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Shinza Banshou downgrade

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Kaizuka_Satomi said:
That is the reason I found issue with the whole "gap between each Taiyoku level is infinity" because the gap of Yakou and Ootake is 65 - 50 = 15 levels of infinity.
Click to expand...
The 65 Yakou you're talking about is Yakou who got resurrected by Ryuusui

the one you're talking about is just Yakou as Hajun hunting dog.

Big difference
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
It is immesurably deeper because Yakou comments on the singularity being infinite and with the god's has expanded to be immesurably deeper. The size of the singularity is irrelevant to a god after all as I kept saying even after all that immesurably deeper stuff.
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It is deeper, but the difference is no longer significant enough to say it's utterly transcendent. Besides, Ravenous's original argument very explictly used Yato not being able to drill as the main argument for transcendent size, which from our discussion is pretty much an irrelevant argument.
 
Its mostly to explain how much Hajun's singularity is in comparison to his predesessor. Merc shows despite the numerical values being not so different they wouldn't have arrived at all. Its just noting that in comparison to Merc's, Yato considers his predesessors finite and trivializing the gods before Hajun. But the main point is that in DI we already had mentions to how a weaker one can never reach and merc has to stop them from falling endlessly never drilling through him due to being weaker than the godhead.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
Its mostly to explain how much Hajun's singularity is in comparison to his predesessor. Merc shows despite the numerical values being not so different they wouldn't have arrived at all. Its just noting that in comparison to Merc's, Yato considers his predesessors finite and trivializing the gods before Hajun. But the main point is that in DI we already had mentions to how a weaker one can never reach and merc has to stop them from falling endlessly never drilling through him due to being weaker than the godhead.
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Ok now hold up, I thought we were already finished with this? They wouldn't arrive at the bottom because of directly facing the throne god. That argument cannot be used to compare size of the depth at all when we know without throne god's involvement they would have blitz stomped it. Besides the comparison analogy used by Yato was a temporal one, not a spatial one, so it still wouldn't clearly quantify the size.
 
Um I'm noting how merc already gave the idea a weaker god won't reach let alone beat him. A hadou needs to have the same taiji but a gudou wouldn't care no matter how many expansions the singularity has which we know is infinite in the first place and expands more and more because of the godhead but anyone with taiji technically would have blitzed without much trouble anyway. Again what I'm saying is the idea was already in DI based on how merc told marie route ren and rein they will fall endlessly indirectly telling us they are far weaker than merc is. But in rea route due to their taiji being the same they reached the end fairly quickly so yeah. Hajun is more to show how much it can expand but will be beneath a taiji god
 
To make it clear after asking readers, since somehow it was the start of another debate :

Amped and Unamped were quote-unquote "amped" and "unamped".

"Unamped" refers to the Singularity's default state when there is no reigning Throne God. It is not backed by any Throne God's Taiji value. Gods are superior to any kind of this type of SIngularity. Hence "unamped".

"Amped" refers to when there is a reigning Throne God. In this case, Gods go from "lol cut through any Singularity" to "undrillable, falling endlessly into it" because of it, well, being "backed" by the Throne God. Hence the on-the-nose name of "Amped."

The Singularity being different in those cases is canonically the case, and it is even in the Shinza Explanation Page :

The Singularity is under the possession of the Supreme Law/Throne God and is both that infinite and endless, and one reaches the "bottom" of it, it merely opens another greater hole that is deeper than the last ad infinitum, and beyond it all exists the Throne, and Gods exist beyond even that as shown by the meaninglessness of its destruction and by it being affected by numerous' Gods' laws
Click to expand...

Also, Redgrave.... are you implying Gudou Gods > Hadou Gods? Because that's just straight up wrong. Saying how a Hadou God needs to have same Taiji as Throne God to drill through their Singularity, but a Gudou God doesn't care about Taiji value and will drill no matter what.... no. Gudou Gods are still bound by Taiji values, their just can't increase like a Hadou God's. Shiori and Mibu literally drilled through Hajun's because X and Y, not because "doesn't care". His perfect law got cracked by Moksha, an analogy would be akin to having a part of your body suddenly going out of your control and suddenly harming you. Moksha is basically one of Hajun's "Cells" (Kyougetsu twins) releasing themself from Hajun law.
 
