Shaman King CRT (Part 1)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No offense Ant, but I simply don't care at this point. Because this is borderline power abuse.

The only staff member in this whole thread that disagreed was Bambu. No one else. A single person.

And that single person not only ignored previously accepted evidence that helps my argument

But also forcibly closed this thread to take away my opportunity to debunk them, and all because "They say so"

That is not acceptable behavior for a staff member, and im tired of this bias simply because of being staff.

 

[Livinmeme]

Is this becoming minecraft Low 1-C part 2?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I did not remember that @LordGriffin1000 had accepted this, but would appreciate further evaluations from him based on what Bambu wrote above.

As for Bambu himself, he made a mistake in prematurely closing this thread, given that other subjects also need to be discussed here, but was likely stressed out from other work. However, he is perfectly entitled to make judgement calls regarding what is acceptable or not according to our standards, and it is not remotely realistic for you to not accept staff decisions unless there are 10 or more of them uniformly disagreeing with you, as we do not remotely have enough staff to give that much input in so many revision threads at once.

Also, given your recent behaviour in other threads, it seems like you will not even accept that kind of majority not accepting your arguments, which is not acceptable. Our staff are unpaid volunteer workers. You cannot just continue to pester them forever in a war of attrition until they give up and throw their hands up in the air. As a member of this community you have to accept and follow our rules, and our rules are that our staff are the ones who have the final say when evaluating revision threads, not yourself, and you genuinely need to make an effort to adapt to that and stop being subversive.

Now can we stop derailing and return to the main discussion please?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I never said that I had the final say in threads here Ant, and never suggested I do. But neither should staff, especially ones who lack or have no knowledge of the given series or its context. Having the final say is literally just another excuse for someone to say no despite the present arguments against them.

I don't take issue with people disagreeing with my takes here, but what im starting to take issue with now is the manner of how these disagreements are being made and done. No one debunking my points, no one even attempting to do that, no one leaving me the opportunity to address their arguments. Simply because im a non staff, my points magically become null and void and someone with a badge and name can just override me anytime they want because of their position. And I simply can't accept that.

I have been a member of this site for several years now, have seen what staff have to deal with doing, have shown my support for the work they voluntarily do, and have shown my appreciation for them doing so. Staff having the final say regardless of what they manage and don't manage to address from the rest of us is unfair bias, and I say this as someone who cares about what happens to this site.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You know what, never mind. I don't care anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

It's just how our system works. We do not have the available time and manpower for anything better than this. My apologies.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

As I said in my previous post...

Some of the stuff like time travel and "plane of existence" doesn't really support universe level in size since there can be pocket dimensions with their own time but the other stuff combined with it seems fine so I agree.

Now I haven't seen the latest arguments so I don't know if my stance will change but yes, I did agree with the Universe sized worlds.

 

[Cyberblader90]

anyways ive got work for abit. i recommend we come back to this when i can post a full summary afterwards. that gives everyone time to relax a bit. There isnt a rush per se, correct?

 

[Antvasima]

As I said in my previous post...

Now I haven't seen the latest arguments so I don't know if my stance will change but yes, I did agree with the Universe sized worlds.

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation, but can you check through Bambu's earlier arguments in order to make certain please?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation, but can you check through Bambu's earlier arguments in order to make certain please?

Yes, I'll do that.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. It is very appreciated.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I am sorry if I made you upset @ProfessorKukui4Life . The issue is that there are limits to how much you can expect from our staff. While you may be focusing all of your attention on a single discussion thread at a time, they usually have to juggle many at the same time, or 40-80 of them in my case, depending on the situation, which makes it hard to focus properly. Your job is to politely try to present the evidence and arguments, and their job is to try to evaluate if it makes sense or not. It is not a perfect system, but it is the only long-term workable one that we have available.

 

[Cyberblader90]

i can post in a summary in 1 hour if that sounds good

 

[Antvasima]

That would be helpful, yes. Thank you.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Alright, I've read through Mr. Bambu's arguments and he does make some good points. But the world's are created based of the beliefs of the soul, and while it doesn't directly state they are universal in size. It's going off what that person's memories/beliefs are so if I believe in the universe being a thing with all the galaxies and stuff. My world would be a recreation of that and we see it does construct other planets and space, so I find it odd it would only recreate the solar system off someone's belief of the universe but just stop there.

It's true that a lot of people would have different beliefs and it's possible not everyone is constructing a universe sized afterlife from their beliefs but wouldn't that mean it would only need 1001 people to have the memories/beliefs of a universe to reach baseline 2-B? Finally, I do agree that time travel doesn't straight up mean each have their own separate time axis but given they are each have their own world (own space), it might be possible they have their own time.

