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Servants Invulnerability downgrade

John985 said:
An attack without prana accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting
into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone..
Click to expand...
That could just mean that only magecraft is powerful enough to damage a Servant, since there's literally no real-world weapon that could even scratch them by our site's standards, even nuclear weapons.
Veloxt1r0kore said:
So....selective intangtibility and damage nullification are the way we go?
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Damage Nullification is too vague. Once again, it can easily be interpreted as "Servants > Any real world weapon". 6-C means they dwarf even the Tsar Bomba.
 
Even if Servants were to get downgraded to Low 7-B, I feel like random masters who in general don't act aware of real world weapons (Assuming they're typical like the Tohsakas), and probably wouldn't consider nukes in every statement.

It's not like nukes are plausible for them to get, reasonable to use, or even effective since their magecraft works just as well if not better, so it makes sense they wouldn't consider them.
 
The_Smashor said:
Even if Servants were to get downgraded to Low 7-B, I feel like random masters who in general don't act aware of real world weapons (Assuming they're typical like the Tohsakas), and probably wouldn't consider nukes in every statement.

It's not like nukes are plausible for them to get, reasonable to use, or even effective since their magecraft works just as well if not better, so it makes sense they wouldn't consider them.
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You almost make me got an heart attack lel
 
Such a thing as Invulnerability needs much more evidence, and not just a case of a statement of 6-C dudes not being affected by normal weapons (varies from 10-A to 9-C) without Magic (which can clearly makes normal weapons become 6-C, as an example)
 
The_Smashor said:
Considering the current 6-C comes from a joke statement that's even considered a joke in-universe, I don't think it's entirely unlikely that they may be nerfed.
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There is also the other 6-C thing of Spartacus, and the case of Bunya is completely valid because the NP is explicitly said that use the power of the legend, reason of why it's Rank A.
 
Anyways, that's a thread for another time that I'm probably not knowledgeable enough to make.
 
Alright then

Back to the topic, i said again: are we good now with the change to selective intangtibility? If so then this can be applied

Or do you guys still want to debating it further?
 
The selective intangibility dosn't seem to let Servants dodge attacks. We have no real reason to assume this is the case.
 
Hasty12345 said:
Can you post the statement please?
Click to expand...
Bamboo Broom 2017/4/15
The romances (伝奇, denki, in the sense of literary genre that eventually turned into "fantasy") of TYPE-MOON ... or rather, the romances that Nasu Kinoko has at TYPE-MOON crafted are commonly regarded to 『all be of the same world』, but the matter of their being in the end fundamentally divided into two broad systems has until now been [in fact] revealed in bits and pieces.

　Those worlds of Fate, wherein Heroic Spirits can be employed in the capacity of Servants, and
　those worlds of Tsukihime, wherein it is outright unthinkable that Concepts of such strength as a Heroic Spirit could by a spell be debased as 「autonomous familiars」.

Being that the underpinnings (下地, shitaji, "groundwork / foundation") of the worlds of Fate would be 『those existences that affirm the History of Man』, it is conceivable that Heroic Spirits might also act in the capacity of protagonists;
whereas, being that the underpinnings of the worlds of Tsukihime would be 『those existences that ■■ the History of Man』, those Dead Apostles that are the antagonists of such become as the theme -- the difference [between the two] would be something like that.

So. A certain figure that appears in Tsukihime ... an existence that is within the Church counted amongst the Twenty-Seven Ancestors ... was by way of 『a certain encounter』 let to become a Dead Apostle of significant strength.
However, as in the worlds of Fate, 『a certain encounter』did not in the first place occur, though indeed he became a Dead Apostle, he did not come to hold sufficient strength as to count as 『one amongst the Ancestors』, and those esoteric techniques (秘術, hijutsu, "secret techniques"; "Mysteries" is a mistranslation) [that he held] were become as reduced existences.
Divergences of this variety ... wherein even as the basis of the worlds are identical, the manner in which the dramatis personae come to be expressed differ on account of divergent premises ... [I would be] delighted if [you, the audience] could enjoy this.
Click to expand...
 
Every players needed proof of hero.......my newest servant Percival ate most of it....And if you targeting Super Orion this December in NA, you need tons of them.
 