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Also, Redgrave.... are you implying Gudou Gods > Hadou Gods? Because that's just straight up wrong. Saying how a Hadou God needs to have same Taiji as Throne God to drill through their Singularity, but a Gudou God doesn't care about Taiji value and will drill no matter what.... no. Shiori and Mibu literally drilled through Hajun's because X and Y, not because "doesn't care". His perfect law got cracked by Moksha, an analogy would be akin to having a part of your body suddenly going out of your control and suddenly harming you. Moksha is basically one of Hajun's "Cells" (Kyougetsu twins) releasing themself from Hajun law.
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when have i said that? I told you that the hadous have the unfortunate problem of outflowing aka they WILL have to clash with the godhead regardless of will and just outflow their taiji. Gudous are self-contained so they will not run into forcefully clashing with the godhead.

Again there is no on and off switch for the singularity. Its the godhead that causes problems for the hadous but the size they get in isn't the issue (gudou's cross hajun's singularity no problem when Yakou with only 2 can cross it as noted in his page), its due to the hadous forceful clash with one another. No matter how a god expands the singularity anyone with taiji can cross but a hadou has to deal with the inherit fact they challenge the godhead.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
when have i said that? I told you that the hadous have the unfortunate problem of outflowing aka they WILL have to clash with the godhead regardless of will and just outflow their taiji. Gudous are self-contained so they will not run into forcefully clashing with the godhead.

Again there is no on and off switch for the singularity. Its the godhead that causes problems for the hadous but the size they get in isn't the issue (gudou's cross hajun's singularity no problem when Yakou with only 2 can cross it as noted in his page), its due to the hadous forceful clash with one another. No matter how a god expands the singularity anyone with taiji can cross but a hadou has to deal with the inherit fact they challenge the godhead.
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Sure, but that plays nothing in the Singularity drilling. Taiji value is what matters.

As for where you said it :

A hadou needs to have the same taiji but a gudou wouldn't care no matter how many expansions the singularity has
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And I specified what unamped and amped mean, and an on and off switch wasn't mentioned there. And not, Gudou Gods didn't cross Hajun's "no problem" because they're Gudou Gods, it's because Hajun was nerfed by Moksha's Law.

No, they can't just "cross it no matter what" if there is a Throne God like Hajun.

Edit : going away for an extended while
 
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Again a god can expand the singularity all it likes but to a god with taiji like Yakou (early game yakou mind you) can reach to the throne. A hadous problem is clashing with the godhead is a MUST. I never said a gudou > hadou at all because my point was that the EE crossed hajun's singularity (Yakou from when he had mukei and the group towards the end) is more to the nature of how gudous and hadous interact with the world. Maybe i worded it badly but the gudous show how little hajun's expansion is but Yato had another hurdle besides having taiji namely that he is a hadou that must clash with the godhead.

I think to put it better words to get to a gate you just need taiji but depending on which taiji it is (gudou or hadou) there maybe complications. A gudou would only need taiji to pass through. A hadou while could replicate the feat will have to have the complications/extra requirements to pass through the gate (Idk on this analogy rip. masada gave too much.exe)

Moksha's stick happen AFTER the group were in the throne so you can't use that for the crossing as they already arrived.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
I told you that the hadous have the unfortunate problem of outflowing aka they WILL have to clash with the godhead regardless of will and just outflow their taiji. Gudous are self-contained so they will not run into forcefully clashing with the godhead.
Click to expand...
Yes exactly. And because of that "Ren and Reinhard would have fallen endlessly" cannot be used to quantify size differences of the Singularity because it's a property that only Taiji gods have to face cause of facing other Taiji gods

