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Shinza Banshou downgrade

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Given that our staff do not seem to want to spend the massive amount of time necessary to get into the arguments here, perhaps Nepuko and TISSG7Redgrave should try to work out a rational solution between them? They seem to be the most well-informed among the active debaters here.
 
Anyway, I am also leaning towards agreeing with Nepuko, but I reiterate that it is extremely important that somebody knowledgeable properly updates our three official Shinza Banchou explanations pages according to this revision, if it is accepted.
 
Antvasima said:
Given that our staff do not seem to want to spend the massive amount of time necessary to get into the arguments here, perhaps Nepuko and TISSG7Redgrave should try to work out a rational solution between them? They seem to be the most well-informed among the active debaters here.
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If 4 pages are too much for them - and they are a bit too much - they can check out these summary posts and choose wether to defend or agree with OP :

Nepuko said:
Sigh. It's a bit weird for me as I was a big supporter of the previous High 1-A tier upgrade, but I have to put my honest opinion about this. I read through this, and I'll summarize my thoughts, the arguments (that I recall) for High 1-A in this post. Hopefully it's clear, and hopefully it helps whoever.

And please no more "you didn't even finish the verse!!", it's not like many of us here who agreed to the High 1-A upgrade finished it either. If any upgrade or downgrade decision needed that, only 3 or 5 people counting Alf would have the only say. Everyone else wouldn't matter because they didn't read it, and that includes people like Ultima and Agnaa (iirc) who helped the upgrade. Me included as well of course, as well as many other users. What matters for the wiki are the arguments presented and do they fit and/or make sense. Mods don't have to read an entire work to accept or deny upgrades or downgrades.

Alright, this is what I've gathered.

1- What do you need to be High 1-A?

Super transcend an infinite hierarchy of 1-A transcendences, with each 1-A transcendence being the system all over again. (Actually bigger than that in my knowledge, but let's do this for simplification).

2- So, what does it mean for Hadou Gods?

They need to massively transcend an infinite hierarchy of 1-A layers. From my knowledge, the main (or only) arguments for this are :
-Singularity is 1-A+, and the bigger more important :
-Hadou Gods transcend Singularity, with a painting analogy.

So those are the points that should be defended to keep the raiting, or debunked to downgrade it. This also means that if even one of those is invalid, the tier has to go.

2-1 Is Singularity 1-A+?

Likely the most confusing part here, it's like no one really knows about it. Even the supporters against the downgrade seem to rant about it, especially with weird or sketchy parts such as scans showing the challenger explicitely being unable to drill through it because it's "too deep". Hence either it does not retain it's size when it stops getting backed by the Throne God and should only scale to the TG...or, there is some other unknown factor/context at play. Regardless, confusing. No, what actually matters here for me in this post is the 2nd one :

2-2 Do Hadou Gods transcend Singularity with a painting analogy difference?

I originally thought so, seeing as I even agreed and was a big supporter for their current tier. For the longest time I thought it was a hole painted on the painting... but now looking at it, that doesn't seem to be the case. If the Singularity was merely a hole painted on the painting, then assuming 1-A+ still holds, the Gods are clearly High 1-A. But the thing is, it's not. It's been clearly described as a hole going through the painting :


Meaning, the transcendence analogy does not and should not apply to the Singularity.

Transcending the painting and transcending the paper containing it isn't the same thing. A hole in the paper is in the same "plane" as the paper itself, which in a painter analogy is also in the same plane as the painter, i.e. the Hadou God transcending painting. I may transcend what's drawn in the manga, but not the hole in the physical copy of the manga. I may still be massively above it, but I don't transcend it the same way I do the painting, i.e. what's drawn in the manga. It should be - and I agree with - Painting -> Hole -> Gods, but again... going back to Part 2 of my post, High 1-A is here in the first place because the hole aka Singularity was assumed to be part of the painting, as in on the painting, something I also thought at first. Which clearly isn't the case here, even supporters and knowledgeable people seem to acknowledge that.

Since the Painting Analogy no longer holds for Singularity, High 1-A has no lynchpin in my knowledge. Yes, it may still scale massively under Gods, the singularity, but it's no longer such an absurd and huge level of transcendence that would warrant High 1-A.

Hence, I'm changing from Neutral to Agreeing with OP.

Hope I was clear, have a nice day everyone.
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Darksmash's summary also is splendid :
Darksmash said:
The japanese stuff can be done later, for the intent of this thread we already have enough information

The thread has derailed quite a bit and it's going places that are hurting my brain.
so to bring it back on track I will try to summarise a bit:-

i) What made Hadou Gods High 1-A?

1) The singularity can have infinite transcendental expansions.
2) The throne is outside all possible expansions of the singularity.
3) The singularity is part of the painting.
4) This statement applies to the singularity.

