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Shaman King CRT (Part 1)

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Hey so I began rereading the manga again in my spare time and I THINK I have something that may suggest 4-D for Hao / The Shaman King / The Great Spirit.

You can read this mini scan thread I posted on Imgur here.

Basically (I think Cyber may have already mentioned this a bit here before but ill explain it in more detail), in Shaman King, souls can form worlds called communes that are formed from their memories of how they lived before death, with their being countless communes (supported by Yoh saying at an earlier point in the series that the Great Spirit has countless souls that are infinitely connected) inside of the Great Spirit.

One can do things such as controlling their own fate (Fate Manipulation for Hao btw?) and even travel through time inside these planes of existence. Now onto why this could be an upgrade, since these communes confirm time travel is possible, it would imply they are timelines (since they are directly based off of the real world too), which could bump Hao and the Great Spirit up quite a bit.
Click to expand...
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Okay so the run down is that I may have something better than 3-A for Hao to be rated by instead if it checks out. Here are the details.

In Shaman King, souls can form worlds called communes that are formed from their beliefs and memories of how they lived before death. These said worlds exist inside of the Great Spirit itself, and there are at least countless amounts of these communes inside of the Great Spirit. The number of worlds being vast is supported by Yoh once saying that the Great Spirit has countless souls that are infinitely connected inside of itself.

These communes are also implied to be their own timelines since:

-They're directly based off of the real world
-Time travel is confirmed possible to perform inside of these worlds

You can read this mini scan thread I posted on Imgur here.

If this checks out, this would put 2-B as a possibility for Hao, the Great Spirit and whoever would scale.
Click to expand...
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Well from what the scans themselves gave, here are the details:

-Time travel is possible inside of the communes and one can go anywhere, implying a commune is a timeline

-The communes are directly based off of the real world since they're formed by the beliefs and memories of the soul (the Indio commune and hell Jaco was in being explicit examples of this)

-These communes demonstrate at least cosmic sizes (the hell commune Jaco and his master were in had outer space and stars depicted inside it, and since the communes are based off the real world too, having a cosmic size should safely indicate the commune can become what the real world is, a universe)

-The communes are directly called a plane of existence too.
Click to expand...
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Oh yeah, another minor supporting point of the Great Spirits communes replicating the real world (and by real world, I mean the universe and not simply earth of course)

Hao later on explains to Yoh and the others that the Great Spirit doesn't just record the memories of all souls born on Earth, but also records all of history, all knowledge, and even things on a more cosmological scale like planets and beyond.

0259-007.png

0259-008.png


And as I showed already in the prior scans from the Imgur album, communes are canonically explained to be formed by the memories and beliefs of a soul inside the Great Spirit. Joco's hell commune already depicted itself with stars inside of it (already proving it replicates the real world beyond just earth), so along with this point from Hao, communes being universal structures have strong evidence to support them at this point.
Click to expand...
All evidence for Possibly/Likely 2-B
 
Thank you for helping out Mr. Bambu.
 
Okay, I dug through the first dump, and I think some of the conclusions are a bit of a stretch. For example, at one point it is explained that you can travel through time in one of the worlds- which is used to say "well these worlds are operating on different axes of time"- however, it is also elaborately explained that each world is formed by the subjective belief of those within it. The qualities of an individual world (such as random abilities afforded to those within) should not be considered indicative of the qualities of every world. Just an example of an odd conclusion, of course- I don't feel the first dump supports 2-B at all. I also think some of this is flowery language ("Fate Manip" is just your soul forming the world it lives in after death, literally not using fate in any sense).

The second post seems to use the same Imgur dump.

Third one mostly re-states what was claimed from earlier posts.

The last one discusses the Shaman King and his knowledge of all things from the various worlds.

What I think the scans imply, really, is that each soul creates their afterlife (or a collection of souls), the better of which are higher in the Great Spirit. These souls can largely define the rules of their worlds- on a mundane level, this includes Hell having punishment, as those souls desire penance, and on a less mundane level, allows worlds like the Indio Commune to have time travel (which is possible without the Indio Commune having its own unique axis of time). Thus, I do not feel comfortable saying all of this amounts to 2-B.

Thank you for linking the posts, Kukui.
 
Thank you for the evaluations.
 