Hence the "expansions" have no real metric to quantify how big they are. They are pretty much just finite size differences for all I care, as even Hajun's singularity was only said to be "much much bigger"
 
Red is trying to saying that taiji makes singularity immeasurablely deeper and it is already infinite. Hadou gods can't cross it due to law clash not size

Thats why gadou gods can cross it because they haven't law clash

Imagine A is hadou god. A automatically makes singularity immeasurablely deeper

B can cross or destroy singularity (drilling or transcending it into next stage or throne) but he can't overpower A's law so he will be trapped in singularity stage
 
Yes exactly. And because of that "Ren and Reinhard would have fallen endlessly" cannot be used to quantify size differences of the Singularity because it's a property that only Taiji gods have to face cause of facing other Taiji gods
Click to expand...

Hence the "expansions" have no real metric to quantify how big they are. They are pretty much just finite size differences for all I care, as even Hajun's singularity was only said to be "much much bigger"
Click to expand...

We already know its infinite and its expands with the throne god. It isn't just "much much bigger". I'm just noting again Hajun makes everyone's singularities which are already infinite and much more to the point of that falling endless and undrillable statements look finite in comparison due to how strong he is. And yet the point is no god with taiji will have a problem getting to the throne in reality that's my point. Like any god would be above all expansions of the singularity which i believe every page of the god's notes the inner depths of it are beyond the rest of it. I must also add because Yakou can also change his heirarchy of strength he also is able to be a "deeper" and more powerful existence existence as he traverse through the singularity at the time.
 
 
Infera28 said:
Red is trying to saying that taiji makes singularity immeasurablely deeper and it is already infinite. Hadou gods can't cross it due to law clash not size

Thats why gadou gods can cross it because they haven't law clash

Imagine A is hadou god. A automatically makes singularity immeasurablely deeper

B can cross or destroy singularity (drilling or transcending it into next stage or throne) but he can't overpower A's law so he will be trapped in singularity stage
Click to expand...
I get it, but in that case there is nothing to prove that the depth becomes "immeasurably deeper" in case of a higher Taiji value.

Sure it's already infinite. Sure it can expand more. But is that enough to equate it to levels of 1-A? No.
 
yeah and 5 pages is the longest i've gone. And i thought trying to marathon 2hu 34s was a marathon. But i'mma be busy over the weekend cuz some work so rip. I maybe able to reply just not immediately
 
That is fine. Thank you for helping out.
 
Darksmash said:
What's the context of that?
Click to expand...
Sakagami Habaki vs Tenma Yato.
TISSG7Redgrave said:
The shades are weaker than the OGs and have nothing to do with hajun other than how he is extremely incompatible with them.
Click to expand...
「ゆえに無論、あれは歴代の座、総ての太極を呑んでいる。すでに消し去った残影だが、記憶として使ってくるぞ」
「奴は六代目の座――己を含めて八つの太極を持っているのだ。その一つ一つを潰していかねば、斃すことなど到底できん！」

Except Yakou stated clearly that they have to destroy all of the shadows to be able to kill Hajun. Rindou have a legit reason to tell Habaki to conserves his power for Hajun only
SleepyTBubble said:
The 65 Yakou you're talking about is Yakou who got resurrected by Ryuusui

the one you're talking about is just Yakou as Hajun hunting dog.

Big difference
Click to expand...
Misleading as hell, Yakou's Taiyoku is revealed post Tenma Arc and he still have Hajun's Taiyoku. Heck, you lots only rely on the fact that no Taiyoku revealed during Eastern Expedition to nerf Yakou during Ootake fight, so I'll take extra step and this.

Yakou: それは既存宇宙を塗り替える所業であり、新法則へと移行するものに他ならない。
It is a work to repaint the existing universe, and it is nothing but a transition to a new law.

この現状だけを見るのなら、勝利への軌跡は成ったのだろう。夜行の世界がついに天魔の空を喰らい潰す。
If we only look at the current situation, the trajectory to victory has been completed. The world of nocturnal activity has finally devoured the sky of Tenma.

