Servants Invulnerability downgrade

[Rez]

Anyway I agree with this

 

[Zencha9]

yeah i agree with this

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree with this

 

[QuasiYuri]

It will be combat applicable since servants can go into their intangible (or incorporeal form) at will Cu did it to enter Emiya household in the beginning of fate stay night.

They can do it at will but never fight with it.

 

[LehenDuo]

Servant [Sorcery]
Source: Fate/side material (2004-1-30), p.061
Fate Dictionary
Heroic Spirits summoned by the Holy Grail. A type of familiar.

They are souls of the highest purity, called forth using artifacts linked to the Heroic Spirits, into seven classes (containers) prepared in advance. Properly speaking, they are not something that can be controlled by humans, but because they are burdened by the authority of the command spell, the “absolute condition for materialization” carved into them at the moment of summoning, they have no choice but to cooperate with their Master. They are also capable of reverting into an immaterial spirit form at will, and while in this state can slip through inorganic substances that don’t contain much mana. When Lancer dropped down from the ceiling during his surprise attack on the Emiya residence, he used this spirit form to slip through the roof, then rematerialized once he reached the living room. Also, while they are immune to normal physical interference in spirit form, their ability to affect the material world drops as well, making it advantageous to materialize for battles.

Emphasis mine.

And a entire post on the topic with a bunch of translations, some of the scenes in the first post of this topic, clearing some points on terms and phrasing used.

 

[Shizuka]

I agree too. Also, 1M of messages in Content Revision

 

[Regidian]

Even if Servants were to get downgraded to Low 7-B, I feel like random masters who in general don't act aware of real world weapons (Assuming they're typical like the Tohsakas), and probably wouldn't consider nukes in every statement.

It's not like nukes are plausible for them to get, reasonable to use, or even effective since their magecraft works just as well if not better, so it makes sense they wouldn't consider them.

Well in fate redline servant battle in the middle of a nuke, and not all servant are 6-C in dura, many are 9-B but they still can't be harm.

Knight of owner talk about servant would just outright ignore bullet of fighter jet.

He can take control of the missiles it launches so that they track down opponents, and while the bullets of a fighter jet would generally be easily avoided or outright ignored by a Servant, they become fast and powerful enough to be a serious threat under the effects of Knight of Owner.


Here too Nasu mention it

Fate/stay night Premium FanBook, p.047 - Q: How strong are Servants?
But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful.

And we have this in fate heaven feel day 15.


"Right, next question. Are Servants still spirits even if they take physical form? So you can't hurt them with normal weapons?"


"…Let's see. A normal Servant will be able to nullify them, but those consumed by Sakura are another matter.
Having received bodies from Sakura, they cannot return to spiritual form.
Strong magical weapons should be able to penetrate through their shadows."

"I see, then it's decided. There's a chance of victory, and the roles are clear.
Rider. I want you to beat Saber one-on-one. To be specific"



Same for the scan you used it's can't be used to talk about the intangibility as it was used to describe Arturia and Arturia in fate stay night can't become intangible.


"Me? …Well, okay. So in short, you are misinterpreting that Saber can be only hurt using sorcery, right?"

Uh-huh. "in short," right. That'll be the day.

"Uh, no… that's not exactly what I meant.

I just thought it was amazing if the armor is that strong."

"Of course it's amazing. Not just Saber, but all the Servants are heroic spirits. There's the fact that they're spirits, but they can't be hurt by normal means. That's because Servants themselves are divine mysteries."



."The only ones that can physically hurt the Servants are other Servants, heroic spirits like them. So in other words, if a Servant was using it, even a paper knife could hurt Saber."


Here another mention and adding prana to thing is what alow normal thing to affect servant but it doesn't make these attack automatically 6-C so it's not about strengh of the thing (otherwise knight of owner of lancelot would not need to exist as it's the thing that make modern weapon equal in strengh to servant). It's just that servant are Mystery and only Mystery can affect mystery.

Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana
accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting
into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.

It was the same as a Servant throwing dirks with prana loaded into them… Though, it was the
first time Ruler had witness of the phenomenon of prana clinging even to fragments smashed
apart with a sword.


We have that too, servant weapon can hurt servant because they are spirit form like them.

"There are ways for even us to defeat Saber.
We just need to use magic that exceeds Saber's magic resistance, or use the weapon she uses and cut her neck while she's asleep. Servants' weapons are in spirit form like them, so they should be able to hurt them."

 

[Regidian]

Anyways telling that the explication of rin is about their intangibility is not possible with the context.

As the context is shirou thinking that arturia can't be hurt by normal mean because her armor, arturia ask rin to explain him.

rin explain him it's not just about saber but that all servant can't be damaged by normal mean because servant are divine mysteries.


If this was about their spiritual form and intangibility their will never include arturia as arturia can't become intangible nor take spiritual form and the discussion would never existed in first because it begin with arturia being "immune" to it.

 

[Rez]

Oh yeah Saber can't go intangible so I disagree with this

 

[Regidian]

For the record I do agree, but not for the reasons given here (honestly pretty bad lol)

The scans used are mistranslated, as seen here.

TL;DR, Servants have Invulnerability, yes. Via Intangibility. They render all modern weapons useless via spirit form.

This does make Intangibility more usable in fights with opponents with no NPI or ESP, so, yay.

And here the spiritual "corpora" is not their spirit form. As here it's tell that even when they are in material form their still spiritual "corpora"

Then, moving on.
　サーヴァントは実体化していても、
Even if a Servant corporealizes,
　カテゴリー的には霊体なんだろ。
they're still categorically spiritual corpora, yes?
　となると、通常の武器ではサーヴァントを傷つけられないのか」
Ergo, would conventional weapons be incapable of rendering injury to a Servant?