Okay so to address the above points


Mr._Bambu said:
Okay, I dug through the first dump, and I think some of the conclusions are a bit of a stretch. For example, at one point it is explained that you can travel through time in one of the worlds- which is used to say "well these worlds are operating on different axes of time"- however, it is also elaborately explained that each world is formed by the subjective belief of those within it. The qualities of an individual world (such as random abilities afforded to those within) should not be considered indicative of the qualities of every world.
Click to expand...
I’m not seeing how this is too much of a counter argument. Other than each world being able to be distinctly different from another in terms of what a souls memory or subjective belief grants, there is nothing that says each world would be different in terms of their nature. In other words, communes operating on a time axis should be something that applies to all the worlds.

This is supported by the fact that time travel being a possibility comes from what the Great Spirit itself, where all of these worlds are present inside, grants you.

Mr._Bambu said:
I also think some of this is flowery language ("Fate Manip" is just your soul forming the world it lives in after death, literally not using fate in any sense).
Click to expand...
This had nothing to do with the 2-B aspect of this. This was a separate suggestion of maybe giving Hao a hax from this, but not evidence for tier 2.

Mr._Bambu said:
The last one discusses the Shaman King and his knowledge of all things from the various worlds.
Click to expand...
You didn’t address this point. But to sum up why it’s another supporting point, it supports these worlds being universes since the Great Spirit also records knowledge on things on a more cosmological scale, such as planets

And we already know these worlds replicate the real world from the beliefs and memories of souls, beyond just earth.

Anyway, there you go. 2-B should still be an option.
 
Time travel being possible is not remotely an argument for that commune being on a separate axis of time. Obviously each world is different. This, also, does not mean they operate on different axes of time. Even with these scans it is entirely plausible that each world operates on the same axis, and that in one commune, it is simply possible to travel in time.

Duly noted. I still wildly disagree with the acceptance of such hax (again, Fate hax was suggested purely because the word fate was mentioned).

How does that in any way support each of them being universes? I don't understand the logic here. He knows about many things, which the communes are included in. That doesn't spell out separate parallel universes, to me.

I'm against 2-B altogether.
 
Thank you for helping out. 2-B seems to have been firmly rejected then.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Time travel being possible is not remotely an argument for that commune being on a separate axis of time.
Click to expand...
Mr._Bambu said:
Obviously each world is different. This, also, does not mean they operate on different axes of time. Even with these scans it is entirely plausible that each world operates on the same axis, and that in one commune, it is simply possible to travel in time.
Click to expand...
Considering that each commune is able to be depicted in wholelly different time periods from one another, this assumption doesn't make sense.

Your assumption is also debunked by the very scan. Time travel is possible because the Great Spirit itself grants you that capability within said world. Why would this only go for one commune when this is something generally granted inside any commune, as per the statement?
Mr._Bambu said:
Duly noted. I still wildly disagree with the acceptance of such hax (again, Fate hax was suggested purely because the word fate was mentioned).
Click to expand...
Thats...kinda how fate hax works. But this can be discussed later.
Mr._Bambu said:
How does that in any way support each of them being universes? I don't understand the logic here. He knows about many things, which the communes are included in. That doesn't spell out separate parallel universes, to me.
Click to expand...
Don't downplay what I said please. I said the GS even records things on a scale of recording other planets within the Great Spirit.

Which means, things beyond just earth are recorded in the worlds within the Great Spirit as well. Henceforth, by replicating the real world, it supports replicating the entirety of what the real world is, a universe.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Considering that each commune is able to be depicted in wholelly different time periods from one another, this assumption doesn't make sense.

Your assumption is also debunked by the very scan. Time travel is possible because the Great Spirit itself grants you that capability within said world. Why would this only go for one commune when this is something generally granted inside any commune, as per the statement?

Thats...kinda how fate hax works. But this can be discussed later.

Don't downplay what I said please. I said the GS even records things on a scale of recording other planets within the Great Spirit.

Which means, things beyond just earth are recorded in the worlds within the Great Spirit as well. Henceforth, by replicating the real world, it supports replicating the entirety of what the real world is, a universe.
Click to expand...
Oh my.

