Shinza Banshou downgrade

[Darksmash]

Pretty sure the Gudou's cross smth called Hajun's singularity??

And it's only uncrossable when the Hadou God is directly facing the throne god, so whatever is left when it's not being backed by the god has 0 proof for being anywhere higher into 1-A

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Its cuz the hadous have to keep fighting against the godhead anyway. Its a clash of color and they would naturally try to devour each other as we know unless u are named Marie only one hadou is allow to remain. The Gudous went down to Hajun's singularity when its describe to be far far deeper than merc's by Yakou.

 

[Darksmash]

Sadly "Much much deeper" is a very vague comparison and doesn't really quantify anything.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Vague? Why the hell is that even vague when everything points to how being deeper is also related to power and the "depth" of the singularity is consistent with how this works. Its not vague in anyway. It's pretty clear cut what it means. THe blog Ravy made (if u have yet to read it) has mentioned on how the "depths" work

 

[Darksmash]

This entire thread was supposed to argue against those arguments in the first place

I have already explained this like a Heptadecillion times by now, but the blog argued the depth difference is transcendental specifically because a god with lower Taikyoku was unable to drill through it.
Which I have already explained why it will NOT make sense to be explictly because of the depth as we know it's only when the throne god is involved.

It's getting very tiresome to repeat the same thing again and again, So I wish we stop going in circles with this.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I have already explained this like a Heptadecillion times by now, but the blog argued the depth difference is transcendental specifically because a god with lower Taikyoku was unable to drill through it.
Which I have already explained why it will NOT make sense to be explictly because of the depth as we know it's only when the throne god is involved.

You do realize its because of the godhead that has caused the hadous all the headache due to their very nature to just clash (hadous just try to devour any other hadou in the vicinity anyway) when we know that even weaker gudous can just jump into Hajun's singularity who is not only much deeper than merc's as Yakou commented with the depth not being vague at all. Hell its those that have taiji that can cross it just fine. To put it basically gudous or Hadous don't care about the size. Hadous troubles stem from their inherit nature to clash with the godhead themselves and must challenge them with the same taiji or more. Otherwise regardless of the size like with Hajun's singularity even weaker gudous just cross it fairly qucikly.

 

[Infera28]

Jesus the exaggeration is real here. They don't go to a higher narrative with each hole.
The moment they made a hole they were already beyond the perspective of being inside the painting. Masada was very literal with his painting analogy, and the realms that came "after" it were all located below the paper through the singularity. The realm immediately followed by the paper was even directly compared to a blank slate. Of course a blank slate is superior to a paper, but it's extremely unimpressive at this scale. And sure, the singularities generated by a higher god are undrillable for the lower gods.

I already explained why that is irrelevant. Yes singularity is beyond foreknowledge picture or multiverse but it still is merely another paintable picture for taikyoku without any difference. It multiple times stated taikyoku controls all things in creation, paints over creation and canvas and then it multiple times stated singularity (blank slate not hole) is merely another part of creation and canvas. Maybe a higher part but still another part of it. Even a part of the singularity was stated to be picture.

Holes were akin to the one made in multiverse and same as that. that one was 1-A to previous step and they could make infinite similar holes in singularity which already was 1-A, without any end. If it doesn't give us a clear sign of transcendence then idk what was point of statement in story.

Different people keep saying different things about it, but it's upto you. If it's because of size you just proved singularity can be expanded enough in size to be above a Hadou God. In the end it all falls down one way or another.

I never said singularity is 1-A+. I only was trying to saying singularity is a picture to taikyoku.

A painter can overwhelm another painter by throwing a stronger colour at them. What's to imagine here?

Looking at how Marie painted Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius, erasing and turning them into pictures of her new world. In combination with other info it can support difference between each taikyoku being a reality-fiction transcendence.

Also merely being "above" doesn't really mean anything. A painter is above his entire canvas, which would obviously include defects like a hole. It's how big the gap actually is that matters. The singularity is also not literally just any random void compared to the multiverse. It's colourless Taiji, something special
Lastly, although this has nothing to add to my arguments, but just for correction what Taikyoku paints over is the multitude of realms which exist throughout the tunnel of the singularity. The "blank slate" was very explictly not the hole itself, but something that was reached after passing through the hole and going below the paper itself.

I already explained size of gap.

Same blank slate, beyond hole was merely another paintable picture to them.

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, because Umineko has multiple ladders with a higher one being completely outside the lower one. Also the difference between steps is clearly shown to be just as big as the ones needed to reach there in the first place(All being R>F)

That was only a example. Idk why you are arguing over example. But first steps of a ladder can be 10D and last steps 100D and outerversal. Fiction doesn't need to following logic.

It's not about how it's treated it the verse. You can do as much "dude trust me" as you want, it doesn't change the fact that in the painting analogy the hole is something on the same ontological level as the canvas and the painter. Twilight beach isn't singularity, but just one of the paintable realms in it. If they make a hole and fall further they will reach deeper.

I posted dozens scans for backing up my claims and you are only using rhetoric for proving your points with 0 evidence but headcanon. But somehow i'm "dude trust me" in thread?! I already debunked that. Singularity is beyond multiverse but merely another picture to taikyoku. Since when there was some no name paintable realms in singularity and some unpaintable ones?! because it never stated and implied. It stated twiligh beach is singularity not some no name paintable realms of singularity. It stated Ren and Reinhard are capable of recoloring singularity not some no name paintable realms. It stated singularity (Not just no name parts of it) is a part of creation and canvas, same as multiverse and taikyoku will paint over creation and canvas.

