Shinza Banshou downgrade

[Darksmash]

I also don't understand the "Singularity isn't part of the picture" considering its always being presented by Yakou as something part of it (a hole in the picture)

It's not part of the painting in the sense it's something that has existence on the same level of ontology as the painter. There is a stark difference between an object described inside a fiction and a hole in the paper on which the fiction is written(or drawn).

Taiji is the origin and everything above the series anyone who has it would by default be beyond all parts of the singularity and the throne since they only use it to make sure the cosmology doesn't break from existing. Difference of one taiji will instantly swat the weaker one regardless of law and the depth is just a measure to practically show that if u are weaker challenging the godhead is absurd anyway.

My dude that's just levels of 1-A.

Also all this Yato/Hajun stuff feels like slightly derailing but we know that a difference as big as a normal human and 1-A is just one layer into 1-A anyway so I don't see an issue

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Put me as neutral for now

 

[Nepuko]

Sigh. It's a bit weird for me as I was a big supporter of the previous High 1-A tier upgrade, but I have to put my honest opinion about this. I read through this, and I'll summarize my thoughts, the arguments (that I recall) for High 1-A in this post. Hopefully it's clear, and hopefully it helps whoever.

And please no more "you didn't even finish the verse!!", it's not like many of us here who agreed to the High 1-A upgrade finished it either. If any upgrade or downgrade decision needed that, only 3 or 5 people counting Alf would have the only say. Everyone else wouldn't matter because they didn't read it, and that includes people like Ultima and Agnaa (iirc) who helped the upgrade. Me included as well of course, as well as many other users. What matters for the wiki are the arguments presented and do they fit and/or make sense. Mods don't have to read an entire work to accept or deny upgrades or downgrades.

Alright, this is what I've gathered.

1- What do you need to be High 1-A?

Super transcend an infinite hierarchy of 1-A transcendences, with each 1-A transcendence being the system all over again. (Actually bigger than that in my knowledge, but let's do this for simplification).

2- So, what does it mean for Hadou Gods?

They need to massively transcend an infinite hierarchy of 1-A layers. From my knowledge, the main (or only) arguments for this are :
-Singularity is 1-A+, and the bigger more important :
-Hadou Gods transcend Singularity, with a painting analogy.

So those are the points that should be defended to keep the raiting, or debunked to downgrade it. This also means that if even one of those is invalid, the tier has to go.

2-1 Is Singularity 1-A+?

Likely the most confusing part here, it's like no one really knows about it. Even the supporters against the downgrade seem to rant about it, especially with weird or sketchy parts such as scans showing the challenger explicitely being unable to drill through it because it's "too deep". Hence either it does not retain it's size when it stops getting backed by the Throne God and should only scale to the TG...or, there is some other unknown factor/context at play. Regardless, confusing. No, what actually matters here for me in this post is the 2nd one :

2-2 Do Hadou Gods transcend Singularity with a painting analogy difference?

I originally thought so, seeing as I even agreed and was a big supporter for their current tier. For the longest time I thought it was a hole painted on the painting... but now looking at it, that doesn't seem to be the case. If the Singularity was merely a hole painted on the painting, then assuming 1-A+ still holds, the Gods are clearly High 1-A. But the thing is, it's not. It's been clearly described as a hole going through the painting :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/648938698884513816/813841379624222768/Screenshot_2021-02-20-20-58-21-68.jpg

Meaning, the transcendence analogy does not and should not apply to the Singularity.

Transcending the painting and transcending the paper containing it isn't the same thing. A hole in the paper is in the same "plane" as the paper itself, which in a painter analogy is also in the same plane as the painter, i.e. the Hadou God transcending painting. I may transcend what's drawn in the manga, but not the hole in the physical copy of the manga. I may still be massively above it, but I don't transcend it the same way I do the painting, i.e. what's drawn in the manga. It should be - and I agree with - Painting -> Hole -> Gods, but again... going back to Part 2 of my post, High 1-A is here in the first place because the hole aka Singularity was assumed to be part of the painting, as in on the painting, something I also thought at first. Which clearly isn't the case here, even supporters and knowledgeable people seem to acknowledge that.

Since the Painting Analogy no longer holds for Singularity, High 1-A has no lynchpin in my knowledge. Yes, it may still scale massively under Gods, the singularity, but it's no longer such an absurd and huge level of transcendence that would warrant High 1-A.

Hence, I'm changing from Neutral to Agreeing with OP.

Hope I was clear, have a nice day everyone.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Even assuming the painting analogy can't apply to the singularity despite the fact it's still called part of the picture by people like Yakou which I think lends a good bit of credence to it, wouldn't the throne transcend that still?

Considering the singularity is just another place under the control of the throne god, and the throne is said to exist beyond the bottom of that infinite hole. So it very much exists beyond it regardless of its size. Wouldn't that make the throne 1-A+ even assuming non 1-A+ singularity, which would make the gods High 1-A either way?

