Servants Invulnerability downgrade

[Tam0n3n]

I agree with Regidian

 

[The_Smashor]

Well we should probably have that interview and not a random Rin quote that dosn't actually confirm anything.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Well we should probably have that interview and not a random Rin quote that dosn't actually confirm anything.

How's Rin quote doesn't confirm anything? Just asking

 

[Shmooply]

How's Rin quote doesn't confirm anything? Just asking

Because of this, I guess?

There's no reason to believe that Servants are immune to modern weapons that are on their level, and there's no reason to assume that Rin included things like nukes when she said that (Espesially since Rin in general lacks knowledge of modern technology, making it unlikely she even knows nuclear bombs exist, and even if she does she probably dosn't know exactly how strong they are).

 

[QuasiYuri]

Because of this, I guess?

Uh, even dudes who dk shit about technology knows about nukes.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

It could be changed to the interview of Nasu to make things more clear, though also considering the context of the image of Rin it also valid and honestly how Rin wouldn't know about bombs and nukes? I mean, don't she have the best grades of her class? That would mean that she neither had story lessons about the WW, class of quimic and so

 

[Rez]

Because of this, I guess?

Everyone knows about nukes
And she is an Japanese remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Should post the interview scans here

 

[LehenDuo]

Because of this, I guess?

If by ''modern weapons'' he means ''weapons produced through modern technology'' - Fateverses only, no Gun God/6 Sisters do Magic through Technology yet -, then that quote actually doesn't even make sense.
The very definition of a Servant, a being that is a Mystery in itself, is either in a unrelated/non-compatible scale with Technology or in a higher ''conceptual'' scale, depending on how you interpret/phrase it.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The selective intangibility dosn't seem to let Servants dodge attacks. We have no real reason to assume this is the case.

I beg your pardon? The proper translation shown above outright says this, plain and simple.

 

[The_Smashor]

I beg your pardon? The proper translation shown above outright says this, plain and simple.

That specific translation iirc can be interpreted as "Servants > Modern Weapons"

Other scans support this sort of thing better, and those should be in the section instead of this.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

That specific translation iirc can be interpreted as "Servants > Modern Weapons"

Other translations support this sort of thing better.

We are evidently not speaking about the same thing, so I'll link it again. This is what is being used.

Now, unless I cannot read, this is pretty clearly saying that Servants are immune to modern weapons specifically because said things can phase through their spiritual bodies, as in spirit form. Spirit form not being combat applicable would make that entire explanation impossible.

 

[QuasiYuri]

We are evidently not speaking about the same thing, so I'll link it again. This is what is being used.

Now, unless I cannot read, this is pretty clearly saying that Servants are immune to modern weapons specifically because said things can phase through their spiritual bodies, as in spirit form. Spirit form not being combat applicable would make that entire explanation impossible.

Except Artoria doesn't have access to it, as said by Regi.

 

[LordGinSama]

"Spiritual bodies." is what I saw in those translations (not even sure if they're legitimate or not, you linked a random sight instead of getting the paragraph translated here.) and that doesn't always mean they're intangible. Especially with the way its used here makes me think that the "Spiritual bodies." are indeed physical much like how they are in Records of Ragnarrok, Bleach and a few other franchises.


Can I get scans of Servant's actively being intangible whilst in base and not their Ethereal form?

 

[Regidian]

"Spiritual bodies." is what I saw in those translations (not even sure if they're legitimate or not, you linked a random sight instead of getting the paragraph translated here.) and that doesn't always mean they're intangible. Especially with the way its used here makes me think that the "Spiritual bodies." are indeed physical much like how they are in Records of Ragnarrok, Bleach and a few other franchises.


Can I get scans of Servant's actively being intangible whilst in base and not their Ethereal form?

Their not intangible in their base form at last for the common servant whitout a skill/special thing that let them be intangible.