 

[Veloxt1r0kore]

Shit, now this looks complicated with Rin statement

I'm gonna change my approval to neutral until we reached a final conclusion

 

[Regidian]

That could just mean that only magecraft is powerful enough to damage a Servant, since there's literally no real-world weapon that could even scratch them by our site's standards, even nuclear weapons.

Some servant are 9-B so not possible + normal thing added with accidental prana doens't go up in dura/AP which mean these rock that affect Ruler armor is not 6-C now. And if you ask Ruler jeanne can't go on spiritual from too she use a human body to be here.


Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana
accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting
into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Same.

 

[Veloxt1r0kore]

Same.

Wait, you agree on Regi argument or what?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Wait, you agree on Regi argument or what?

I meant same as you, switching to neutral.

She did bring stuff that changes p much everything I was agreeing with.

 

[Pain_to12]

• 
  Invulnerability: Servants are Divine Mysteries that cannot be harmed by modern weapons such as guns, knives, or bombs unless they are infused with a supernatural aspect such as magical energy or possess a certain amount of age.

Doesn't the description already answers everything? You cannot.hurt servant unless you use some form of supernatural energy(magic) or it possesses a certain amount of age, the rin that was mentioned that harmed servants used magic, no human can fight servants without magic comprised with what was said, I will have to stay neutral for now

 

[QuasiYuri]

Doesn't the description already answers everything? You cannot.hurt servant unless you use some form of supernatural energy(magic) or it possesses a certain amount of age, the rin that was mentioned that harmed servants used magic, no human can fight servants without magic comprised with what was said, I will have to stay neutral for now

Well, you have Cu died in two car accident...

 

[Regidian]

Well, you have Cu died in two car accident...

Doesn't these two death are in the comical aspect?

But anyways even in the long past when servant was not that strong in physically/durability, Nasu tell that modern weapon that have more destructive power than them would still not do a thing to them


Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image.

 

[Pain_to12]

Well, you have Cu died in two car accident...

How old were the cars? Definitely vintages

 

[QuasiYuri]

How old were the cars? Definitely vintages

The Gae Bolg Formule 1 was def recent

 

[Tam0n3n]

I agree with Regidian

 

[The_Smashor]

Well we should probably have that interview and not a random Rin quote that dosn't actually confirm anything.

 

[Veloxt1r0kore]

Well we should probably have that interview and not a random Rin quote that dosn't actually confirm anything.

How's Rin quote doesn't confirm anything? Just asking

 

[Shmooply]

How's Rin quote doesn't confirm anything? Just asking

Because of this, I guess?

There's no reason to believe that Servants are immune to modern weapons that are on their level, and there's no reason to assume that Rin included things like nukes when she said that (Espesially since Rin in general lacks knowledge of modern technology, making it unlikely she even knows nuclear bombs exist, and even if she does she probably dosn't know exactly how strong they are).

 

[QuasiYuri]

Because of this, I guess?

Uh, even dudes who dk shit about technology knows about nukes.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

It could be changed to the interview of Nasu to make things more clear, though also considering the context of the image of Rin it also valid and honestly how Rin wouldn't know about bombs and nukes? I mean, don't she have the best grades of her class? That would mean that she neither had story lessons about the WW, class of quimic and so

 

[Rez]

Because of this, I guess?

Everyone knows about nukes
And she is an Japanese remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki

 

[Veloxt1r0kore]

Should post the interview scans here

 

[LehenDuo]

Because of this, I guess?

If by ''modern weapons'' he means ''weapons produced through modern technology'' - Fateverses only, no Gun God/6 Sisters do Magic through Technology yet -, then that quote actually doesn't even make sense.
The very definition of a Servant, a being that is a Mystery in itself, is either in a unrelated/non-compatible scale with Technology or in a higher ''conceptual'' scale, depending on how you interpret/phrase it.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The selective intangibility dosn't seem to let Servants dodge attacks. We have no real reason to assume this is the case.

I beg your pardon? The proper translation shown above outright says this, plain and simple.

 

[The_Smashor]

I beg your pardon? The proper translation shown above outright says this, plain and simple.

That specific translation iirc can be interpreted as "Servants > Modern Weapons"

Other scans support this sort of thing better, and those should be in the section instead of this.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

That specific translation iirc can be interpreted as "Servants > Modern Weapons"

Other translations support this sort of thing better.

We are evidently not speaking about the same thing, so I'll link it again. This is what is being used.

Now, unless I cannot read, this is pretty clearly saying that Servants are immune to modern weapons specifically because said things can phase through their spiritual bodies, as in spirit form. Spirit form not being combat applicable would make that entire explanation impossible.

 

[QuasiYuri]

We are evidently not speaking about the same thing, so I'll link it again. This is what is being used.

Now, unless I cannot read, this is pretty clearly saying that Servants are immune to modern weapons specifically because said things can phase through their spiritual bodies, as in spirit form. Spirit form not being combat applicable would make that entire explanation impossible.

Except Artoria doesn't have access to it, as said by Regi.

 

[LordGinSama]

"Spiritual bodies." is what I saw in those translations (not even sure if they're legitimate or not, you linked a random sight instead of getting the paragraph translated here.) and that doesn't always mean they're intangible. Especially with the way its used here makes me think that the "Spiritual bodies." are indeed physical much like how they are in Records of Ragnarrok, Bleach and a few other franchises.


