- 126
- 32
the way it works in nasu is that things build up mystery over time not simply because there old. Your basically saying that it has magical energy when it may not.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Servants Invulnerability downgrade
- Thread starter The_Smashor
- Start date
- 2,336
- 1,442
Why shouldn't we treat the rule of 'nullifying' attacks without Prana/Mystery with Berserker's God Hand rule of 'nullifying' attacks below A Rank?
The statement about normal weapons lacking in magic/mystery not being able to harm them is general; it doesn't mentioned selective intangability and I don't think selective intangability was ever mentioned. strange/Fake mentions that Servants avoid being in Spirtual Form if there are hostile Magi since they would be vulnerable to anti-spirit attacks, and avoid being in Spirtual Form around Servants since rematerializing is too slow. So Spirit Form can't be compared to Logia.
The statement about normal weapons lacking in magic/mystery not being able to harm them is general; it doesn't mentioned selective intangability and I don't think selective intangability was ever mentioned. strange/Fake mentions that Servants avoid being in Spirtual Form if there are hostile Magi since they would be vulnerable to anti-spirit attacks, and avoid being in Spirtual Form around Servants since rematerializing is too slow. So Spirit Form can't be compared to Logia.
| A Servant in spirit form was incapable of taking any offensive or defensive measures. If a Master or other mage possessed the means of attacking a spirit body, they ran the risk of being one-sidedly annihilated. Consequently, remaining in spirit form around hostile Servants and Masters was not a winning strategy. The moment required to rematerialize could also create a fatal opening in a battle of instants. Best to assume it’s already materialized and is hiding somewhere, the chief concluded, and turned a wary eye to his surroundings. There were countless places to hide in the atrium lobby, including the exposed sections of second and third floor hallway. |
- 967
- 372
It also is a bad translation of the original text.
- 2,336
- 1,442
At most you can argue that the text is ambigious, but I'd say that invulnerability is the most reasonable interpretation which is what influenced Mirror Moon's translation. Even then, fallacies who did the retranslation of the passages acknowledged that the Fate/Apocrypha passage is explicit about Servants having invulnrability against attacks wihout Prana.
- 967
- 372
It's not ambiguous in the way you are implying, though.
The phrase says servants (without saying specific form) can't be harmed in ''normal ways'', then say that harming them through physical means is the ''right'' of Servants only. The translation adds the ''physical'' in the first phrase from nowhere. It never specificies it. It just says ''in normal ways''.
The phrase says servants (without saying specific form) can't be harmed in ''normal ways'', then say that harming them through physical means is the ''right'' of Servants only. The translation adds the ''physical'' in the first phrase from nowhere. It never specificies it. It just says ''in normal ways''.
- 126
- 32
question, Why do we treat old age giving mystery as falling under verse equalization?
Zencha9
They/Them- 4,234
- 1,731
Exactly
That's a verse mechanic nasuverse has
And no other verse shares an even similar mechanic
And VBW doesn't even allow for characters to get powers from other verses just because of verse equal
- 16,991
- 12,131
Because of a caveat, it's a weakness not a strength. Verse Equalization doesn't automatically Remove any weaknesses. Fate has a distinctive weakness in the form of Mystery being able to bypass Servant Invulnerability, this isn't anything like how Haki from One Piece is needed to interact with Logia's or intang Negation. There's a difference between the two.
Zencha9
They/Them- 4,234
- 1,731
That does not answer my first question about why should it be equalized in the first palce since the mechanic is so different
That is still left to be discussed if it's potency or a weaknesses
- 126
- 32
It's not a weakness though. It's the same as jiren being stronger then Hit's time-skip, not a weakness of the ability but the mystery being stronger then the Invulnerability.
- 126
- 32
To use that as a comparison, It's like treating it as if verse equalization gives the opponent Haki if they have high willpower.
Zencha9
They/Them- 4,234
- 1,731
yeah exactly
- 126
- 32
Do you have something of your own to add to the discussion?
- 2,336
- 1,442
Not really, here is the Mirror Moon's translation with fallacies' translation (with the Japanese comparision removed for ease of reading).
I am partial to verse equalization applying if the weapon in question was highly revered by humans in addition to being ancient. Mystery (largely based on the collective unconsciousness of humanity) is much more passive than Haki.
- 967
- 372
Correction - people, when interpreting the phrase, add a ''physical''
There's the story about modern weapons, usable by anyway, not being possibilities as NPs, isn't there?
Like Billy's NP isn't his gun, but HIS skills using the gun, differently from Cu's Bolg, which is the Bolg itself + Cu
- 43,118
- 37,263
By the by Fuuma supports that servants can't be harmed by ordinary attacks with his own word. Albeit that is in English Shimousa.