But anyways i have show statement and feat that show that servant are really "invulnerable" of thing like modern weapon

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Yuri

... and? What exactly does this matter to anything other than Artoria herself? Even besides that Regidian's posts are downright incomprehensible. I am aware that english probably isn't his first language but that isn't helping me.

@LGS

What exactly do you think spiritual means? And even if you give me some hacky answer, it's clear that this has some effect in-verse unlike RoR, so that's a false equivalency. Also, at no point did anyone claim that Servants were always intangible, at least not all of them by default because some are like that iirc,

As for the translation's legitimacy, Fallacies is a known japanese translator with over a decade of experience, on top of the Mirror Moon, aka currently used, translation being known to be bad. And if you don't buy that, you can see in the post that he goes over basically every character and works through it.

 

[Rez]

@Yuri

... and? What exactly does this matter to anything other than Artoria herself? Even besides that Regidian's posts are downright incomprehensible. I am aware that english probably isn't his first language but that isn't helping me.

Artoria is the context here. Shirou thinks saber can't be harmed by normal means because of her armour. Saber asks Rin to correct Shirou on that and then Rin corrects Shirou by stating this

This statement can't be about servant intangibility because saber can't become intangible

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Artoria is the context here. Shirou thinks saber can't be harmed by normal means because of her armour. Saber asks Rin to correct Shirou on that and then Rin corrects Shirou by stating this

This statement can't be about servant intangibility because saber can't become intangible

... yes... I think? I'm not sure what you're trying to say but I am aware that Saber specifically cannot enter Spirit Form.

 

[Regidian]

Artoria is the context here. Shirou thinks saber can't be harmed by normal means because of her armour. Saber asks Rin to correct Shirou on that and then Rin corrects Shirou by stating this

This statement can't be about servant intangibility because saber can't become intangible

This +

Doesn't these two death are in the comical aspect?

But anyways even in the long past when servant was not that strong in physically/durability, Nasu tell that modern weapon that have more destructive power than them(servant) would still not do a thing to them


Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image.

This +

fate heaven feel day 15.


"Right, next question. Are Servants still spirits even if they take physical form? So you can't hurt them with normal weapons?"


"…Let's see. A normal Servant will be able to nullify them, but those consumed by Sakura are another matter.

Then, moving on.
　サーヴァントは実体化していても、
Even if a Servant corporealizes,
　カテゴリー的には霊体なんだろ。
they're still categorically spiritual corpora, yes?
　となると、通常の武器ではサーヴァントを傷つけられないのか」
Ergo, would conventional weapons be incapable of rendering injury to a Servant?

 

[QuasiYuri]

... yes... I think? I'm not sure what you're trying to say but I am aware that Saber specifically cannot enter Spirit Form.

The statement is about her. So how can Rin be referring to Spirit Form when she explains why Artoria herself can't be hurt.

Regi post aren't using good grammar but they are still understandable too.

 

[Tam0n3n]

what else needs to be done besides adding Regis stuff to the invul part? The case is pretty much closed IMHO.

 

[LehenDuo]

"Spiritual bodies." is what I saw in those translations (not even sure if they're legitimate or not, you linked a random sight instead of getting the paragraph translated here.) and that doesn't always mean they're intangible. Especially with the way its used here makes me think that the "Spiritual bodies." are indeed physical much like how they are in Records of Ragnarrok, Bleach and a few other franchises.


Can I get scans of Servant's actively being intangible whilst in base and not their Ethereal form?

Spiritual Bodies is NasuBabble for a form constructed without physical properties.

Also:

Spiritual Body and Material Body
“Spiritual Body” is a word that describes an existence with spiritual properties. In other words, a shape is constructed without relying on components with physical properties. On the other hand, “Material Body” means something that is identical in structure as our flesh bodies. A Material Body, just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton. However, a Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space.
When Servants materialise, they acquire Material Bodies in this world. They can also switch to Spiritual Bodies through their will. Spiritual Bodies have the advantages such as low mana consumption, and difficult to be detected by enemies. One of the properties of a Spiritual Body is that it is unaffected by physical interference, but conversely it is difficult for a Spiritual Body to affect a Material Body. As a result, Servants Materialise when engaging in combat.