They clearly aren't the same as singularity holds a very clear speciality of being colourless Taiji.
It's very clearly and explictly stated in-verse that in the painting analogy the singularity is a hole, achieved when the painter puts too much pressure on the paper. The meaning and intent is very clear.

Story threatened singularity as something 1-A to multiverse but not any better than multiverse against taikyoku. Merely another picture. You also ignored taikyoku fully transcends singularity, throne and all their extensions. So somehow it fully transcends them and exists outside of them but only multiverse is a picture to taikyoku not singularity? even as burden of evidence is mostly on my side and singularity always was threatened as a joke against taikyoku.

 

[Infera28]

I change my stance to disagreement with downgrade.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

The English translation for Dies Irae is very bad, if not mediocre at best. Not only in terms of feats, but also entire translation quality as a whole. There's a major reason that the English translation is heavilly criticized by those who have read Japanese version first.

 

[Darksmash]

You do realize its because of the godhead that has caused the hadous all the headache due to their very nature to just clash (hadous just try to devour any other hadou in the vicinity anyway) when we know that even weaker gudous can just jump into Hajun's singularity who is not only much deeper than merc's as Yakou commented with the depth not being vague at all. Hell its those that have taiji that can cross it just fine. To put it basically gudous or Hadous don't care about the size. Hadous troubles stem from their inherit nature to clash with the godhead themselves and must challenge them with the same taiji or more. Otherwise regardless of the size like with Hajun's singularity even weaker gudous just cross it fairly qucikly.

I have already addressed this stuff a trillion times and do not wish to repeat myself again. So I will just respond to the underlined part

From the KKK VFB QnA linked by Ant:

The strength of the Hadou God depends on their rank (the power of their Craving to paint over their surroundings), and the size of the area they control along with the quantity and quality of their Legion, so a Hadou God's strength depends on the number of souls they control (with the exception of Hajun).

I already explained why that is irrelevant. Yes singularity is beyond foreknowledge picture or multiverse but it still is merely another paintable picture for taikyoku without any difference. It multiple times stated taikyoku controls all things in creation, paints over creation and canvas and then it multiple times stated singularity (blank slate not hole) is merely another part of creation and canvas. Maybe a higher part but still another part of it. Even a part of the singularity was stated to be picture.

Holes were akin to the one made in multiverse and same as that. that one was 1-A to previous step and they could make infinite similar holes in singularity which already was 1-A, without any end. If it doesn't give us a clear sign of transcendence then idk what was point of statement in story.

First off being something that is painted on is not an ontological difference either, so it doesn't matter. Secondly the blank slate was clearly reached after drilling a hole in the paper, and they clearly talked about drilling more holes and going even further downwards. it's pretty clear what they mean.

And the last part is just hilariously wrong. Making holes=/= transcending. the first hole was made in the paper, not the multiverse drawn on the paper.

I never said singularity is 1-A+. I only was trying to saying singularity is a picture to taikyoku.

I didn't say that you were saying it's 1-A+. I said you yourself presented an argument that it can be expanded so much that a Hadou God be unable to cross it.

Looking at how Marie painted Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius, erasing and turning them into pictures of her new world. In combination with other info it can support difference between each taikyoku being a reality-fiction transcendence.

I still don't see anything here. Sounds pretty vague. You should elaborate more, because the difference between what is inside the painting and outside the painting in Shinzaverse is a temporal superiority. And as far as I am concerned no Hadou God temporally transcended another Hadou God.

I already explained size of gap.

Same blank slate, beyond hole was merely another paintable picture to them.

The singularity isn't the blank slate. It's the "hole" which they went through to arrive at the blank slate. Besides, both the blank slate and the hole are on the same ontological level as the painter so it matters not.

That was only a example. Idk why you are arguing over example. But first steps of a ladder can be 10D and last steps 100D and outerversal. Fiction doesn't need to following logic.

I still have 0 clue what you are trying to say here.

posted dozens scans for backing up my claims and you are only using rhetoric for proving your points with 0 evidence but headcanon. But somehow i'm "dude trust me" in thread?! I already debunked that. Singularity is beyond multiverse but merely another picture to taikyoku. Since when there was some no name paintable realms in singularity and some unpaintable ones?! because it never stated and implied. It stated twiligh beach is a part of singularity not some no name paintable realms of singularity. It stated Ren and Reinhard are capable of recoloring singularity not some no name paintable realms. It stated singularity (Not just no name parts of it) is a part of creation and canvas, same as multiverse and taikyoku will paint over creation and canvas.

Posting scans=/=posting relevant scans when the discrepancy between the scans and the claims is massive. The word "singularity" was never used for twilight beach in any of the scans, and to my knowledge it's pretty consistently portrayed that the twilight beach is just some part of it. The analogy is crystal clear, the singularity is(are) a hole(s) in the paper below which they found the blank slate, and if they make more holes they will continue to fall even downwards.