 

[PsychoWarper]

Yes the Throne contains both the Multiverse and Singularity.

“I honestly find taking any single of statement where a guy goes "Compared to me, you might as well be a normal human" to mean that they are literally infinite ^ infinite times stronger to be offensively bad analysis, personally.”

I dont know if this was for me or what I dont really care, I know I didnt use it in my recent explanation about Yato vs Hajun and mentioned it once but that is not the primary reasoning behind their tiering or the difference in their power, it was simply used as a supporting piece. Also Hajun didnt say that, Yato said it so this "Compared to me, you might as well be a normal human" isnt correct.

Anyway at this point discussing Hajun Anti-Feats and such is derailment and can be discussed more at a later date.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Considering the evidence on the opposition regards to singularity not being infinite blah blah, I am so sure this is cleared that you don't have to have 1-A+ cosmology to gain high 1-A, as considered in previous CRT that throne, taiji encompasses singularity regardless of its expansion. However the only evidence that could only side with the notion gods would be 1-A is if singularity is not part of the picture in the canvas that the throne encompasses. As far as the evidence goes, I don't see anything where it suggest singularity isn't part of the creation that the throne encompasses.

 

[Nepuko]

I am so sure this is cleared that you don't have to have 1-A+ cosmology to gain high 1-A,

Even assuming the painting analogy can't apply to the singularity despite the fact it's still called part of the picture by people like Yakou which I think lends a good bit of credence to it, wouldn't the throne transcend that still?

Considering the singularity is just another place under the control of the throne god, and the throne is said to exist beyond the bottom of that infinite hole. So it very much exists beyond it regardless of its size. Wouldn't that make the throne 1-A+ even assuming non 1-A+ singularity, which would make the gods High 1-A either way?

It is part of it in the sense that it's literally a hole through it. I can cut a hole in Mona Lisa painting and say it's part of it. The scan above clearly added context to where the Singularity is in regards to the painting, and the answer is clear - it's a literal hole going though it, and not what is painted. The character in my screen isn't my screen.

The fiction-reality through painting comparison works because of the implicit ignoring of the fact that the painting isn't lower.

The paint, the canvas, the paper, its all real. The image and what it conveys if a physically existent thing. However, normally when someone refers to a reality as fiction, it's because they view it as something that exists in someone's mind and not in reality, so we just take that common meaning.

A hole in a painting doesn't work with that, because it's a "physical" thing unrelated to the "idea" of the fiction. It is real, in a way unrelated to someone's thoughts or ideas, which differentiates it from fiction. No way is it transcendence to the level of what is being painted, what is "fiction."

Which is what gave High 1-A.

High 1-A is such a huge jump that you need vastly more than merely "encompassing" or "massively above" to get it. Things such as the Reality-Fiction analogy used with the painting. Sadly, this does not apply to the Singularity anymore. If any difference was counted as reality-fiction difference, the bigshots of Hadou Gods would have long since been Tier 0.

If no transcendence applies, then it would simply be vastly beyond Singularity in the 1-A hierarchy. Ridiculously beyond it perhaps. Still not High 1-A, as you need more than that, clear transcendence for instance. Something invalidated for Singularity.

We can't just make the verse High 1-A because of that. Just like how unless transcendence or otherwise was shown, a character massively above Infinite-D would still be Infinite-D and not 1-A.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean the Gods do paint over the Singularity with their own colors, iirc thats how they enforce it is that they paint over it and the colorless taiji within with their own Colored Taiji.

 

[Darksmash]

I mean the Gods do paint over the Singularity with their own colors, iirc thats how they enforce it is that they paint over it and the colorless taiji within with their own Colored Taiji.

It's because the singularity has more realms that can be painted on. Like the "Blank Slate" below the paper. Besides something that's painted on is still ontologically superior to something portrayed inside the painting.

It's pretty late so I will respond to the other stuff later, But Nepuko put it very nicely imo

 

[Nepuko]

I mean the Gods do paint over the Singularity with their own colors, iirc thats how they enforce it is that they paint over it and the colorless taiji within with their own Colored Taiji.

I mean, sure. They just don't transcend it the way they do creation. If I make a 10 cm hole through a plate and splatter orange paint, it'll be an orange hole, but it wouldn't change the fact that it's a hole through a plate, and not what's drawn in it.

They also paint over each other afaik, but they don't transcend each other that way. The overrided, painted-over God who loses a fight isn't suddenly part of the painting and below Hadou Gods on that high of a transcendental level...

The key here is transcendence. Gods are way beyond Singularity as far as I know, but equalizing that to the transcendence they hold onto a painting, which canonically is in a lower "plane" than Singularity seeing as Singularity is "physical" in that analogy, is just too big of an extrapolation.