Different worlds being in different time periods from one another doesn't matter. The state of the world is decided by the souls that live there dude, this is in the scans you showed the class, remember? Souls from earlier time periods being in an afterlife modeled after that time period sounds incredibly straightforward to me.

Fate manipulation is not granted solely because the word fate is mentioned, no. I don't know what wiki you think you're on.

Yes. Other planets. Not other universes. Thank you for reiterating.

There is no concrete evidence of 2-B. I'm 100% against even a "possibly 2-B" if this is all the justification.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Different worlds being in different time periods from one another doesn't matter. The state of the world is decided by the souls that live there dude, this is in the scans you showed the class, remember? Souls from earlier time periods being in an afterlife modeled after that time period sounds incredibly straightforward to me.
Click to expand...
Lovely lovely, but that’s kinda not an actual debunk to what I said.

Being modeled after the time period the commune is centered on doesn’t magically mean it’s not a different time period. This is some weird assumption from you that not a shred of the source material supports, and why even assume this in the first place?

You also completely pivoted from my point on time travel being made possible for being inside the Great Spirit. Aka, this is not something solely specific to a single commune. It would go for all of them.
Mr._Bambu said:
Fate manipulation is not granted solely because the word fate is mentioned, no. I don't know what wiki you think you're on.
Click to expand...
This wiki sir, and I fail to see how that’s not straightforward when it outright says a soul determines their own fate.

But alas, this is just some extra point I brought up along with this, so I don’t really care if it’s not accepted or not in the end. I got bigger priorities here with this.

Mr._Bambu said:
Yes. Other planets. Not other universes. Thank you for reiterating.
Click to expand...
Other planets within said universe. Aka, beyond earth. And what happens when you mirror the real world beyond just the planetary scope? It would refer to the universe in context. So, thanks

And my very first scans already show the worlds replicating cosmic sizes, so both of these evidences combined help solidify this point.

Not to mention, Hao creating a universe inside the GS in the first place already establishes the point of universal size for the communes even more.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Lovely lovely, but that’s kinda not an actual debunk to what I said.

Being modeled after the time period the commune is centered on doesn’t magically mean it’s not a different time period. This is some weird assumption from you that not a shred of the source material supports, and why even assume this in the first place?

You also completely pivoted from my point on time travel being made possible for being inside the Great Spirit. Aka, this is not something solely specific to a single commune. It would go for all of them.

This wiki sir, and I fail to see how that’s not straightforward when it outright says a soul determines their own fate.

But alas, this is just some extra point I brought up along with this, so I don’t really care if it’s not accepted or not in the end. I got bigger priorities here with this.


Other planets within said universe. Aka, beyond earth. And what happens when you mirror the real world beyond just the planetary scope? It would refer to the universe in context. So, thanks

And my very first scans already show the worlds replicating cosmic sizes, so both of these evidences combined help solidify this point.

Not to mention, Hao creating a universe inside the GS in the first place already establishes the point of universal size for the communes even more.
Click to expand...
Some of this is just plainly ignorant as to how this wiki functions. Genuinely, to the point that an audit into some of your verses may well be warranted. No verse should be receiving Fate Manipulation on the basis that the word fate was used at some point, which is a point you've now doubled down on. I need you to sit down and actually think about what the text is saying. Souls generate their own afterlife- be it by believing themselves worthy of going to an already established one (like Hell) or collectively creating a new one based on that culture's subjective beliefs. Fate, as a concept, essentially refers to the outcome of things- how all things will end up. In the scans you have provided, they are referring to the fact that how things end up, for each soul, is ultimately decided by what they believe, since that dictates where in the afterlife they will end up. Think about it.

Being able to time travel doesn't magically mean you're able to say it is a different timeline, Kukui. Again, this just seems plainly ignorant of how we determine things on the wiki. This isn't evidence, I shouldn't even have to explain to you that it isn't.

So if I copied the solar system, I'm copying the universe? Are you hearing yourself? Dude? There's shit outside Earth.

I'm considering this rejected. At this point I've seen what I need to see to make this judgement.
 
2-B has been firmly rejected then. Immediately stop arguing about that please.

What other revisions should we apply here in given the above?
 
We made a continuation thread, and no offense, but I don't at all appreciate this "firmly rejected" conclusion simply because ONE person disagreed with this.

