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ignoring the timeline argument, how do we tier more than 1 universe existing in a being as ap? keeping in mind they are separate from one another.
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Shaman King CRT (Part 1)
- Thread starter Enigmatic_Rurouni
- Start date
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not all of them, the patch ones. Bambu never refuted that. For example, the world to rutherford is the universe itself, because of the patch clans exposure to aliens, and the knowledge they gained of the universe from that encounter. The entire patch clan is inside the GS right now, as they were all slaughtered on earth. Each one gets a commune per verse mechanics
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re check his posts, he never addresses my patch commentary
He addresses big bangs for some reason, not the argument rutherford would perceive the world as the universe itself. he addresses the timeline argument, In which im not discussing that rn. Im arguing at least a select group of humans would perceive the world as the entire universe, and as such their communes would be that size
He addresses big bangs for some reason, not the argument rutherford would perceive the world as the universe itself. he addresses the timeline argument, In which im not discussing that rn. Im arguing at least a select group of humans would perceive the world as the entire universe, and as such their communes would be that size
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i would like to know the standard for tiering that specific argument
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Human perception is nowhere near great enough to define all of the contents of an entire universe on their own, even with artificial tools, and certainly not in an entirely spiritual environment.
We have no reason to believe that each collection of humans or other sentient beings would need more space than an approximation of their original society to fit inside. It is both irrational and highly improbable.
As such, Bambu is most likely correct.
We have no reason to believe that each collection of humans or other sentient beings would need more space than an approximation of their original society to fit inside. It is both irrational and highly improbable.
As such, Bambu is most likely correct.
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Im sorry, but no. How is a world being literally based on our universe....not in itself a universe? You have provided literally no explanation against this to support your idea that these worlds are less than the scope of universes despite the Occam's razor and just straight up chose to hand waive everything I said.
We use the real world as justification for things based on it as being universes all the time here, nothing about this is any different.
This is straight up proven to not be the case though. My very first set of scans show this.
We are shown that cosmic sizes in these worlds are a thing as the very first world shown has entire stars depicted inside of it. Meaning, in this case, human perception for these worlds include cosmic sizes beyond just earth. AND it is cited as a replica of the real world. Both of these details together are used to prove universal size.
So the point on "no reason to believe each collection of humans would need more space than their original society" is just flat out proven wrong.
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Tools?
shamanking.fandom.com
Below is the scans for the following argument. Rutherford is not talking about merely tools, but also understanding. Each patch member affiliates with the plant room they are assigned in. Rutherford's plant room represents the universe itself, and through rutherford's dialogue we come to see her view of the world is that of being the universe.
Mū
Mū (ムー大陸, Mū Tairiku) is a sunken continent that lies at least 2000 meters below sea level. It is also the place where the final rounds of the Shaman Fights are held, as well as where the Shaman King unites with the Great Spirit. According to an American writer, who had heard it from a Tibetan...
shamanking.fandom.com
Below is the scans for the following argument. Rutherford is not talking about merely tools, but also understanding. Each patch member affiliates with the plant room they are assigned in. Rutherford's plant room represents the universe itself, and through rutherford's dialogue we come to see her view of the world is that of being the universe.
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Rutherford's "world" is not the earth, but rather the full cosmos
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And just incase there's confusion, the scans Cyber posted are to prove Rutherford and the patch have understanding about the universe, so that their communes inside the Great Spirit would have proof being fully replicating the universe as per the verse's mechanics on this.
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See here for our wiki standards:
vsbattles.fandom.com
We cannot just ignore this for this case only, and definitely shouldn't make them less strict. They are there as reliability safeguards
Creation Feats
Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...
vsbattles.fandom.com
We cannot just ignore this for this case only, and definitely shouldn't make them less strict. They are there as reliability safeguards
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Wait, what now? Did you post that in the wrong thread by accident Ant?