I'll wait for Cyberblade90 to post the full summary before coming to my final answer.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. Starry skies are usually only used as evidence for either a pocket dimension of 4-A size or a partially illusory world without further evidence to the contrary though. Or at least that's our usual standards.

 

[Antvasima]

See here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Creation_Feats#Pocket_Reality_Feats

 

[Cyberblader90]

gonna need a little longer. A small emergency popped up. Will have it done by the end of the day, pst

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyway, I am sorry if I made you upset @ProfessorKukui4Life . The issue is that there are limits to how much you can expect from our staff. While you may be focusing all of your attention on a single discussion thread at a time, they usually have to juggle many at the same time, or 40-80 of them in my case, depending on the situation, which makes it hard to focus properly. Your job is to politely try to present the evidence and arguments, and their job is to try to evaluate if it makes sense or not. It is not a perfect system, but it is the only long-term workable one that we have available.

After calming down from before, I do want to apologize as well for my outburst earlier. That wasn't an appropriate way for me to vent my issues out and it was wrong of me to do so.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. I hope that you are not planning to leave this community. We simply have a certain system active, as it is the only realistic alternative that we have available.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

While it was my initial thought, no I don't want to leave over something like this. I do care about this community still and don't want to be swayed into leaving over this.

All in all, I only really wish that any thoughts I may bring to the table just get a bit more credit so that regardless of the outcome, I know there was at least consideration. Either way, what I said earlier was not the way to address this and was uncalled for on my own part. So I am sorry again for that.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. My point is just that you did receive considerable feedback and evaluations from our staff to your points, especially regarding the calc stacking topic. You cannot really expect much more from a bunch of unpaid volunteer workers with many tasks to handle in addition to responding to yourself.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im aware and understand. That said, this thread isn't really the place to discuss that, so now that we've apologized, we should get back to the thread.

Regarding the above talk about starry skies and such, I just wanted to clarify that the main reason why the point about the realms having depictions of holding planets and stars helps to support universal size, is because these worlds are supposed to be replicated versions of the real world, based from a soul's memories and beliefs. By replicating the real world, and being depicted to have cosmic sizes at the same time, both evidence combined cement the idea that these worlds can replicate the entirety of our world.

 

[Cyberblader90]

so Im going to summarize 3-a/low 2-c hao that was accepted prior (only opposed once by mr bambu) and the argument for possibly 2-b.

3-a/low 2-c



Hao manifests an entire cosmos in the highest commune of the great spirit, of which we see is real later on.

According to hao, galaxies exist in this space

This is consistent with other statements:
In the earlier arcs, the Great Spirit is said to have watched the birth of the universe:

Now, given that the Great Spirit is directly said to be the source of all souls in Shaman King, which would even include souls from aliens, it's clear that all souls in the universe come from the Great Spirit.

Hao later on explains to Yoh and the others that the Great Spirit doesn't just record the memories of all souls born on Earth, but also records all of history, all knowledge, and even things on a more cosmological scale like planets and beyond.

Ad yes aliens do exist in the verse:

Then, after Hao finishes merging with the Great Spirit and awakens, we see his message to everyone's oracle bells (which are canonically explained by Silva to be messages from the Great Spirit itself):

Then when Hao's corpse kills everyone and absorbs their souls, we see the space Patch Officiant cite Hao as being the ruler of the "cosmos" as the new Shaman King.

With Yoh afterwards specifying Hao's spirit to no longer be in the living world, but among the stars:

Then of course we have Hao confirming he wields the power of the "cosmos" now as the Shaman King.

Along with Hao then citing the earth is in a battle against the cosmos

"cosmos" or "space" in this context would be universe since what Hao did essentially made a replica of our world. After all, if the earth and space were created as part of the Great Spirit's Oversouls realm, it would seem strange to first think it isn't the same as our universe generally speaking. Rutherford also refers to the cosmos as "universe" twice.

More importantly:

The 5 elemental spirits Hao scales above are stated to have the power of the big bang, and the great spirit made the 5 of these.

Overall the narrative, statements, and on panel creation feat support universal Hao.

 

[Cyberblader90]

possibly 2-b

Yoh said this when first seeing the Great Spirit:

There are countless souls within the Great spirit. this ties in with the following:

These communes, such as the one Joco and his master are inside of, are worlds existing inside the Great Spirit. These communes being formed by souls that attract each other. Communes form worlds that adhere to the way a soul lived post-death, being formed by memories from the soul.