 

[Antvasima]

The people who made the thread are familiar, Ant. This is just gatekeeping of the worst variety, you are outright dismissing anyone who isn't a few specific members because "other people said it was this" in the past and apparently their opinion is law.

It doesn't matter that there's a ton of blogs and pages when nothing in those blogs proves High 1-A for our standards.

Have you thoroughly read the explanation pages and blogs in question? Yes or no?

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

I am aware my dude. I was just replying to the "the superiority between gods are solid since dies irae"
Because, correct me if I am wrong, but Taiji system didn't exist back when DI came out, it only became a thing in KKK.

Granted, Three Colors came after the original release of KKK but there was no mention of it in the story of DI itself.

Idk what you means but ren rein and mercurius was on the same level and do you remember "higher count" Of taikyoku is a thing in dies irae?

Also if i didn't wrong, Reinhard one shotting ren because he boosted his atziluth to higher level than ren

 

[Everything12]

I believe the match was more a case that Ren and Reinhard were equal, while Mercurius was stronger than them, except for the whole Cancer Cell boost Reinhard which meant it was like a game of Rock Paper Scissors.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima The reason I do not have any interest in this is because I have way too many issues with the people here and this place, one of which pissed me off enough to not wanna work on Shinza WHEN I was the middle of ******* revising the damn profiles. Tiering or such doesn't mean shit to me unless that's part of it, and even then I merely was going for stuff like explain the many important terms and concepts in this verse, or any other I could be working on/plan to like everyone else here.

I don't comment because this thread is asinine to look at. I don't comment because I haven't done anything for Shinza for like almost a year outside of Paradise Lost and, lately commenting. And lastly, obviously as it is, it's because I do not care and have no interest in a series I may or may not consider coming back to. So I'd appreciate not being pinged here anymore, thank you...

Or if you do, I'd just ignore this thread completely and let the lot of you decide how to handle this yourselves.

Okay. I will leave you alone then. It is unfortunate though. I am worried that this verse might get more unreliable based on comparatively thin arguments.

 

[Nepuko]

Have you thoroughly read the explanation pages and blogs in question? Yes or no?

Ant, with all due respects as someone who read most if not all of those blogs, the overwhelming majority of said blogs are to set up the cosmology, with nothing in there having to really do with High 1-A. It's akin to making a thread saying how Featherine isn't in the 3rd Domain but a 5th (hypothetically) due to dubious quotes, then you come in and tell people to go read explanations on makes a Witch Game...xD. The blogs related to the issue in some way are the first 3(somewhat) and the 2nd to last one, if you needed to know. But they honestly won't change much to the situation, as it is a different issue.

The original arguments for High 1-A and their flaws are already clear, see this summary post, hope it helps :

Sigh. It's a bit weird for me as I was a big supporter of the previous High 1-A tier upgrade, but I have to put my honest opinion about this. I read through this, and I'll summarize my thoughts, the arguments (that I recall) for High 1-A in this post. Hopefully it's clear, and hopefully it helps whoever.

 

[Antvasima]

Sigh. It's a bit weird for me as I was a big supporter of the previous High 1-A tier upgrade, but I have to put my honest opinion about this. I read through this, and I'll summarize my thoughts, the arguments (that I recall) for High 1-A in this post. Hopefully it's clear, and hopefully it helps whoever.

And please no more "you didn't even finish the verse!!", it's not like many of us here who agreed to the High 1-A upgrade finished it either. If any upgrade or downgrade decision needed that, only 3 or 5 people counting Alf would have the only say. Everyone else wouldn't matter because they didn't read it, and that includes people like Ultima and Agnaa (iirc) who helped the upgrade. Me included as well of course, as well as many other users. What matters for the wiki are the arguments presented and do they fit and/or make sense. Mods don't have to read an entire work to accept or deny upgrades or downgrades.

Alright, this is what I've gathered.

1- What do you need to be High 1-A?

Super transcend an infinite hierarchy of 1-A transcendences, with each 1-A transcendence being the system all over again. (Actually bigger than that in my knowledge, but let's do this for simplification).

2- So, what does it mean for Hadou Gods?

They need to massively transcend an infinite hierarchy of 1-A layers. From my knowledge, the main (or only) arguments for this are :
-Singularity is 1-A+, and the bigger more important :
-Hadou Gods transcend Singularity, with a painting analogy.

So those are the points that should be defended to keep the raiting, or debunked to downgrade it. This also means that if even one of those is invalid, the tier has to go.

2-1 Is Singularity 1-A+?