Can I get scans of Servant's actively being intangible whilst in base and not their Ethereal form?

 

[Regidian]

"Spiritual bodies." is what I saw in those translations (not even sure if they're legitimate or not, you linked a random sight instead of getting the paragraph translated here.) and that doesn't always mean they're intangible. Especially with the way its used here makes me think that the "Spiritual bodies." are indeed physical much like how they are in Records of Ragnarrok, Bleach and a few other franchises.


Can I get scans of Servant's actively being intangible whilst in base and not their Ethereal form?

Their not intangible in their base form at last for the common servant whitout a skill/special thing that let them be intangible.

But anyways i have show statement and feat that show that servant are really "invulnerable" of thing like modern weapon

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Yuri

... and? What exactly does this matter to anything other than Artoria herself? Even besides that Regidian's posts are downright incomprehensible. I am aware that english probably isn't his first language but that isn't helping me.

@LGS

What exactly do you think spiritual means? And even if you give me some hacky answer, it's clear that this has some effect in-verse unlike RoR, so that's a false equivalency. Also, at no point did anyone claim that Servants were always intangible, at least not all of them by default because some are like that iirc,

As for the translation's legitimacy, Fallacies is a known japanese translator with over a decade of experience, on top of the Mirror Moon, aka currently used, translation being known to be bad. And if you don't buy that, you can see in the post that he goes over basically every character and works through it.

 

[Rez]

@Yuri

... and? What exactly does this matter to anything other than Artoria herself? Even besides that Regidian's posts are downright incomprehensible. I am aware that english probably isn't his first language but that isn't helping me.

Artoria is the context here. Shirou thinks saber can't be harmed by normal means because of her armour. Saber asks Rin to correct Shirou on that and then Rin corrects Shirou by stating this

This statement can't be about servant intangibility because saber can't become intangible

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Artoria is the context here. Shirou thinks saber can't be harmed by normal means because of her armour. Saber asks Rin to correct Shirou on that and then Rin corrects Shirou by stating this

This statement can't be about servant intangibility because saber can't become intangible

... yes... I think? I'm not sure what you're trying to say but I am aware that Saber specifically cannot enter Spirit Form.

 

[Regidian]

Artoria is the context here. Shirou thinks saber can't be harmed by normal means because of her armour. Saber asks Rin to correct Shirou on that and then Rin corrects Shirou by stating this

This statement can't be about servant intangibility because saber can't become intangible

This +

Doesn't these two death are in the comical aspect?

But anyways even in the long past when servant was not that strong in physically/durability, Nasu tell that modern weapon that have more destructive power than them(servant) would still not do a thing to them


Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image.

This +

fate heaven feel day 15.


"Right, next question. Are Servants still spirits even if they take physical form? So you can't hurt them with normal weapons?"


"…Let's see. A normal Servant will be able to nullify them, but those consumed by Sakura are another matter.

Then, moving on.
　サーヴァントは実体化していても、
Even if a Servant corporealizes,
　カテゴリー的には霊体なんだろ。
they're still categorically spiritual corpora, yes?
　となると、通常の武器ではサーヴァントを傷つけられないのか」
Ergo, would conventional weapons be incapable of rendering injury to a Servant?

 

[QuasiYuri]

... yes... I think? I'm not sure what you're trying to say but I am aware that Saber specifically cannot enter Spirit Form.

The statement is about her. So how can Rin be referring to Spirit Form when she explains why Artoria herself can't be hurt.

Regi post aren't using good grammar but they are still understandable too.

 

[Tam0n3n]

what else needs to be done besides adding Regis stuff to the invul part? The case is pretty much closed IMHO.

 

[LehenDuo]

"Spiritual bodies." is what I saw in those translations (not even sure if they're legitimate or not, you linked a random sight instead of getting the paragraph translated here.) and that doesn't always mean they're intangible. Especially with the way its used here makes me think that the "Spiritual bodies." are indeed physical much like how they are in Records of Ragnarrok, Bleach and a few other franchises.


Can I get scans of Servant's actively being intangible whilst in base and not their Ethereal form?

Spiritual Bodies is NasuBabble for a form constructed without physical properties.

Also:

Spiritual Body and Material Body
“Spiritual Body” is a word that describes an existence with spiritual properties. In other words, a shape is constructed without relying on components with physical properties. On the other hand, “Material Body” means something that is identical in structure as our flesh bodies. A Material Body, just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton. However, a Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space.
When Servants materialise, they acquire Material Bodies in this world. They can also switch to Spiritual Bodies through their will. Spiritual Bodies have the advantages such as low mana consumption, and difficult to be detected by enemies. One of the properties of a Spiritual Body is that it is unaffected by physical interference, but conversely it is difficult for a Spiritual Body to affect a Material Body. As a result, Servants Materialise when engaging in combat.

Emphasis mine.

How to Defeat A Servant

When a Heroic Spirit emerges into this world, he first acquires a Spiritual Core. The Heroic Spirit then materialises as the body envelopes this Spiritual Core. In order to defeat a Heroic Spirit, one must inflict damage to the Spiritual Core. The Spiritual Core gradually diminishes as a result of massive magical energy expenditure or sustaining bodily damage. Under these adverse conditions, the Heroic Spirit’s expenditure of magical energy will escalate, and should damaged be inflicted through powerful magical energy, curse, or Noble Phantasm, the Spiritual Core will be destroyed, and the Heroic Spirit will no long be able to remain materialised. The heart and head are connected directly to the Spiritual Core, thus they are the weaknesses of Heroic Spirits. Sustaining damage at these locations will significantly weaken the Spiritual Core.