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No. These are our standards for that just because stars are shown in the sky, we do not remotely automatically rate a pocket realm as 3-A, Low 2-C, or even 4-A. You are required to comply with them, and not start a thread to change them just because you want to upgrade this particular verse either.
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- There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location.
Communes actual physical locations, not teleportation or illusionary
- There should be some reason to consider the backgrounds stars, not just painted decorations within a throne room or museum.
Hao's commune already disproves celestial bodies in communes being Illusionary
- Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.
Furyoku
Furyoku (巫力, Furyoku , lit. "shamanic power"; English: Mana) is the measure of a shaman's sixth sense, their ability to sense spirits. It is an essential energy for even the most basic shamanic magic as it can be used to materialize spirits. Generally a product of will-power, Furyoku can be...
shamanking.fandom.com
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The point is that it doesn't matter that pocket realities were created. They still have to be thoroughly proven to first have stars that are real and not just illusions to even qualify for 4-A, and then to be proven to be of universal size to each qualify for 3-A or Low 2-C each.
Thoroughly read the page section that I linked to please.
Thoroughly read the page section that I linked to please.
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ant, hao's commune had actual stars, meteors, etc. Its a commune just like the rest. the communes shape to the beliefs of the soul. Someone like rutherford does not believe the universe is fake. She had a complete understanding of it, as shown with the space plant, and the other patch know this as well. Theres going to be some communes with actual celestials bodies, etc in the gs
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real stars in hao's commune. How is that not evidence
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Again, please actually read the page that I linked to above.
Agreed.
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I'm willing to move on but I have yet to get an explanation as to how the creation page feat doesn't work into accordance as to what I've provided
At the very minimum can I get an actual summarization as to how it does not work in concordance with the creation page
At the very minimum can I get an actual summarization as to how it does not work in concordance with the creation page
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I think that I have stated this over and over already, but here is the latest summary:
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What part of "replicating the real world" does not comply with the standards though? This is the main justification for universal size, stars being depicted is supporting details FOR this context.
The main reasons for them being universes is that they are exact replicas of the real world. The real world is a universe. And the point on stars is to support these worlds replicating the cosmic size of the real world.
We aren't claiming Low 2-C just because of stars.
The main reasons for them being universes is that they are exact replicas of the real world. The real world is a universe. And the point on stars is to support these worlds replicating the cosmic size of the real world.
We aren't claiming Low 2-C just because of stars.
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we use this same exact standard for persona 5
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I'm confused as how at least 2 universes doesn't apply?
Haos commune is called a universe, has stars and stated to have galaxies
Rutherford's would follow the same function
Haos commune is called a universe, has stars and stated to have galaxies
Rutherford's would follow the same function
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Is what is referred to just a small part of the all-spirit with separate space-time from other communes within it, or does it share the same time-space?
It also seems very illogical to create a full universe for every few thousand or million Earth people.
It also seems very illogical to create a full universe for every few thousand or million Earth people.
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I’m on my way to work right now so I’ll answer back in a bit, but I have the evidence of the worlds replicating ours.
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All Are separate dimensions which cannot be accessed from each other without dimensional shifting.
And I don't it's ilogical. Otherwise why does hao have a universal commune? Everyone essentially gets their own "heaven or hell", entirely separate dimension shaped and created to their own beliefs. Rutherford's beliefs is that the world is the entire universe. Refer to my post above about that character.
Thus you end up with two universes. I'll wait for kukui's final post
And I don't it's ilogical. Otherwise why does hao have a universal commune? Everyone essentially gets their own "heaven or hell", entirely separate dimension shaped and created to their own beliefs. Rutherford's beliefs is that the world is the entire universe. Refer to my post above about that character.
Thus you end up with two universes. I'll wait for kukui's final post
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Sorry for responding to this late, I was extremely busy yesterday and today, but I am here now.