Likely the most confusing part here, it's like no one really knows about it. Even the supporters against the downgrade seem to rant about it, especially with weird or sketchy parts such as scans showing the challenger explicitely being unable to drill through it because it's "too deep". Hence either it does not retain it's size when it stops getting backed by the Throne God and should only scale to the TG...or, there is some other unknown factor/context at play. Regardless, confusing. No, what actually matters here for me in this post is the 2nd one :

2-2 Do Hadou Gods transcend Singularity with a painting analogy difference?

I originally thought so, seeing as I even agreed and was a big supporter for their current tier. For the longest time I thought it was a hole painted on the painting... but now looking at it, that doesn't seem to be the case. If the Singularity was merely a hole painted on the painting, then assuming 1-A+ still holds, the Gods are clearly High 1-A. But the thing is, it's not. It's been clearly described as a hole going through the painting :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/648938698884513816/813841379624222768/Screenshot_2021-02-20-20-58-21-68.jpg

Meaning, the transcendence analogy does not and should not apply to the Singularity.

Transcending the painting and transcending the paper containing it isn't the same thing. A hole in the paper is in the same "plane" as the paper itself, which in a painter analogy is also in the same plane as the painter, i.e. the Hadou God transcending painting. I may transcend what's drawn in the manga, but not the hole in the physical copy of the manga. I may still be massively above it, but I don't transcend it the same way I do the painting, i.e. what's drawn in the manga. It should be - and I agree with - Painting -> Hole -> Gods, but again... going back to Part 2 of my post, High 1-A is here in the first place because the hole aka Singularity was assumed to be part of the painting, as in on the painting, something I also thought at first. Which clearly isn't the case here, even supporters and knowledgeable people seem to acknowledge that.

Since the Painting Analogy no longer holds for Singularity, High 1-A has no lynchpin in my knowledge. Yes, it may still scale massively under Gods, the singularity, but it's no longer such an absurd and huge level of transcendence that would warrant High 1-A.

Hence, I'm changing from Neutral to Agreeing with OP.

Hope I was clear, have a nice day everyone.

This seems like a good argument. I am neutral then.

 

[Everything12]

Honestly at this point its probably better to call unrelated Staff, as both sides have given quite detailed arguments and with a split of 21-19 no side has a clear majority despite a large number of votes. Yet theirs very few Staff among said votes for a CRT involving a complicated Tier 1 discussion such as this, so though the chances of any responses from them are slim it's better to call other staff at this point.

 

[Antvasima]

It is part of it in the sense that it's literally a hole through it. I can cut a hole in Mona Lisa painting and say it's part of it. The scan above clearly added context to where the Singularity is in regards to the painting, and the answer is clear - it's a literal hole going though it, and not what is painted. The character in my screen isn't my screen.

The fiction-reality through painting comparison works because of the implicit ignoring of the fact that the painting isn't lower.

The paint, the canvas, the paper, its all real. The image and what it conveys if a physically existent thing. However, normally when someone refers to a reality as fiction, it's because they view it as something that exists in someone's mind and not in reality, so we just take that common meaning.

A hole in a painting doesn't work with that, because it's a "physical" thing unrelated to the "idea" of the fiction. It is real, in a way unrelated to someone's thoughts or ideas, which differentiates it from fiction. No way is it transcendence to the level of what is being painted, what is "fiction."

Which is what gave High 1-A.

High 1-A is such a huge jump that you need vastly more than merely "encompassing" or "massively above" to get it. Things such as the Reality-Fiction analogy used with the painting. Sadly, this does not apply to the Singularity anymore. If any difference was counted as reality-fiction difference, the bigshots of Hadou Gods would have long since been Tier 0.

If no transcendence applies, then it would simply be vastly beyond Singularity in the 1-A hierarchy. Ridiculously beyond it perhaps. Still not High 1-A, as you need more than that, clear transcendence for instance. Something invalidated for Singularity.

We can't just make the verse High 1-A because of that. Just like how unless transcendence or otherwise was shown, a character massively above Infinite-D would still be Infinite-D and not 1-A.

This also seems to make sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, with all due respects as someone who read most if not all of those blogs, the overwhelming majority of said blogs are to set up the cosmology, with nothing in there having to really do with High 1-A. It's akin to making a thread saying how Featherine isn't in the 3rd Domain but a 5th (hypothetically) due to dubious quotes, then you come in and tell people to go read explanations on makes a Witch Game...xD. The blogs related to the issue in some way are the first 3(somewhat) and the 2nd to last one, if you needed to know. But they honestly won't change much to the situation, as it is a different issue.

The original arguments for High 1-A and their flaws are already clear, see this summary post :

If we downgrade the verse, would you be willing to update our three official explanations pages for it? That would be a necessary part of the process.

 

[Antvasima]

Honestly at this point its probably better to call unrelated Staff, as both sides have given quite detailed arguments and with a split of 21-19 no side has a clear majority despite a large number of votes. Yet theirs very few Staff among said votes for a CRT involving a complicated Tier 1 discussion such as this, so though the chances of any responses from them are slim it's better to call other staff at this point.