Battle of Servants
The battle between Servants can be called a process of gradually shaving off the magical energy that forms the their bodies. Attacks that consume a great amount of magical energy will inflict a massive amount of damage on the opponent, but it will also weaken yourself in the process. In order to inflict a great amount of damage with minimum expenditure of magical energy, it is necessary to collect intelligence regarding the enemy and assault his weakness.

There's also Kirei quote saying that even if human and servant both are Material Bodies, they are fundamentally different in their substance - as actualized/materialized Ether - something along those lines, implying that even in Shirou's case, in which he is transplanting ''his own arm'' and therefore shouldn't be technically possible for Graft vs Host-like reactions, the fact is that EMIYA body is inherently superior in its make-up and if used, it will fuck him up.

Q: Can the spiritual core of a Servant be thought of as a vital area that, if destroyed, would cause instantaneous death, like a human’s heart or brain?
A: The heart and brain are certainly vital organs. Though they are different from the spiritual core, they can be considered organs directly connected to the core.
When the spiritual core is weakened through energy consumption or damage to the physical body, powerful energies, spells, and Noble Phantasms can no longer be materialized, and the Servant will disappear.

As a remember - the material body is actualized/materialized around this Spiritual Core. Material Bodies are like exoskeletons to this Spiritual Core - the vital organ of the Servant, the Vessel in which the Heroic Spirit emanation exists, as a Soul, anchored to the Master, bound by Command Seals.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Disagree for Regi's reasons

Spirit corpora doesn't mean spirit form, as evidenced by the fact that Saber is completely unable to use spirit form in FSN

The example from Apoc is also pretty explicit, explaining that they are unable to be harmed unless the object used is suffused with Prana (making it magical/mysterious)

 

[The_Smashor]

explaining that they are unable to be harmed unless the object used is suffused with Prana (making it magical/mysterious)

Except it might also just mean Servants > All modern weapons.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Except it might also just mean Servants > All modern weapons.

you realize that non-combat servants exist, right?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Specifically people like Hans and Shakespeare.

 

[Zencha9]

yeah switching to disagree

 

[DaReaperMan]

Switching to disagree

 

[Veloxt1r0kore]

I'm still remain neutral for now, i also waiting @DarkDragonMedeus giving his further argument about the current debate too

 

[LehenDuo]

Spirit corpora doesn't mean spirit form, as evidenced by the fact that Saber is completely unable to use spirit form in FSN

Actually it does, Reitai (霊体). Or let me correct myself - there isn't Material Form and Spiritual Form (Form is already used to mean other things in the Nasuverse) , its Material Body and Spiritual Body. It probably is Fallacies translation, he likes to use some archaic language and synonyms that are... well, awkward. Cerebral Corpus instead of Brain Body comes to mind immediately.

The example from Apoc is also pretty explicit, explaining that they are unable to be harmed unless the object used is suffused with Prana (making it magical/mysterious)

And the CM itself says Material Bodies ''just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton''

 

[Regidian]

Actually it does, Reitai (霊体). Or let me correct myself - there isn't Material Form and Spiritual Form, its Material Body and Spiritual Body. It probably is Fallacies translation, he likes to use some archaic language and synonyms that are... well, awkward. Cerebral Corpus instead of Brain Body comes to mind immediately.

And the CM itself says Material Bodies ''just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton''

We have here that tell that even when their are materialized, they are still spiritual corpora and so conventional weapon can't inuty them.

Then, moving on.
　サーヴァントは実体化していても、
Even if a Servant corporealizes,
　カテゴリー的には霊体なんだろ。
they're still categorically spiritual corpora, yes?
　となると、通常の武器ではサーヴァントを傷つけられないのか」
Ergo, would conventional weapons be incapable of rendering injury to a Servant?


Same with here

Doesn't these two death are in the comical aspect?

But anyways even in the long past when servant was not that strong in physically/durability, Nasu tell that modern weapon that have more destructive power than them would still not do a thing to them


Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image.

Same with here being directly stated by Nasu.

+ The fact that arturia who can't have a spiritual body is immune to modern weapon.

Or that it's tell in lancelot knight of owner that all servant can just take jet bullet whitout injury even for weaker one

 

[Regidian]

Actually it does, Reitai (霊体). Or let me correct myself - there isn't Material Form and Spiritual Form (Form is already used to mean other things in the Nasuverse) , its Material Body and Spiritual Body. It probably is Fallacies translation, he likes to use some archaic language and synonyms that are... well, awkward. Cerebral Corpus instead of Brain Body comes to mind immediately.

And the CM itself says Material Bodies ''just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton''

But anyways you are telling that servant can be wounded normally or not? I don't understand much where you stand

 

[The_Smashor]

Alright, let's get a scans of every statement for this so we can change the Servant Physiology page to not just have Rin's mistranslated statement.

 

[The_Smashor]

A few things need to be specified, however, and it seems these would mostly be lines in the sand for us to draw since they're what-ifs that even Nasu probably hasn't mentioned (Also ignore pre-existing servant durability and resistances and such excluding the invincibility):

1. Are Servants immune to non-physical weapons, such as plasma blasts? (Ex. Iron Man's Repulsor Blasts)
2. Are Servants immune to weapons utilizing non-technological things, such as the elements? (Ex. Star Lord's Element Gun)
3. Are Servants immune to nonmagical, but clearly supernatural abilities? (Ex. Most Pokémon attacks)
4. Are Servants immune to modern weapons enhanced by nonmagical supernatural abilities? (Zora's the only example I can think of but there's probably more)
5. Is the old enough weapons working thing an actual thing or did we make that up?
   • If so, would a character from the future using a modern weapon work on a Servant?
   • Also, how old does a weapon need to be to work?