Let's look at the arguments presented for each point:

1) The singularity can have infinite transcendental expansions.

This comes from combining this(It states Hajun's singularity is much much deeper than Mercurius's) with this
And arguing that the depth "differences" are transcendental because they are "undrillable" by the challenger.
However, I find this faulty. If the only reason the challenger is unable to drill through the singularity of the throne god with a higher divinity is because of directly facing them, we are left with these possibilities:

1) The depth that is talked about here is different from the depth faced by the challenger when directly trying to reach the throne. As it has been argued here that the reason Tenma Yato was unable to drill through is because it was "too deep" for him, but then it is argued that Gudou Gods, much weaker than Tenma Yato by their nature, can casually cross it in very short amount of time. This seems to directly imply that either:-
1.1) The singularity that the Gudou Gods crossed was not as big in size as the one Tenma Yato was made to go through.
1.2) What was blocking Tenma Yato was not the size of the singularity itself, but some other unknown esoteric factor.

Now, if the first point is true, that means that singularity expansions aren't transcendent in size. And if the second point is true, that means they cannot be proven to be transcendent in size, as the argument for that relies on the assumption that the challenger is unable to reach the throne because of size itself.

Conclusion: All Taiji users either don't scale above all possible expansions of the singularity, or the expansions aren't transcendent.

2) The throne is outside all possible expansions of the singularity.

Not so sure about this one, but as far as I am concerned I will try to explain my point

from the upgrade thread:

"As we know, the overall size of the Singularity varies greatly depending on the strength of the Throne God, resembling that of the difference between individual gods strength ― which are comparable to "layers" - themselves. At first glance, it would seem that the Singularity size is equal to the actual power of the Throne God. However, upon re-checking some scenes, it seems that this is not the case. While the former is most likely true, the latter is greatly contested by the feats and showings in both K3 and Dies Irae ― as they make it clear that the Singularity enters the Throne purview, and is inferior to the Gods ― no matter how much expansion done to it."

Right off the bat this doesn't really provide the actual context, but is just a claim from faith, however assuming it's true, we know for a fact that it will not include versions of the singularity powered by the throne god as the challenger is clearly portrayed as being below them, while this argues all gods are above these "expansions", so in the end we are only really left with something that is vaguely baseline 1-A or slightly higher into it. Aside from this, I don't believe the throne has a static power level either.

from the K3 VFB QnA:

Q. Depth of the Throne = Strength of the God?

A. You can think of it that way.

When the cosmology is modified, the throne modifies to encompass it.
Hence, I believe treating the throne as having a static tier outside all possible expansions of the singularity by default is inaccurate. It is true that for a given throne god Throne>Singularity by nature, but we know that both the singularity and the throne change as the godhead changes(complies with the godhead's strength)

Moreover, we know that the actual undrillable versions of the singularity are above the challenger(like a "Hajun powered" singularity, which couldn't be crossed by Yato no matter how hard he tried), hence by extension above the hypothetical throne of the respective challenger.

Conclusion: The throne is not static and given all assumptions should either scale along with the throne god or scale below the versions of the singularity powered by the throne god.

3) The singularity is part of the painting.

This is correct. As the singularity has been repeatedly and consistently portrayed as a hole in the canvas or a canvas in itself. However, the next part is the important one:-

4) This statement applies to the singularity.

"No matter how fierce the fire is depicted in the picture, it will not be able to burn a real person."

This quote very explictly talks about some object painted on the canvas. We can take a sheet of paper and create the painting of a fire and label it as being hot enough to engulf universes, but outside the painting its still just as irrelevant to the painter.

On the other hand, the singularity is not such an object drawn on the paper. It is a hole in the painting itself, something that has presence and weight in actual reality. Sure, it may still be irrelevant to the painter, but the power gap is not transcendental. A hole can be as small as the size of a pin head(irrelevant) or as big as to engulf your entire house(very much relevant)

Conclusion: The statement should not apply.

Hence, I think that High 1-A is undeserved with just the information present on the blogs and profiles.

Feel free to correct me if I said something wrong as long as it's not something really minor and doesn't affect the arguments

Lastly, I urge people to please actually read these points and the blogs for themselves and see where I am coming from. I may not be the most experienced in making CRTs, and it's possible my way of putting my arguments is terrible compared to the general standards of CRTs. However, I did this with a firm belief that there would be at least some people who will see what I am trying to say and reach their own conclusion instead of "OP isn't credible and trustable".
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The latest reply from the defendant's to his points :

TISSG7Redgrave said:
Again the first is ludicurious to assume with the 2nd being unknown being explained on what made Yato not able to dive in. Not as big as before? That implies Hajun shrank in power when nothing implies that at all. Yato could cross if again his hadou wasn't forced to clash with Hajun's godhead which will be fruitless.

