Should Genshin Impact's Hilichurl Tier really be Low 7-B?

[Naito-desu]

I don't think scaling lower tier characters to FLT Childe will work. Low tiers would scale to Bennett's destruction of Susbedo's Ice Structure, or downscale from its creation. Higher tiers would be the ones to scale to Childe or Susbedo. Childe IMO is likely comparable to higher tier combatants like Jean and Eula, due to similar feats of being able to cut down multiple Ruin Guards

 

[Mand21]

We don't need to make new profiles, just edit the current ones... we have a Bennett profile and he's Low 7-B, by the way! So EVERYONE should scale at his level or above him who currently has a profile.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

We don't need to make new profiles, just edit the current ones...

I know, but we don't have many of new profiles for so long

 

[Bossbrosish]

So I was playing the Arataki Itto story quest and saw the cutscene where he breaks a boulder. Could this be used for a calculation?

 

[Naito-desu]

It would be really helpful for Inazuma characters specifically if it amounts to anything

 

[Second22]

Genshin Impact: Itto breaks the rock

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Bossbrosish]

Genshin Impact: Itto breaks the rock

vsbattles.fandom.com

Neat, It managed to reach building level.

 

[Naito-desu]

There's still also Noelle's feat of breaking down a huge stone wall in her hangout, I can hop on and calc it

 

[Bossbrosish]

There's also this feat of the traveler cutting anpiece of ice.

 

[Naito-desu]

I kinda doubt that it'll be better than Albedo's ice feat tho

 

[Bossbrosish]

I kinda doubt that it'll be better than Albedo's ice feat tho

Still is something though

 

[Mand21]

I feel like Traveler's feat isn't good scaling because by late stage Sumeru, Traveler should be on at least borderline Adeptus level in order to fight a quasi-God in Balladeer and not get instakilled. That Itto feat is great, though. I think we have now solid evidence that combatant Vision users are at least 8-C and can go up to High 8-C, all while sporting movement/combat speeds around Mach 2, right?

 

[Amost6x]

I feel like Traveler's feat isn't good scaling because by late stage Sumeru, Traveler should be on at least borderline Adeptus level in order to fight a quasi-God in Balladeer and not get instakilled. That Itto feat is great, though. I think we have now solid evidence that combatant Vision users are at least 8-C and can go up to High 8-C, all while sporting movement/combat speeds around Mach 2, right?

I'm also skeptical of Mach 2 speeds, because form this scan is pretty clear the Razor is as fast as lightning.

 

[Second22]

The sentence "As agile as lightning" is a metaphorical expression and not to be taken literally. It means that the boy is extremely fast and nimble, like lightning, but it does not mean that he is literally as fast as lightning. Therefore, we can understand from the sentence that the boy is very agile and moves quickly, but not necessarily as fast as lightning.

 

[Amost6x]

I think the word as means equal. It wasn't just a metaphor, but it meant that Razor was really as fast as lightning.

 

[Naito-desu]

Also I did a rough calc of Noelle breaking down the stone wall, and it basically is 8-C, which can help establish low-tier Vision User combatants as 8-C

 

[Second22]

I think the word as means equal. It wasn't just a metaphor, but it meant that Razor was really as fast as lightning.

I understand your point, but in this case, the use of "as" is actually a simile, not an equation. A simile is a figure of speech that uses the words "like" or "as" to compare two things that are not identical but have something in common. In this case, the phrase "as agile as lightning" is a simile that compares the boy's agility to the speed and nimbleness of lightning. It is a comparison that emphasizes the boy's quickness and grace, but it does not mean that he is literally as fast as lightning. Therefore, the argument that "as" means "equal" in this context is not accurate.

 

[Second22]

Also I did a rough calc of Noelle breaking down the stone wall, and it basically is 8-C, which can help establish low-tier Vision User combatants as 8-C

Nice job bro. Can you post your calculations here?