This part describing Yakou's world devouring Ootake's world, which is faithful to the rule of stronger Taiyoku devours weaker Taiyoku. Plus, because their world have the same color, Yakou overloaded Ootaka and making cracks appear on his armor. If this is not enough to indicate that Yakou has higher Taiyoku level, then show concrete proof as scan, not just hollow statement.

Since Red just ignored my question, I'll ask again. If a God with higher Taiyoku level will surely devour a God with lower Taiyoku level in an overwhelming fashion, how could Ootake nuke down Yakou afterward by removing his helm, admitting his death and unleash the oblivion? Try saying that they are match again, I've proved that Yakou is the one with higher Taiyoku level here and he is supposed to at least surpass Ootake one level of infinity, in other word, his world of death is supposed to devour Ootake's oblivion as well.

太極の強弱を凌駕した絶無の波動に次などない。

And yeah, roughly translating this means "there is no Taiyoku could surpass this nuke move of Ootake." A God with 50 Taiyoku could unleash a nuke that no Taiji could survive it, so what about the infinitely transcending part of Taiyoku? I need an answer.

Lastly, where is the scan proving that the gap between Taiyoku levels is infinite levels each transcending the last?

Edit:

Yato: 感じるぞ、座は近い。もうすぐ底に到達する
Yato: I can feel it, The Throne's location. It is very close.

This is when Tokoyo resurrect Yato. This statement need credit, because I think it explained how could Gudou gang cross Singularity and reach Throne: They are very close to it in the first place. And by that way, I could just play the "Yato can't reach Hajun's Throne" as "he's killed before it could reach it" as the result of the battle is already known well by everyone: Habaki get Yato's head.
 
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Before I go I probs should look at this part...

That doesn't remove my point that the shades were weaker than the OGs

That doesn't prove its 65 Yakou. Alrfy already pointed out that the 65 is when he got ressurected. Hell I remember Yakou even has a revised version of his taiji post ressurection so why are we assuming its instant 65 yakou here. I already stated even with the same grade and taiji value won't be an eternal stalemate because either attributes can come into play as a result.

You didn't prove Yakou had a higher taiji count. You had to ignore all the scans mentioning how a taiji fight works. Not in the same taiji value or grade? The law is null. It only becomes a battle of attributes if the taiji count is the same but it is secondary to the value and grade of the taiji. You are super hung up here on Yakou's end game taiji when nothing shows it 65 at that time other than a bigger headcanon when how they are fighting is consistent with the series of having the same taiji grade means u affect the other. Don't have you're screwed

太極の強弱を凌駕した絶無の波動に次などない。
Click to expand...

this says there is no surge of immortality that can surpass the strength and weakness of taiji.
Click to expand...

Not too sure but ootakes name is no where in that sentence.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
Before I go I probs should look at this part...

That doesn't remove my point that the shades were weaker than the OGs

That doesn't prove its 65 Yakou. Alrfy already pointed out that the 65 is when he got ressurected. Hell I remember Yakou even has a revised version of his taiji post ressurection so why are we assuming its instant 65 yakou here. I already stated even with the same grade and taiji value won't be an eternal stalemate because either attributes can come into play as a result.

You didn't prove Yakou had a higher taiji count. You had to ignore all the scans mentioning how a taiji fight works. Not in the same taiji value or grade? The law is null. It only becomes a battle of attributes if the taiji count is the same but it is secondary to the value and grade of the taiji. You are super hung up here on Yakou's end game taiji when nothing shows it 65 at that time other than a bigger headcanon when how they are fighting is consistent with the series of having the same taiji grade means u affect the other. Don't have you're screwed
Click to expand...
Missing the point again, Ren is ********** by two Hadous. x + x = 2x, basic math here. Heck, Ren didn't even reach his peak until the LDO betray Reinhard and join his side, so your point that Ren = Snek = Ougon during the phase when the boy overwhelmed, is moot. The real deal is, those three constantly devour each other, meanwhile in Yakou vs Ootake we have Masada, going out of his way, to state that Yakou outright devour Ootake and the latter could not devour Yakou back. If this is not Yakou having higher Taiyoku value, then what is? Think, please.