全世界を塗りつぶすという性質上、原則的に覇道神は同時代に一柱しか存在できない。
故に新たな覇道神が発生するたびに、既存の覇道神と新たな覇道神は覇権をかけて争い合い、勝った側がこの座を手にし（あるいは保持し）、負けた側が消滅するという神の交代劇を神座の世界では繰り返している。

Hell here it mentions how hadou's nature to paint the world as their law flows out will try to devour everything even the godhead so the reason was already there.

新たな覇道神が誕生すると当代の神が流れ出している宇宙の現行法則との衝突が強制的に発生する。

here too where a Hadou god will instantly regardless of intent paint over the setting

The throne is above the singularity regardless of expansions doe. I mean its the only thing that stands before a god and just flattening creation as a whole. Any god with taiji will be above both the throne and singularity and I'm really question where the hell is the idea Hajun's singularity shrank?


I feel like we are forgetting how much the gods are like comparing to creation. You are fine with the singularity being part of the painting the gods have and there is the fact that the god's spiritual mass needed a catalyst to not break creation as a whole. Singularity can expand regardless but its not even going to be noticed by a god's who's weight is far above anything creation could handle hence the throne.

神とは森羅万象そのものであり、すなわち宇宙という生命体。

Its also the fact that everything in creation is a part of their body.

The argument i'm seeing here has to ignore the fact how the gods operate with the setting + ignoring how the gudous just go through Hajun's singularity without trouble.
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My reply to all this :
Nepuko said:
That's the thing, to clarify - you guys actually agree on most. Gods can no-sell unamped Singularity any moment and any time they wish. They paint the world? Yes. They lolnope base Singularity? Also yes.

Is that enough for High 1-A? No.

That's it really. This is still going on for one reason - the defendants don't seem to properly understand what it takes to reach High 1-A. Will the downgrade remove the fact that the Gods still are beyond unamped Singularity? No, why would it.

Will it somehow negate the fact that Hadou Gods passively Law hax and paint over creation? No, again why would it.

The only thing here is that as it currently stands, and with what is currently presented, the most important reason for High 1-A no longer holds. It would not remove the superiority they have, but it's simply no longer one of such a high level that would warrant High 1-A. Most of the defendant's posts are arguing about something that not only would not change if the downgrade goes through, but the OP even agrees on it from what I see.

Take for example a High 1-B character. What's happening here in the opposition is that they say this X character massively curbstomps this High 1-B character, to the extent that in some ways this High 1-B character could even be considered part of him, hence he is 1-A.

This is exactly the case with Shinza right now, just replace the High 1-B character by Singularity, and Character X by Gods.

Is this enough for 1-A? No. Does this change the fact that Character X is massively beyond the High 1-B character? Also no.

The actual core "issue" is the High 1-A tier. The OP understands what it takes to reach such tier. The defendants don't seem to do so. It is not like their arguments, scans are ignored - they are not, they are even agreed with most of the time, but it's simply not enough for such a high tier, and more often than not actually helps the OP in his point.


It's simple. Their superiority still holds true. But the justification no longer is enough for such a higher tier as High 1-A, as we can't upgrade it willy-nilly like that based on such a reason.
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As for me and Redgrave, sure if I manage to work out some time for that. But I honestly believe it's somewhat unneeded, as as mentioned before, I don't even disagree with the scans and what he portrays Shinza as, mostly. The ongoing debate he has with Darksmash is more about the sketchiness of Singularity's tiering, which makes 1-A+ a very unstable tier. As for the Singularity, he also seems to agree with its, well, canonical description in his comments with Darksmash. Said canonical reason rendering the analogy null, and hence yeeting High 1-A.

Because of this, I feel like our subsequents convos would be :

Defendants : Gods are this strong and this strong

Me : Yes and yes, all are true. But it's not enough to reach High 1-A.
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Because the fundamental issue in their side, and dare I say the only issue that makes them still argue in favor, is not understanding what makes High 1-A. That tier is simply impossible as it currently stands.


What should be argued is the Singularity rating. Since it seems sketchy and suffers the same tiering confusion, but to a lesser extent.


TL;DR of my ramblings and the current situation :

High 1-A : Doesn't hold because Gods don't completely transcend Singularity with R>F above any extension as previously misportrayed. They are massively beyond it, but the R>F statement not holding any longer, the tier has to go.

1-A+ : Very unstable because what is the baseline SIngularity size? And the Gods "fall endlessly into it" scan was because of the Throne God amp, from the defendant's own words.

The only argument that can still be done imo from the opposing side is that Taikyoku difference is infinite. High 1-A is kaput, 1-A+ is very debatable.

