Shaman King CRT (Part 1)

[LordGriffin1000]

Alright, I've read through Mr. Bambu's arguments and he does make some good points. But the world's are created based of the beliefs of the soul, and while it doesn't directly state they are universal in size. It's going off what that person's memories/beliefs are so if I believe in the universe being a thing with all the galaxies and stuff. My world would be a recreation of that and we see it does construct other planets and space, so I find it odd it would only recreate the solar system off someone's belief of the universe but just stop there.

It's true that a lot of people would have different beliefs and it's possible not everyone is constructing a universe sized afterlife from their beliefs but wouldn't that mean it would only need 1001 people to have the memories/beliefs of a universe to reach baseline 2-B? Finally, I do agree that time travel doesn't straight up mean each have their own separate time axis but given they are each have their own world (own space), it might be possible they have their own time.

I'll wait for Cyberblade90 to post the full summary before coming to my final answer.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. Starry skies are usually only used as evidence for either a pocket dimension of 4-A size or a partially illusory world without further evidence to the contrary though. Or at least that's our usual standards.

 

[Antvasima]

See here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Creation_Feats#Pocket_Reality_Feats

 

[Cyberblader90]

gonna need a little longer. A small emergency popped up. Will have it done by the end of the day, pst

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyway, I am sorry if I made you upset @ProfessorKukui4Life . The issue is that there are limits to how much you can expect from our staff. While you may be focusing all of your attention on a single discussion thread at a time, they usually have to juggle many at the same time, or 40-80 of them in my case, depending on the situation, which makes it hard to focus properly. Your job is to politely try to present the evidence and arguments, and their job is to try to evaluate if it makes sense or not. It is not a perfect system, but it is the only long-term workable one that we have available.

After calming down from before, I do want to apologize as well for my outburst earlier. That wasn't an appropriate way for me to vent my issues out and it was wrong of me to do so.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. I hope that you are not planning to leave this community. We simply have a certain system active, as it is the only realistic alternative that we have available.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

While it was my initial thought, no I don't want to leave over something like this. I do care about this community still and don't want to be swayed into leaving over this.

All in all, I only really wish that any thoughts I may bring to the table just get a bit more credit so that regardless of the outcome, I know there was at least consideration. Either way, what I said earlier was not the way to address this and was uncalled for on my own part. So I am sorry again for that.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. My point is just that you did receive considerable feedback and evaluations from our staff to your points, especially regarding the calc stacking topic. You cannot really expect much more from a bunch of unpaid volunteer workers with many tasks to handle in addition to responding to yourself.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im aware and understand. That said, this thread isn't really the place to discuss that, so now that we've apologized, we should get back to the thread.

Regarding the above talk about starry skies and such, I just wanted to clarify that the main reason why the point about the realms having depictions of holding planets and stars helps to support universal size, is because these worlds are supposed to be replicated versions of the real world, based from a soul's memories and beliefs. By replicating the real world, and being depicted to have cosmic sizes at the same time, both evidence combined cement the idea that these worlds can replicate the entirety of our world.

 

[Cyberblader90]

so Im going to summarize 3-a/low 2-c hao that was accepted prior (only opposed once by mr bambu) and the argument for possibly 2-b.

3-a/low 2-c



Hao manifests an entire cosmos in the highest commune of the great spirit, of which we see is real later on.

According to hao, galaxies exist in this space

This is consistent with other statements:
In the earlier arcs, the Great Spirit is said to have watched the birth of the universe:

Now, given that the Great Spirit is directly said to be the source of all souls in Shaman King, which would even include souls from aliens, it's clear that all souls in the universe come from the Great Spirit.

Hao later on explains to Yoh and the others that the Great Spirit doesn't just record the memories of all souls born on Earth, but also records all of history, all knowledge, and even things on a more cosmological scale like planets and beyond.

Ad yes aliens do exist in the verse:

Then, after Hao finishes merging with the Great Spirit and awakens, we see his message to everyone's oracle bells (which are canonically explained by Silva to be messages from the Great Spirit itself):

Then when Hao's corpse kills everyone and absorbs their souls, we see the space Patch Officiant cite Hao as being the ruler of the "cosmos" as the new Shaman King.

With Yoh afterwards specifying Hao's spirit to no longer be in the living world, but among the stars:

Then of course we have Hao confirming he wields the power of the "cosmos" now as the Shaman King.

Along with Hao then citing the earth is in a battle against the cosmos

"cosmos" or "space" in this context would be universe since what Hao did essentially made a replica of our world. After all, if the earth and space were created as part of the Great Spirit's Oversouls realm, it would seem strange to first think it isn't the same as our universe generally speaking. Rutherford also refers to the cosmos as "universe" twice.