Now, I want to make sure my point here onward is clear. "These worlds have stars so they should be considered universes" is NOT the main reason why im arguing each world is a Low 2-C universe. Stars being depicted is just supporting context for this (but I'll reiterate more below). The main reason for these worlds being Low 2-C is because these worlds are direct replicas of the real world. And as we all know, our world, the real world, is a universe.
Now, here's the scans from before that prove communes replicate the real world (as Ant requested):
Then we have the Indio Commune. This commune is also directly cited to be very much like Earth.
Another example of communes replicating our world is a commune of hell Lyserg ends up in, where here, it depicts London and also stars.
Notice what Lyserg said specifically also. "These are my memories".
This was shown multiple times here already, but these worlds inside the Great Spirit are formed from the memories and beliefs of the souls residing inside of it.
Therefore, these worlds here wouldn't just simply be identical to our world in appearance. They're worlds that are coming from literal memories and beliefs of all souls. Hell communes like the Indio Commune and Lyserg's hell resembling London come from their memories and beliefs, hence why they mirror our world, are cited to be very similar to our world, and are cited as being our world as well.
"Being earth" or "similar to earth", in the context of this case, doesn't just mean the communes replicate simply planet earth. Following scans will show they replicate our world beyond just earth and replicate the scope of the universe.
I've said and shown this before already, but in the first few scans, the commune Joco and his master were in depicted entire stars being present. This same world that was also cited as being earth inside the Great Spirit earlier.
Lysergs commune of Hell also depicts stars inside of it.
As I said before, "stars being present = Low 2-C" was never the main reason for these worlds being Low 2-C. We know this by itself is not enough. The point on mentioning the depiction of stars is a supporting point. It's to establish that these worlds, which are cited to replicate earth, are not just the size of our planet. With stars being present, the scope of our world beyond just earth are also being replicated, on a cosmic scale. And by replicating our world on a cosmic scale, it gives implication to these worlds being exactly like ours in its totality, the universe.
Now, regarding the rule on stars needing a reason to be real stars, you can see Cyberblader's post here that addresses this specifically. Other than that, a valid reason to consider these stars real falls under the same principle as above. These worlds are cited as being our world, and similar to it. So by that same logic, this should also apply to the stars we see present being the same as stars in our world.
More evidence for the totality of our universe being replicated in these worlds is that there are humans in Shaman King that have full understanding of the universe as well. Not only just humans, but even aliens exist here, beings who have far greater understanding above human comprehension as well. Because communes are formed by memories and beliefs of the souls inside the Great Spirit, whether from humans or aliens, this would give further precedence to the point that communes would replicate the scope of the entire universe, with human and alien understanding of the universe being reflected onto the communes. Cyberblader made a post to specifically prove this as well, so I will link that here to refer to it. This would also be another reason to consider the stars depicted as real, since by understanding the universe, stars and the motions of them are also being understood, and that would be reflected on that of the communes.
On top of this, it's cited in the verse that things far above this are also recorded inside of the Great Spirit too. This includes entire planets and other parts of the universe.
Not to mention, it's already been cited from the beginning that the Great Spirit has even witnessed the birth of the universe as well.
Cyberblader's evidence already proves that humans in Shaman King, such as the Mu Civilization, are able to fully understand the universe. And that beings with much superior comprehension above that, such as aliens, exist in Shaman King as well. And these 3 scans prove the Great Spirit records things much above the both of them.
With entire planets and other aspects of the universe being able to be recorded inside of the Great Spirit, and the Great Spirit itself even watching the creation of the universe, this is more direct evidence of the communes replicating our world on more bigger cosmic scales.
And then, as the strongest evidence for this, we see a universe being outright created inside of a commune. Hao's feat of creating a universe inside the commune of the Shaman King, which we previously accepted already.
The universe containing our earth by the way. As well as entire galaxies as cited by Hao.