Story threatened singularity as something 1-A to multiverse but not any better than multiverse against taikyoku. Merely another picture. You also ignored taikyoku fully transcends singularity, throne and all their extensions. So somehow it fully transcends them and exists outside of them but only multiverse is a picture to taikyoku not singularity? even as burden of evidence is mostly on my side and singularity always was threatened as a joke against taikyoku.

There is a difference between something that is a drawing on the paper(multiverse) and something that exists at the same level of existence as the medium of drawing itself(paper/singularity/blank slate yada yada)

It's such a big joke against Taikyoku yet it can be expanded to be big enough that a Hadou God ***** their pants in trying to cross it. Yea doesn't make much sense.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

The strength of the Hadou God depends on their rank (the power of their Craving to paint over their surroundings), and the size of the area they control along with the quantity and quality of their Legion, so a Hadou God's strength depends on the number of souls they control (with the exception of Hajun).

THat mostly matters to stuff like when you have the same taiji as the godhead has a lot of souls and such. This is what initially makes ren almost lost in 3 colors due to having practically no other souls to fight with until a turn around happened. Their taiji were still the same. And a god by default if they are the godhead would have already have the singularity under their domain regardless on its size

I don't think you get the point here because as I kept saying the size wasn't their issue at all. It's the hadous clashing of the godhead itself that passively happens due to their nature. Its weirder to assume that they care about expansions of the singularity when the weaker ones didn't care how big hajun's was. It was the nature of the gods that just let the gudous jump in and arrive on short notice. Again the hadous nature to devour other hadous are the reason why they had to clash in anyway. And do i have to remind the fact the throne is the way it is cuz of how a hadou god works i.e. their existence just makes all of creation turn to dust like its nothing. So the problem here is the misunderstanding that the gods are not above any expansions when they are with how the gudous went in but hadous while can easily do the same thing have to do it with a clashing resistence with the godhead due to hadou nature of devouring

 

[Darksmash]

Its weirder to assume that they care about expansions of the singularity when the weaker ones didn't care how big hajun's was.

or maybe it just isn't as big when the Gudous crossed it. Either it did not retain it's size or Size was not the main factor in the first place. They are not High 1-A either way

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Or maybe not as big when gudous cross it

Yakou was confirming it was way bigger than merc with the depths being far deeper and such

Nothing also indicates it got smaller at all...

 

[Infera28]

First off being something that is painted on is not an ontological difference either, so it doesn't matter. Secondly the blank slate was clearly reached after drilling a hole in the paper, and they clearly talked about drilling more holes and going even further downwards. it's pretty clear what they mean.

And the last part is just hilariously wrong. Making holes=/= transcending. the first hole was made in the paper, not the multiverse drawn on the paper.

It was same reality-fiction difference between taikyoku and painting multiverse. It stated taikyoku paints over creation and canvas and similar to multiverse, singularity is creation and canvas. Based on your logic multiverse is 2D picture to taikyoku but singularity 3D picture but it never was stated and implied. Singularity and Multiverse were threatened as same thing to taikyoku and taikyoku fully, equally and fictionally transcends both and exists outside of them. Nothing makes singularity any better than multiverse against taikyoku.
I think you can't get it. I'm trying to using hole analogy for proving that difference between each taikyoku is minimum infinite. Hole was transcending previous stage or multiverse and they were trying to making same form holes in singularity. It was clearly referred to infinitely transcending singularity over and over and not reaching to throne. If you pay attention to contex, holes in context were referred to Ren and Reinhard trying to further drilling through singularity by making new holes, then another holes in previous holes and going through them, ad infinitum. Without any end. That cleary puts a infinite transcendence between each taikyoku.

And as far as I am concerned no Hadou God temporally transcended another Hadou God.

Marie was capable of putting Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius into her picture/multiverse and they still had relative taikyoku. I'm not saying relative hadou gods have fictional transcendence to each other but they can fictionally transcend each other, regardless of having relative taikyoku. I only used it for supporting another claim. It wasn't a premise.

The singularity isn't the blank slate. It's the "hole" which they went through to arrive at the blank slate. Besides, both the blank slate and the hole are on the same ontological level as the painter so it matters not.

At least finish novel then try to downgrading verse because you are severaly wrong. ripping a hole in its vast canvas. Beyond it lay a space devoid of color ___ the singularity of the world.

And no they aren't on the same ontological level as the painter at all. I already millions times explained why and i don't bother again. Go and re read every post from me aswell as re reading scans.

The word "singularity" was never used for twilight beach in any of the scans, and to my knowledge it's pretty consistently portrayed that the twilight beach is just some part of it

They are same

ripping a hole in its vast canvas. Beyond it lay a space devoid of color _ the singularity of the world. Yet the girl of twilight refuse to grace her former abode with a glance. She had been ashamed of the time she spent as a prisoner to this colorless space. They broke through the twilight, digging ever deeper into the breach: towards the source of the very cosmos and mankind _ the Throne.

He threw a glance at it before nonchalantly releasing it on the twilight beach. This is the singularity of creation.

A single glance was enough for me to comprehend this place and its nature. Marie used to linger here, but the place was deserted once she had emanated with me.

And some no name paintable parts and some no name unpaintable parts is headcanon and i already explained why.