Okay. I will do so.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245

Would you be willing to make an effort to try to evaluate this revision please?

 

[Nepuko]

If we downgrade the verse, would you be willing to update our three official explanations pages for it? That would be a necessary part of the process.

Oof, I do not dare to take that role XD.

But really, as I said since most if not all are unrelated to the Tier, there's not much to change. I don't think there's even a "High 1-A" blog, at least among those you listed. Only this part really in the Physiology one, since it equates their transcendence over the painting onto the Singularity :

As a God with colored Taikyoku, they are incomprehensibly transcendent to those who do not reach the same level as them, akin to an artist drawing a pictureupon a canvas. Even such things like the Singularity (which only as Gods are they capable of painting it, and the rest of creation, in their color)

The "even such things like Singularity" will have to be reworded if it goes through, as the analogy clearly fails in regards to it. Of course, I still believe they are massively beyond it, but the point is that the analogy, which is the reason behind the tier simply does not apply to it, as it is not in the same "plane" as what is being transcended over. Canonically.

 

[Infera28]

Correcting some misinformation because verse is downplayed here

1. Difference between each taikyoku is cleary infinite and conceptual. Ren and Reinhard will continue endless downfall towards the bottom of the hole. They even can open new holes akin to the one they had made in multiverse. it mentioned "same type holes/akin to them" and those holes had 1-A transcendence to their last stage or multiverse, so mentioned holes are transcendental asf (You even can argue 1-A transcendence but ok). they also can open as much new holes as they want too, without any end and they still can't reach to throne. It also stated even if heaven and earth are turned over, nothing works against higher taikyoku and doing anything against it is impossible. Singularities generated by a God with “higher” quality would be immeasurably “deeper” than those of lower quality.

Its cleary size not some headcanon supernatural block. they can't "cross" it. It stated singularity is a "tunnel" and each singularity is deeper than last. Even if that isn't size but that still makes each taikyoku transcendental to last.

2. Taikyoku paints over concepts. Taikyoku even can overwhelm, overwrite and erase relative taikyoku, basically painting it. Damn that's why Ren was scared of unleashing his taikyoku, because he could paint Marie too. Now imagine gap between higher taikyoku and lower taikyoku.

3. Singularity being a hole, outside of picture and etc is irrelevant because taikyoku still can paint over it and it is not better than a picture either. Basically multiverse, higher dimensions and singularity and arguably throne are same shit to taikyoku, not better than paintable pictures. However it stated singularity is a hole in picture. Your logic is like saying I'm 3D but a wound in my body is 4D. Picture and Picture's hole (note it is picture's hole not something unrelated to picture) aren't any different

4. It stated Atziluth/Taikyoku transcends anything and everything, It is highest form existence and ultimate transcendence. Taikyoku is connected to everything and also outside of them. so taikyoku >>> throne >>> singularity. It stated throne is hyperdimensional, source, beginning and root of everything in cosmos and reality. Throne is consistently threatened as something transcendental to singularity and everything else in cosmos. They never called anything in verse as hyper dimensional but throne and throne is beyond every stage of singularity. Whole characters are fightning over throne too. If you think that throne isn't fully and conceptually transcendental to singularity then something is off with you

5. Throne is in bottom of singularity but that is irrelevant. First steps of ladder can be 3D and last step 1000D and outerversal. Look at Umineko for reference, each step higher is more than 1-A to last one.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Infera.

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

Correcting some misinformation because verse is downplayed here

1. Difference between each taikyoku is cleary infinite and conceptual. Ren and Reinhard will continue endless downfall towards the bottom of the hole. They even can open new holes akin to the one they had made in multiverse. it mentioned "same type holes/akin to them" and those holes had 1-A transcendence to their last stage or multiverse, so mentioned holes are transcendental asf (You even can argue 1-A transcendence but ok). they also can open as much new holes as they want too, without any end and they still can't reach to throne. It also stated even if heaven and earth are turned over, nothing works against higher taikyoku and doing anything against it is impossible. Singularities generated by a God with “higher” quality would be immeasurably “deeper” than those of lower quality.

Its cleary size not some headcanon supernatural block. they can't "cross" it. It stated singularity is a "tunnel" and each singularity is deeper than last. Even if that isn't size but that still makes each taikyoku transcendental to last.

2. Taikyoku paints over concepts. Taikyoku even can overwhelm, overwrite and erase relative taikyoku, basically painting it. Damn that's why Ren was scared of unleashing his taikyoku, because he could paint Marie too. Now imagine gap between higher taikyoku and lower taikyoku.

