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Exactly.
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See, we told you we were working on it! (Naruto Revision Part 1: Scaling)
- Thread starter LordTracer
- Start date
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We should get those approved then so we can decide what to do next
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- Thread starter
- #83
Yes, that’s going to happen at some point after this thread is done.
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That's the pressure of the attack. There's a difference.
The force of the attack is the initial slash, same with Ay's punch on Jugo, the initial punch.
As he keeps pushing, Ay's superior lifting strength is overpowering Suigetsu's (who's stressing his arms against Ay), causing his sword (and almost his arms) to break.
If it broke on the beginning, then they wouldn't scale. But the fact that they blocked a hit is the AP portion of it.
An example is this, Sasuke blocking a hit from Killer B, and this, Suigetsu blocking a hit from Killer B. They'd scale, but overtime this turns into a lifting strength battle instead of just the small blocks.
Or a better example is Kakashi's Raikiri against Pain. The Path took the attack from Kakashi easily, but as Kakashi pushes through the Pain, his lifting strength combined with the Raikiri's sharpness allows him to cut through.
It's a discussion of AP vs Lifting. They blocked his AP, but his lifting overpowered them.
Same as above
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I think what Tempest is getting at is force vs impulse, impulse being force integrated over a time.
Where the idea is, Jugo could briefly match the force of Ay's punch for a short time, but as time goes on Ay is able to keep up that same level of force, meanwhile Jugo isn't. For example, if Jugo's blocking force is decreasing with time, but Ay's punching force is staying the same (or at least decreasing at a slower rate than Jugo's) with time, then Ay would overpower Jugo given enough time.
To which, I believe there is some merit in Tempest's mention of AP vs Lifting.
However, on the flip side this case looks more like Ay pierced Jugo's flesh shield, but there was just enough flesh shield to stop the momentum of the punch from hitting Jugo's body. Which leads me to believe Jugo shouldn't scale to Ay.Idk if I'm late to this Jugo scaling discussion, but uhhhhhh
Where the idea is, Jugo could briefly match the force of Ay's punch for a short time, but as time goes on Ay is able to keep up that same level of force, meanwhile Jugo isn't. For example, if Jugo's blocking force is decreasing with time, but Ay's punching force is staying the same (or at least decreasing at a slower rate than Jugo's) with time, then Ay would overpower Jugo given enough time.
To which, I believe there is some merit in Tempest's mention of AP vs Lifting.
However, on the flip side this case looks more like Ay pierced Jugo's flesh shield, but there was just enough flesh shield to stop the momentum of the punch from hitting Jugo's body. Which leads me to believe Jugo shouldn't scale to Ay.
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Bruh, two calc members (Dargoo before he left, and Damage) accepted the High 7-A KE version of Kirin's recalc like, last year (The 2.6 gigaton end). I'd know, I helped out.
Sasuke's Kirin
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Idk lol, Damage told me wants to create a CGM thread for it because he has issues with it. I don't know what these issues are, but Tracer and I refrained from using the calc for the time being out of respect for him.Bruh, two calc members (Dargoo before he left, and Damage) accepted the High 7-A KE version of Kirin's recalc like, last year (The 2.6 gigaton end). I'd know, I helped out.
Sasuke's Kirin
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I don't necessarily have issues (maybe I do, will need to double-check) but common practice is that if a replacement calc is made or there are multiple versions of a calc, that a Calc Group Discussion thread is made to discuss which one should be used.
Sometimes a re-calc is so simple it doesn't justify a thread (like using a new canon height for a character instead of an assumed height) but most often I think a CGM thread is needed.
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Yeah, but that's the thing. I don't know of any other versions. There's Kep's old 2018 version, but it's wrong and outdated I believe.
Are there any other accepted calcs for Kirin?
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I've made a couple versions of it in the past. I'll see if I can dig them out and make a Calc Group thread as soon as this CRT is concluded (and when I get some time).