And closed the thread before giving me a chance to counter his points.
 
Not to mention ignoring evidence that was already agreed on earlier in this thread, evidence that helps my argumentation of 2-B.

Either way, one single person disagreeing and forcibly shutting this thread just to take away my opportunity to debunk their points is absolutely not okay.
 
The continuation thread should be closed. There are other parts of this discussion that we can talk about here. You really need to start accepting that the staff members make the final evaluations regarding what is acceptable to apply, and stop continuing to relentlessly argue in new threads when your arguments have been rejected.
 
I closed the continuation thread.
 
No offense Ant, but I simply don't care at this point. Because this is borderline power abuse.

The only staff member in this whole thread that disagreed was Bambu. No one else. A single person.

And that single person not only ignored previously accepted evidence that helps my argument

But also forcibly closed this thread to take away my opportunity to debunk them, and all because "They say so"

That is not acceptable behavior for a staff member, and im tired of this bias simply because of being staff.
 
Well, I did not remember that @LordGriffin1000 had accepted this, but would appreciate further evaluations from him based on what Bambu wrote above.

As for Bambu himself, he made a mistake in prematurely closing this thread, given that other subjects also need to be discussed here, but was likely stressed out from other work. However, he is perfectly entitled to make judgement calls regarding what is acceptable or not according to our standards, and it is not remotely realistic for you to not accept staff decisions unless there are 10 or more of them uniformly disagreeing with you, as we do not remotely have enough staff to give that much input in so many revision threads at once.

Also, given your recent behaviour in other threads, it seems like you will not even accept that kind of majority not accepting your arguments, which is not acceptable. Our staff are unpaid volunteer workers. You cannot just continue to pester them forever in a war of attrition until they give up and throw their hands up in the air. As a member of this community you have to accept and follow our rules, and our rules are that our staff are the ones who have the final say when evaluating revision threads, not yourself, and you genuinely need to make an effort to adapt to that and stop being subversive.

Now can we stop derailing and return to the main discussion please?
 
I never said that I had the final say in threads here Ant, and never suggested I do. But neither should staff, especially ones who lack or have no knowledge of the given series or its context. Having the final say is literally just another excuse for someone to say no despite the present arguments against them.

I don't take issue with people disagreeing with my takes here, but what im starting to take issue with now is the manner of how these disagreements are being made and done. No one debunking my points, no one even attempting to do that, no one leaving me the opportunity to address their arguments. Simply because im a non staff, my points magically become null and void and someone with a badge and name can just override me anytime they want because of their position. And I simply can't accept that.

I have been a member of this site for several years now, have seen what staff have to deal with doing, have shown my support for the work they voluntarily do, and have shown my appreciation for them doing so. Staff having the final say regardless of what they manage and don't manage to address from the rest of us is unfair bias, and I say this as someone who cares about what happens to this site.
 
Last edited:
It's just how our system works. We do not have the available time and manpower for anything better than this. My apologies.
 
As I said in my previous post...
LordGriffin1000 said:
Some of the stuff like time travel and "plane of existence" doesn't really support universe level in size since there can be pocket dimensions with their own time but the other stuff combined with it seems fine so I agree.
Click to expand...
Now I haven't seen the latest arguments so I don't know if my stance will change but yes, I did agree with the Universe sized worlds.
 
anyways ive got work for abit. i recommend we come back to this when i can post a full summary afterwards. that gives everyone time to relax a bit. There isnt a rush per se, correct?
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
As I said in my previous post...

Now I haven't seen the latest arguments so I don't know if my stance will change but yes, I did agree with the Universe sized worlds.
Click to expand...
Okay. Thank you for the evaluation, but can you check through Bambu's earlier arguments in order to make certain please?
 
Thank you. It is very appreciated.
 
Anyway, I am sorry if I made you upset @ProfessorKukui4Life . The issue is that there are limits to how much you can expect from our staff. While you may be focusing all of your attention on a single discussion thread at a time, they usually have to juggle many at the same time, or 40-80 of them in my case, depending on the situation, which makes it hard to focus properly. Your job is to politely try to present the evidence and arguments, and their job is to try to evaluate if it makes sense or not. It is not a perfect system, but it is the only long-term workable one that we have available.
 
That would be helpful, yes. Thank you.
 
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