Emphasis mine.

How to Defeat A Servant

When a Heroic Spirit emerges into this world, he first acquires a Spiritual Core. The Heroic Spirit then materialises as the body envelopes this Spiritual Core. In order to defeat a Heroic Spirit, one must inflict damage to the Spiritual Core. The Spiritual Core gradually diminishes as a result of massive magical energy expenditure or sustaining bodily damage. Under these adverse conditions, the Heroic Spirit’s expenditure of magical energy will escalate, and should damaged be inflicted through powerful magical energy, curse, or Noble Phantasm, the Spiritual Core will be destroyed, and the Heroic Spirit will no long be able to remain materialised. The heart and head are connected directly to the Spiritual Core, thus they are the weaknesses of Heroic Spirits. Sustaining damage at these locations will significantly weaken the Spiritual Core.

Battle of Servants
The battle between Servants can be called a process of gradually shaving off the magical energy that forms the their bodies. Attacks that consume a great amount of magical energy will inflict a massive amount of damage on the opponent, but it will also weaken yourself in the process. In order to inflict a great amount of damage with minimum expenditure of magical energy, it is necessary to collect intelligence regarding the enemy and assault his weakness.

There's also Kirei quote saying that even if human and servant both are Material Bodies, they are fundamentally different in their substance - as actualized/materialized Ether - something along those lines, implying that even in Shirou's case, in which he is transplanting ''his own arm'' and therefore shouldn't be technically possible for Graft vs Host-like reactions, the fact is that EMIYA body is inherently superior in its make-up and if used, it will **** him up.

Q: Can the spiritual core of a Servant be thought of as a vital area that, if destroyed, would cause instantaneous death, like a human’s heart or brain?
A: The heart and brain are certainly vital organs. Though they are different from the spiritual core, they can be considered organs directly connected to the core.
When the spiritual core is weakened through energy consumption or damage to the physical body, powerful energies, spells, and Noble Phantasms can no longer be materialized, and the Servant will disappear.

As a remember - the material body is actualized/materialized around this Spiritual Core. Material Bodies are like exoskeletons to this Spiritual Core - the vital organ of the Servant, the Vessel in which the Heroic Spirit emanation exists, as a Soul, anchored to the Master, bound by Command Seals.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Disagree for Regi's reasons

Spirit corpora doesn't mean spirit form, as evidenced by the fact that Saber is completely unable to use spirit form in FSN

The example from Apoc is also pretty explicit, explaining that they are unable to be harmed unless the object used is suffused with Prana (making it magical/mysterious)

 

[The_Smashor]

explaining that they are unable to be harmed unless the object used is suffused with Prana (making it magical/mysterious)

Except it might also just mean Servants > All modern weapons.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Except it might also just mean Servants > All modern weapons.

you realize that non-combat servants exist, right?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Specifically people like Hans and Shakespeare.

 

[Zencha9]

yeah switching to disagree

 

[DaReaperMan]

Switching to disagree

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'm still remain neutral for now, i also waiting @DarkDragonMedeus giving his further argument about the current debate too

 

[LehenDuo]

Spirit corpora doesn't mean spirit form, as evidenced by the fact that Saber is completely unable to use spirit form in FSN

Actually it does, Reitai (霊体). Or let me correct myself - there isn't Material Form and Spiritual Form (Form is already used to mean other things in the Nasuverse) , its Material Body and Spiritual Body. It probably is Fallacies translation, he likes to use some archaic language and synonyms that are... well, awkward. Cerebral Corpus instead of Brain Body comes to mind immediately.