There is a difference between something that is a drawing on the paper(multiverse) and something that exists at the same level of existence as the medium of drawing itself(paper/singularity/blank slate yada yada)

It's such a big joke against Taikyoku yet it can be expanded to be big enough that a Hadou God ***** their pants in trying to cross it. Yea doesn't make much sense.

Already debunked. Also both parts are false equivalence.

This is my last post in thread because our argument is turned into ad nauseam and i already proved my claims enough to anyone else and moderators. I can't bother again for repeating and re posting same shit. I can't wake someone who pretends to be asleep

You also never read shinza blogs, you never finished novel, never presented any significant evidence, let alone as much evidence as me or any other knowledgeable member and you even misinterpreted your little evidence too. You are only trying to proving your points through rhetoric not evidence. I even mentioned some of your mistakes regarding singularity and twiligh beach so to be honest, you do not have enough credit for downgrading verse.

 

[Amakasu]

Damn, my favorite Verse other than elder scrolls is getting downgraded.... No

 

[Sparteh]

After reading all of this my head hurts. I will keep it short because pretty much everything I want to say has already been said by someone else.

I came here as neutral, but after reading all the comments here, I have to say that while both sides have some good points, however I am leaning towards Tony's and Redgrave's side, because their arguments seem more convincing and grounded. On the other hand, there seems to be a bit of lack of strong arguments and evidence to support the downgrade.
Therefore, at least for now I am against the downgrade.

 

[Darksmash]

It was same reality-fiction difference between taikyoku and painting multiverse. It stated taikyoku paints over creation and canvas and similar to multiverse, singularity is creation and canvas. Based on your logic multiverse is 2D picture to taikyoku but singularity 3D picture but it never was stated and implied. Singularity and Multiverse were threatened as same thing to taikyoku and taikyoku fully, equally and fictionally transcends both and exists outside of them. Nothing makes singularity any better than multiverse against taikyoku.
I think you can't get it. I'm trying to using hole analogy for proving that difference between each taikyoku is minimum infinite. Hole was transcending previous stage or multiverse and they were trying to making same form holes in singularity. It was clearly referred to infinitely transcending singularity over and over and not reaching to throne. If you pay attention to contex, holes in context were referred to Ren and Reinhard trying to further drilling through singularity by making new holes, then another holes in previous holes and going through them, ad infinitum. Without any end. That cleary puts a infinite transcendence between each taikyoku.

I get what you are trying to do, but you don't get the obvious issues I have pointed out in your logic.
The quote used for R>F interaction in Shinzaverse is "No matter how fiery the fire drawn in the painting, it cannot burn reality"
This quote is very explictly talking about objects drawn on the painting, from the point of view of the fiction itself. A fire drawn on the paper is real from the perspective of the characters living in the painting world, however from the perspective of the real world they are all equally unreal because they are just mere paint from the higher perspective. This can NOT apply to the singularity because it's a hole in the canvas itself, something that has weight and objective existence from the perspective of the reality.

The "hole" existed from the perspective of the paper, not the perspective of the ontologically inferior world of the multiverse. Henceforth all the holes existed in this qualitatively higher perspective. There is absolutely no R>F transcendence involved in drilling the holes.

Marie was capable of putting Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius into her picture/multiverse and they still had relative taikyoku. I'm not saying relative hadou gods have fictional transcendence to each other but they can fictionally transcend each other, regardless of having relative taikyoku. I only used it for supporting another claim. It wasn't a premise.

I will need more context, because Hadou Gods by their nature are very much capable of pressuring the paper to create the singularity. Could be something unique to Marie.

At least finish novel then try to downgrading verse because you are severaly wrong. ripping a hole in its vast canvas. Beyond it lay a space devoid of color ___ the singularity of the world.

I may not have had the pleasure of completing the novel, but I believe at the very least I know what I am talking about. The singularity is very clearly explained as the hole and they arrived at the blank slate when they went below it. The singularity very clearly refers to the act of going downwards through these "holes", arriving at a space at each level.
Both the singularity and twilight beach can be colourless, that does not equate them with one another and will not cancel out the total context we have on this. Considering how flowery Masada's stuff already is, you shouldn't overlook the overall context that has been very clearly conveyed in favour of equating something to something else entirely because they appear to have some matching descriptions.

And no they aren't on the same ontological level as the painter at all. I already millions times explained why and i don't bother again. Go and re read every post from me aswell as re reading scans.

i don't care. I have explained it. Nepuko has understood it and explained it even better than I could have. If you didn't get it then no point in trying further.

They are same

ripping a hole in its vast canvas. Beyond it lay a space devoid of color _ the singularity of the world. Yet the girl of twilight refuse to grace her former abode with a glance. She had been ashamed of the time she spent as a prisoner to this colorless space. They broke through the twilight, digging ever deeper into the breach: towards the source of the very cosmos and mankind _ the Throne.

He threw a glance at it before nonchalantly releasing it on the twilight beach. This is the singularity of creation.

A single glance was enough for me to comprehend this place and its nature. Marie used to linger here, but the place was deserted once she had emanated with me.

And some no name paintable parts and some no name unpaintable parts is headcanon and i already explained why.

It looks like Masada cannot decide whether the singularity is the hole or the region below the hole, my apologies. I suppose the verse itself is inconsistent with it. However, it does not matter, as I have already explained, it's still something beyond the world inside the painting. It can be a canvas i itself, but a canvas is something that has objective existence on reality as well. hence the R>F quotes will still not apply to it.