Oh yeah, all this day you keep mentioning the Three Color Battle remind me if Dies Irae, did you forget that Machina can punch Reinhard into oblivion? And the fact that when Reinhard uses Machina's power for the spear, it could outright kill other Hadou Gods?

So, can you answer me?

Kaizuka_Satomi said:
If a God with higher Taiyoku level will surely devour a God with lower Taiyoku level in an overwhelming fashion, how could Ootake nuke down Yakou afterward by removing his helm, admitting his death and unleash the oblivion? Try saying that they are match again, I've proved that Yakou is the one with higher Taiyoku level here and he is supposed to at least surpass Ootake one level of infinity, in other word, his world of death is supposed to devour Ootake's oblivion as well.

Lastly, where is the scan proving that the gap between Taiyoku levels is infinite levels each transcending the last?
Click to expand...
 
Thank you for helping out. I appreciate it.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
Again a god can expand the singularity all it likes but to a god with taiji like Yakou (early game yakou mind you) can reach to the throne. A hadous problem is clashing with the godhead is a MUST. I never said a gudou > hadou at all because my point was that the EE crossed hajun's singularity (Yakou from when he had mukei and the group towards the end) is more to the nature of how gudous and hadous interact with the world. Maybe i worded it badly but the gudous show how little hajun's expansion is but Yato had another hurdle besides having taiji namely that he is a hadou that must clash with the godhead.

I think to put it better words to get to a gate you just need taiji but depending on which taiji it is (gudou or hadou) there maybe complications. A gudou would only need taiji to pass through. A hadou while could replicate the feat will have to have the complications/extra requirements to pass through the gate (Idk on this analogy rip. masada gave too much.exe)

Moksha's stick happen AFTER the group were in the throne so you can't use that for the crossing as they already arrived.
Click to expand...

Sure, but.... this is just helping the OP. And you know what, let's just assume that all of this is hypothetically true. Then :

1-Not only does this not help High 1-A, it doesn't even link to it. What it shows is that at times Gods lolnope Singularity but that Hadou ones have trouble with TG ones because of their nature. Does it in any way shape or form change the analogy made in Shinza? It doesn't. Hence, we just can't keep High 1-A. Being massively beyond something is never enough to be considered a R>F transcendence.

2-This does not change the Tiers suggested in Page 4 after the downgrade goes through. Because the core aspect of the issue still is untouchable. Why? Because Gods are still beyond any "default" Singularity. Hadou Gods have trouble with Throne God singularity, the quote-unquote "amped" Singularity, as you yourself posted. So at least for Hadou Gods, the tiers would be as suggested in the Page 4 post. As for Gudou Gods, Masada even said they're generally weaker than Hadou Gods, so they'll definitely be of at most comparable tier.

This is just basically fighting over the color of sky. Is it clear blue? Is it cyan? What matters is that it's a shade of blue.

All of this is actually relatively semantics. Not to say that it is asinine though, since what it would change however would be slightly modifying the justification of the Page 4 post about Tiers. So it isn't asinine.

But it isn't relevant.

To the downgrade, this doesn't change what we fundamentally know already. I'd just like to know if you already agree to the loss of High 1-A, seeing as under the Tiering System, there is no way this can objectively stay. Your points are understood, but you're debating if the rhiniceros's horn is 100 cm long and not 98 cm long, while the core issue is "is this an rhinoceros or a unicorn?"

Darksmash already agrees to many of your points, and they can be accepted just fine. But please, please understand that as it stands, under the current System, there is no way this can help R>F transcendence and hence High 1-A.

You can't reach it by stacking up or by extrapolation.