But the latter can always be done in another thread. First High 1-A.
 
Yea, However as I explained if that is the case then the argument that "Yato wasn't able to cross" cannot be used to prove unamped singularity expansions are transcendent in size. Which will again take away the High 1-A.
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I mean we have the fact that Yakou as he dived compared merc's singularity to being able to reach the "bottom" at the time it takes to hold ones breath. Hajuns? He literally couldn't tell where the bottom was. The blog even says: Hajun's singularity was just unfathomably deeper than Mercurius'.

アレが存在している座はそれほど深く、過去存在したあらゆる旧世界を遥か凌駕すると龍明は言う。

Also explained a bit by Yakou that the throne is so deep it surpasses the ones from the old world when he was told by ryuumei (basically KKK eleonore).

That's very vague extrapolation and something I am not seeing tbh. For a given Era ofc it's 100% true, but can you really say for example the throne in Mithra's Era(Which encompassed a single universe afaik) is above the singularity in Hajun's era? Given that the throne rises in accordance with the ruling god, even going as far as to say depth of the throne= strength of the god.
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I don't see its vagueness in this and we know with the expansions it gets one has to be "deeper".

魂を同調させ、より深く、より強大な存在へと自らの存在を誘導し、奥へ奥へと自らを運ぶ。

Yakou notes he had to make his own existence to a deeper and mightier existence, and carries itself deeper and deeper. The singularity being infinite that keeps expanding so there is that. (I also think the line i gave isn't that far into the story. I believe its before God Yakou which seems to be consistent with how the page). Right around here with Mukei which seems to also add he reached the throne so there is that:

Also I have no idea whether it shrunk or not. I am just providing possible explanations with the limited KKK info I know, and explaining why each possibility does not give High 1-A.
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I get you are arguing for smth but this is a big no cuz again Hajun's singularity doesn't get smaller. Just want to make this clear.

Note laptop is janky so rip my responses anyway (kept resetting like merc's law smfh)
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
I mean we have the fact that Yakou as he dived compared merc's singularity to being able to reach the "bottom" at the time it takes to hold ones breath. Hajuns? He literally couldn't tell where the bottom was. The blog even says: Hajun's singularity was just unfathomably deeper than Mercurius'.
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TISSG7Redgrave said:
Also explained a bit by Yakou that the throne is so deep it surpasses the ones from the old world when he was told by ryuumei (basically KKK eleonore).
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TISSG7Redgrave said:
Yakou notes he had to make his own existence to a deeper and mightier existence, and carries itself deeper and deeper. The singularity being infinite that keeps expanding so there is that. (I also think the line i gave isn't that far into the story. I believe its before God Yakou which seems to be consistent with how the page). Right around here with Mukei which seems to also add he reached the throne so there is that:
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TISSG7Redgrave said:
I get you are arguing for smth but this is a big no cuz again Hajun's singularity doesn't get smaller. Just want to make this clear.
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Yes all that is fine. However, it is all just a very big amount into 1-A, and not High 1-A.
here is what I think will work
Unamped Hajun's singularity: Unknown layers into 1-A(The one that the Gudou Gods crossed easily)(Much deeper than Mercurius's Unamped singularity)
Amped Hajun's singularity: Ever increasing amount of 1-A (Scales to Hajun's level, The one that Yato faced and had to endlessly fall through because of direct involvement of the throne god)
 
I still think that Nepuko seems to make good sense here.

Anyway, given that this is an important revision, I think that it seems warranted to ask our senior staff members to help out with evaluations.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245

Would you be willing to attempt to evaluate this discussion please? I think that reading the posts of Nepuko and TISSG7Redgrave should likely be enough to get some understanding of the situation.
 
Thank you for the evaluation.
 
Thank you for helping out Qawsedf.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Anyway, no, the following are our official explanation pages for the verse as far as I am aware:

Shinza Banshou

Shinza Banshou Explanation Page

Shinza Banshō Gods Physiology
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I believe that in regards to High 1-A, only the line I pointed above
As a God with colored Taikyoku, they are incomprehensibly transcendent to those who do not reach the same level as them, akin to an artist drawing a pictureupon a canvas. Even such things like the Singularity (which only as Gods are they capable of painting it, and the rest of creation, in their color)
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really needs rewording. For the rest of the changes, if there are any, they're probably more about the relation between Throne and Singularity. I believe Darsmash and Redgrave are almost finished in that regard, if not already(feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this, Smash and Red).
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. Thank you for your evaluation.
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Glad to help. Going to hit the bed soon.

But before that, to bring something else to the thread than simply rebuttals. The actual tiers the involved cases here will have after this. A small summary of what he have currently :

-R>F analogy in regards to Singularity - the sole reason for High 1-A - no longer holds. This is certain.