Already debunked. Also both parts are false equivalence.

This is my last post in thread because our argument is turned into ad nauseam and i already proved my claims enough to anyone else and moderators. I can't bother again for repeating and re posting same shit. I can't wake someone who pretends to be asleep

Same. No offense, but I have been repeating the same arguments again and again to a bunch of people who have no idea what is needed to get High 1-A in the first place, or why Hadou Gods even got it. It's just a circlejerk and it's taking a toll on my mental health.

You also never read shinza blogs, you never finished novel, never presented any significant evidence, let alone as much evidence as me or any other knowledgeable member and you even misinterpreted your little evidence too. You are only trying to proving your points through rhetoric not evidence. I even mentioned some of your mistakes regarding singularity and twiligh beach so to be honest, you do not have enough credit for downgrading verse.

I lmao'd hard at this. I have read the blogs multiple times. And it's funny how you accuse me of using rhetoric and "not evidence" when in the very first sentence of my OP I said I have not completed the novel(Something that's the exact opposite of what I would do if I was trying to maximise the usage of rhetoric)

I like many others only have access to the blogs, Dies Irae and some japanese scans from KKK(Which is 90% of the cosmology anyway). With this limited set of information, I have tried to explain my points as best as I can even going multiple times to explain alternate scenarios and explanations and why in the end none of them achieve High 1-A. If anything I have only convinced people using the logical aspect of my arguments, because the most prevalent form of attack on this thread seems to be attacking my credibility.

The singularity part is honestly not my fault if Masada describes both the hole itself and the region below the hole as the singularity. However, I have already explained that whether you consider the singularity the "hole" or the blank slate below the hole, the main part of my argument still stands strong. The quote about fire inside the painting will NOT apply to it. And all of Red's arguments only give 1-A by themselves anyway.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Looking at how Marie painted Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius, erasing and turning them into pictures of her new world. In combination with other info it can support difference between each taikyoku being a reality-fiction transcendence.

The **** is this, she only embrace all Hadou and allow them to coexist, there is no mention of she painting them even in the bad english translation.

Edit: the misunderstanding caused by English DI is even worse than I thought. Curse you Gare.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Here's suggestion: Just using the Japanese raws instead and compare with English version if you can, the English translation as far as i can see is completely unreliable.

Why bother with the English scan when we can using the very original Jap?

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Here's suggestion: Just using the Japanese raws instead and compare with English version if you can, the English translation as far as i can see is completely unreliable.

Why bother with the English scan when we can using the very original Jap?

Here's the funny part.

OP used JP DI for his downgrade, then a wild Infe appeared and re-parrot English DI. Daily reminder that Gare is a bad translator pal.

 

[Sparteh]

Here's suggestion: Just using the Japanese raws instead and compare with English version if you can, the English translation as far as i can see is completely unreliable.

Why bother with the English scan when we can using the very original Jap?

While the suggestion to use raws instead of the translation (for accuracy) sound good in theory, but only a small percentage of people here speak Japanese, so it would require them to hunt down raw scans and translate them. This would not only be extremely time consuming, but no one can guarantee that the translation quality would be higher than the official one.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

While the suggestion to use raws instead of the translation (for accuracy) sound good in theory, but only a small percentage of people here speak Japanese, so it would require them to hunt down raw scans and translate them. This would not only be extremely time consuming, but no one can guarantee that the translation quality would be higher than the official one.

I would rather using my time to check the raws, instead of just relying purely on English translation. Official translation is not always necessary correct. Take Mondaiji as example, the English translation from vol 1 to vol 10 is horrendous and very inconsistent. I have to take time searching for raws and then re-translating from scratch in order to make its respect thread. Was it time consuming? Yes. But is it worth the effort? Yup. When you start doing things like this, you have to take your time and doing it step by step, there's no shortcut for everyone.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

While the suggestion to use raws instead of the translation (for accuracy) sound good in theory, but only a small percentage of people here speak Japanese, so it would require them to hunt down raw scans and translate them. This would not only be extremely time consuming, but no one can guarantee that the translation quality would be higher than the official one.

Machine translate has more literary than the low-quality English translation though, so in DI's case MTL win

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

My Mondaiji respect thread took 4 years just to be completed, so i don't see why you guys can't spend some time just to check DI Jap. No need to rush either.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

And I really hate the fact that some verses demand JP scan but others get away with English easily. The double standard is annoying.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Shinza uses 70% jap for 30% english to begin with anyway.

 

[Nepuko]

Why tho? singularity never was threatened as something greater than picture for gods either. So why we should assume that singularity is something much much greater?

My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku

Emanation is like a painting that uses all creation as its canvas

Singularity is a part of creation. It is singularity of creation. Multiverse is vast canvas for gods. Singularity also is blank canvas. a part of the singularity even was twilight beach picture. It multiple times stated twilight beach is singularity. Not to mention everything and any extension to them is external and disconnected to taikyoku, be it multiverse, higher dimensions, singularity and throne. It mostly implies taikyoku transcends everything at same degree aka reality-fiction.



