flair makes a lot more sense. Universal Energy Systems also reminds me of Shenhe and the fact that nobody seems to have talked about or taken care of this yet.

Genshin Impact absolutely DOES NOT have an Universal Energy System. Elemental energy affects elemental abilities, period. Characters are proven to be superhuman without a Vision, see Beidou. I believe Genshin carries a LIMITED energy system, as an Electro feat should only scale to the effects of the ELECTRICITY used.

I believe that the point of the feat is less Razor using the energy of the clouds for his attacks and more the fact that it shows Razor is technically capable of outputting this much energy with the things he does with his vision if this in-game effect is considered canon. I'm fine with the feat being disregarded as an outlier or visual flair for Razor but it seems to be canon for Lisa based on statements, so that's something to think about. I do agree that Guhua's calculation and scaling has a lot more doubtfulness than it should have.

I'm not sure what the exact details for the lightning dodging would look like in canon but it is a good point to make that no character has been seen to perform that feat in a canon cutscene. Something important to consider here would be if Electro Vision users can actually make use of the speed of lightning since that could affect things like attack and travel speed even if the overall speed is lower. I believe that the last time this was discussed no consensus was really made regarding this matter.

I really see no reason to believe the characters are actually outputting that much energy, and honestly I'd even question how trustworthy of a narrator Razor is. Could it be that Liza creates small clouds but at a scale large enough to create a black cover above Razor and he mistook it for being a black sky? Razor is not only inarticulate, but uneducated and has a low intelligence.

 

[Mand21]

Again, if Lisa, who isn't anywhere close to a Harbinger, can blacken the sky, wouldn't there be a nuclear winter on every Hilichurl fight in this verse? I feel like actual combat-applicable destruction in Genshin should be on the Tier 8 for these trained Vision users, in accordance with other feats. Lisa's blackening of the sky REALLY doesn't seem combat-applicable and more like Environmental Destruction, if it's fully literal at all.

 

[Jackpact]

Genshin Impact absolutely DOES NOT have an Universal Energy System. Elemental energy affects elemental abilities, period. Characters are proven to be superhuman without a Vision, see Beidou.

True, but consider this, simply giving Noelle sword the abilities to resonance with her geo energies allow the sword to withstand daily use up til now while even the best one Wagner made was destroyed after a few swing, Itto conjured up all of his elemental power in 1 attack allow him to punch a whole in the distorted space and also knock him out the rest of the quest. Elemental energies can increase something physical attribute and can tire one out when it's too exhausted but it's just 2 example that i know of so i guess it's okay to say they don't have UES now.

 

[Mand21]

True, but consider this, simply giving Noelle sword the abilities to resonance with her geo energies allow the sword to withstand daily use up til now while even the best one Wagner made was destroyed after a few swing, Itto conjured up all of his elemental power in 1 attack allow him to punch a whole in the distorted space and also knock him out the rest of the quest. Elemental energies can increase something physical attribute and can tire one out when it's too exhausted but it's just 2 example that i know of so i guess it's okay to say they don't have UES now.

These are elemental abilities being used, though. Noelle is actively augmenting her sword with Geo, Itto is actively putting elemental energy on that punch. However, characters by default have no elemental augmentation when striking physically.
Elemental energies CAN be used to increase attributes, but by default they are not.

Oh, and unrelated, but those Abyss Mages in the video seem to have resisted one or two hits from Diluc. The Hilichurls got one-shot tho.

 

[Amost6x]

Alright, I've found something that might refer to stats physical, what do you guys think?

 

[Shey]

None of Abyss Mage's withstood a direct hit and none of the Hilichurls got up after Diluc oneshots every Hilichurl in sight he gets Attacks by 3 mages at once, he plunges and the shock to the ground knocks back the 3 and he follows up by comboing with his Burst, then the Last one reappears with a Shield summoning more Hilichurls (tbh I don't understand how that works it's vague)
They don't scale to Diluc's Element Energy.

Alright, I've found something that might refer to stats physical, what do you guys think?

Does Dehya scale to anybody?, It's kinda weird that the supposed battle is just Dehya acting out her gameplay, it's legit though but fodder taking multiple hits like that from a Vision wielder's magic just makes Dehya look weak

 

[Amost6x]

Does Dehya scale to anybody?, It's kinda weird that the supposed battle is just Dehya acting out her gameplay, it's legit though but fodder taking multiple hits like that from a Vision wielder's magic just makes Dehya look weak

I think it's because that mercenary has high durability. She should be scaled by other vision users. There was nothing to indicate that she was weak. And she is also classified as strong, and compared to lisa who is only a researcher, Dehya who is a mercenary should definitely be stronger than her.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Genshin Impact absolutely DOES NOT have an Universal Energy System. Elemental energy affects elemental abilities, period. Characters are proven to be superhuman without a Vision, see Beidou. I believe Genshin carries a LIMITED energy system, as an Electro feat should only scale to the effects of the ELECTRICITY used.