-What I gathered from the rest and knowledgeable members : The depth of the "unamped" Singularity is when there is no Throne God, but when it's being "amped" by the Throne God the Singularity scales to their level of existence and it's high enough to never be crossed by the challenger(Hajun with his ever increasing Taikyoku was said to have a "much deeper" singularity than Mercurius but overall pretty vague).

-Taikyoku difference seems to be infinite from what I personally understood, so if there was such a claim I agree with it. As for wether each Taiji difference is a layer into 1-A and is the system all over again? Unknown from what I seen. I suppose it remains to be clarified. I personally hope it's the case, else....

So, the most compromisable explanation seems that Taiji users are beyond all "unamped expansions of Singularity"- after all, even Gudou Gods could pierce through Hajun's after he got nerfed/stopped amping it. Which is ('is' being "beyond unamped expansions") pretty vague about the size difference between them, so it would be arbitrarily high into 1-A. How far exactly, who knows.

With all this in mind, the big lines for tiers about Singularity and the Gods from Redgrave and Darksmash's posts would be roughly :


-Singularity : Varies(?), 1-A (Corresponds to "Colourless" Taiji, 0 Taikyoku value. The default size of the Singularity varies.)

-Gods : 1-A (Beyond any default Singularity, each Taikyoku level difference is infinite(?))


How high exactly into 1-A? Would depend on the Taiji system workings. I myself believe that a Taikyoku difference is infinite at least from Infera's posts, but does it qualify for higher 1-A layers (I'd ask the defendant side to add more context to help this)?

If yes, and the same applies to Singularity "depth", then even 1 Taiji God is arbitrarily high into 1-A layers (depends on the highest end shown I suppose), with someone like Hajun being ever-increasing into 1-A layers. I like to think this is the case, but I guess this'll have to be verified....

If no... then this all would likely be in baseline 1-A, but ridiculously high in it. Maybe 1 layer above at best.


That should be roughly the summary of the results. More in-depth discussions about which one is the case can always be done after first removing High 1-A imo, I suppose.


Hope that was clear, and have a nice day everyone. Good night.


EDIT : Edited some wording that caused confusion and a debate
 
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Just to complement Infera´s points anyway.


Singularity itself is treated as an expansion of colorless taiji(The degree that is currently accepted is that it´s size is infinite), so the gods themselves would have to paint it to have such a thing in their domain.(Adressed by the other people on this thread regardless)

It´s own description says that, a colorless space that the gods paint and make it´s domain to increase depths, Hajun's case is closely related to this.

The main question I think is by how many extensions this ''depth'' increases, plus there is an actual justification for that.


The important thing to remember is that the Singularity is originated directly through the shock wave of the states of Atziluth, which is correlated to Hadou Taikyoku that allow the gods to paint their own creation as their will and to emanate their laws and concepts.(Which was adressed by Redgrave´s points which I actually have to congrulate him for this).

Anyway, I don´t have anything to adress more than this.
 
About the difference in each Taiyoku is infinite, I'd like to see the scan :thonk:

Edit: Because if the difference is real, Hajun would have bodied infinite Habaki, I see no chance for the dude to counter Hajun; and Yato would have smacked infinite Habaki into obliviion, I see no chance for the dude to get Zaranibba's head at all.

Edit 2: Or Yakou stomp Ootake.
 
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Sera_EX said:
The downplay is heartbreaking, and I don’t care who it’s coming from.
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It is always sad to see, more than wank even, but thankfully the current situation is past that stage and seems to have taken into account what needed to be taken into account, from what everyone can see. It clearly included and info from SleepyTBubble, TSSG7Redgrave, etc.
The current summary of the situation isn't downplay, so you don't have to feel heartbroken.
 
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Sera_EX said:
The downplay is heartbreaking, and I don’t care who it’s coming from.
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So refute the "downplay" by proving that the gods transcend infinite base line 1-A. So prove the characters are infinite base line and that they transcend the that character.
 
Sage_Extermination said:
It is always sad to see, more than wank even, but thankfully the current situation is past that stage and seems to have taken into account what needed to be taken into account, from what everyone can see. It clearly included and info from SleepyTBubble, TSSG7Redgrave, etc.
The current summary of the situation isn't downplay, so you don't have to feel heartbroken.
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Wank is worse since it's a clear case of misconception/poor understanding of the verse, meanwhile downgrade could swing both way.
 
Kaizuka_Satomi said:
Because if the difference is real, Hajun would have bodied infinite Habaki, I see no chance for the dude to counter Hajun; and Yato would have smacked infinite Habaki into obliviion, I see no chance for the dude to get Zaranibba's head at all.