There countless of these communes inside the Great Spirit, which, arguably, shouldn't be too surprising given what the Great Spirit is for governing all souls in the universe, and Yoh at an earlier point in the series states countless souls being "infinitely connected" within the Great Spirit, supporting the vast number of commune worlds inside the Great Spirit. The great spirit was also stated to have "infinite confines". These communes are stated to be "worlds" and "possibilities".

The are also called "planes of existence".

As established in the prior post above, a singular commune was able fit an an entire universe inside of it.

The sequel mangas give a bit more info on these communes. They are other dimensions within the GS.

Furthermore we know these details:
-Time travel is possible inside of the communes and one can go anywhere, implying a commune is a timeline
https://imgur.com/a/gkxQ4pL
-The communes are directly based off of the real world since they're formed by the beliefs and memories of the soul (the Indio commune and hell Jaco was in being explicit examples of this)
https://imgur.com/a/gkxQ4pL
-These communes demonstrate at least cosmic sizes (the hell commune Jaco and his master were in had outer space and stars depicted inside it, and since the communes are based off the real world too, having a cosmic size should safely indicate the commune can become what the real world is, a universe).

Conclusion
The great spirit has with in it countless communes, which are dimensions shaped the memories of souls.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Lastly Id like to redirect everyone to lordgriffon's excellent post on the nature of communes

https://vsbattles.com/threads/shaman-king-crt-part-1.120527/post-4197102

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright, I've read through Mr. Bambu's arguments and he does make some good points. But the world's are created based of the beliefs of the soul, and while it doesn't directly state they are universal in size. It's going off what that person's memories/beliefs are so if I believe in the universe being a thing with all the galaxies and stuff. My world would be a recreation of that and we see it does construct other planets and space, so I find it odd it would only recreate the solar system off someone's belief of the universe but just stop there.

It's true that a lot of people would have different beliefs and it's possible not everyone is constructing a universe sized afterlife from their beliefs but wouldn't that mean it would only need 1001 people to have the memories/beliefs of a universe to reach baseline 2-B? Finally, I do agree that time travel doesn't straight up mean each have their own separate time axis but given they are each have their own world (own space), it might be possible they have their own time.

I'll wait for Cyberblade90 to post the full summary before coming to my final answer.

That's a silly assumption, though. To be 2-B, you have to assume that the characters are performing a feat they are not shown to do (e.g., create new timelines). These communes show quite literally no evidence of this. To say "it may be possible" isn't good justification for even a "possibly" rating- something has to actually imply that it is true, which is not the case here. We may as well list them as "possibly 1-A" because it may be possible that they are beyond an infinitely dimensional abstract hierarchy yada yada beneath them.

The 2-B rating is a sham.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The communes show quite literally no evidence of this

-Are stated and depicted to be replicated worlds of the real world, a universe

-Show cosmic sizes beyond just earth, which proves these worlds replicate our world beyond just a planetary range

-Time traveling being possible inside such worlds imply the status of them being timelines

-Creating a universe inside one of such worlds supports the notion of them being universal in size like the real world

“Literally no evidence” has no basis here at all and is a severe understatement of the evidence granted.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

- World can mean anything.

- There are a plethora of cosmic sizes between "planetary" and "universal".

- This is not and will never be evidence of separate timelines.

- The big bang is not the creation of a timeline, hence why the pages aren't Tier 2 already.

Literally no evidence, Kukui. Zero. Zilch. None. Nada.

 

[Cyberblader90]

World as in separate dimensions of which the size depends on the person's perception.

We already know members of the patch clan associate "cosmos" as the entire universe for example going from Rutherford's descriptions.

At the very minimum there's going to be quite a few universal size Communes

 

[Mr. Bambu]

World as in separate dimensions of which the size depends on the person's perception.

We already know members of the patch clan associate "cosmos" as the entire universe for example going from Rutherford's descriptions.

At the very minimum there's going to be quite a few universal size Communes

If these are pocket dimensions with "big bangs", possibly (even though a big bang is technically only a 4-A blast, this is a minor point). However the scope of the world isn't even the issue here. For pocket worlds, you need to explicitly confirm it is a separate timeline. Which is not done, even if we take everything said at face value.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

- World can mean anything

Real world = our world. What is our world Bambu? The universe

Replicating the real world can only grant 2 options. Either replicating the world in the context of just the planet, or replicating our world in its entirety and being the universe

The former option is objectively wrong since cosmic sizes are depicted in these worlds and a commune being of universal size is already proven to be a thing thanks to Hao's feat.

Replicating the real world and having evidence of cosmic size, plus universal creation, = these worlds are universes

- There are a plethora of cosmic sizes between "planetary" and "universal".