3. Singularity being a hole, outside of picture and etc is irrelevant because taikyoku still can paint over it and it is not better than a picture either. Basically multiverse, higher dimensions and singularity and arguably throne are same shit to taikyoku, not better than paintable pictures. However it stated singularity is a hole in picture. Your logic is like saying I'm 3D but a wound in my body is 4D. Picture and Picture's hole (note it is picture's hole not something unrelated to picture) aren't any different

4. It stated Atziluth/Taikyoku transcends anything and everything, It is highest form existence and ultimate transcendence. Taikyoku is origin of everything and also outside of them. so taikyoku >>> throne >>> singularity. It stated throne is hyperdimensional, source, beginning and root of everything. Throne is consistently threatened as something transcendental to singularity and everything else in cosmos. They never called anything in verse as hyper dimensional but throne and throne is beyond every stage of singularity. Whole characters are fightning over throne too. If you think that throne isn't fully and conceptually transcendental to singularity then something is off with you

5. Throne is in bottom of singularity but that is irrelevant. First steps of ladder can be 3D and last step 1000D and outerversal. Look at Umineko for reference, each step higher is more than 1-A to last one.

Very agreed with you

Heck taikyoku also repeatly been stated as source of everything I don't see why singularity doesn't considered as part of the place that gods can affect/control

It's also has been repeatly stated that the user already disconnected from and has control over the entire creation that would also contained singularity

 

[Nepuko]

3. Singularity being a hole, outside of picture and etc is irrelevant because taikyoku still can paint over it and it is not better than a picture either. Basically multiverse, higher dimensions and singularity and arguably throne are same shit to taikyoku, not better than paintable pictures. However it stated singularity is a hole in picture. Your logic is like saying I'm 3D but a wound in my body is 4D. Picture and Picture's hole (note it is picture's hole not something unrelated to picture) aren't any different

Thanks for your post. But for the underlined-bolded part above... no. That is.. that is such a big extrapolation and NLF. Just because they paint over it should not be equated to a reality-fiction analogy made with a painting, that is such a huge jump... Hadou Gods also paint over each other in fights. Are the fighting Gods suddenly part of the painting in the canvas now, that they're supposed to transcend? Them painting something does not make the painted all equate to the one in the analogy.

If a 1-A character stomps a High 1-B and stomps a weaker 1-A, High 1-B =/= 1-A.

The very link you linked there supports the OP. It says "tearing open a hole". So, again, it should not be part of the painting analogy, which is the reason for High 1-A in the first place.

Here is another scan for that as well :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/648938698884513816/813875790021525614/Screenshot_2021-02-24-02-21-18-20.jpg

Also, your analogy is false. Paper, canvases and pencils are all 3D. A hole, is 3D. A painting in this case, is intended to be 2-D. (A painting is also 3D,yes,but in a fiction-reality kind of comparison, the painting is an idea or a thought, no more real that a dream. It's like drawing a circle with a pencil. It is intended to be 2-D for the sake of functioning, as it is a circle, but outside of reality-fiction scenarios it's actually 3rd because of the small layer of graphite. But I digress)

It's simple really, we need to show that Singularity is part of what they completely and utterly transcend in a Reality-Fiction way to keep the High 1-A. Sadly, that is currently invalidated, and even the 1-A+ rating seems to be shaky going from some convos in previous pages between other supporters.

And we can't keep High 1-A based on fumes.

PS : Hitting the sack soon. Have a nice day everyone.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Nepuko. Good night.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Nepuko makes sense

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah nothing about the singularity explanation is High 1-A. It's just trying to get High 1-A by stacking stuff together. It's the Outerversal equivalent of jumping several tiers by beating up people.

 

[Infera28]

Just because they paint over it should not be equated to a reality-fiction analogy made with a painting, that is such a huge jump...

Why tho? singularity never was threatened as something greater than picture for gods either. So why we should assume that singularity is something much much greater?

My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku

Emanation is like a painting that uses all creation as its canvas

Singularity is a part of creation. It is singularity of creation. Multiverse is vast canvas for gods. Singularity also is blank canvas. a part of the singularity even was twilight beach picture. It multiple times stated twilight beach is singularity. Not to mention everything and any extension to them is external and disconnected to taikyoku, be it multiverse, higher dimensions, singularity and throne. It mostly implies taikyoku transcends everything at same degree aka reality-fiction.

Hadou Gods also paint over each other in fights

But they aren't a part of multiverse, picture, canvas, creation or picture's hole. That's their difference. They transcended anything and everything. so painting in their case is only overpowering another color and reality warping each other. Yet singularity is a part of creation and canvas.

Paper, canvases and pencils are all 3D. A hole, is 3D. A painting in this case, is intended to be 2-D

Let's assume that multiverse is 2D and hole 3D but they are same thing for Gods. so both of them are fictional for gods. Hole in this case doesn't exist at same level as gods.

 

[God243]

Agree with downgrade.possibly 1A +

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I have been away for 1 day and this is already 4 pages long.