But they aren't a part of multiverse, picture, canvas, creation or picture's hole. That's their difference. They transcended anything and everything. so painting in their case is only overpowering another color and reality warping each other. Yet singularity is a part of creation and canvas.



Let's assume that multiverse is 2D and hole 3D but they are same thing for Gods. so both of them are fictional for gods. Hole in this case doesn't exist at same level as gods.

Again, no matter what is being repeated :

-Canvas doesn't equate to what is painted on it in the painting analogy. It's only a support, it is "physical" in the analogy. I can paint Pepe the Frog on a sheet of paper, on my screen, or on the Eiffel Tower (granted I'll probably be caught or something). So, again, saying that they're blank canvases, giving quotes showing Singularity is a hole in the painting is helping the OP.

-By your own logic, since Hadou Gods themselves become canvases that are painted over in fights, then they should magically equate to the painting in the canvas of creation. No, the wiki doesn't work like that as this is a huge level of extrapolation. Since you yourself agree that it's bull, then you obviously should see why applying the same logic on the hole in the painting analogy is as equally bull.

What is being the canvas quite literally does not matter here. What actually matters is what is painted on the canvas. Meaning, I can paint a carrot on a sheet of paper, I can paint a carrot on the back of an elephant. I can easily rip the paper apart even if it is in the same plane as me, but the elephant can easily kill me with one stomp. Yet I still transcend the drawn carrot in both cases.

What matters here is the painting, not the canvas. Showing plethora of quotes clearly showing Singularity isn't on the painting but through it, such as Singularity is a hole in the paper and "wonder what is below the paper?", or the whole "rip off the canvas and singularity appears" only helps the opposition, aka the OP.

And you do realize that turning someone into pictures is done in many verses, and counts as Dimensional Manipulation or Reality Warp if no transcendence statements, right?

 

[Sparteh]

Machine translate has more literary than the low-quality English translation though, so in DI's case MTL win

Sorry, I can't take this seriously. At this point it feels that you are saying that X trash is better than Y trash.

And I really hate the fact that some verses demand JP scan but others get away with English easily. The double standard is annoying.

I agree with you there. Standards should be equal to everyone. However, this raises a problem. If you go with translations, there will always be inaccuracies, but if you go with raws, it limits the very ability to do anything, due to the language barrier. For example, all Light, Visual Novels, manga and partially anime characters would have to be done using JP information, while many Chinese novels characters - CN etc. This wouldn't work ether. So, you more or less have no choice than to give up. However, clarifying information using raws, like people tried to do, is pretty natural, especially considering the language difficulty of Light VNs.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

I agree with you there. Standards should be equal to everyone. However, this raises a problem. If you go with translations, there will always be inaccuracies, but if you go with raws, it limits the very ability to do anything, due to the language barrier. For example, all Light, Visual Novels, manga and partially anime characters would have to be done using JP information, while many Chinese novels characters - CN etc. This wouldn't work ether. So, you more or less have no choice than to give up. However, clarifying information using raws, like people tried to do, is pretty natural, especially considering the language difficulty of Light VNs.

That's what OP done from the start, using JP raw to point out the mistranslation of English scan. In the first place, to have a correct understanding regard of JP verses we must take extra step and verify everything with the original tbh, even if there are few that can read JP. Like Setsuna said, his Mondaiji respect thread took him 4 years.

 

[Sparteh]

That's what OP done from the start, using JP raw to point out the mistranslation of English scan. In the first place, to have a correct understanding regard of JP verses we must take extra step and verify everything with the original tbh, even if there are few that can read JP. Like Setsuna said, his Mondaiji respect thread took him 4 years.

Just to be sure, I never particularly targeted anyone for using a specific types of scans. In addition, I agree with you that the information should be verified before this discussion continues. There is no need to hurry, like Setsuna implied.
Like I mentioned before, I thought that both sides had good points. However, that is also a problem. Seeing the number of participants and posts, this seems to be like a big case, but seeing the number of neutral people and remaining parties splitting nearly 50-50, it shows that obviously nether side has a true advantage, therefore are not convincing enough. For arguments sake, if this downgrade passes, I can really see another thread like this popping out a few months latter with the suggestion of upgrade.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

That is a matter of future and beyond the scope of this thread, though I get your point.

 

[Darksmash]

The japanese stuff can be done later, for the intent of this thread we already have enough information

The thread has derailed quite a bit and it's going places that are hurting my brain.
so to bring it back on track I will try to summarise a bit:-

i) What made Hadou Gods High 1-A?

1) The singularity can have infinite transcendental expansions.
2) The throne is outside all possible expansions of the singularity.
3) The singularity is part of the painting.
4) This statement applies to the singularity.

Let's look at the arguments presented for each point:

1) The singularity can have infinite transcendental expansions.

This comes from combining this(It states Hajun's singularity is much much deeper than Mercurius's) with this
And arguing that the depth "differences" are transcendental because they are "undrillable" by the challenger.
However, I find this faulty. If the only reason the challenger is unable to drill through the singularity of the throne god with a higher divinity is because of directly facing them, we are left with these possibilities:

1) The depth that is talked about here is different from the depth faced by the challenger when directly trying to reach the throne. As it has been argued here that the reason Tenma Yato was unable to drill through is because it was "too deep" for him, but then it is argued that Gudou Gods, much weaker than Tenma Yato by their nature, can casually cross it in very short amount of time. This seems to directly imply that either:-
1.1) The singularity that the Gudou Gods crossed was not as big in size as the one Tenma Yato was made to go through.
1.2) What was blocking Tenma Yato was not the size of the singularity itself, but some other unknown esoteric factor.