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Alrighty then, sounds like a plan.
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Wouldn’t Orochimaru scale to Sasori with the 3rd and to Rasa?
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- Thread starter
- #93
We have no idea how he killed Rasa, and I’m pretty sure that in the OVA, Oro fought Sasori’s Sandaime puppet with the Edo Sandaime himself, so…
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Yeah. The off-screen fight has too little information to judge off of.
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Rasa has unknown physicals, and due to the off-screen nature of their fight, it could've been a simple assassination.
Sasori doesn't scale to the 3rd Kazekage's Iron Sand physically for similar reasons.
Sasori doesn't scale to the 3rd Kazekage's Iron Sand physically for similar reasons.
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Ok that's fair
nah
And he says he held back and implied that he would've beaten him if he was actually serious
Plus he took an almighty push so...
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- Thread starter
- #97
Oh, you’re referring to that. That fight was off-screen, and when we cut to the aftermath, Oro is face down on the ground and the Sandaime puppet is unscathed. Sure, he said he wasn’t fighting seriously, but there’s nothing that implies Sasori used the Iron Sand during that fight, nor that Orochimaru could damage it. And Pain is usually 7-B, so…
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Yeah, this version of Pain was at a completely unknown distance from Nagato, so gauging his power output at the time is kinda impossible.
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Alright that works then.
We can tell by the size of the Shinra Tensei explosion that he's far superior, but meh
Sorry that I'm asking a bunch of questions, I just don't feel right with the sannin scaling that low compared to the kage. Personal issue though
Alongside that, you'd need to specify in these links below
UchihaSlayer96/106 cm
vsbattles.fandom.com
UchihaSlayer96/Pervy Sage
vsbattles.fandom.com
UchihaSlayer96/Morbid Hoe
vsbattles.fandom.com
With this statement
Saying this most likely means in Konoha.
Because if this works for the verse in general, then the Kage'd scale below them as well, making the Sannin up there as well
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Another issue of mine is base Naruto (no not the BOShippuden one, I'm not here to make his scaling complicated as usual), but the one post Pain fight.
I don't have an issue with his SM being above Jiraiya (yes I do but idm right now), but base Naruto? Nah.
The first statement is stated while he's in SM. And the second is... well, fair, but my issue lies in the reasoning.
All the context of a superior Sage Mode. He learned faster than Jiraiya, better Sage Mode than Jiraiya (stated that he's exceeded Jiraiya in SM), etc. Jiraiya was known for his shit sage mode, so I'm unwise if this refers to power. And the fact that we elaborate on a similar case like this for Hiruzen
I'm sketchy with letting this (for base Naruto) slide.
And with this logic, Jiraiya would lose to the likes of all the fodder that post Pain Naruto matched, like the Kumogakure fodder
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You're right. It's not like Konoha could go around asking other Village's leaders to help them out, so I think it's just referring to Konoha as well.
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- Thread starter
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There’s a note at the bottom of his page explaining why we’re using it for base and Sage Mode. And as for the second statement, yes Jiraiya had an imperfect Sage Mode, but unless I’m missing something, there isn’t actually anything that says Imperfect Sage Mode is innately weaker than Perfect Sage Mode, in terms of strength.
If you mean Karui, Naruto literally just stood there and let her punch him. He even said that he was choosing to get beaten up, i.e. he wasn’t trying to defend himself at all. I wouldn’t exactly call that an anti-feat.
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Being superior to the 7-B version that fodderized Kakashi would still be 7-B without any further feats to back it up, which would be perfectly inline with the Sannin being "At least 7-B (33 megatons)" and massively upscaling other 7-Bs like Kakashi who're sitting at 9.93 megatons.
They have ass feats and scaling for the most part, so...
It's not like we scale them that low because we dislike them. Tsunade and Jiraiya are literally top 5 favorite characters for me.