I really see no reason to believe the characters are actually outputting that much energy, and honestly I'd even question how trustworthy of a narrator Razor is. Could it be that Liza creates small clouds but at a scale large enough to create a black cover above Razor and he mistook it for being a black sky? Razor is not only inarticulate, but uneducated and has a low intelligence.

Limited Energy Systems are included on the page that I've linked. If I meant what you implied I meant I would have suggested to physically upgrade Shenhe to 7-A instead of just giving her Mountain level Durability with Elemental Abilities.

We literally have an attack animation for Lisa's Elemental Skill that matches Razor's description. Inarticulate and uneducated is accurate even if there are efforts to mitigate that though low intelligence is mostly in the academic sense and when it comes to interacting with humans. He seems otherwise to be fully capable of intelligent thinking to me.

Edit: i'm pretty sure there's also another npc in Mondstadt that talk about how when Lisa is angry, the sky darken, if i can i'll try to find it if someone else don't already.

I believe that I recall something similar but I don't know where exactly to look.

Again, if Lisa, who isn't anywhere close to a Harbinger, can blacken the sky, wouldn't there be a nuclear winter on every Hilichurl fight in this verse? I feel like actual combat-applicable destruction in Genshin should be on the Tier 8 for these trained Vision users, in accordance with other feats. Lisa's blackening of the sky REALLY doesn't seem combat-applicable and more like Environmental Destruction, if it's fully literal at all.

I think it's because that mercenary has high durability. She should be scaled by other vision users. There was nothing to indicate that she was weak. And she is also classified as strong, and compared to lisa who is only a researcher, Dehya who is a mercenary should definitely be stronger than her.

I don't believe that Lisa has really been compared to Harbingers or mercenaries, so we do not strictly know how exactly she compares though she does seem to canonically have a decent level of strength based on the comments and reactions of other characters. There is also the fact that she is generally taking things rather leisurely which isn't beneficial to showcasing or making use of her full capabilities. Dehya being a mercenary wouldn't automatically make her stronger than Lisa since being a mercenary is something that is also the case for random mercenary mooks we regularly take out for commissions though Dehya has multiple statements going for her strength.

 

[Shey]

I think it's because that mercenary has high durability. She should be scaled by other vision users.

Like who?

There was nothing to indicate that she was weak. And she is also classified as strong, and compared to lisa who is only a researcher, Dehya who is a mercenary should definitely be stronger than her.

That's no indication that her Elemental Energy would be stronger than Lisa's although it could be made a case for raw physicality

 

[Amost6x]

Like who?

At least it was the other Fire Vision users.

 

[Mickey1940]

don't the likes of Razor and Amber backscale from wolf who's 7B scaling to Guhua due to throwing hands with said wolf in Razor's story

 

[Shey]

Guhua's 7-B isn't a thing anymore
Andrius is also unwinnable in that quest, just like the first Ei boss battle and Razor calms him down in the next cutscene

 

[Mickey1940]

Guhua's 7-B isn't a thing anymore
Andrius is also unwinnable in that quest, just like the first Ei boss battle and Razor calms him down in the next cutscene

why is it not a thing anymore

also Andrius was trying to kill them all for several minutes, I'm pretty sure they had to at least clash with him somewhat to survive his attacks

 

[ZENZUYA]

Does Genshin impact characters even have feats that put them above building level except for hyperbolic statements ?

just chain scalling
thats why hilichurl actually Low 7-B

 

[Naito-desu]

The nature of the 7-B calc is still questionable though so even if Andrius scaled, it would still be to a calc that stands on questionable grounds. I propose recalculating the bamboo forest calc with proper measurements (6 psi, area according to this map) to settle this disagreement instead.

 

[Second22]

The nature of the 7-B calc is still questionable though so even if Andrius scaled, it would still be to a calc that stands on questionable grounds. I propose recalculating the bamboo forest calc with proper measurements (6 psi, area according to this map) to settle this disagreement instead.

I just recalculated earlier, but I didn't use the Genshin area as a reference, instead I used the smallest bamboo forest in China. Later, I will add the Genshin area value, but I still don't know which part of the area should be used as a reference. Do you have any suggestions?