Edit 2: Or Yakou stomp Ootake.
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Habaki is the tumor's sensory aka the one that makes Hajun's power go up the roof without any stoppage. And the context is that he TOOK the tumor out of Hajun + getting him off the throne + breaking his law with moskha from the kyogetsu siblings iirc. So Hajun didn't have his power boost cheat and just became a regular hadou. What is this statement?

Yakou and Ootake were likely in the same level considering it was an even match. If not Ootake wouldn't have been able to even do anything to Yakou. That's how a fight with taiji works unless you're tell me thats NOT how it works.
Darksmash said:
Unamped Hajun's singularity: Unknown layers into 1-A(The one that the Gudou Gods crossed easily)(Much deeper than Mercurius's Unamped singularity)
Amped Hajun's singularity: Ever increasing amount of 1-A (Scales to Hajun's level, The one that Yato faced and had to endlessly fall through because of direct involvement of the throne god
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Ok what's with the unamped versions and such for Hajun? There is no unamped or amped. Its just Hajun's singularity which is literally the same level for the entire game and such. Yato was FORCED to face it because of his nature as a hadou. Like srsly everyone needs to stop saying unamped as such as if the singularity has an off and on button. It expands with the godhead yes so its depths become immesurably deeper with their strenght. The misconception here is that no god can pass this singularity is false regardless. Gudous past Hajun's which again Yakou notes on the size and its isn't "unamped" or whatever that term is. Yato can cross this due to having taiji (anyone with taiji can reach it hell my little showing is Yakou DID cross it with a far smaller taiji (mukei has a taiji 2 at the start of the game). Hell taiji is why its easy to get through and reach the throne as well not giving any problems with breaking it. Problem is for hadous is their nature is FORCED to clash with the godhead no matter what hence if its weaker they can't make it (because they wouldn't be able to win regardless as they have to fight practically the entire universe (god)). And just to clarify i mean is all of the setting is part of the gods body.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
Yakou and Ootake were likely in the same level considering it was an even match. If not Ootake wouldn't have been able to even do anything to Yakou. That's how a fight with taiji works unless you're tell me thats NOT how it works.
Click to expand...
In that fight Yakou implied that he has higher Taiyoku and rely on it to overwrite Ootake, yet still nuked into oblivion when Ootake remove the helm. I don't see them as a match.

Oh yeah, did a little dip in you lots's wiki of Yakou, then it's a 0 Taiyoku vs 50 Taiyoku? Match my ass.

Edit: and where's the scan?
 
Kaizuka_Satomi said:
In that fight Yakou implied that he has higher Taiyoku and rely on it to overwrite Ootake, yet still nuked into oblivion when Ootake remove the helm. I don't see them as a match.

Oh yeah, did a little dip in you lots's wiki of Yakou, then it's a 0 Taiyoku vs 50 Taiyoku? Match my ass.
Click to expand...
You are the one claiming he has higher taiji not me and that would fundementally be different from a fight against a god

0? The hell? Mukei has 2? His peak is 65 but at that point they just match each other.

逆に言えば、同じ土俵に上がる以外で相手の法は一切揺るがない。この場合、地力の差に加え、相手に有利な法を一方的に押しつけられている状態なので、勝利することはほぼ不可能であり、相手の法によっては完全に詰む。ただし自身の太極による自滅やなんらかの理由で存在強度が崩れ始めている場合は例外。

A law cannot be shaken unless its on the same playing field as the stronger one would crush the weaker one but only very specific factors can turn the tables (own taiji self-destruction or for some reason collapse)

Edit:
太極戦闘は各々が持つルールを相殺し合い、より「強大な」ルールが「弱い」ルールを塗り潰し駆逐する事で決着となる。ルールの内容は無効化されない事で初めて意味が出てくるので二の次。
つまるところ、太極同士の戦闘で何よりも重要になるのは自己のルールを押し付けられるだけの太極の格であり、大なり小なり自分のルールを押し付けられる程度の力の拮抗があって始めてルールの内容が問題となる。

Taiji's main focus is the strong devour the weaker law and regardless of what kind of law it is matters little. It only matters if the taiji ranks are the same otherwise its meaningless

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Also slight correction hajun was still at the throne but they had to fight the shades to get to him but my point is Habaki was the main factor as he is the tumor's sensory so it didn't contradict what a taiji battle is.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
You are the one claiming he has higher taiji not me and that would fundementally be different from a fight against a god

0? The hell? Mukei has 2? His peak is 65 but at that point they just match each other.