The example from Apoc is also pretty explicit, explaining that they are unable to be harmed unless the object used is suffused with Prana (making it magical/mysterious)

And the CM itself says Material Bodies ''just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton''

 

[Regidian]

Actually it does, Reitai (霊体). Or let me correct myself - there isn't Material Form and Spiritual Form, its Material Body and Spiritual Body. It probably is Fallacies translation, he likes to use some archaic language and synonyms that are... well, awkward. Cerebral Corpus instead of Brain Body comes to mind immediately.

And the CM itself says Material Bodies ''just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton''

We have here that tell that even when their are materialized, they are still spiritual corpora and so conventional weapon can't inuty them.

Then, moving on.
　サーヴァントは実体化していても、
Even if a Servant corporealizes,
　カテゴリー的には霊体なんだろ。
they're still categorically spiritual corpora, yes?
　となると、通常の武器ではサーヴァントを傷つけられないのか」
Ergo, would conventional weapons be incapable of rendering injury to a Servant?


Same with here

Doesn't these two death are in the comical aspect?

But anyways even in the long past when servant was not that strong in physically/durability, Nasu tell that modern weapon that have more destructive power than them would still not do a thing to them


Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image.

Same with here being directly stated by Nasu.

+ The fact that arturia who can't have a spiritual body is immune to modern weapon.

Or that it's tell in lancelot knight of owner that all servant can just take jet bullet whitout injury even for weaker one

 

[Regidian]

Actually it does, Reitai (霊体). Or let me correct myself - there isn't Material Form and Spiritual Form (Form is already used to mean other things in the Nasuverse) , its Material Body and Spiritual Body. It probably is Fallacies translation, he likes to use some archaic language and synonyms that are... well, awkward. Cerebral Corpus instead of Brain Body comes to mind immediately.

And the CM itself says Material Bodies ''just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton''

But anyways you are telling that servant can be wounded normally or not? I don't understand much where you stand

 

[The_Smashor]

Alright, let's get a scans of every statement for this so we can change the Servant Physiology page to not just have Rin's mistranslated statement.

 

[The_Smashor]

A few things need to be specified, however, and it seems these would mostly be lines in the sand for us to draw since they're what-ifs that even Nasu probably hasn't mentioned (Also ignore pre-existing servant durability and resistances and such excluding the invincibility):

1. Are Servants immune to non-physical weapons, such as plasma blasts? (Ex. Iron Man's Repulsor Blasts)
2. Are Servants immune to weapons utilizing non-technological things, such as the elements? (Ex. Star Lord's Element Gun)
3. Are Servants immune to nonmagical, but clearly supernatural abilities? (Ex. Most Pokémon attacks)
4. Are Servants immune to modern weapons enhanced by nonmagical supernatural abilities? (Zora's the only example I can think of but there's probably more)
5. Is the old enough weapons working thing an actual thing or did we make that up?
   • If so, would a character from the future using a modern weapon work on a Servant?
   • Also, how old does a weapon need to be to work?

This is a really strong ability and we cannot afford to be vague.

 

[LehenDuo]

The fact that arturia who can't have a spiritual body is immune to modern weapon.

She can't de-materialize her Material Body - which is still made out of Ether, as she was summoned like any other servant and therefore, even if it interacts with physical objects just like any other existence that has a form with physical materiality, it's not a human body. And again, as they are spiritual beings, their existences aren't that body, but in the Core - IIRC even their Souls is ''Anchored'' by the Master, that work as yorishiro, or at least that makes the whole Servant Summon is Invocation and Evocation-thingy makes sense. She still has the Spiritual Core - the thing the material body is literally DESIGN to protect, obligatory for the function of a Servant Vessel... Can you please read my last post? It feels like I'm literally repeating everything I quoted above...

Any damage to her physical body by an attack without the capacity to actually damage spiritual beings, - first have to go through the Etheric Materialized Body with sheer physical ''output'' Good luck. In the forum, in a fight against someone who had the necessary ways to damage a servant throught pure physical force, but lacked a way to damage the spiritual body enveloped by that material body, yeah, the Servant would ''take'' damage, then spend magical enregy to regenerate the body.