More importantly:

The 5 elemental spirits Hao scales above are stated to have the power of the big bang, and the great spirit made the 5 of these.

Overall the narrative, statements, and on panel creation feat support universal Hao.

 

[Cyberblader90]

possibly 2-b

Yoh said this when first seeing the Great Spirit:

There are countless souls within the Great spirit. this ties in with the following:

These communes, such as the one Joco and his master are inside of, are worlds existing inside the Great Spirit. These communes being formed by souls that attract each other. Communes form worlds that adhere to the way a soul lived post-death, being formed by memories from the soul.

There countless of these communes inside the Great Spirit, which, arguably, shouldn't be too surprising given what the Great Spirit is for governing all souls in the universe, and Yoh at an earlier point in the series states countless souls being "infinitely connected" within the Great Spirit, supporting the vast number of commune worlds inside the Great Spirit. The great spirit was also stated to have "infinite confines". These communes are stated to be "worlds" and "possibilities".

The are also called "planes of existence".

As established in the prior post above, a singular commune was able fit an an entire universe inside of it.

The sequel mangas give a bit more info on these communes. They are other dimensions within the GS.

Furthermore we know these details:
-Time travel is possible inside of the communes and one can go anywhere, implying a commune is a timeline
https://imgur.com/a/gkxQ4pL
-The communes are directly based off of the real world since they're formed by the beliefs and memories of the soul (the Indio commune and hell Jaco was in being explicit examples of this)
https://imgur.com/a/gkxQ4pL
-These communes demonstrate at least cosmic sizes (the hell commune Jaco and his master were in had outer space and stars depicted inside it, and since the communes are based off the real world too, having a cosmic size should safely indicate the commune can become what the real world is, a universe).

Conclusion
The great spirit has with in it countless communes, which are dimensions shaped the memories of souls.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Lastly Id like to redirect everyone to lordgriffon's excellent post on the nature of communes

https://vsbattles.com/threads/shaman-king-crt-part-1.120527/post-4197102

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright, I've read through Mr. Bambu's arguments and he does make some good points. But the world's are created based of the beliefs of the soul, and while it doesn't directly state they are universal in size. It's going off what that person's memories/beliefs are so if I believe in the universe being a thing with all the galaxies and stuff. My world would be a recreation of that and we see it does construct other planets and space, so I find it odd it would only recreate the solar system off someone's belief of the universe but just stop there.

It's true that a lot of people would have different beliefs and it's possible not everyone is constructing a universe sized afterlife from their beliefs but wouldn't that mean it would only need 1001 people to have the memories/beliefs of a universe to reach baseline 2-B? Finally, I do agree that time travel doesn't straight up mean each have their own separate time axis but given they are each have their own world (own space), it might be possible they have their own time.

I'll wait for Cyberblade90 to post the full summary before coming to my final answer.

That's a silly assumption, though. To be 2-B, you have to assume that the characters are performing a feat they are not shown to do (e.g., create new timelines). These communes show quite literally no evidence of this. To say "it may be possible" isn't good justification for even a "possibly" rating- something has to actually imply that it is true, which is not the case here. We may as well list them as "possibly 1-A" because it may be possible that they are beyond an infinitely dimensional abstract hierarchy yada yada beneath them.

The 2-B rating is a sham.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The communes show quite literally no evidence of this

-Are stated and depicted to be replicated worlds of the real world, a universe

-Show cosmic sizes beyond just earth, which proves these worlds replicate our world beyond just a planetary range

-Time traveling being possible inside such worlds imply the status of them being timelines

-Creating a universe inside one of such worlds supports the notion of them being universal in size like the real world

“Literally no evidence” has no basis here at all and is a severe understatement of the evidence granted.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

- World can mean anything.

- There are a plethora of cosmic sizes between "planetary" and "universal".

- This is not and will never be evidence of separate timelines.

- The big bang is not the creation of a timeline, hence why the pages aren't Tier 2 already.

Literally no evidence, Kukui. Zero. Zilch. None. Nada.

 

[Cyberblader90]

World as in separate dimensions of which the size depends on the person's perception.

We already know members of the patch clan associate "cosmos" as the entire universe for example going from Rutherford's descriptions.

At the very minimum there's going to be quite a few universal size Communes

 

[Mr. Bambu]

World as in separate dimensions of which the size depends on the person's perception.

We already know members of the patch clan associate "cosmos" as the entire universe for example going from Rutherford's descriptions.