Now, if the first point is true, that means that singularity expansions aren't transcendent in size. And if the second point is true, that means they cannot be proven to be transcendent in size, as the argument for that relies on the assumption that the challenger is unable to reach the throne because of size itself.

Conclusion: All Taiji users either don't scale above all possible expansions of the singularity, or the expansions aren't transcendent.

2) The throne is outside all possible expansions of the singularity.

Not so sure about this one, but as far as I am concerned I will try to explain my point

from the upgrade thread:

"As we know, the overall size of the Singularity varies greatly depending on the strength of the Throne God, resembling that of the difference between individual gods strength ― which are comparable to "layers" - themselves. At first glance, it would seem that the Singularity size is equal to the actual power of the Throne God. However, upon re-checking some scenes, it seems that this is not the case. While the former is most likely true, the latter is greatly contested by the feats and showings in both K3 and Dies Irae ― as they make it clear that the Singularity enters the Throne purview, and is inferior to the Gods ― no matter how much expansion done to it."

Right off the bat this doesn't really provide the actual context, but is just a claim from faith, however assuming it's true, we know for a fact that it will not include versions of the singularity powered by the throne god as the challenger is clearly portrayed as being below them, while this argues all gods are above these "expansions", so in the end we are only really left with something that is vaguely baseline 1-A or slightly higher into it. Aside from this, I don't believe the throne has a static power level either.

from the K3 VFB QnA:

Q. Depth of the Throne = Strength of the God?

A. You can think of it that way.

When the cosmology is modified, the throne modifies to encompass it.
Hence, I believe treating the throne as having a static tier outside all possible expansions of the singularity by default is inaccurate. It is true that for a given throne god Throne>Singularity by nature, but we know that both the singularity and the throne change as the godhead changes(complies with the godhead's strength)

Moreover, we know that the actual undrillable versions of the singularity are above the challenger(like a "Hajun powered" singularity, which couldn't be crossed by Yato no matter how hard he tried), hence by extension above the hypothetical throne of the respective challenger.

Conclusion: The throne is not static and given all assumptions should either scale along with the throne god or scale below the versions of the singularity powered by the throne god.

3) The singularity is part of the painting.

This is correct. As the singularity has been repeatedly and consistently portrayed as a hole in the canvas or a canvas in itself. However, the next part is the important one:-

4) This statement applies to the singularity.

"No matter how fierce the fire is depicted in the picture, it will not be able to burn a real person."

This quote very explictly talks about some object painted on the canvas. We can take a sheet of paper and create the painting of a fire and label it as being hot enough to engulf universes, but outside the painting its still just as irrelevant to the painter.

On the other hand, the singularity is not such an object drawn on the paper. It is a hole in the painting itself, something that has presence and weight in actual reality. Sure, it may still be irrelevant to the painter, but the power gap is not transcendental. A hole can be as small as the size of a pin head(irrelevant) or as big as to engulf your entire house(very much relevant)

Conclusion: The statement should not apply.

Hence, I think that High 1-A is undeserved with just the information present on the blogs and profiles.

Feel free to correct me if I said something wrong as long as it's not something really minor and doesn't affect the arguments

Lastly, I urge people to please actually read these points and the blogs for themselves and see where I am coming from. I may not be the most experienced in making CRTs, and it's possible my way of putting my arguments is terrible compared to the general standards of CRTs. However, I did this with a firm belief that there would be at least some people who will see what I am trying to say and reach their own conclusion instead of "OP isn't credible and trustable".

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I'm neutral on this since I (mostly) keep away from 1-A or higher verses in terms of scaling as well as verses that relies on fan-made/non-official translations plus I know next to nothing about Masadaverse but calling the OP as well as other users "not credible or trustworthy" is poor practice and comes of as extremely arrogant.

Not to mention the inherent problems of massive verses that only a few users can accurately understand due to language barriers but that's a discussion for another time.

Either way agree or disagree, I hope this CRT can go smoothly for all those involved.

That's my two cents, peace!

 

[Arcker123]

Looking over the arguments I agree with the downgrade.

 

[Planck69]

I find myself agreeing with the downgrade. Of course, some staff here would be appreciated as we can't keep voting endlessly.

 

[Lapsad]

After i read all of this hardworking , i'm side of agree with dowgrade

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

1.1) The singularity that the Gudou Gods crossed was not as big in size as the one Tenma Yato was made to go through.
1.2) What was blocking Tenma Yato was not the size of the singularity itself, but some other unknown esoteric factor.

Again the first is ludicurious to assume with the 2nd being unknown being explained on what made Yato not able to dive in. Not as big as before? That implies Hajun shrank in power when nothing implies that at all. Yato could cross if again his hadou wasn't forced to clash with Hajun's godhead which will be fruitless.

全世界を塗りつぶすという性質上、原則的に覇道神は同時代に一柱しか存在できない。
故に新たな覇道神が発生するたびに、既存の覇道神と新たな覇道神は覇権をかけて争い合い、勝った側がこの座を手にし（あるいは保持し）、負けた側が消滅するという神の交代劇を神座の世界では繰り返している。

Hell here it mentions how hadou's nature to paint the world as their law flows out will try to devour everything even the godhead so the reason was already there.