 

[Regidian]

A few things need to be specified, however, and it seems these would mostly be lines in the sand for us to draw since they're what-ifs that even Nasu probably hasn't mentioned (Also ignore pre-existing servant durability and resistances and such excluding the invincibility):

1. Are Servants immune to non-physical weapons, such as plasma blasts? (Ex. Iron Man's Repulsor Blasts)
2. Are Servants immune to weapons utilizing non-technological things, such as the elements? (Ex. Star Lord's Element Gun)
3. Are Servants immune to nonmagical, but clearly supernatural abilities? (Ex. Most Pokémon attacks)
4. Are Servants immune to modern weapons enhanced by nonmagical supernatural abilities? (Zora's the only example I can think of but there's probably more)
5. Is the old enough weapons working thing an actual thing or did we make that up?
   • If so, would a character from the future using a modern weapon work on a Servant?
   • Also, how old does a weapon need to be to work?

This is a really strong ability and we cannot afford to be vague.

1. If you count thing like a nuke (it's not really physical) then they could as in redline their was just battle in the middle of one. For plasma don't know, not sure that was even used on servant one time.

2. Not sure for all element but thing like rock and ground can't hurt servant if not imbued with prana/mana. (Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana
accompanying it could never harm a Servant.)


3.No, mystery is all thing that is supernatural so even if this not magic but counted as supernatural then it would affect servant. (Even in fate it exist supernatural abilities who are not magic)


4.like 3 it just need to be supernatural not necessarily magical.

5. It's an actual thing, mystery accumulate by getting older.

. i don't know, if the modern weapon was from the futur maybe? But if it's just a guy from the futur that take a weapon from the present then should not be.

. Some centuries for having accumulated an amount of mystery, we have like the katana of shiki ryougi who is 500 years old. But it doesn't only need to be old, but to be a thing concealed from the rest fo the world And to have an "history", it's need to be considered as unique.

 

[LehenDuo]

1. Is the old enough weapons working thing an actual thing or did we make that up?

No. A random weapon, as it gets old, will just rust away. The reason Kuji Kanesada had 500 years and was still in perfect state was because it was special from the very moment of it's conception as the sword was forged by Kanesada. If things were like that, any random rock could be a 200k years old, Age of Dragons Mystery, it doesn't make any sense.

This is repeat ad nauseam, but somehow people still have this misconception that age itself someone is important to everything. The ONLY GROUP OF EXISTENCES that accumulates power by the accumulation of time lived/life spam are Phantasmal Species. All the other groups have others ways of doing so. Magecraft, for example, does so by the accumulation of Knowledge - Reason why the time of a lineage is a VERY IMPORTANT factor in said Lineage power, but doesn't automatically means it. Before Flat, for example, the Escardos Family couldn't even understand their own Magic Crest and were seem as molding reliquary that wouldn't accept their own fall.

1. If so, would a character from the future using a modern weapon work on a Servant?

Depends. Even in the Nasuverse, Magic only exists as far as Human ''Progress'' doesn't shine it's light over the Mystery behind it and integrate into the Human Order. Technology that has been shown to affect spirits/ghosts would work on the Servants spiritual bodies probably, if we apply versr equalization.

1. Also, how old does a weapon need to be to work?

Kanshou and Bakuya were born as blades of enormous power from their very start. (The original ones.)
But Kuji Kanesada, for example, was a 500 years old blade. The power if gained was shown to be strong enough to cut modern bounded fields already from within it, given that it wasn't even a defensive type of BF. It wasn't a ''Everyone knows about that weapon legend'', though.
If anything, Kuji Kanesada was good because it was compatible with Shiki - especially her Self-Suggestion because the 9 kanji of the Kuji-Kiri in the blade.

 

[Rez]

This is repeat ad nauseam, but somehow people still have this misconception that age itself someone is important to everything. The ONLY GROUP OF EXISTENCES that accumulates power by the accumulation of time lived/life spam are Phantasmal Species.

