Shinza Banshou downgrade

[Nepuko]

Well, I was just concerned about that we rushed into things insufficiently informed, but it seems like there are valid reasons for a likely downgrade.

We still need to properly adjust our three official explanations pages in conjunction though.

For what I believe is the main meat of the thread, i.e the High 1-A removal, there is but a single line that needs to be reworded. So that would be easy enough.

The rest will likely need to wait for the conclusion of their exact tier into 1-A and hence the Taiji values, which some here - including a supporter - believe it's best to perhaps leave for another thread, or after the High 1-A removal is clear.

So in the near-future only 1 line will need to be reworded, as the 3 blogs in my knowledge have no section for High 1-A for example, as Umineko does in blogs.

But no worries, the pages won't be forgotten. You've made sure of that XD.

 

[Lapsad]

As long as the other H1A verses are looked at as well (As plenty of them, not all, seem pretty suspicious) ill have no issue.

I would like to ask , can you put an example what verse that?.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Its just we are 5 pages deep so jumping down yet another rabbit hole for Shinza tiering just seems like it would be a better idea for a new thread specifically about it.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

As long as the other H1A verses are looked at as well (As plenty of them, not all, seem pretty suspicious) ill have no issue.

if u mean unwritten yea.

 

[Planck69]

I can't really think of any verse with a cosmology as weird as Shinza honestly. DC Comics has an issue and Unwritten with it's High 1-A but that's about it.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I would like to ask , can you put an example what verse that?.

Well theres DC (Which was already discussed a bit) and imo The Unwritten I can think of a couple people who have been reading through that question its tier, now before anyone gets mad im not saying they are wrong just I think they should at least be looked into.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Well, I was just concerned about that we rushed into things insufficiently informed, but it seems like there are valid reasons for a likely downgrade.

We still need to properly adjust our three official explanations pages in conjunction though.

There's gonna come a time where the explanation pages will get their adjustments...

Well mines needs a whole lot since I have to rework everything including the text structures because the wikia movement to forum messed it all up.

Can't say again when I'll do it because my attention is somewhere else, and even if I do start it now (yeah...), I'd most likely have to start doing translations of them on blogs given this sites current new standards for any non English translated works...

Whether or not that truly would change everything here is not my concern. I just explain stuff and what they are, not assign them a tier or whatever unless I know what I can say to classify it.

 

[Nepuko]

I don't wanna be that guy but please let's not derail guys, especially since it makes the relevant latest arguments go further up the page.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I can't really think of any verse with a cosmology as weird as Shinza honestly. DC Comics has an issue and Unwritten with it's High 1-A but that's about it.

TES’ cosmology is pretty weird but its just thankfully in english but I wont and am not even gonna suggest touching that.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I don't wanna be that guy but please let's not derail guys, especially since it makes the relevant latest arguments go further up the page.

Yes we can stop that talk now, it can be discussed else where.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Theres def gonna be some spite matches made due to this

 

[Antvasima]

Well, The Unwritten legitimately seems to be High 1-A, but not as far into it as currently, but I haven't noticed any major problems with our other current high-tiered verses, with the exception of DC Comics, and maybe maybe Twin Peaks.

Let's return to the main topic here though.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I just want to double check smth cuz i honestly have no idea if there is smth im 100% missing. Because Yakou had to dive in and become a higher and deeper existence what would this entail? Don't normally becoming a higher existence means u transcend smth normally unless i'm missing smth?

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to help out here by talking with TISSG7Redgrave about the scaling please?

 

[Nepuko]

I just want to double check smth cuz i honestly have no idea if there is smth im 100% missing. Because Yakou had to dive in and become a higher and deeper existence what would this entail? Don't normally becoming a higher existence means u transcend smth normally unless i'm missing smth?

Existence is one's objective state of being, so just using the world like that, we could say John Cena is at a higher state of existence than a frail old, senile man. So, it would depend on the context behind "higher" and "deeper", as well as the involved tier.
What I mean by the latter is, for example from what I believe, statements/feats such as "he is beyond/transcending X infinite multiversal tier" can make you reach Low 1-C. But in 1-A hierarchy, every layer is the whole system over, so it might not be enough there, for example. Etc.