John985 said:
Every players needed proof of hero.......my newest servant Percival ate most of it....And if you targeting Super Orion this December in NA, you need tons of them.
Click to expand...
Nope, Gilgamesh needs em. and oh ******* boy are they a bitch to farm.
 
John985 said:
HF day 16

Right, next question. Are Servants still spirits even if they take physical form? So you can't hurt them with normal weapons?"

"…Let's see. A normal Servant will be able to nullify them, but those consumed by Sakura are another matter.
Having received bodies from Sakura, they cannot return to spiritual form.
Strong magical weapons should be able to penetrate through their shadows."
Click to expand...
This flat out says that the thing protecting them is the Spirit Form, so I'll agree with the OP for now.

Btw it would be 100% non-combat applicable for the form itself, given how it is a retreat / energy economy state.
After all Trap of Alegria is considered as an attack just because it turns an opponent's part into Spiritual Form.
 
QuasiYuri said:
This flat out says that the thing protecting them is the Spirit Form, so I'll agree with the OP for now.

Btw it would be 100% non-combat applicable for the form itself, given how it is a retreat / energy economy state.
After all Trap of Alegria is considered as an attack just because it turns an opponent's part into Spiritual Form.
Click to expand...
It will be combat applicable since servants can go into their intangible (or incorporeal form) at will Cu did it to enter Emiya household in the beginning of fate stay night

And trap of argalia turns servants into spiritual form by forcefully cutting of the magical energy supply to that part(legs)
 
Rez said:
It will be combat applicable since servants can go into their intangible (or incorporeal form) at will Cu did it to enter Emiya household in the beginning of fate stay night.
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They can do it at will but never fight with it.
 
Servant [Sorcery]
Source: Fate/side material (2004-1-30), p.061
Fate Dictionary
Heroic Spirits summoned by the Holy Grail. A type of familiar.

They are souls of the highest purity, called forth using artifacts linked to the Heroic Spirits, into seven classes (containers) prepared in advance. Properly speaking, they are not something that can be controlled by humans, but because they are burdened by the authority of the command spell, the “absolute condition for materialization” carved into them at the moment of summoning, they have no choice but to cooperate with their Master. They are also capable of reverting into an immaterial spirit form at will, and while in this state can slip through inorganic substances that don’t contain much mana. When Lancer dropped down from the ceiling during his surprise attack on the Emiya residence, he used this spirit form to slip through the roof, then rematerialized once he reached the living room. Also, while they are immune to normal physical interference in spirit form, their ability to affect the material world drops as well, making it advantageous to materialize for battles.
Click to expand...
Emphasis mine.

And a entire post on the topic with a bunch of translations, some of the scenes in the first post of this topic, clearing some points on terms and phrasing used.
 
The_Smashor said:
Even if Servants were to get downgraded to Low 7-B, I feel like random masters who in general don't act aware of real world weapons (Assuming they're typical like the Tohsakas), and probably wouldn't consider nukes in every statement.

It's not like nukes are plausible for them to get, reasonable to use, or even effective since their magecraft works just as well if not better, so it makes sense they wouldn't consider them.
Click to expand...
Well in fate redline servant battle in the middle of a nuke, and not all servant are 6-C in dura, many are 9-B but they still can't be harm.

Knight of owner talk about servant would just outright ignore bullet of fighter jet.

He can take control of the missiles it launches so that they track down opponents, and while the bullets of a fighter jet would generally be easily avoided or outright ignored by a Servant, they become fast and powerful enough to be a serious threat under the effects of Knight of Owner.


Here too Nasu mention it

Fate/stay night Premium FanBook, p.047 - Q: How strong are Servants?
But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful.

And we have this in fate heaven feel day 15.


"Right, next question. Are Servants still spirits even if they take physical form? So you can't hurt them with normal weapons?"


"…Let's see. A normal Servant will be able to nullify them, but those consumed by Sakura are another matter.
Having received bodies from Sakura, they cannot return to spiritual form.
Strong magical weapons should be able to penetrate through their shadows."

"I see, then it's decided. There's a chance of victory, and the roles are clear.
Rider. I want you to beat Saber one-on-one. To be specific"



Same for the scan you used it's can't be used to talk about the intangibility as it was used to describe Arturia and Arturia in fate stay night can't become intangible.