 

[Naito-desu]

Here, it's only a rough calculation because I took liberties with the shape, as well as some hastily taken screenshots.

 

[Amost6x]

I understand your point, but in this case, the use of "as" is actually a simile, not an equation. A simile is a figure of speech that uses the words "like" or "as" to compare two things that are not identical but have something in common. In this case, the phrase "as agile as lightning" is a simile that compares the boy's agility to the speed and nimbleness of lightning. It is a comparison that emphasizes the boy's quickness and grace, but it does not mean that he is literally as fast as lightning. Therefore, the argument that "as" means "equal" in this context is not accurate.

Alright, I'll let that matter go. I'm not good at English so I'm not sure I'll give you the correct information.

But I found another more interesting and obvious feat. From this video, it clearly shows that Tighnari and Dehya are quick enough to dodge lightning strikes. What is your opinion on this?

 

[Naito-desu]

Honestly? I don't really see much reason to dispute this one, it's hard to calc given that we can't calc the exact speed of them dodging the lightning but they would have to be fairly fast to be able to dodgeit, unless there was a way to dodge lightning without being able to react to it.

Tighnari also took a pretty bad lightning shot, and survived while it tore Fatui to shreds, so that is another 9-A+/8-C feat to take note of

 

[Mand21]

Alright, I'll let that matter go. I'm not good at English so I'm not sure I'll give you the correct information.

But I found another more interesting and obvious feat. From this video, it clearly shows that Tighnari and Dehya are quick enough to dodge lightning strikes. What is your opinion on this?

GOOD POINT! These are definitely natural, cloud to ground lightning bolts! However, as we see in this page, dodging lightning is on average just 210 m/s. HOWEVER, if we were to take the ultimate high end, they'd be at Mach 20 at least! Even using the lowest cloud height with an average speed would still net them Mach 6+ speeds.

But I don't think it's justified. I'd use the highest highballs if we had some adepti and I would love to see adepti being given Mach 6+ feats and Archons being given Mach 20 feats, but right now it seems unjustified.

 

[Shey]

Tighnari was Incapacited after that Lightning bolt and was stated to be seriously injured and Dehya had to drag him in, not sure if that counts for Durability at all

 

[Second22]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as durability. a person who survived a lightning strike would not have as much energy as lightning durability.

When a person is struck by lightning, the energy from the lightning bolt typically travels through the body, potentially causing a variety of injuries, including burns, nerve damage, and heart problems. However, the human body is not designed to absorb or store the massive amount of electrical energy that a lightning bolt carries.

 

[Amost6x]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as durability. a person who survived a lightning strike would not have as much energy as lightning durability.

When a person is struck by lightning, the energy from the lightning bolt typically travels through the body, potentially causing a variety of injuries, including burns, nerve damage, and heart problems. However, the human body is not designed to absorb or store the massive amount of electrical energy that a lightning bolt carries.

I am of the same opinion. It's not durability. It might just be resistance to lightning. or maybe nothing at all

But I don't think it's justified. I'd use the highest highballs if we had some adepti and I would love to see adepti being given Mach 6+ feats and Archons being given Mach 20 feats, but right now it seems unjustified.

I think that's possible. But we noticed from when the Traveler was training with Yae Miko, he was able to dodge lightning even at close range. And when he goes up against Ei again, he's more able to handle her, it's easy to assume that because he's able to dodge her attacks. I'm not sure how this will affect his speed.

GOOD POINT! These are definitely natural, cloud to ground lightning bolts! However, as we see in this page, dodging lightning is on average just 210 m/s. HOWEVER, if we were to take the ultimate high end, they'd be at Mach 20 at least! Even using the lowest cloud height with an average speed would still net them Mach 6+ speeds.

But I don't think it's justified. I'd use the highest highballs if we had some adepti and I would love to see adepti being given Mach 6+ feats and Archons being given Mach 20 feats, but right now it seems unjustified.