By this point, we have seen that stars are depicted inside of the Great Spirit's communes. We have direct confirmation on beings in the Shaman King universe, human beings, aliens, and otherwise, having a fully grasped understanding of the universe and how it works. We have direct citation on the Great Spirit recording things far above both of those things inside of itself, which includes other planets and aspects of the universe. We are given confirmation on the Great Spirit having even witnessed the creation of the universe from the beginning. And the biggest proof of all for this, is us seeing Hao outright creating a universe inside a commune.
Therefore, the worlds inside of the Great Spirit have several evidences to show they don't just replicate our earth. They replicate our universe in it's entirety, can become our universe in size, and should each be considered universes.
For starters, when Yoh and his friends were sent to hell to become the 5 warriors, they each ended up in their own hell communes. These communes are cited as as being different from one another and were separate, splitting everyone up from each other.
Adding to this, Yoh gives implication that souls sent to their own communes may never again meet each other in the Great Spirit, implying traveling across these worlds isn't possible under normal circumstances.
More concrete evidence is here. Hao directly cites that the commune of the Shaman King can't be accessed by anyone under normal circumstances, unless he specifically allows them to.
But the most strongest form of evidence to prove separation amongst the worlds is these scans. Its directly cited that the worlds inside of the Great Spirit cannot be accessed, except by those who have a special power that enables them, or those who are enabled using special cards granted from the Shaman King, to literally shift across dimensions.
And even then, not only is this dimensional shifting given risks, it's also only temporary.
All in all, the worlds inside the Great Spirit are separate from one another, and only those who have special capabilities, or those granted the ability by the Shaman King themselves, are the only exceptions that are capable of traveling across the worlds. Temporarily.
Which should give a strong case of proving the worlds are separate.
At the end of the day, the worlds here inside the Great Spirit should be considered universes, and separate ones, to make them each Low 2-C. And henceforth, putting 2-B on the table.
The souls inside the Great Spirit when dying are not scaling to this. The communes being created isn't a feat for them, as it is just a natural mechanic of being back inside the Great Spirit again. So for anyone who thought we would make all the souls in the verse 2-B or otherwise, that isn't what we're doing or attempting here.
The only ones who would be scaling to this are the Great Spirit, Hao, and the 5 elemental warriors.
The Great Spirit scales because the communes are literally inside of itself as it encompasses all of these worlds, they are part of the Great Spirit.
Hao scaling is self explanatory. He's the Shaman King who has united with the Great Spirit and wields its power.
And the 5 elemental warriors would scale since they wield the 5 High Elemental Spirits, which are parts of the Great Spirit itself and hold aspects of it's power in them each.
NO ONE but the ones named would be scaling to any of this, so do not get this confused please.
Now, I want to make sure my point here onward is clear. "These worlds have stars so they should be considered universes" is NOT the main reason why im arguing each world is a Low 2-C universe. Stars being depicted is just supporting context for this (but I'll reiterate more below). The main reason for these worlds being Low 2-C is because these worlds are direct replicas of the real world. And as we all know, our world, the real world, is a universe.
Now, here's the scans from before that prove communes replicate the real world (as Ant requested):
Communes Replicating The Real World
The very first scan I posted. In one of the hell communes Joco and his master reside in when inside the Great Spirit, this world is directly cited as still being earth.
Then we have the Indio Commune. This commune is also directly cited to be very much like Earth.
Another example of communes replicating our world is a commune of hell Lyserg ends up in, where here, it depicts London and also stars.
Notice what Lyserg said specifically also. "These are my memories".
This was shown multiple times here already, but these worlds inside the Great Spirit are formed from the memories and beliefs of the souls residing inside of it.
Therefore, these worlds here wouldn't just simply be identical to our world in appearance. They're worlds that are coming from literal memories and beliefs of all souls. Hell communes like the Indio Commune and Lyserg's hell resembling London come from their memories and beliefs, hence why they mirror our world, are cited to be very similar to our world, and are cited as being our world as well.