This is a really strong ability and we cannot afford to be vague.

 

[LehenDuo]

The fact that arturia who can't have a spiritual body is immune to modern weapon.

She can't de-materialize her Material Body - which is still made out of Ether, as she was summoned like any other servant and therefore, even if it interacts with physical objects just like any other existence that has a form with physical materiality, it's not a human body. And again, as they are spiritual beings, their existences aren't that body, but in the Core - IIRC even their Souls is ''Anchored'' by the Master, that work as yorishiro, or at least that makes the whole Servant Summon is Invocation and Evocation-thingy makes sense. She still has the Spiritual Core - the thing the material body is literally DESIGN to protect, obligatory for the function of a Servant Vessel... Can you please read my last post? It feels like I'm literally repeating everything I quoted above...

Any damage to her physical body by an attack without the capacity to actually damage spiritual beings, - first have to go through the Etheric Materialized Body with sheer physical ''output'' Good luck. In the forum, in a fight against someone who had the necessary ways to damage a servant throught pure physical force, but lacked a way to damage the spiritual body enveloped by that material body, yeah, the Servant would ''take'' damage, then spend magical enregy to regenerate the body.

 

[Regidian]

A few things need to be specified, however, and it seems these would mostly be lines in the sand for us to draw since they're what-ifs that even Nasu probably hasn't mentioned (Also ignore pre-existing servant durability and resistances and such excluding the invincibility):

1. Are Servants immune to non-physical weapons, such as plasma blasts? (Ex. Iron Man's Repulsor Blasts)
2. Are Servants immune to weapons utilizing non-technological things, such as the elements? (Ex. Star Lord's Element Gun)
3. Are Servants immune to nonmagical, but clearly supernatural abilities? (Ex. Most Pokémon attacks)
4. Are Servants immune to modern weapons enhanced by nonmagical supernatural abilities? (Zora's the only example I can think of but there's probably more)
5. Is the old enough weapons working thing an actual thing or did we make that up?
   • If so, would a character from the future using a modern weapon work on a Servant?
   • Also, how old does a weapon need to be to work?

This is a really strong ability and we cannot afford to be vague.

1. If you count thing like a nuke (it's not really physical) then they could as in redline their was just battle in the middle of one. For plasma don't know, not sure that was even used on servant one time.

2. Not sure for all element but thing like rock and ground can't hurt servant if not imbued with prana/mana. (Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana
accompanying it could never harm a Servant.)


3.No, mystery is all thing that is supernatural so even if this not magic but counted as supernatural then it would affect servant. (Even in fate it exist supernatural abilities who are not magic)


4.like 3 it just need to be supernatural not necessarily magical.

5. It's an actual thing, mystery accumulate by getting older.

. i don't know, if the modern weapon was from the futur maybe? But if it's just a guy from the futur that take a weapon from the present then should not be.

. Some centuries for having accumulated an amount of mystery, we have like the katana of shiki ryougi who is 500 years old. But it doesn't only need to be old, but to be a thing concealed from the rest fo the world And to have an "history", it's need to be considered as unique.

 

[LehenDuo]

1. Is the old enough weapons working thing an actual thing or did we make that up?

No. A random weapon, as it gets old, will just rust away. The reason Kuji Kanesada had 500 years and was still in perfect state was because it was special from the very moment of it's conception as the sword was forged by Kanesada. If things were like that, any random rock could be a 200k years old, Age of Dragons Mystery, it doesn't make any sense.

This is repeat ad nauseam, but somehow people still have this misconception that age itself someone is important to everything. The ONLY GROUP OF EXISTENCES that accumulates power by the accumulation of time lived/life spam are Phantasmal Species. All the other groups have others ways of doing so. Magecraft, for example, does so by the accumulation of Knowledge - Reason why the time of a lineage is a VERY IMPORTANT factor in said Lineage power, but doesn't automatically means it. Before Flat, for example, the Escardos Family couldn't even understand their own Magic Crest and were seem as molding reliquary that wouldn't accept their own fall.

1. If so, would a character from the future using a modern weapon work on a Servant?

Depends. Even in the Nasuverse, Magic only exists as far as Human ''Progress'' doesn't shine it's light over the Mystery behind it and integrate into the Human Order. Technology that has been shown to affect spirits/ghosts would work on the Servants spiritual bodies probably, if we apply versr equalization.

1. Also, how old does a weapon need to be to work?

Kanshou and Bakuya were born as blades of enormous power from their very start. (The original ones.)
But Kuji Kanesada, for example, was a 500 years old blade. The power if gained was shown to be strong enough to cut modern bounded fields already from within it, given that it wasn't even a defensive type of BF. It wasn't a ''Everyone knows about that weapon legend'', though.
If anything, Kuji Kanesada was good because it was compatible with Shiki - especially her Self-Suggestion because the 9 kanji of the Kuji-Kiri in the blade.

 

[Rez]

This is repeat ad nauseam, but somehow people still have this misconception that age itself someone is important to everything. The ONLY GROUP OF EXISTENCES that accumulates power by the accumulation of time lived/life spam are Phantasmal Species.