新たな覇道神が誕生すると当代の神が流れ出している宇宙の現行法則との衝突が強制的に発生する。

here too where a Hadou god will instantly regardless of intent paint over the setting

The throne is above the singularity regardless of expansions doe. I mean its the only thing that stands before a god and just flattening creation as a whole. Any god with taiji will be above both the throne and singularity and I'm really question where the hell is the idea Hajun's singularity shrank?

On the other hand, the singularity is not such an object drawn on the paper. It is a hole in the painting itself, something that has presence and weight in actual reality. Sure, it may still be irrelevant to the painter, but the power gap is not transcendental. A hole can be as small as the size of a pin head(irrelevant) or as big as to engulf your entire house(very much relevant)

I feel like we are forgetting how much the gods are like comparing to creation. You are fine with the singularity being part of the painting the gods have and there is the fact that the god's spiritual mass needed a catalyst to not break creation as a whole. Singularity can expand regardless but its not even going to be noticed by a god's who's weight is far above anything creation could handle hence the throne.

神とは森羅万象そのものであり、すなわち宇宙という生命体。

Its also the fact that everything in creation is a part of their body.

The argument i'm seeing here has to ignore the fact how the gods operate with the setting + ignoring how the gudous just go through Hajun's singularity without trouble.

 

[Darksmash]

Yato could cross if again his hadou wasn't forced to clash with Hajun's godhead which will be fruitless.

Yea, However as I explained if that is the case then the argument that "Yato wasn't able to cross" cannot be used to prove unamped singularity expansions are transcendent in size. Which will again take away the High 1-A.

The throne is above the singularity regardless of expansions doe. I mean its the only thing that stands before a god and just flattening creation as a whole. Any god with taiji will be above both the throne and singularity and I'm really question where the hell is the idea Hajun's singularity shrank?

That's very vague extrapolation and something I am not seeing tbh. For a given Era ofc it's 100% true, but can you really say for example the throne in Mithra's Era(Which encompassed a single universe afaik) is above the singularity in Hajun's era? Given that the throne rises in accordance with the ruling god, even going as far as to say depth of the throne= strength of the god.

However, even assuming that is true it will still only lead to something vaguely baseline 1-A, as the singularity expansions were not proven to be transcendent because the argument is circular and collapses unto itself.

Also I have no idea whether it shrunk or not. I am just providing possible explanations with the limited KKK info I know, and explaining why each possibility does not give High 1-A.

I feel like we are forgetting how much the gods are like comparing to creation. You are fine with the singularity being part of the painting the gods have and there is the fact that the god's spiritual mass needed a catalyst to not break creation as a whole. Singularity can expand regardless but its not even going to be noticed by a god's who's weight is far above anything creation could handle hence the throne.

神とは森羅万象そのものであり、すなわち宇宙という生命体。

Its also the fact that everything in creation is a part of their body.

No, all of that is 100% fine. But is that enough for the tiering system, and a tier as ludicrous as High 1-A? No.

The argument i'm seeing here has to ignore the fact how the gods operate with the setting + ignoring how the gudous just go through Hajun's singularity without trouble.

I am not doing that my dude, trust me I have no intention to misinterpret anything. I am just taking possible extrapolations with the information I have available and explaining why a tier as massive as High 1-A is not achieved in any scenario.

 

[Nepuko]

That's the thing, to clarify - you guys actually agree on most. Gods can no-sell unamped Singularity any moment and any time they wish. They paint the world? Yes. They lolnope base Singularity? Also yes.

Is that enough for High 1-A? No.

That's it really. This is still going on for one reason - the defendants don't seem to properly understand what it takes to reach High 1-A. Will the downgrade remove the fact that the Gods still are beyond unamped Singularity? No, why would it.

Will it somehow negate the fact that Hadou Gods passively Law hax and paint over creation? No, again why would it.

The only thing here is that as it currently stands, and with what is currently presented, the most important reason for High 1-A no longer holds. It would not remove the superiority they have, but it's simply no longer one of such a high level that would warrant High 1-A. Most of the defendant's posts are arguing about something that not only would not change if the downgrade goes through, but the OP even agrees on it from what I see.

Take for example a High 1-B character. What's happening here in the opposition is that they say this X character massively curbstomps this High 1-B character, to the extent that in some ways this High 1-B character could even be considered part of him, hence he is 1-A.

This is exactly the case with Shinza right now, just replace the High 1-B character by Singularity, and Character X by Gods.

Is this enough for 1-A? No. Does this change the fact that Character X is massively beyond the High 1-B character? Also no.

The actual core "issue" is the High 1-A tier. The OP understands what it takes to reach such tier. The defendants don't seem to do so. It is not like their arguments, scans are ignored - they are not, they are even agreed with most of the time, but it's simply not enough for such a high tier, and more often than not actually helps the OP in his point.


It's simple. Their superiority still holds true. But the justification no longer is enough for such a higher tier as High 1-A, as we can't upgrade it willy-nilly like that based on such a reason.

 

[Devil_slayer99]

The downgrade is making more and more sense.