Communes Replicating The Full Size of Our World
Now that we know the communes inside the Great Spirit directly mirror our world, it's time to prove they replicate the full size of our world. In fiction, "world" is a common term used to describe the world in either 2 contexts. "World" either meaning just simply planet earth, or "World" meaning the entire scope of our reality, the universe."Being earth" or "similar to earth", in the context of this case, doesn't just mean the communes replicate simply planet earth. Following scans will show they replicate our world beyond just earth and replicate the scope of the universe.
I've said and shown this before already, but in the first few scans, the commune Joco and his master were in depicted entire stars being present. This same world that was also cited as being earth inside the Great Spirit earlier.
Lysergs commune of Hell also depicts stars inside of it.
As I said before, "stars being present = Low 2-C" was never the main reason for these worlds being Low 2-C. We know this by itself is not enough. The point on mentioning the depiction of stars is a supporting point. It's to establish that these worlds, which are cited to replicate earth, are not just the size of our planet. With stars being present, the scope of our world beyond just earth are also being replicated, on a cosmic scale. And by replicating our world on a cosmic scale, it gives implication to these worlds being exactly like ours in its totality, the universe.
Now, regarding the rule on stars needing a reason to be real stars, you can see Cyberblader's post here that addresses this specifically. Other than that, a valid reason to consider these stars real falls under the same principle as above. These worlds are cited as being our world, and similar to it. So by that same logic, this should also apply to the stars we see present being the same as stars in our world.
More evidence for the totality of our universe being replicated in these worlds is that there are humans in Shaman King that have full understanding of the universe as well. Not only just humans, but even aliens exist here, beings who have far greater understanding above human comprehension as well. Because communes are formed by memories and beliefs of the souls inside the Great Spirit, whether from humans or aliens, this would give further precedence to the point that communes would replicate the scope of the entire universe, with human and alien understanding of the universe being reflected onto the communes. Cyberblader made a post to specifically prove this as well, so I will link that here to refer to it. This would also be another reason to consider the stars depicted as real, since by understanding the universe, stars and the motions of them are also being understood, and that would be reflected on that of the communes.
On top of this, it's cited in the verse that things far above this are also recorded inside of the Great Spirit too. This includes entire planets and other parts of the universe.
Not to mention, it's already been cited from the beginning that the Great Spirit has even witnessed the birth of the universe as well.
Cyberblader's evidence already proves that humans in Shaman King, such as the Mu Civilization, are able to fully understand the universe. And that beings with much superior comprehension above that, such as aliens, exist in Shaman King as well. And these 3 scans prove the Great Spirit records things much above the both of them.
With entire planets and other aspects of the universe being able to be recorded inside of the Great Spirit, and the Great Spirit itself even watching the creation of the universe, this is more direct evidence of the communes replicating our world on more bigger cosmic scales.
And then, as the strongest evidence for this, we see a universe being outright created inside of a commune. Hao's feat of creating a universe inside the commune of the Shaman King, which we previously accepted already.
The universe containing our earth by the way. As well as entire galaxies as cited by Hao.
By this point, we have seen that stars are depicted inside of the Great Spirit's communes. We have direct confirmation on beings in the Shaman King universe, human beings, aliens, and otherwise, having a fully grasped understanding of the universe and how it works. We have direct citation on the Great Spirit recording things far above both of those things inside of itself, which includes other planets and aspects of the universe. We are given confirmation on the Great Spirit having even witnessed the creation of the universe from the beginning. And the biggest proof of all for this, is us seeing Hao outright creating a universe inside a commune.
Therefore, the worlds inside of the Great Spirit have several evidences to show they don't just replicate our earth. They replicate our universe in it's entirety, can become our universe in size, and should each be considered universes.
Communes Being Separate Worlds From Each Other
Finally, now that evidence was given for the communes replicating our world, and the entirety of our world, here is evidence for these worlds being separate from each other to establish each being Low 2-C.For starters, when Yoh and his friends were sent to hell to become the 5 warriors, they each ended up in their own hell communes. These communes are cited as as being different from one another and were separate, splitting everyone up from each other.