Anyways, Infera is explaining whay I was trying to say before, thanks.

Edit:

Just because they paint over it should not be equated to a reality-fiction analogy made with a painting, that is such a huge jump...

That is exactly why Rav brought up the scans of Tenma Akuro watching reality (Mibu) as if it was nothing more than a picture and that no matter the potency it is still fiction to them and it works in the same regard for the gods and the singularity

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

WIth the addition of how creation is everything then I can also add that its part of the multiverse:

神は宇宙そのものであり、その力も宇宙規模の破壊力がある。『覇道神』に至っては殺意のみで宇宙規模の質量を叩き込めるため、神にダメージを与えるには最低でも宇宙を削り取るだけの規模と威力が必要。

Everything about creation is part of the gods body with the way they not only paint creation but also make it a part of their body illustrates the irrelevance of the singularity to them.

覇道神の巨大な質量に、世界は耐えることができないため空間もろともただ在るだけで破けてしまう。薄い和紙で山を支えるようなもの。そのため覇道神には超越者が腰掛けるべく存在する『座』と呼ぶべきものが必要となる。座を手に入れ、そこで流出が行われた時こそ、宇宙は完全に塗り潰され、新世界と新たなる神が誕生する。

Throne here is needed for the reason that the world cannot handle their sheer mass at all so by merely existing all of the world would just die so they need that to hold it off.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Ok, early 2020 we have Demobane downgrade and now we Shinza downgrade to start 2021? Karma is is a bitch.

Agree with the downgrade anyway, the Dies Irae translation by Gare is known as a bad translation by Japanese readers and K3 scans are known to be taken out of context, so this is something that ought to come tbf.

 

[Darksmash]

1. Difference between each taikyoku is cleary infinite and conceptual. Ren and Reinhard will continue endless downfall towards the bottom of the hole. They even can open new holes akin to the one they had made in multiverse. it mentioned "same type holes/akin to them" and those holes had 1-A transcendence to their last stage or multiverse, so mentioned holes are transcendental asf (You even can argue 1-A transcendence but ok). they also can open as much new holes as they want too, without any end and they still can't reach to throne. It also stated even if heaven and earth are turned over, nothing works against higher taikyoku and doing anything against it is impossible. Singularities generated by a God with “higher” quality would be immeasurably “deeper” than those of lower quality.

Jesus the exaggeration is real here. They don't go to a higher narrative with each hole.
The moment they made a hole they were already beyond the perspective of being inside the painting. Masada was very literal with his painting analogy, and the realms that came "after" it were all located below the paper through the singularity. The realm immediately followed by the paper was even directly compared to a blank slate. Of course a blank slate is superior to a paper, but it's extremely unimpressive at this scale. And sure, the singularities generated by a higher god are undrillable for the lower gods.

Its cleary size not some headcanon supernatural block. they can't "cross" it. It stated singularity is a "tunnel" and each singularity is deeper than last. Even if that isn't size but that still makes each taikyoku transcendental to last.

Different people keep saying different things about it, but it's upto you. If it's because of size you just proved singularity can be expanded enough in size to be above a Hadou God. In the end it all falls down one way or another.

2. Taikyoku paints over concepts. Taikyoku even can overwhelm, overwrite and erase relative taikyoku, basically painting it. Damn that's why Ren was scared of unleashing his taikyoku, because he could paint Marie too. Now imagine gap between higher taikyoku and lower taikyoku.

A painter can overwhelm another painter by throwing a stronger colour at them. What's to imagine here?

3. Singularity being a hole, outside of picture and etc is irrelevant because taikyoku still can paint over it and it is not better than a picture either. Basically multiverse, higher dimensions and singularity and arguably throne are same shit to taikyoku, not better than paintable pictures. However it stated singularity is a hole in picture. Your logic is like saying I'm 3D but a wound in my body is 4D. Picture and Picture's hole (note it is picture's hole not something unrelated to picture) aren't any different

I believe Nepuko already countered the later part of that statement, but you just argued above that singularity can be expanded enough in size that it's above a Hadou God of a specific Taikyoku value. Hence they aren't beyond all forms of the singularity.

Also merely being "above" doesn't really mean anything. A painter is above his entire canvas, which would obviously include defects like a hole. It's how big the gap actually is that matters. The singularity is also not literally just any random void compared to the multiverse. It's colourless Taiji, something special

Lastly, although this has nothing to add to my arguments, but just for correction what Taikyoku paints over is the multitude of realms which exist throughout the tunnel of the singularity. The "blank slate" was very explictly not the hole itself, but something that was reached after passing through the hole and going below the paper itself.