At the very minimum there's going to be quite a few universal size Communes

If these are pocket dimensions with "big bangs", possibly (even though a big bang is technically only a 4-A blast, this is a minor point). However the scope of the world isn't even the issue here. For pocket worlds, you need to explicitly confirm it is a separate timeline. Which is not done, even if we take everything said at face value.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

- World can mean anything

Real world = our world. What is our world Bambu? The universe

Replicating the real world can only grant 2 options. Either replicating the world in the context of just the planet, or replicating our world in its entirety and being the universe

The former option is objectively wrong since cosmic sizes are depicted in these worlds and a commune being of universal size is already proven to be a thing thanks to Hao's feat.

Replicating the real world and having evidence of cosmic size, plus universal creation, = these worlds are universes

- There are a plethora of cosmic sizes between "planetary" and "universal".

See above. To assume these worlds would only replicate sizes less than that of universal, when our world these worlds are based on is a universe itself, is an assumption that goes against the occams razor and what's immediately the first thing one would assume.

- This is not and will never be evidence of separate timelines.

But it does imply they are timelines, which is the point you keep missing. Time traveling indicates a past, present and future are present in these worlds, which implies the status of timelines.

Never said anything about this proving them to be separate, but I don't really need to, since the whole bit on dimensional shifting from Cyber's dump should do that for me.

- The big bang is not the creation of a timeline, hence why the pages aren't Tier 2 already.

Where did you get "Big Bang" from what I said? I said a universe being created. Don't twist my wording here.

Literally no evidence, Kukui. Zero. Zilch. None. Nada.

Except it is evidence. Know what isn't? Your headcanon.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

On the note of separation for these worlds also, there are some other things that can arguably mean they are separate from each other.

For starters, when Yoh and his friends were sent to hell to become the 5 warriors, they each ended up in their own hell commune, outright said to be different from one another and were separate from each other.

More support for this comes from the commune for the Shaman King, which is explicitly cited to be unaccessible to anyone in the Great Spirit unless Hao himself summons them there.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Real world = our world. What is our world Bambu? The universe

Replicating the real world can only grant 2 options. Either replicating the world in the context of just the planet, or replicating our world in its entirety and being the universe

The former option is objectively wrong since cosmic sizes are depicted in these worlds and a commune being of universal size is already proven to be a thing thanks to Hao's feat.

Replicating the real world and having evidence of cosmic size, plus universal creation, = these worlds are universes

See above. To assume these worlds would only replicate sizes less than that of universal, when our world these worlds are based on is a universe itself, is an assumption that goes against the occams razor and what's immediately the first thing one would assume.


But it does imply they are timelines, which is the point you keep missing. Time traveling indicates a past, present and future are present in these worlds, which implies the status of timelines.

Never said anything about this proving them to be separate, but I don't really need to, since the whole bit on dimensional shifting from Cyber's dump should do that for me.

Where did you get "Big Bang" from what I said? I said a universe being created. Don't twist my wording here.

Except it is evidence. Know what isn't? Your headcanon.

"Our world" can, again, mean anything. It does not solely mean one or the other. This is a simple concept to grasp.

No. It implies that they are in a timeline. One which they can share with the normal world. Nobody is denying that the places have time.

Previous discussion in the thread regarding big bangs.

There is still zero evidence.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"Our world" can, again, mean anything. It does not solely mean one or the other. This is a simple concept to grasp.

It definitely does mean one or the other. We have never taken "our world" to mean sizes between planets and universes, and there's literally no reason to do that. Our world means either the planet or the universe, just as it is in real life.

Please bring up any case on this wiki where "our world" has meant some random size between planet and universe if you think otherwise.

No. It implies that they are in a timeline. One which they can share with the normal world. Nobody is denying that the places have time.

The worlds of the Great Spirit are explicitly stated to be normally unaccessible. Cyberblader's evidence from before already explains this.

You also completely handwaived my scans that outright says the communes are different and split souls off from each other, and how the Shaman King's commune is separate from everything unless Hao himself gives them permission to enter it. Which supports the implication of separation.

Previous discussion in the thread regarding big bangs.

Not talking about big bangs here, so, irrelevant.

 

[Cyberblader90]

im a just repost my comment from earlier:

World as in separate dimensions of which the size depends on the person's perception.

We already know members of the patch clan associate "cosmos" as the entire universe for example going from Rutherford's descriptions.

At the very minimum there's going to be quite a few universal size Communes

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This has gone precisely nowhere since I've started interacting with it. Arguments in favor of 2-B are becoming increasingly and excessively circular, and are relying on (increasingly and excessively apparent) flimsy evidence. So I'm doing myself a favor.

I am against all 2-B. @Antvasima Take note. If you want someone else to also take a look, do feel free. This is a headache I'm no longer willing to burden myself with.

This is my final evaluation regarding the subject. Cheers.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Since 2-B has been firmly rejected by one of our most trusted administrators/sysops, I think that we should go with Low 2-C scaling instead.