Actually, I wanted to remove that statement altogether because it's kinda irrelevant. Like, yeah, the Sannin can defeat each other under different circumstances (like Orochimaru defeating Jiraiya, or Tsunade beating them up at different points), but the statement is kinda irrelevant for scaling tbh. And creates some confusion with its NLF nature, like you said.Alongside that, you'd need to specify in these links below
UchihaSlayer96/106 cm
UchihaSlayer96/Pervy Sage
UchihaSlayer96/Morbid Hoe
With this statement
Saying this most likely means in Konoha.
Because if this works for the verse in general, then the Kage'd scale below them as well, making the Sannin up there as well
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jiraiya is bad at collecting and maintaining Nature Energy, which is why he requires Ma and Pa's help; however, there is no proof that their Sage Mode offers different amps. Minato is supposedly "terrible" at it by his own admission, yet he has the same mastery level as Naruto more or less, and he's included in the "surpassed your predecessors" statement, so yeah.
Unless you can bring proof that Naruto's Sage Mode offers a bigger amp, this point is moot.
Hmmmm.
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The issue with this is the mechanics behind Sage Mode.
Naruto has more chakra than both of them, which means that he gains more Senjutsu Chakra than both of them, making him superior.
Also, this... is weird. It contradicts Jiraiya's scaling for SM
Jiraiya fought a stronger Pain than Naruto did, fought less Pains than Naruto did (which means his power was focused into less Pains), and would've beaten him? Yet the Pain we see in Konoha is weakened from several different causes... and Naruto is stronger... when he's struggling with a weaker one?
Another thing, with the Rain calc, the calc is valid and I have no issues with it scaling to the cast, but that was done while 1 Pain was active (at least that we know about). Shouldn't this be split by 3 since there were more than 1 Pain?
Her teammate, who blocked an elbow from Naruto.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
- 6,000
Well Naruto hold back except he is actively trying to knock someone out, in this place he was told back cause I'm sure naruto likely one shots karui in a serious fight
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Fair
Nah I understand completely, it's just unfortunate. Oh well
Gotcha
Brought it up above. More senjutsu chakra = higher amp. Jiraiya can't make the most of his senjutsu chakra since some of the nature energy goes into turning him into a toad, while Naruto makes the most of his senjutsu chakra and gets that perfect sage mode. Minato'd apply as well on the positive side of the spectrum, he gets the good SM but he just can't maintain it well.
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I'll try to reply to the Jiraiya situation in a bit.
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Serious fight with Ninjutsu, Senjutsu, more clones and more? Naruto bodies.
With their base forms? Naruto really hasn't shown to be a super strong (physically) guy (imo). With the likes of Omoi, who needed help just to beat no-Kazekage Sasori and a casual Deidara, idk
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- Thread starter
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Could you post the scan of this, I don’t remember this being a thing tbh.
Ah. Tbf Omoi isn’t exactly fodder, since he’s at least relative to Sakura, but I’m low-key inclined to consider this an outlier (or Naruto just being casual) since Naruto could match Taka Sasuke, who’s another 33.10 megatons character. Also the way Omoi blocked and how Naruto seamlessly went into the Shadow Clone jutsu afterwards, something about it seems iffy, but that’s probably just me.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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Well true, but a casual deidara would kill omoi or karui easily too.
I don't see a reason why naruto would be using his full strength in a somewhat friendly skirmish.
But yes I support your notion, base naruto is not exactly above base jiraiya
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Fukusaku was demonstrating Nature Energy amps to Naruto. As he was building his chakra up, he said "this should be good enough" insinuating he could've taken more and gotten stronger, a direct showing of more Senjutsu Chakra = being stronger. Brought up again with Tayuya (uses Senjutsu chakra), when she uses more Senjutsu chakra, she gets stronger.
Naruto has more chakra than Minato and Jiraiya based on his portrayals of chakra amounts and his clan heritage.