逆に言えば、同じ土俵に上がる以外で相手の法は一切揺るがない。この場合、地力の差に加え、相手に有利な法を一方的に押しつけられている状態なので、勝利することはほぼ不可能であり、相手の法によっては完全に詰む。ただし自身の太極による自滅やなんらかの理由で存在強度が崩れ始めている場合は例外。

A law cannot be shaken unless its on the same playing field as the stronger one would crush the weaker one but only very specific factors can turn the tables (own taiji self-destruction or for some reason collapse)

Edit:
太極戦闘は各々が持つルールを相殺し合い、より「強大な」ルールが「弱い」ルールを塗り潰し駆逐する事で決着となる。ルールの内容は無効化されない事で初めて意味が出てくるので二の次。
つまるところ、太極同士の戦闘で何よりも重要になるのは自己のルールを押し付けられるだけの太極の格であり、大なり小なり自分のルールを押し付けられる程度の力の拮抗があって始めてルールの内容が問題となる。

Taiji's main focus is the strong devour the weaker law and regardless of what kind of law it is matters little. It only matters if the taiji ranks are the same otherwise its meaningless

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Also slight correction hajun was still at the throne but they had to fight the shades to get to him but my point is Habaki was the main factor as he is the tumor's sensory so it didn't contradict what a taiji battle is.
Click to expand...
I need scan implying they or you just guessing that they match. Heck, I need scan that gap between Taiyoku level is infinite in the first place, but you only bring out my examples seemingly to dodge the first question? Madness.
 
Kaizuka_Satomi said:
I need scan implying they or you just guessing that they match. Heck, I need scan that gap between Taiyoku level is infinite in the first place, but you only bring out my examples seemingly to dodge the first question? Madness.
Click to expand...
Um I'm not? I'm literally telling you how a taiji battle works. It literally says: Same taiji = can affect. Have no taiji that matches nothing works. Attributes are SECONDARY. Ren affects merc and rein do we need smth like a "oh they have this value" when we know that's how a taiji fight works??? Again you have to ignore the fact how a taiji battle works to make a ludicurous claim like: Yakou should have stomped but he didn't. THat was from atwiki btw which tends to have the best info on this. We also know merc was stronger than marie route ren and rein with how they won't reach merc himself. Its in english btw where merc said they will fall endlessly its pretty clear cut they can't reach him due to not having the same rank.

edit:

それは資格がなければ天地が引っくり返っても不可能なこと。曰く太極……と言うんだったか。細かいことは分からんが、要は同じ土俵に上がらないと何も通用しないはずなのだ。 　

Without the qualifications even if heaven and earth were turned upside down it won't work. Taiji was it? I don't know the details but unless you are on the same playing field as him nothing will work.
 
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Yes, stronger Taiyoku devour weaker Taiyoku. That is a Taiji battle. That is what happening in the battle, 65 Taiyoku Yakou overwritinh 50 Taiyoku Ootake (both have no concept of death, but Yakou has higher number so he rely on that to overwrite Ootake). Still miss the point?

Yakou: どれほど強大であろうと御身の太極、無限ではあるまい
Yakou: No matter how strong it is, your Taikyoku is not infinite.

Yakou: 原則、色は一つのみ。両立するなど出来ぬのだ。通常ならば優性が劣性を塗り潰すのだが……我らは同色。ゆえ成り立たぬ
Yakou: Everyone has their own color. And so they are not able to coexist. Generally, the stronger one repaints over the weaker one. But we… we are of the same color. And so…

Yakou knows Ootake's Taiyoku is numbered, and the rascal know the general rule of a Taiji battle, so he relies on that rule to face Ootake head-on. The result? Ootake nulled that rule comepletely by removing his helmet and nuke Yakou with oblivion.

That is the reason I found issue with the whole "gap between each Taiyoku level is infinity" because the gap of Yakou and Ootake is 65 - 50 = 15 levels of infinity.

And nope, Yakou is the one overwriting Ootake, you cannot say they match.

One more. Hajun's original craving is "I want to be alone" which is Gudou type. Because of Tumor it became "I want to be the only one in this world" which is Hadou type. Removing the Tumor make Hajun Gudou, not Hadou.

Plus, Habaki's only role in the final battle is to counter Messujin Messou because he is the Tumor and thus js Hajun's power source, there's no mention about Habaki receiving power-up in that fight, ever. Hajun's actual power surpass Habaki, the reason Habaki even win is that a crack exists on Tengu Dou.

FYI, the reason rest of his team has to clear out the shadows of previous headgod is, those shadows are the armor blocking Habaki from countering Messujin Messou in the first place, as his existence is tied to Hajun and Hajun alone thus unable to do anything to those shadows (as they are totally unrelated to each other).

Edit:

Saying Yato could not reach Hajun

Meanwhile Yato: 感じるぞ、座は近い。もうすぐ底に到達する

Edit 2:

「あいつはもともと、覇道の質なんかじゃなかったんだから」
Originally he (Hajun in context) is not Hadou.