 

[Cyberblader90]

lordgriffon has not given an updated take, and its one staff disagreeing. There should be one at least one more staff to give input since its 1/1, unless lordgriffon changes their take

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally think that Bambu makes sense, so it is two high-ranking staff members disagreeing, which makes it extremely unlikely that this revision will pass.

@Mr._Bambu

Would you be willing to write a summary of your views here, so I can call for other staff members.

 

[Cyberblader90]

ignoring the timeline argument, how do we tier more than 1 universe existing in a being as ap? keeping in mind they are separate from one another.

 

[Antvasima]

We do not have sufficient proof for that they are each remotely as large as universes or separate space-time continuums in combination with that.

 

[Cyberblader90]

not all of them, the patch ones. Bambu never refuted that. For example, the world to rutherford is the universe itself, because of the patch clans exposure to aliens, and the knowledge they gained of the universe from that encounter. The entire patch clan is inside the GS right now, as they were all slaughtered on earth. Each one gets a commune per verse mechanics

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Bambu seemed to disagree about that there was sufficient evidence to prove that, and he made sense to me.

 

[Cyberblader90]

re check his posts, he never addresses my patch commentary

He addresses big bangs for some reason, not the argument rutherford would perceive the world as the universe itself. he addresses the timeline argument, In which im not discussing that rn. Im arguing at least a select group of humans would perceive the world as the entire universe, and as such their communes would be that size

 

[Cyberblader90]

i would like to know the standard for tiering that specific argument

 

[Antvasima]

Human perception is nowhere near great enough to define all of the contents of an entire universe on their own, even with artificial tools, and certainly not in an entirely spiritual environment.

We have no reason to believe that each collection of humans or other sentient beings would need more space than an approximation of their original society to fit inside. It is both irrational and highly improbable.

As such, Bambu is most likely correct.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This has gone precisely nowhere since I've started interacting with it. Arguments in favor of 2-B are becoming increasingly and excessively circular, and are relying on (increasingly and excessively apparent) flimsy evidence. So I'm doing myself a favor.

Im sorry, but no. How is a world being literally based on our universe....not in itself a universe? You have provided literally no explanation against this to support your idea that these worlds are less than the scope of universes despite the Occam's razor and just straight up chose to hand waive everything I said.

We use the real world as justification for things based on it as being universes all the time here, nothing about this is any different.

Human perception is nowhere near great enough to define all of the contents of an entire universe on their own, even with artificial tools, and certainly not in an entirely spiritual environment.

This is straight up proven to not be the case though. My very first set of scans show this.

We are shown that cosmic sizes in these worlds are a thing as the very first world shown has entire stars depicted inside of it. Meaning, in this case, human perception for these worlds include cosmic sizes beyond just earth. AND it is cited as a replica of the real world. Both of these details together are used to prove universal size.

So the point on "no reason to believe each collection of humans would need more space than their original society" is just flat out proven wrong.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Tools?

Mū

Mū (ムー大陸, Mū Tairiku) is a sunken continent that lies at least 2000 meters below sea level. It is also the place where the final rounds of the Shaman Fights are held, as well as where the Shaman King unites with the Great Spirit.[2] According to an American writer, who had heard it from a...

shamanking.fandom.com

the Space Plant is a large spherical room with no gravity and is guarded by Rutherfor. The room is held in a vacuum so anyone who enters must protect themselves or they will suffocate. The walls appear to resemble space due to images of space projected upon them, and these projections are precisely altered to reproduce the stars' actual movements.

Below is the scans for the following argument. Rutherford is not talking about merely tools, but also understanding. Each patch member affiliates with the plant room they are assigned in. Rutherford's plant room represents the universe itself, and through rutherford's dialogue we come to see her view of the world is that of being the universe.

https://official-complete-1.granpulse.us/manga/Shaman-King/0295-025.png

 

[Cyberblader90]

Rutherford's "world" is not the earth, but rather the full cosmos

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And just incase there's confusion, the scans Cyber posted are to prove Rutherford and the patch have understanding about the universe, so that their communes inside the Great Spirit would have proof being fully replicating the universe as per the verse's mechanics on this.

 

[Antvasima]

See here for our wiki standards:

Creation Feats

Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...

vsbattles.fandom.com

We cannot just ignore this for this case only, and definitely shouldn't make them less strict. They are there as reliability safeguards

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wait, what now? Did you post that in the wrong thread by accident Ant?

 

[Antvasima]

No. These are our standards for that just because stars are shown in the sky, we do not remotely automatically rate a pocket realm as 3-A, Low 2-C, or even 4-A. You are required to comply with them, and not start a thread to change them just because you want to upgrade this particular verse either.