But if the context behind this is him becoming a Singularity, then what it is meaning in this case is clear as Singularity is currently in 1-A. So it would mean he shot up to 1-A if it is this case, I suppose. In which case yes, he became a higher existence in this context.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I just want to double check smth cuz i honestly have no idea if there is smth im 100% missing. Because Yakou had to dive in and become a higher and deeper existence what would this entail? Don't normally becoming a higher existence means u transcend smth normally unless i'm missing smth?

Right I forgot about Yakous thing where he increases his whole ability to raise his existence.

“ 無形 (Mukei): As someone who has already reached the Throne which rules all of creation, Yakou gained his "Colorless" Taikyoku. It allows him to do anything that falls under the physical phenomena of the universe and it is different from the ability to warp the laws of the world. Seat of the universe in the center of infinite Swatiskas, Yakou's hierarchy and nothing more than his point of view. Forever existing in this place, incapable of getting out of it due to his nature as a Singularity. Just like how ants fail to understand humans existence, humans are incapable of fully grasping phenomenon that is Yakou. As such, he picks the existence of beings he wants to interact with, and aligns their hierarchy to his, it's basically sharing his own point of view with someone. Geometric space incapable of being comprehended unless one has reached godhood.”

It has various scans within it.

 

[Sera_EX]

So refute the "downplay" by proving that the gods transcend infinite base line 1-A. So prove the characters are infinite base line and that they transcend the that character.

Can't refute anything with arbitrary standards. You're telling me to prove the gods transcend baseline 1-A (baseline 1-A is like...1 Taiji though) yet according to others transcending baseline 1-A isn't High 1-A. Also don't jump the gun, the downplay I speak of isn't even from the OP or related arguments but everything else that is wholly irrelevant to the singularity yet keeps getting brought up.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

What?

You need to prove that they transcend to the extent a 1-A does a lower tiered character. That's not arbitrary, that's how the wiki assings tiers.

And yes, transcending a 1-A the way a 1-A transcends a 10-B is not High 1-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I personally think that High 1-A and Tier 0 as they are are super wonky in general.

And also incredibly chuuni and embarrassing.

By that, I mean their current descriptions are so absurd that not even the profiles that use them actually qualify and its just the result of people trying to be very try-hard imagining "The strongest possible thing".

The distinction between 1-A+ and High 1-A is not clear at all. High 1-A and Tier 0 even less so.

 

[Sera_EX]

I don't like High 1-A either but I'm not getting into that mess.

 

[PsychoWarper]

It definitely seems wonky but maybe im just salty lol.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

To my understanding it goes:

Baseline 1-A sees a High 1-B and an 11-C* as equal, and a 2nd layer sees a baseline 1-A equal to 11-C. And 3rd layer is same for 2nd layer, ad infinitum.

Then, seeing infinite layered 1-A as = to 11-C* is High 1-A.


I don't care for it, it is immensely chuuni, but it's how it goes right now I'm pretty sure.

*I hear it's 10-A, not 11-C, but still. It ain't much better.

 

[ZERO7772]

Since it's brought up, I also don't like High 1-A tier as a whole myself.

It kind goes against what 1-A is supposed to represent just for the sake of being "even stronger" type of deal, which is like everyone said is chuuni as hell.

 

[QuasiYuri]

To my understanding it goes:

Baseline 1-A sees a High 1-B and an 11-C as equal, and a 2nd layer sees a baseline 1-A equal to 11-C. And 3rd layer is same for 2nd layer, ad infinitum.

Then, seeing infinite layered 1-A as = to 11-C is High 1-A.


I don't care for it, it is immensely chuuni, but it's how it goes right now I'm pretty sure.

It technically would be just higher 1-A+, since it doesn't prove unreachableness. Tho its application sure is iffy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Baseline 1-A sees a High 1-B and an 11-C as equal, and a 2nd layer sees a baseline 1-A equal to 11-C. And 3rd layer is same for 2nd layer, ad infinitum.

this is literally not the case. The fact that this is so easily dispersed is the result of people making 1-A matchup threads and inventing justifications so they can pass around their 1-As as more badass than others.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

IMO:

1-A should be everything from baseline Outerversal to "infinite levels above baseline". Maybe High 1-A could be used for characters above infinite-degrees baseline and whatever if you want a distinction much like High 1-B is just the top of 1-B.