Please do understand this. Let's be clear already about the main points. What you are currently arguing is about how high they would be into 1-A. We can always move to that after accepting the removal of High 1-A. Because it's been 2 pages already with not a single counter to the removal, and even completely unrelated debates to High 1-A like the latest one.

Once again. We understand, Redgrave. We really do. But the issue here is the Tiering System. The most you can argue for is 1-A+, and I'm fine with that being argued. But do understand there is no way for High 1-A to pass with what you're talking about, some of your scans even help the removal.

Let's first agree about the removal of High 1-A, as it's been 2 pages without a single actual counterargument and even a related debate subject to High 1-A.

We do this, and we move from a debate to a discussion. We can finally focus on what you've been trying to argue. But we're first in the High 1-A courtroom, then we'll move to the 1-A salon convo.

As far as I go, it is many times better if the defendants and the OP agree on the main points then discuss the resulting tiers/details, than deciding that on a vote.

To put back the Tiers in Page 4 :

Singularity : Varies(?), 1-A (Corresponds to "Colourless" Taiji, 0 Taikyoku value. The default size of the Singularity varies.)

Gods : 1-A (Beyond any default Singularity, each Taikyoku level difference is infinite(?))


How high exactly into 1-A? Would depend on the Taiji system workings. I myself believe that a Taikyoku difference is infinite at least from Infera's posts, but does it qualify for higher 1-A layers (I'd ask the defendant side to add more context to help this)?

If yes, and the same applies to Singularity "depth", then even 1 Taiji God is arbitrarily high into 1-A layers (depends on the highest end shown I suppose), with >someone like Hajun being ever-increasing into 1-A layers. I like to think this is the case, but I guess this'll have to be verified....

If no... then this all would likely be in baseline 1-A, but ridiculously high in it. Maybe 1 layer above at best.

That should be roughly the summary of the results. More in-depth discussions about which one is the case can always be done after first removing High 1-A imo, I suppose.
Click to expand...
 
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I'm sorry Ant but due to the language barrier and how I really don't understand the justification for the verse tier as it stands nor after reading through this thread, I can't confidently make any calls in how any of this should go down.
 
Duedate:

No problem. Thanks anyway.

Celestial:

Thank you for helping out.
 
Damn... this battle is lost at this point.

I guess ill agree with the downgrade from H1A, now personally if they are getting downgraded I believe they are 1-A+ not 1-A but thats a different discussion I guess.
 
I'm not even sure if they can reach 1-A+

That's kinda sad, but change my vote to neutral. Both sides have good arguments, although I'm kinda leaning towards downgrade one.
 
Well, I personally believe it to be so because if I recall correctly, the Hadou Gods go from "I can cut Singularity any time I wish" to "This is an infinite drop into Singularity, can't drill through" when quote-unquote "powered" by Throne God.

Which I believe means that the difference definitely hits infinity at some point. But as PsychoWarper said, I suppose that can always be discussed after the High 1-A removal is solved.

Then again the example I remember this from is most probably Hajun's, who isn't best known as the template for Gods... so we'll probably need input anyway.
 
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As far as I know...we don't list how high into 1-A a character is on their profile(unless blatantly 1-A+)
So I suppose the exact gap between Taiji values can be saved for some later discussion (perhaps a vs thread)

Anyway, today had been a very busy day for me so I couldn't spend much time on the thread, so I will update the agree/disagree list tommorow.

Also please don't see the downgrade as a bad thing. It's just trying to get to a more accurate tier from the given information and isn't the end of the world. And almost All the hax and explanations will remain the exact same.
 
Well, I was just concerned about that we rushed into things insufficiently informed, but it seems like there are valid reasons for a likely downgrade.

We still need to properly adjust our three official explanations pages in conjunction though.
 
Its hard not to see it as a bad thing personally

The Taiji Difference thing can be saved for its own thread I guess since thats its own issue and this thread is already 5 pages deep.

As long as the other H1A verses are looked at as well (As plenty of them, not all, seem pretty suspicious) ill have no issue.
 
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