Yeah no
From kara no kyokai paradox spiral q and a
Nasu: Even if it was reforged, the years it had accumulated before would be lost.
Takeuchi: A lot of people asked this question. Since I thought it was going to be Shiki’s final weapon, too, I was pretty shocked when it broke almost as soon as it finally appeared!
Nasu: That’s how ultimate weapons should be.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yeah it's pretty explicit that the age gave it the power, I'm not sure where this assumption that only Phantasmal Species have the "age=more mystery" thing is from, but not only is this never said afaik, the complete opposite is shown above

Other examples that its all things which gain power with age include Caster of Black requesting exclusively 800+ year old gems and parchment for the golems (mentioned to be a pretty common thaumatergical ingredient, evidently because of their power), and the following quote from Case Files

No, even if we accepted my brother's theory that the human body still was as a black box, and the Mystery within it was not yet entirely erased, the fact that modern magi in the field couldn't compare to even antiques from hundreds of years ago was an undeniable fact.

Which says that modern magi couldn't compare to the mystery of even antiques from long ago, showing yet again, the age=power thing applying to more than Phantasmal Species

Now before the whole "but magecraft gets power through knowledge so age clearly only matters for Phantasmal Species" thing is mentioned, Case Files also explained that

As a Mystery propagates, it loses power. However, the reason they become more stable as knowledge about them spreads, though it may seem contradictory at first glance, is because of this system of Magical Foundations. In the present day, the most widespread and most powerful Magical Foundation is the “Teachings of God,” used by the Holy Church.
Of course, there also exist families who develop magical formulas entirely independent of such Foundations, and weirdos like Flat who “build an entirely new formula from scratch every time"

It's because knowledge stabilizes the existence of the mystery, not because older stuff isn't more powerful and that only applies to Phantasmal Species

 

[LehenDuo]

Yeah it's pretty explicit that the age gave it the power, I'm not sure where this assumption that only Phantasmal Species have the "age=more mystery" thing is from, but not only is this never said afaik, the complete opposite is shown above

Other examples that its all things which gain power with age include Caster of Black requesting exclusively 800+ year old gems and parchment for the golems (mentioned to be a pretty common thaumatergical ingredient, evidently because of their power), and the following quote from Case Files



Which says that modern magi couldn't compare to the mystery of even antiques from long ago, showing yet again, the age=power thing applying to more than Phantasmal Species

No... It says something can be just old. Flat is basically a monster bron human, that would be erased by the Counter-force if Waver didn't gained his ''respect'' and worked as a moral guide. And, at least as far as I know, there isn't even such a thing as ''can't reporduce a Crest spell'',

“Old swords build up their own mystery and belief around their ancient history, and so become weapons capable of even cutting spells shaped from the Art,” explains Miss Tōko. “So don’t take that thing out again. I won’t be responsible for any eldritch horrors you may unleash spiriting you away.”
- Volume 2, Paradox Spiral, Page 109

I knew there was this quote. Too me a while to find though.
And also, I'm trying to find it in the Novels, but does the Katana actually does anything in the fight? Because 500 yo to cut ''cut Bound Fields'' is nice and all, but it really isn't ''Ultimate Weapon'' like Nasu talks about it in the Q&A

Now before the whole "but magecraft gets power through knowledge so age clearly only matters for Phantasmal Species" thing is mentioned, Case Files also explained that


It's because knowledge stabilizes the existence of the mystery, not because older stuff isn't more powerful and that only applies to Phantasmal Species=

You are using ''knowledge'' with a very different conotation here. The type of ''knowledge'' that strengths the Foundations is the recognition of something as a possibility, so much so that the Holy Church is the strongest Foundation in modern times. The Knowledge the Magi accumulate is how to perform the spells, generally trying to give a shape to the Mystery -> put into their Crest if part of the classic type o Western Magi, aka, sharing the Mystery ''Output''.

You also fail to exxplain how Magi that don't use Foundations would accumulate power.