Yeah no
From kara no kyokai paradox spiral q and a
Nasu: Even if it was reforged, the years it had accumulated before would be lost.
Takeuchi: A lot of people asked this question. Since I thought it was going to be Shiki’s final weapon, too, I was pretty shocked when it broke almost as soon as it finally appeared!
Nasu: That’s how ultimate weapons should be.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yeah it's pretty explicit that the age gave it the power, I'm not sure where this assumption that only Phantasmal Species have the "age=more mystery" thing is from, but not only is this never said afaik, the complete opposite is shown above

Other examples that its all things which gain power with age include Caster of Black requesting exclusively 800+ year old gems and parchment for the golems (mentioned to be a pretty common thaumatergical ingredient, evidently because of their power), and the following quote from Case Files

No, even if we accepted my brother's theory that the human body still was as a black box, and the Mystery within it was not yet entirely erased, the fact that modern magi in the field couldn't compare to even antiques from hundreds of years ago was an undeniable fact.

Which says that modern magi couldn't compare to the mystery of even antiques from long ago, showing yet again, the age=power thing applying to more than Phantasmal Species

Now before the whole "but magecraft gets power through knowledge so age clearly only matters for Phantasmal Species" thing is mentioned, Case Files also explained that

As a Mystery propagates, it loses power. However, the reason they become more stable as knowledge about them spreads, though it may seem contradictory at first glance, is because of this system of Magical Foundations. In the present day, the most widespread and most powerful Magical Foundation is the “Teachings of God,” used by the Holy Church.
Of course, there also exist families who develop magical formulas entirely independent of such Foundations, and weirdos like Flat who “build an entirely new formula from scratch every time"

It's because knowledge stabilizes the existence of the mystery, not because older stuff isn't more powerful and that only applies to Phantasmal Species

 

[LehenDuo]

Yeah it's pretty explicit that the age gave it the power, I'm not sure where this assumption that only Phantasmal Species have the "age=more mystery" thing is from, but not only is this never said afaik, the complete opposite is shown above

Other examples that its all things which gain power with age include Caster of Black requesting exclusively 800+ year old gems and parchment for the golems (mentioned to be a pretty common thaumatergical ingredient, evidently because of their power), and the following quote from Case Files



Which says that modern magi couldn't compare to the mystery of even antiques from long ago, showing yet again, the age=power thing applying to more than Phantasmal Species

No... It says something can be just old. Flat is basically a monster bron human, that would be erased by the Counter-force if Waver didn't gained his ''respect'' and worked as a moral guide. And, at least as far as I know, there isn't even such a thing as ''can't reporduce a Crest spell'',

“Old swords build up their own mystery and belief around their ancient history, and so become weapons capable of even cutting spells shaped from the Art,” explains Miss Tōko. “So don’t take that thing out again. I won’t be responsible for any eldritch horrors you may unleash spiriting you away.”
- Volume 2, Paradox Spiral, Page 109

I knew there was this quote. Too me a while to find though.
And also, I'm trying to find it in the Novels, but does the Katana actually does anything in the fight? Because 500 yo to cut ''cut Bound Fields'' is nice and all, but it really isn't ''Ultimate Weapon'' like Nasu talks about it in the Q&A

Now before the whole "but magecraft gets power through knowledge so age clearly only matters for Phantasmal Species" thing is mentioned, Case Files also explained that


It's because knowledge stabilizes the existence of the mystery, not because older stuff isn't more powerful and that only applies to Phantasmal Species=

You are using ''knowledge'' with a very different conotation here. The type of ''knowledge'' that strengths the Foundations is the recognition of something as a possibility, so much so that the Holy Church is the strongest Foundation in modern times. The Knowledge the Magi accumulate is how to perform the spells, generally trying to give a shape to the Mystery -> put into their Crest if part of the classic type o Western Magi, aka, sharing the Mystery ''Output''.

You also fail to exxplain how Magi that don't use Foundations would accumulate power.

 

[Ballsdeep69]

the way it works in nasu is that things build up mystery over time not simply because there old. Your basically saying that it has magical energy when it may not.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Why shouldn't we treat the rule of 'nullifying' attacks without Prana/Mystery with Berserker's God Hand rule of 'nullifying' attacks below A Rank?

The statement about normal weapons lacking in magic/mystery not being able to harm them is general; it doesn't mentioned selective intangability and I don't think selective intangability was ever mentioned. strange/Fake mentions that Servants avoid being in Spirtual Form if there are hostile Magi since they would be vulnerable to anti-spirit attacks, and avoid being in Spirtual Form around Servants since rematerializing is too slow. So Spirit Form can't be compared to Logia.

A Servant in spirit form was incapable of taking any offensive or defensive measures. If a Master or other mage possessed the means of attacking a spirit body, they ran the risk of being one-sidedly annihilated. Consequently, remaining in spirit form around hostile Servants and Masters was not a winning strategy. The moment required to rematerialize could also create a fatal opening in a battle of instants. Best to assume it’s already materialized and is hiding somewhere, the chief concluded, and turned a wary eye to his surroundings. There were countless places to hide in the atrium lobby, including the exposed sections of second and third floor hallway.

 

[LehenDuo]

The statement about normal weapons lacking in magic/mystery not being able to harm them is general;

It also is a bad translation of the original text.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

It also is a bad translation of the original text.

At most you can argue that the text is ambigious, but I'd say that invulnerability is the most reasonable interpretation which is what influenced Mirror Moon's translation. Even then, fallacies who did the retranslation of the passages acknowledged that the Fate/Apocrypha passage is explicit about Servants having invulnrability against attacks wihout Prana.

 

[LehenDuo]

It's not ambiguous in the way you are implying, though.