"Me? …Well, okay. So in short, you are misinterpreting that Saber can be only hurt using sorcery, right?"

Uh-huh. "in short," right. That'll be the day.

"Uh, no… that's not exactly what I meant.

I just thought it was amazing if the armor is that strong."

"Of course it's amazing. Not just Saber, but all the Servants are heroic spirits. There's the fact that they're spirits, but they can't be hurt by normal means. That's because Servants themselves are divine mysteries."



."The only ones that can physically hurt the Servants are other Servants, heroic spirits like them. So in other words, if a Servant was using it, even a paper knife could hurt Saber."


Here another mention and adding prana to thing is what alow normal thing to affect servant but it doesn't make these attack automatically 6-C so it's not about strengh of the thing (otherwise knight of owner of lancelot would not need to exist as it's the thing that make modern weapon equal in strengh to servant). It's just that servant are Mystery and only Mystery can affect mystery.

Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana
accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting
into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.

It was the same as a Servant throwing dirks with prana loaded into them… Though, it was the
first time Ruler had witness of the phenomenon of prana clinging even to fragments smashed
apart with a sword.


We have that too, servant weapon can hurt servant because they are spirit form like them.

"There are ways for even us to defeat Saber.
We just need to use magic that exceeds Saber's magic resistance, or use the weapon she uses and cut her neck while she's asleep. Servants' weapons are in spirit form like them, so they should be able to hurt them."
 
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Anyways telling that the explication of rin is about their intangibility is not possible with the context.

As the context is shirou thinking that arturia can't be hurt by normal mean because her armor, arturia ask rin to explain him.

rin explain him it's not just about saber but that all servant can't be damaged by normal mean because servant are divine mysteries.


If this was about their spiritual form and intangibility their will never include arturia as arturia can't become intangible nor take spiritual form and the discussion would never existed in first because it begin with arturia being "immune" to it.
 
CrimsonStarFallen said:
For the record I do agree, but not for the reasons given here (honestly pretty bad lol)

The scans used are mistranslated, as seen here.

TL;DR, Servants have Invulnerability, yes. Via Intangibility. They render all modern weapons useless via spirit form.

This does make Intangibility more usable in fights with opponents with no NPI or ESP, so, yay.
Click to expand...
And here the spiritual "corpora" is not their spirit form. As here it's tell that even when they are in material form their still spiritual "corpora"

Then, moving on.
　サーヴァントは実体化していても、
Even if a Servant corporealizes,
　カテゴリー的には霊体なんだろ。
they're still categorically spiritual corpora, yes?
　となると、通常の武器ではサーヴァントを傷つけられないのか」
Ergo, would conventional weapons be incapable of rendering injury to a Servant?
 
The_Smashor said:
That could just mean that only magecraft is powerful enough to damage a Servant, since there's literally no real-world weapon that could even scratch them by our site's standards, even nuclear weapons.
Click to expand...
Some servant are 9-B so not possible + normal thing added with accidental prana doens't go up in dura/AP which mean these rock that affect Ruler armor is not 6-C now. And if you ask Ruler jeanne can't go on spiritual from too she use a human body to be here.


Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana
accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting
into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.
 
Click to expand...
Doesn't the description already answers everything? You cannot.hurt servant unless you use some form of supernatural energy(magic) or it possesses a certain amount of age, the rin that was mentioned that harmed servants used magic, no human can fight servants without magic comprised with what was said, I will have to stay neutral for now
 
Pain_to12 said:
Doesn't the description already answers everything? You cannot.hurt servant unless you use some form of supernatural energy(magic) or it possesses a certain amount of age, the rin that was mentioned that harmed servants used magic, no human can fight servants without magic comprised with what was said, I will have to stay neutral for now
Click to expand...
Well, you have Cu died in two car accident...
 
QuasiYuri said:
Well, you have Cu died in two car accident...
Click to expand...
Doesn't these two death are in the comical aspect?

But anyways even in the long past when servant was not that strong in physically/durability, Nasu tell that modern weapon that have more destructive power than them would still not do a thing to them


Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image.
 
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