4. It stated Atziluth/Taikyoku transcends anything and everything, It is highest form existence and ultimate transcendence. Taikyoku is connected to everything and also outside of them. so taikyoku >>> throne >>> singularity. It stated throne is hyperdimensional, source, beginning and root of everything in cosmos and reality. Throne is consistently threatened as something transcendental to singularity and everything else in cosmos. They never called anything in verse as hyper dimensional but throne and throne is beyond every stage of singularity. Whole characters are fightning over throne too. If you think that throne isn't fully and conceptually transcendental to singularity then something is off with you

I mean you just argued above that the singularity can be expanded enough in size to be out of the reach of even a Hadou God. The one thing I dislike the most is inconsistency.

And it was directly said that depth of the throne=strength of the god
So a lower god obviously won't be able to compete unless the god stops backing these things(Like singularity/throne).

5. Throne is in bottom of singularity but that is irrelevant. First steps of ladder can be 3D and last step 1000D and outerversal. Look at Umineko for reference, each step higher is more than 1-A to last one.

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, because Umineko has multiple ladders with a higher one being completely outside the lower one. Also the difference between steps is clearly shown to be just as big as the ones needed to reach there in the first place(All being R>F)

Considering the singularity is just another place under the control of the throne god, and the throne is said to exist beyond the bottom of that infinite hole. So it very much exists beyond it regardless of its size. Wouldn't that make the throne 1-A+ even assuming non 1-A+ singularity, which would make the gods High 1-A either way?

Don't know about that, because if the singularity can be expanded enough to be above a Hadou God those relations clearly don't hold generally.

Why tho? singularity never was threatened as something greater than picture for gods either. So why we should assume that singularity is something much much greater?

My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku

Emanation is like a painting that uses all creation as its canvas

Singularity is a part of creation. It is singularity of creation. Multiverse is vast canvas for gods. Singularity also is blank canvas. a part of the singularity even was twilight beach picture. It multiple times stated twilight beach is singularity. Not to mention everything and any extension to them is external and disconnected to taikyoku, be it multiverse, higher dimensions, singularity and throne. It mostly implies taikyoku transcends everything at same degree aka reality-fiction.

It's not about how it's treated it the verse. You can do as much "dude trust me" as you want, it doesn't change the fact that in the painting analogy the hole is something on the same ontological level as the canvas and the painter. Twilight beach isn't singularity, but just one of the paintable realms in it. If they make a hole and fall further they will reach deeper.

Let's assume that multiverse is 2D and hole 3D but they are same thing for Gods. so both of them are fictional for gods. Hole in this case doesn't exist at same level as gods.

They clearly aren't the same as singularity holds a very clear speciality of being colourless Taiji.
It's very clearly and explictly stated in-verse that in the painting analogy the singularity is a hole, achieved when the painter puts too much pressure on the paper. The meaning and intent is very clear.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Ok, early 2020 we have Demobane downgrade

The CRT was a great read

 

[Darksmash]

That is exactly why Rav brought up the scans of Tenma Akuro watching reality (Mibu) as if it was nothing more than a picture and that no matter the potency it is still fiction to them and it works in the same regard for the gods and the singularity

Did you read all of Nepuko's reply? He had explained this part pretty well

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

the Dies Irae translation by Gare is known as a bad translation by Japanese readers and K3 scans are known to be taken out of context, so this is something that ought to come tbf.

Where TF did you even get this?

The singularity is just a tunnel to get through btw but they are all part of the god itself who as I mentioned could crush it by mere existence. And needed the throne to prevent such collapse.

Singularity expands as much as it wants the taiji will be superior as it is superior to the throne. Reach deeper but never will get to the godhead. I think the problem here is that ppl are thinking singularity isn't part of creation being painted over by the gods color which we already know they are and the Gudous as we know cross it without trouble which would already make it wack as we KNOW the gudous are weaker then the Hadous and mibu one of the weaker gods can do the throne in.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Singularity expands as much as it wants

Singularity has it's own will?

 

[Darksmash]

Singularity expands as much as it wants the taiji will be superior as it is superior to the throne. Reach deeper but never will get to the godhead. I think the problem here is that ppl are thinking singularity isn't part of creation being painted over by the gods color which we already know they are and the Gudous as we know cross it without trouble which would already make it wack as we KNOW the gudous are weaker then the Hadous and mibu one of the weaker gods can do the throne in.

I will put it simply in terms of tiers
What the Gudou's crossed was a baseline singularity not being backed by the throne god
And what the Hadou's are unable to cross is a singularity directly expanded by the throne god which makes it higher into 1-A/baseline 1-A

And it's not about whether singularity is part of creation or not. It's about how it's position is defined in the painting analogy.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

What the Gudou's crossed was a baseline singularity not being backed by the throne god

Pretty sure the Gudou's cross smth called Hajun's singularity??

And we did mention how creation is smth to be painted. I don't think anyone said the pencil or brush isn't 3D cuz its used to describe the gods painting over all creation.