Zencha9
They/Them- 4,234
- 1,731
Heard Shimousa has iffy translations sometimes so we should probably double check that
- 43,118
- 37,263
Gotcha, I just mentioned that when I saw it but now I'd have to track it down again since I'm nearly done with Shimousa lol
- 967
- 372
Do you remember the part?
- 43,118
- 37,263
I think it's during the "rescue the kids" part in the bamboo woods.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,592
- 9,173
I'm really late to this CRT, can I get a TL;DR to what's happening?
- 126
- 32
OP is saying that mystery doesn't make you invulnerable while everyone is saying that's wrong. and an argument on whether or not the age of something bypassing the invul should be verse equalized.
- 15,707
- 11,450
- Thread starter
- #183
No, I said that the scan we gave for invulnerability dosn't give invulnerability.
- 126
- 32
At least admit to moving goalposts.
- 39,691
- 15,627
Right now we just need to find a better scans for servants invul rather than Rin mistranslation statement
- 43,118
- 37,263
It took place after the Hell people take the kids.
- 6,045
- 3,071
In context the image of Rin still work because she is talking of Saber who can't go to spirit form, but could just also be added or replaced with the talk of Nasu and/or the part of Jeanne, or any other of the things said in the thread.
Fate/stay night Premium FanBook, p.047 - Q: How strong are Servants?
Fate/stay night Premium FanBook, p.047 - Q: How strong are Servants?
Fate/Apocrypha Volumen 2
- 4,060
- 1,713
is invulnerability being removed?
- 126
- 32
No it's staying just going to give better justification. Also this.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/servant-invulnerability-being-bypassed-by-being-old.124465/
- 4,775
- 1,668
Bumping as it looks like there is a conclusion for this one.
- 16,991
- 12,131
I 100% disagree with using Nasu's interview as a legitimate form of citation. This is literally just a repeat of "Only Stands can harm Stands." Which we don't even take seriously due to it's NLF nature, instead this was just replaced with them being intangible and anyone who has NPI can indeed interact with Stands.
Fine with the ability but I adamantly disagree with the wording used.
Fine with the ability but I adamantly disagree with the wording used.
- 15,707
- 11,450
- Thread starter
- #192
- 9,528
- 1,824
Idk how it's similar and nlf like the stands thing
This has very defined limits, and is stated and shown more than once in the series (those limits being, it only works on things without magical energy/mystery).
The interview statement just reiterates these facts, it doesn't make the ability have a broader scope or anything that could make it a repeat of the stand thing, or an illegitimate form of citation
This has very defined limits, and is stated and shown more than once in the series (those limits being, it only works on things without magical energy/mystery).
The interview statement just reiterates these facts, it doesn't make the ability have a broader scope or anything that could make it a repeat of the stand thing, or an illegitimate form of citation
- 16,991
- 12,131
Like I said its the wording I disagree with, Nasu's interview doesn't state said weakness just that nothing can hurt Servant's or that only Servant's can harm Servant's.
- 15,707
- 11,450
- Thread starter
- #195
IIRC we've never actually seen Servants attacked with non-magical things. Ever.
- 39,691
- 15,627
@LordGinSama Then what are you gonna provose here? We know that we can't use Rin statement again because that one was vague af
- 43,118
- 37,263
Are we gonna grab the raw from the Shimousa statement from Fuuma?
- 9,528
- 1,824
I mean, it says regular/conventional (in the Japanese text) weapons, it's pretty clear that there are limits, and especially using the context of the other statements from before (fsn) and after (apoc fgo, etc) the interview
You could just like, use multiple things at once as support
As in, the interview, and the Rin thing, and the Jeanne thing, there's no reason to pick and choose a single one when you can link multiple things in one explanation to give evidence
- 967
- 372
Actually, there are examples. Kuzuki vs Archer after Caster is dead is the first one to come to mind, in UBW anime IIRC.
And expanding the Servant requirement a bit, we have seen other elementals attacked, though they would (Beowulf)
No, that isn't at all accurate as far as describing what the answer is. He is answering ''How strong are Servants?'', his answer uses modern weapons to try and illustrate their power level. He doesn't speak about a number of things about Servants, such as the ridiculous amount of energy they use, the need of anchors, etc etc, and those exist in the work anyway. The lack of mention in one specific answer, that isn't even about that specifically, doesn't make it false...
And it's not ''only servants can harm servants'' in it's entirety. It's ''harming Servants through purely physical means/interference''/something like that - the example being a paper knife, wasn't it?-, is something only Servants may do. Something about Spiritual Rank yada yada - one of those things never really explored in the verse. She them says that even though you can harm them by other means, it's really ******* stupid 99% of time. It's even said that spells and such can harm servants while they are in their spiritual form.
Last edited:
- 15,707
- 11,450
- Thread starter
- #200
Did Suzuki even land an attack in that fight?
Similar threads