Adding to this, Yoh gives implication that souls sent to their own communes may never again meet each other in the Great Spirit, implying traveling across these worlds isn't possible under normal circumstances.
More concrete evidence is here. Hao directly cites that the commune of the Shaman King can't be accessed by anyone under normal circumstances, unless he specifically allows them to.
But the most strongest form of evidence to prove separation amongst the worlds is these scans. Its directly cited that the worlds inside of the Great Spirit cannot be accessed, except by those who have a special power that enables them, or those who are enabled using special cards granted from the Shaman King, to literally shift across dimensions.
And even then, not only is this dimensional shifting given risks, it's also only temporary.
All in all, the worlds inside the Great Spirit are separate from one another, and only those who have special capabilities, or those granted the ability by the Shaman King themselves, are the only exceptions that are capable of traveling across the worlds. Temporarily.
Which should give a strong case of proving the worlds are separate.
At the end of the day, the worlds here inside the Great Spirit should be considered universes, and separate ones, to make them each Low 2-C. And henceforth, putting 2-B on the table.
As For Who Would Be Scaling To This
I saw some confusion on this earlier, so I also wanted to address this in it's own section so the proposal isn't misunderstood.The souls inside the Great Spirit when dying are not scaling to this. The communes being created isn't a feat for them, as it is just a natural mechanic of being back inside the Great Spirit again. So for anyone who thought we would make all the souls in the verse 2-B or otherwise, that isn't what we're doing or attempting here.
The only ones who would be scaling to this are the Great Spirit, Hao, and the 5 elemental warriors.
The Great Spirit scales because the communes are literally inside of itself as it encompasses all of these worlds, they are part of the Great Spirit.
Hao scaling is self explanatory. He's the Shaman King who has united with the Great Spirit and wields its power.
And the 5 elemental warriors would scale since they wield the 5 High Elemental Spirits, which are parts of the Great Spirit itself and hold aspects of it's power in them each.
NO ONE but the ones named would be scaling to any of this, so do not get this confused please.
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to add on, both ren and lyserg are well versed with astronomy, with hao even noting it for ren
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bump
based on the info above, I agree with the original 2-b proposal
based on the info above, I agree with the original 2-b proposal
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I agree with Low 2-C, possibly 2-B.
I still agree with the universe size worlds and separate space, but them having separate time is something I'm not completely sold on. However, Mr. Bambu firmly disagrees with 2-B entirely.
I still agree with the universe size worlds and separate space, but them having separate time is something I'm not completely sold on. However, Mr. Bambu firmly disagrees with 2-B entirely.
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Just to point out, Possibly 2-B was always the original proposal. Hao one way or another wouldn’t be becoming a pure 2-B.
That being said, from the points I’ve given, I think seperate time being implied should be fine since these worlds are all able to be different eras.
That being said, from the points I’ve given, I think seperate time being implied should be fine since these worlds are all able to be different eras.
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Oh yeah, something I just noticed but definitely want to point out.
It’s all but confirmed that the worlds inside the Great Spirit are incapable of being traveled into without special abilities granting that power. Or power from the Shaman King themselves allowing it.
However, it’s also confirmed that all souls inside the Great Spirits communes are able to time travel. Joco’s master cites this. So we know that souls inside these worlds are all universally given the power to travel through time.
Since they can all time travel, but also can’t go to other communes, this should be more implication of separate times.
It’s all but confirmed that the worlds inside the Great Spirit are incapable of being traveled into without special abilities granting that power. Or power from the Shaman King themselves allowing it.
However, it’s also confirmed that all souls inside the Great Spirits communes are able to time travel. Joco’s master cites this. So we know that souls inside these worlds are all universally given the power to travel through time.
Since they can all time travel, but also can’t go to other communes, this should be more implication of separate times.
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