See above. To assume these worlds would only replicate sizes less than that of universal, when our world these worlds are based on is a universe itself, is an assumption that goes against the occams razor and what's immediately the first thing one would assume.

- This is not and will never be evidence of separate timelines.

But it does imply they are timelines, which is the point you keep missing. Time traveling indicates a past, present and future are present in these worlds, which implies the status of timelines.

Never said anything about this proving them to be separate, but I don't really need to, since the whole bit on dimensional shifting from Cyber's dump should do that for me.

- The big bang is not the creation of a timeline, hence why the pages aren't Tier 2 already.

Where did you get "Big Bang" from what I said? I said a universe being created. Don't twist my wording here.

Literally no evidence, Kukui. Zero. Zilch. None. Nada.

Except it is evidence. Know what isn't? Your headcanon.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

On the note of separation for these worlds also, there are some other things that can arguably mean they are separate from each other.

For starters, when Yoh and his friends were sent to hell to become the 5 warriors, they each ended up in their own hell commune, outright said to be different from one another and were separate from each other.

More support for this comes from the commune for the Shaman King, which is explicitly cited to be unaccessible to anyone in the Great Spirit unless Hao himself summons them there.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Real world = our world. What is our world Bambu? The universe

Replicating the real world can only grant 2 options. Either replicating the world in the context of just the planet, or replicating our world in its entirety and being the universe

The former option is objectively wrong since cosmic sizes are depicted in these worlds and a commune being of universal size is already proven to be a thing thanks to Hao's feat.

Replicating the real world and having evidence of cosmic size, plus universal creation, = these worlds are universes

See above. To assume these worlds would only replicate sizes less than that of universal, when our world these worlds are based on is a universe itself, is an assumption that goes against the occams razor and what's immediately the first thing one would assume.


But it does imply they are timelines, which is the point you keep missing. Time traveling indicates a past, present and future are present in these worlds, which implies the status of timelines.

Never said anything about this proving them to be separate, but I don't really need to, since the whole bit on dimensional shifting from Cyber's dump should do that for me.

Where did you get "Big Bang" from what I said? I said a universe being created. Don't twist my wording here.

Except it is evidence. Know what isn't? Your headcanon.

"Our world" can, again, mean anything. It does not solely mean one or the other. This is a simple concept to grasp.

No. It implies that they are in a timeline. One which they can share with the normal world. Nobody is denying that the places have time.

Previous discussion in the thread regarding big bangs.

There is still zero evidence.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"Our world" can, again, mean anything. It does not solely mean one or the other. This is a simple concept to grasp.

It definitely does mean one or the other. We have never taken "our world" to mean sizes between planets and universes, and there's literally no reason to do that. Our world means either the planet or the universe, just as it is in real life.

Please bring up any case on this wiki where "our world" has meant some random size between planet and universe if you think otherwise.

No. It implies that they are in a timeline. One which they can share with the normal world. Nobody is denying that the places have time.

The worlds of the Great Spirit are explicitly stated to be normally unaccessible. Cyberblader's evidence from before already explains this.

You also completely handwaived my scans that outright says the communes are different and split souls off from each other, and how the Shaman King's commune is separate from everything unless Hao himself gives them permission to enter it. Which supports the implication of separation.

Previous discussion in the thread regarding big bangs.

Not talking about big bangs here, so, irrelevant.

 

[Cyberblader90]

im a just repost my comment from earlier:

World as in separate dimensions of which the size depends on the person's perception.

We already know members of the patch clan associate "cosmos" as the entire universe for example going from Rutherford's descriptions.

At the very minimum there's going to be quite a few universal size Communes

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This has gone precisely nowhere since I've started interacting with it. Arguments in favor of 2-B are becoming increasingly and excessively circular, and are relying on (increasingly and excessively apparent) flimsy evidence. So I'm doing myself a favor.

I am against all 2-B. @Antvasima Take note. If you want someone else to also take a look, do feel free. This is a headache I'm no longer willing to burden myself with.

This is my final evaluation regarding the subject. Cheers.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Since 2-B has been firmly rejected by one of our most trusted administrators/sysops, I think that we should go with Low 2-C scaling instead.

 

[Cyberblader90]

lordgriffon has not given an updated take, and its one staff disagreeing. There should be one at least one more staff to give input since its 1/1, unless lordgriffon changes their take

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally think that Bambu makes sense, so it is two high-ranking staff members disagreeing, which makes it extremely unlikely that this revision will pass.

@Mr._Bambu

Would you be willing to write a summary of your views here, so I can call for other staff members.