But at this point, I'm sure Archon will have a huge speed beyond him. If they had a speed of Mach 6 or Hypersonic, The Archons should be at least Hypersonic+ in my opinion.

 

[Mand21]

Okay, now, what do we do to the character pages? Bennett is currently Low 7-B. My proposal is we give EVERYONE who was up until now Low 7-B the High 8-C scaling, with currently 7-B characters being "At Least High 8-C".

 

[Amost6x]

That seems fine.

 

[Naito-desu]

I'm iffy still but given Bennett is somewhat comparable to Susbedo, I think this is fine

 

[Mand21]

Okay. Do we give Supersonic+ to characters who should be much faster than Eula?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Do we have a consensus regarding how to handle Razor and Lisa's storm cloud feats and the speed of Electro attacks?

 

[Shey]

That's a quite tricky Convo

 

[Naito-desu]

I really think it's more Environmental Destruction, I haven't seen much that suggests the energy used to gather them is combat applicable

 

[Mand21]

It's either Environmental Destruction, or straight up just cutesy flair. Either way, no reason to believe they apply that power in combat.

Now, if someone can answer my question, that can help us scale different characters... Either way, should we start collaborating on these profile edits? There are a lot of characters to nerf the AP of, and possibly ALL OF THEM to nerf the speed of!

 

[Second22]

We should wait for the staff's opinion. First of all, we need to summarize all the things to be solved.

 

[Mand21]

Haven't we?

1. Downgrade vision users below high tier (adepti/harbingers, in other words, downgrade every vision user who's a combatant or not but isn't insanely badass) to around High 8-C by scaling to Bennet pyroing some large amount of ice.

2. Downgrade possibly EVERYBODY's speed by no longer validating Jean's B.S lightning dodge. Rather, we use Eula's bullet parry/dodge feat to make everyone around her Mach 2. I believe pretty much every Vision user is Supersonic from that, meanwhile people known to be faster might be fair to put on Supersonic+.

 

[Second22]

I mean the reason why we have to downgrade them. I understand the reason for downgrading them, but I believe we should summarize it again for clarity. This will help the staff understand which specific points we need to address and why. It will be easier for them to comprehend if we present it concisely.

 

[Mand21]

1. Because the Razor feat shows clouds showing up and doing nothing to aid his attack, also this is a very momentary in-game effect which might even be getting used only for flair or to make his attack look cool. There is no reason to believe these clouds contribute to his attack at all and they may not even be canonically a part of it but rather a visual metaphor/flair. As such, that feat should be disregarded entirely.

2. Because Jean's movement of dodging lightning does not react to lightning but rather is done by the player reacting to where the lightning is shown to be going to fall. This is TEXTBOOK AIMDODGING and Jean should not be considered to be dodging lightning.

 

[Naito-desu]

Summary for mods:
1. The basis for low 7-B to 7-B ratings for Genshin Impact is doubtful as the only two calcs that are used for these should not scale to AP, or have no real reason to scale to higher tier characters. The energy used for gathering storm clouds has not been demonstrated to be used offensively. And Guhua's calculation is simply inflated and should not be scaled to characters Guhua has not even met.
2. The calculation for dodging lightning has not been approved, but there have been demonstrated instances of dodging lightning with Dehya. I'm neutral about this, but for now, it would be more prudent to scale our character speeds to existing calculations.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I really think it's more Environmental Destruction, I haven't seen much that suggests the energy used to gather them is combat applicable

It's either Environmental Destruction, or straight up just cutesy flair. Either way, no reason to believe they apply that power in combat.

Now, if someone can answer my question, that can help us scale different characters... Either way, should we start collaborating on these profile edits? There are a lot of characters to nerf the AP of, and possibly ALL OF THEM to nerf the speed of!