The phrase says servants (without saying specific form) can't be harmed in ''normal ways'', then say that harming them through physical means is the ''right'' of Servants only. The translation adds the ''physical'' in the first phrase from nowhere. It never specificies it. It just says ''in normal ways''.

 

[Ballsdeep69]

question, Why do we treat old age giving mystery as falling under verse equalization?

 

[Zencha9]

question, Why do we treat old age giving mystery as falling under verse equalization?

Exactly
That's a verse mechanic nasuverse has
And no other verse shares an even similar mechanic
And VBW doesn't even allow for characters to get powers from other verses just because of verse equal

 

[LordGinSama]

Exactly
That's a verse mechanic nasuverse has
And no other verse shares an even similar mechanic
And VBW doesn't even allow for characters to get powers from other verses just because of verse equal

Because of a caveat, it's a weakness not a strength. Verse Equalization doesn't automatically Remove any weaknesses. Fate has a distinctive weakness in the form of Mystery being able to bypass Servant Invulnerability, this isn't anything like how Haki from One Piece is needed to interact with Logia's or intang Negation. There's a difference between the two.

 

[Zencha9]

Because of a caveat, it's a weakness not a strength. Verse Equalization doesn't automatically Remove any weaknesses. Fate has a distinctive weakness in the form of Mystery being able to bypass Servant Invulnerability, this isn't anything like how Haki from One Piece is needed to interact with Logia's or intang Negation. There's a difference between the two.

That does not answer my first question about why should it be equalized in the first palce since the mechanic is so different

That is still left to be discussed if it's potency or a weaknesses

 

[Ballsdeep69]

Because of a caveat, it's a weakness not a strength. Verse Equalization doesn't automatically Remove any weaknesses. Fate has a distinctive weakness in the form of Mystery being able to bypass Servant Invulnerability

It's not a weakness though. It's the same as jiren being stronger then Hit's time-skip, not a weakness of the ability but the mystery being stronger then the Invulnerability.

 

[Ballsdeep69]

this isn't anything like how Haki from One Piece is needed to interact with Logia's or intang Negation. There's a difference between the two.

To use that as a comparison, It's like treating it as if verse equalization gives the opponent Haki if they have high willpower.

 

[Zencha9]

To use that as a comparison, It's like treating it as if verse equalization gives the opponent Haki if they have high willpower.

yeah exactly

 

[Ballsdeep69]

yeah exactly

Do you have something of your own to add to the discussion?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

It's not ambiguous in the way you are implying, though.

The phrase says servants (without saying specific form) can't be harmed in ''normal ways'', then say that harming them through physical means is the ''right'' of Servants only. The translation adds the ''physical'' in the first phrase from nowhere. It never specificies it. It just says ''in normal ways''.

Not really, here is the Mirror Moon's translation with fallacies' translation (with the Japanese comparision removed for ease of reading).

Mirror Moon:​ Not just Saber, all Servants are Heroic Spirits you know? There's the fact that they're spirit bodies too, but they can't be hurt by normal means. A Servant itself is a mystery after all. The only ones that can hurt a Servant with physical means is another Heroic Spirit, that is, a Servant. On the other hand, if it's between Servants, it's possible to hurt Saber with a mere paper knife."

fallacies​ Unrestricted to Saber alone, Servants are all Heroic Spirits, you know? There's also the matter of their being spiritual corpora, of course, but if it's by straightforward means ("aboveboard / proper" "means / measures"), they won't take a single injury. Servants are themselves inherently Mysteries, after all. Rendering injury to a Servant by physical means ("of or relating to physics / the physical principles") is strictly the prerogative of Servants who are likewise Heroic Spirits. Conversely, if the attacker is another Servant, it would be possible for them to render injury to Saber with even a generic paper knife.

---

I am partial to verse equalization applying if the weapon in question was highly revered by humans in addition to being ancient. Mystery (largely based on the collective unconsciousness of humanity) is much more passive than Haki.

 

[LehenDuo]

Not really, here is the Mirror Moon's translation with fallacies' translation (with the Japanese comparision removed for ease of reading)

Correction - people, when interpreting the phrase, add a ''physical''

I am partial to verse equalization applying if the weapon in question was highly revered by humans in addition to being ancient. Mystery (largely based on the collective unconsciousness of humanity) is much more passive than Haki.

There's the story about modern weapons, usable by anyway, not being possibilities as NPs, isn't there?
Like Billy's NP isn't his gun, but HIS skills using the gun, differently from Cu's Bolg, which is the Bolg itself + Cu

 

[DaReaperMan]

By the by Fuuma supports that servants can't be harmed by ordinary attacks with his own word. Albeit that is in English Shimousa.

 

[Zencha9]

By the by Fuuma supports that servants can't be harmed by ordinary attacks with his own word. Albeit that is in English Shimousa.

Heard Shimousa has iffy translations sometimes so we should probably double check that

 

[DaReaperMan]

Heard Shimousa has iffy translations sometimes so we should probably double check that

Gotcha, I just mentioned that when I saw it but now I'd have to track it down again since I'm nearly done with Shimousa lol

 

[LehenDuo]

By the by Fuuma supports that servants can't be harmed by ordinary attacks with his own word. Albeit that is in English Shimousa.

Do you remember the part?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Do you remember the part?

I think it's during the "rescue the kids" part in the bamboo woods.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm really late to this CRT, can I get a TL;DR to what's happening?

 

[Ballsdeep69]

can I get a TL;DR to what's happening?

OP is saying that mystery doesn't make you invulnerable while everyone is saying that's wrong. and an argument on whether or not the age of something bypassing the invul should be verse equalized.