 

[Naito-desu]

I think the bamboo forest west of Qingce should suffice, but I'll need to manually calculate its area though since the document includes it into Qingce village

 

[Second22]

Then Okay, I'll leave it to you.

 

[Mickey1940]

The nature of the 7-B calc is still questionable though so even if Andrius scaled, it would still be to a calc that stands on questionable grounds. I propose recalculating the bamboo forest calc with proper measurements (6 psi, area according to this map) to settle this disagreement instead.

Whatever that calc may be, Andrius scales to that calc

therefore anyone who has faced off against Andrius, like Razor and Amber, should also scale to that calc, if not back scale from it

As for every other character who doesn't directly scale to/above that calc, literally everyone else is featless (like Bennett Fischl every non-combatant etc) so ngl I think "Unknown" should be a solid rating for them

 

[Naito-desu]

We discussed Bennett's feats in this thread already so he's not featless first of all. This goes for most combatant Vision Users, I'm content with these changes, Unknown is a bit of an ignorant rating imo

 

[Naito-desu]

Using the histogram tool on Photoshop, we find that the rough area of the selected forest is about 848 px^2, which when plugged into a radius calculator yields 16.42945 px, the document states there is an in-game meter for every 0.5125 pixels so:

16.42945/0.5125 = 32.05746341 in-game meters

Plugging these into the calculation, nets an 9-A+ to High 8-C

 

[Mickey1940]

We discussed Bennett's feats in this thread already so he's not featless first of all. This goes for most combatant Vision Users, I'm content with these changes, Unknown is a bit of an ignorant rating imo

I play Genshin. Afaik Bennett hasn't done anything

what has he done?

 

[Second22]

I play Genshin. Afaik Bennett hasn't done anything

what has he done?

I think you just go back and read the conversation we discussed earlier.

Shortly, Bennett was able to melt the ice from Susbedo's creation.

 

[Mand21]

I really find it questionable to scale Lisa to clouds when moving clouds around should be more easily classified as an Anemo feat and there's no reason to believe she can output these nuclear tier energies in her actual lightning bolts (and cause nuclear tier damage, which is even harder with lightning). I suggest we stick to High 8-C for the damages. May I start editing pages?

 

[Jackpact]

If you think it's not consistent, then Sara burst which also conjure cloud to ground lightning, also darken the sky before dropping it like Lisa, unlike Lisa, Sara bolt drop faster so the cloud didn't last as long didn't last as long. So it's consistent so far that anyone that cause cloud to ground lightning darken the sky.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I really find it questionable to scale Lisa to clouds when moving clouds around should be more easily classified as an Anemo feat and there's no reason to believe she can output these nuclear tier energies in her actual lightning bolts (and cause nuclear tier damage, which is even harder with lightning). I suggest we stick to High 8-C for the damages. May I start editing pages?

The thing is that it's pretty much canon that she does cause thunder clouds to gather to the point where it gets visibly darker and in that case it doesn't really matter if you think that it fits to Anemo more. In the first place you'd need to get the clouds from somewhere even with Anemo and I guess Electro just allows Lisa to do that since thunder clouds are associated with thunder. Even with a Limited Energy System you'd still need to deal with the fact that Lisa's Electro attacks and the gathering of these thunder clouds are both powered by her Vision and in the case of her Elemental Skill she is gathering thunder clouds and performing an Electro attack at the same time. If you think that it leads to contradictory scaling or is an outlier, then that is alright with the right arguments. There are still Shenhe and Beidou who are currently quite a bit above Lisa's storm cloud feat as a result fo their own feats to consider.

 

[Naito-desu]

Using the histogram tool on Photoshop, we find that the rough area of the selected forest is about 848 px^2, which assuming we contain it in a circular area, would have a radius of 16.42945 px, the document states there is an in-game meter for every 0.5125 pixels so:

16.42945/0.5125 = 32.05746341 in-game meters

Plugging these into the calculation, nets an 9-A+ to High 8-C

Realized I forgot to scale this to "in-lore" distance. Ratio of in-game to in-lore is about 1:158.66, so plugging that in we get a radius of about ~5086km, which would be around High 7-C if plugged into a calculator. This might help with the current debate.

 

[Second22]

Realized I forgot to scale this to "in-lore" distance. Ratio of in-game to in-lore is about 1:158.66, so plugging that in we get a radius of about ~5086km, which would be around High 7-C if plugged into a calculator. This might help with the current debate.

That length exceeds 1/3 of the Earth's diameter.