Environmental Destruction seems like a dubious choice here for me since Universal Energy Systems exist. If the storm clouds were part of some kind of chain reaction or an ability separate from Razor's Vision it would work as Environmental Destruction, but this doesn't seem to be the case, so it being an outlier or just for visual flair makes a lot more sense. Universal Energy Systems also reminds me of Shenhe and the fact that nobody seems to have talked about or taken care of this yet.

1. Because the Razor feat shows clouds showing up and doing nothing to aid his attack, also this is a very momentary in-game effect which might even be getting used only for flair or to make his attack look cool. There is no reason to believe these clouds contribute to his attack at all and they may not even be canonically a part of it but rather a visual metaphor/flair. As such, that feat should be disregarded entirely.

2. Because Jean's movement of dodging lightning does not react to lightning but rather is done by the player reacting to where the lightning is shown to be going to fall. This is TEXTBOOK AIMDODGING and Jean should not be considered to be dodging lightning.

Summary for mods:
1. The basis for low 7-B to 7-B ratings for Genshin Impact is doubtful as the only two calcs that are used for these should not scale to AP, or have no real reason to scale to higher tier characters. The energy used for gathering storm clouds has not been demonstrated to be used offensively. And Guhua's calculation is simply inflated and should not be scaled to characters Guhua has not even met.
2. The calculation for dodging lightning has not been approved, but there have been demonstrated instances of dodging lightning with Dehya. I'm neutral about this, but for now, it would be more prudent to scale our character speeds to existing calculations.

I believe that the point of the feat is less Razor using the energy of the clouds for his attacks and more the fact that it shows Razor is technically capable of outputting this much energy with the things he does with his vision if this in-game effect is considered canon. I'm fine with the feat being disregarded as an outlier or visual flair for Razor but it seems to be canon for Lisa based on statements, so that's something to think about. I do agree that Guhua's calculation and scaling has a lot more doubtfulness than it should have.

I'm not sure what the exact details for the lightning dodging would look like in canon but it is a good point to make that no character has been seen to perform that feat in a canon cutscene. Something important to consider here would be if Electro Vision users can actually make use of the speed of lightning since that could affect things like attack and travel speed even if the overall speed is lower. I believe that the last time this was discussed no consensus was really made regarding this matter.

 

[Second22]

Environmental Destruction seems like a dubious choice here for me since Universal Energy Systems exist. If the storm clouds were part of some kind of chain reaction or an ability separate from Razor's Vision it would work as Environmental Destruction, but this doesn't seem to be the case, so it being an outlier or just for visual flair makes a lot more sense. Universal Energy Systems also reminds me of Shenhe and the fact that nobody seems to have talked about or taken care of this yet.

Agree with this. and I'm fine with scale Shenhe's Durability to 7-A with Elemental Abilities.

I believe that the point of the feat is less Razor using the energy of the clouds for his attacks and more the fact that it shows Razor is technically capable of outputting this much energy with the things he does with his vision if this in-game effect is considered canon. I'm fine with the feat being disregarded as an outlier or visual flair for Razor but it seems to be canon for Lisa based on statements, so that's something to think about. I do agree that Guhua's calculation and scaling has a lot more doubtfulness than it should have.

So the low7-B and 7-B calculations are removed. For Lisa, I've corrected the mass calculations, so Lisa is 7-C with Elemental Abilities.

I'm not sure what the exact details for the lightning dodging would look like in canon but it is a good point to make that no character has been seen to perform that feat in a canon cutscene. Something important to consider here would be if Electro Vision users can actually make use of the speed of lightning since that could affect things like attack and travel speed even if the overall speed is lower. I believe that the last time this was discussed no consensus was really made regarding this matter.

I believe that Electro Vision has Lightning attack speed since they qualify for the Lightning Feats.

• Both Razor and Lisa can create thunder from clouds to the ground.
• Lightning in the game has the property of being able to shock and stuck in electric state.

However, they only scale Attack speed, not Movement speed, unless there is clear evidence or scenes that they move as fast as lightning or characters can transform into lightning. Currently, I haven't seen a feat like this clearly.