Yep Hajun without Tumor is Gudou.
 
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TISSG7Redgrave said:
Problem is for hadous is their nature is FORCED to clash with the godhead no matter what hence if its weaker they can't make it (because they wouldn't be able to win regardless as they have to fight practically the entire universe (god)). And just to clarify i mean is all of the setting is part of the gods body.
Click to expand...
All right, so in that case I take it they are not facing the Singularity itself, but rather the throne god themselves

The problem is, the conclusion it is "immeasurably deeper" for each God came from the assumption that the challenger cannot cross because of size itself, which as you also agree was not because of the size of the Singularity itself,but rather because of facing the throne god.
In which case the Singularity is pretty much just baseline 1-A, including all it's expansions
 
Higher number? Again u are assuming this. If you know taiji battles work then you really should know they are in the same field. And i have mentioned that same taiji won't always be even steven? Cuz ren WAS losing even though we know his law was affecting merc and rein he was about to get bombarded. Yakou knows he ain't no Hajun so what's the point here? THey match because they can still hurt each other as they hit each other with their taiji and they just came back all willy milly. The 65 is the end game. This is just yakou getting his taiji so why assume its far bigger with what we know on how taiji works.

The shades are weaker than the OGs and have nothing to do with hajun other than how he is extremely incompatible with them.

Plus, Habaki's only role in the final battle is to counter Messujin Messou because he is the Tumor and thus js Hajun's power source, there's no mention about Habaki receiving power-up in that fight, ever. Hajun's actual power surpass Habaki, the reason Habaki even win is that a crack exists on Tengu Dou.
Click to expand...

唯我という渇望。己以外を見もしないゆえに己の強度を無限に上げられる波旬。 だがそうした彼になれたのは、覇吐という威崎形嚢腫を極限に意識したからこそなのだ。この矛盾が根となり、波旬は覇吐と対するときだけ並の覇道神という型に旅る。もちろんそれだけでも強力なのは確かだが、手持ちの魂たちを片端から消さずにおれないという性質が、ここでは当たり前に弱点と化す。

in front of Habaki he is just a normal hadou and last i checked tumor syphons the throne's power to live too but again that's the point is that Habaki is a counter to Hajun that's why it worked. If it was the other gudous this would not have worked.


Darksmash said:
All right, so in that case I take it they are not facing the Singularity itself, but rather the throne god themselves

The problem is, the conclusion it is "immeasurably deeper" for each God came from the assumption that the challenger cannot cross because of size itself, which as you also agree was not because of the size of the Singularity itself,but rather because of facing the throne god.
In which case the Singularity is pretty much just baseline 1-A, including all it's expansions
Click to expand...
It is immesurably deeper because Yakou comments on the singularity being infinite and with the god's has expanded to be immesurably deeper. The size of the singularity is irrelevant to a god after all as I kept saying even after all that immesurably deeper stuff.

Last I checked Yato's singularity wasn't fully opened yet with the opening of the world not completed until shiori vs Mibu happened which did pave the way to the throne. Because the narration DID say slightly prior to this that:

何百年、何千年、いやもしかしたら、それ以上かけても辿り着けない超深奥に坐するモノ。曲がりなりにも神格に対して不適切だが、怪物と言うしかないかもしれない。
Click to expand...

It is a thing that sits in the very depths that cannot be reached even if it takes hundreds or thousands of years, maybe even more.

But i feel like there was an idea in K3 VFB

Q: 新生した夜刀はわずかでも波旬に勝つ可能性はあったのですか?

A: 直接戦って勝つ可能性はゼロ。だけど、形振り構わず手段を選らばずいけば波旬を殺せる可能性はありました。

蝦夷決戦であのまま全員巻き込んで波旬のもとに殴りこみ、覇吐を盾や武器に使いながら漁夫の利を狙うように立ち回ればいい。

実際、最終手段として彼はそれも考えていましたよ。覇吐らがほんくらでどうしようもないと判断すればやっていたでしょう。

「おまえたちが第六天の支配を超えられないなら、俺がすべてを地獄に変えても波旬を倒す」一一と、自ら言っている通りです。

Q: Does a newly born Yato have the slightest chance to beat Hajun?

A: Not in a direct fight unless he is willing to do does whatever he takes. He could use the people in the battle of ezo and use them to attack Hajun. Habaki would be used as a shield and weapon against him. In truth that is a last resort he's willing to go to if he judged he cannot do anything.

So it seemed he was going to do something like that. And iirc there was an idea to absorb all the souls Hajun was forced to have and gain a boost however how would that help is unclear anyway.

It just seems like he was trying to use the gudous to get in by opening it fully but it wasn't done until shiori vs mibu happened.
 
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