Current High 1-A and 0 should just become a single tier and be reserved for Supreme Being characters who transcend absolutely everyone and their moms and need 10000 word blogs explaining Kaballah or Aleister Crowley or Taoism to justify their Tier.

 

[Nepuko]

this is literally not the case. The fact that this is so easily dispersed is the result of people making 1-A matchup threads and inventing justifications so they can pass around their 1-As as more badass than others.

It is somewhat the case the case though, Matt. 10-B not 11-C granted in the FAQ, but still.

Link : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ

Q: Is transcending an 1-A character to the same degree they transcend normal humans High 1-A?

A: No. Due to making use of a much larger measuring stick in comparision to lower tiers (Power sets of infinite sets, as opposed to adding individual dimensions), the gap between any two levels in 1-A actually exceeds the entire system below them, and is equivalent to repeating the whole process which led to the previous level on a much higher scale. Thus, most statements that make use of such comparisions would only amount to one further level into the tier, unless some additional context showing it to be higher is present.



But I do not think this is the right moment to discuss Tier Revisions, I believe. We can always leave that for another mess of a thread if needed.

Edit : fixed broken link

 

[QuasiYuri]

IMO:

Current High 1-A and 0 should just become a single tier and be reserved for Supreme Being characters who transcend absolutely everyone and their moms and need 10000 word blogs explaining Kaballah or Aleister Crowley or Taoism to justify their Tier.

First part seems interresting, but this one is an even bigger door to NLF as I see it.

 

[Planck69]

May I suggest that we actually finish this thread before talking about the validity of High 1-A and 0 as tiers? "Chuuni" as they may be, they're what they are currently.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It is somewhat the case the case though, Matt. 10-B not 11-C granted in the FAQ, but still.

Link : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ

Q: Is transcending an 1-A character to the same degree they transcend normal humans High 1-A?

A: No. Due to making use of a much larger measuring stick in comparision to lower tiers (Power sets of infinite sets, as opposed to adding individual dimensions), the gap between any two levels in 1-A actually exceeds the entire system below them, and is equivalent to repeating the whole process which led to the previous level on a much higher scale. Thus, most statements that make use of such comparisions would only amount to one further level into the tier, unless some additional context showing it to be higher is present.

This proves that nobody not even mods like myself read the Tiering System at that level because its just annoying at that point.

 

[ZERO7772]

Jeez does that make Nepuko a saint? Dude be reading every little detail on this for fictional fan-made tiring system.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

First part seems interresting, but this one is an even bigger door to NLF as I see it.

I obviously worded it like that as a joke.

 

[Nepuko]

This proves that nobody not even mods like myself read the Tiering System at that level because its just annoying at that point.

Not sure wether to laugh or cry.

A chinamen joke.

 

[QuasiYuri]

This proves that nobody not even mods like myself read the Tiering System at that level because its just annoying at that point.

Explains why there's nearly nobody on "knowldgeable members list" for the Tiering System tho (there's like, 3 person in it).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

A chinamen joke.

A frog in a well

 

[QuasiYuri]

I obviously worded it like that as a joke.

Ngl I laugh the moment I realized it was one. Feels like these threads with "so you see there's transduality of transduality, then you have...".

 

[Arcker123]

1-A and above just seems like word salad.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

"Well aucthuaully, your transduality is still part of the duality of "dual" and "transdual", while my character is said to not be part of that, and is thus superior and stomps."

Anyways, alright, beyond 1-A is kind of very meh. Still, we can agree that this stuff isn't High 1-A as is currently defined then?

 

[Planck69]

Anyway, I think we're more or less agreed on High 1-A leaving. And based on what Nep said, the blogs need minimal updating. Now to just decide the tiers and update the profiles.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I obviously worded it like that as a joke.

Lmfao this picture makes my day better