 

[The_Smashor]

OP is saying that mystery doesn't make you invulnerable while everyone is saying that's wrong. and an argument on whether or not the age of something bypassing the invul should be verse equalized.

No, I said that the scan we gave for invulnerability dosn't give invulnerability.

 

[Ballsdeep69]

It's also a massive NLF to assume Servants are totally immune to any an all modern tech, espesially since the Fate Series has gone out of it's way to specify when NLF bait is legit before. There's no reason to believe that Servants are immune to modern weapons that are on their level

At least admit to moving goalposts.

 

[Veloxt1r0kore]

Right now we just need to find a better scans for servants invul rather than Rin mistranslation statement

 

[DaReaperMan]

Right now we just need to find a better scans for servants invul rather than Rin mistranslation statement

By the by Fuuma supports that servants can't be harmed by ordinary attacks with his own word. Albeit that is in English Shimousa.

It took place after the Hell people take the kids.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

In context the image of Rin still work because she is talking of Saber who can't go to spirit form, but could just also be added or replaced with the talk of Nasu and/or the part of Jeanne, or any other of the things said in the thread.

Fate/stay night Premium FanBook, p.047 - Q: How strong are Servants?

But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful.

Fate/Apocrypha Volumen 2

Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana
accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting
into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.

It was the same as a Servant throwing dirks with prana loaded into them… Though, it was the
first time Ruler had witness of the phenomenon of prana clinging even to fragments smashed
apart with a sword.

 

[Ultra_instinct_issei]

is invulnerability being removed?

 

[Ballsdeep69]

is invulnerability being removed?

No it's staying just going to give better justification. Also this.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/servant-invulnerability-being-bypassed-by-being-old.124465/

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Bumping as it looks like there is a conclusion for this one.

 

[LordGinSama]

I 100% disagree with using Nasu's interview as a legitimate form of citation. This is literally just a repeat of "Only Stands can harm Stands." Which we don't even take seriously due to it's NLF nature, instead this was just replaced with them being intangible and anyone who has NPI can indeed interact with Stands.


Fine with the ability but I adamantly disagree with the wording used.

 

[The_Smashor]

You know, Mourdred did smoke a cigarette and cough because of it once so clearly invulnerability is invalid

 

[Paul_Frank]

Idk how it's similar and nlf like the stands thing

This has very defined limits, and is stated and shown more than once in the series (those limits being, it only works on things without magical energy/mystery).

The interview statement just reiterates these facts, it doesn't make the ability have a broader scope or anything that could make it a repeat of the stand thing, or an illegitimate form of citation

 

[LordGinSama]

Idk how it's similar and nlf like the stands thing

This has very defined limits, and is stated and shown more than once in the series (those limits being, it only works on things without magical energy/mystery).

The interview statement just reiterates these facts, it doesn't make the ability have a broader scope or anything that could make it a repeat of the stand thing, or an illegitimate form of citation

Like I said its the wording I disagree with, Nasu's interview doesn't state said weakness just that nothing can hurt Servant's or that only Servant's can harm Servant's.

 

[The_Smashor]

IIRC we've never actually seen Servants attacked with non-magical things. Ever.

 

[Veloxt1r0kore]

@LordGinSama Then what are you gonna provose here? We know that we can't use Rin statement again because that one was vague af

 

[DaReaperMan]

@LordGinSama Then what are you gonna provose here? We know that we can't use Rin statement again because that one was vague af

Are we gonna grab the raw from the Shimousa statement from Fuuma?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Like I said its the wording I disagree with, Nasu's interview doesn't state said weakness just that nothing can hurt Servant's or that only Servant's can harm Servant's.

I mean, it says regular/conventional (in the Japanese text) weapons, it's pretty clear that there are limits, and especially using the context of the other statements from before (fsn) and after (apoc fgo, etc) the interview

@LordGinSama Then what are you gonna provose here? We know that we can't use Rin statement again because that one was vague af

You could just like, use multiple things at once as support

As in, the interview, and the Rin thing, and the Jeanne thing, there's no reason to pick and choose a single one when you can link multiple things in one explanation to give evidence

 

[LehenDuo]

IIRC we've never actually seen Servants attacked with non-magical things. Ever.

Actually, there are examples. Kuzuki vs Archer after Caster is dead is the first one to come to mind, in UBW anime IIRC.
And expanding the Servant requirement a bit, we have seen other elementals attacked, though they would (Beowulf)

Like I said its the wording I disagree with, Nasu's interview doesn't state said weakness just that nothing can hurt Servant's or that only Servant's can harm Servant's.

No, that isn't at all accurate as far as describing what the answer is. He is answering ''How strong are Servants?'', his answer uses modern weapons to try and illustrate their power level. He doesn't speak about a number of things about Servants, such as the ridiculous amount of energy they use, the need of anchors, etc etc, and those exist in the work anyway. The lack of mention in one specific answer, that isn't even about that specifically, doesn't make it false...

And it's not ''only servants can harm servants'' in it's entirety. It's ''harming Servants through purely physical means/interference''/something like that - the example being a paper knife, wasn't it?-, is something only Servants may do. Something about Spiritual Rank yada yada - one of those things never really explored in the verse. She them says that even though you can harm them by other means, it's really fucking stupid 99% of time. It's even said that spells and such can harm servants while they are in their spiritual form.

 

[The_Smashor]

Suzuki vs Archer after Caster is dead is the first one to come to mind

Did Suzuki even land an attack in that fight?