Since Naruto was young he made ridiculous amounts of chakra (Chapter 90)
Naruto balanced the chakra better than Jiraiya, and he used more chakra than Jiraiya (especially with Rasenshuriken), which means he has a superior amp.
I'd take that as an outlier in itself, since that Sasuke was matching Kakashi, who was apparently getting flipped on by Pain, who (while stronger) Naruto matched in Taijutsu.
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Noooooooooooo. No, no, no, no, no.
Sasuke was tanking hits from Kakashi with no problem, they weren’t matching each other. Hell, Sasuke literally laughed off a kick from Kakashi (483). And this was Kakashi with the MS, meaning he’d be stronger than he was against Pain. Naruto was also able to restrain MS Kakashi immediately before clashing with Sasuke, with Sasuke saying “I’m not holding back,” low-key implying that he was beforehand.
Slayer said he had something to say about the Jiraiya stuff so if you don’t mind, I’ll leave that to him.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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No it does not imply he was holding back prior, it just means he actually wants to kill naruto here badly
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- #114
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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He was literally matching Takashi and went full on Susanoo from the on set and was kicked away.
And when he said that like ins and already he was saying now is his chance to kill naruto he won't hold back and would go for the kill
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Bro nah, real talk. It actually hurts me. Believe me, I've looked for every valid avenue to juice the Sannin. I absolutely adore them as characters, so don't think for a second that I would willingly downplay them. Tsunade has some avenues that may or may not upgrade her, and I'm planning to bring them up in the upcoming Bijuu revision, but tbf they're extremely iffy and I doubt they'll get accepted. Orochimaru has some options as well for some of his forms potentially, but not for his base form in Part 1 I'm afraid.
Jiraiya on the other hand has it the worst out of the 3. He has practically no AP feats in base. People always claim that he's strong as ****, but the man literally has not one decent physical feat lol. The only thing that's there is the Itachi statement, and it has a slew of issues. He's not even really as strong as the other two. Like, Tsunade almost crippled him, and Orochimaru already beat him, and he only got stronger after that. I was extremely disappointed by Jiraiya's lack of feats because I genuinely love him to death. Orochimaru at least has the baseline of being FAR stronger than Kakashi, and being stronger than all Jonin in Konoha. Jiraiaya doesn't even have that going for him unless you just outright scale him to Oro because "He's a Sannin" and because he's been stated to be comparable to him.
Sorry for the rant lol, but believe me when I say, I'm as frustrated as you are.
I'll change the wording later and let you know.
Yeah, but there's no statement about Naruto absorbing more senjutsu chakra than Jiraiya, only comparison ever made is that he absorbs more than he did with the training oil.
Well, this isn't quite the case. Jiraiya is normally ass at collecting and maintaining Senjutsu chakra, true, but that's precisely why Ma and Pa do that job for him. His Sage Mode lasts far longer than Naruto, or rather, it lasts indefinitely as long as he's fused with the Sage Toads. He doesn't really have any issues with collecting or maintaining senjutsu chakra because he doesn't actually have to. And even then, this is only pertaining to collecting and maintaining it, but no mention is ever made or even implied about there being a difference in power there.
I mean, Naruto's never been stated to have more chakra than either Minato or Jiraiya. In fact, it's been stated that both Naruto and Jiraiya are able to learn SM due to enormous chakra reserves, and I'd assume the same would apply to Minato as well.
Also, like, if base Naruto did indeed have more chakra than both of them, wouldn't that support him being stronger anyway? By this point in the story, his chakra control isn't as horrible as it used to be after all.
A bit of the context here is missing tbh.
Jiraiya fought a stronger Pain, yes, but it's not like he fought the strongest ones. He didn't have to deal with the Deva Path. He was faced up against the Animal Path, the Human Path, and the Preta Path, and he thought they were going to kill him. This is why he came up with the plan to put them all under genjutsu. After the Six emerged, meaning that they became even weaker due to chakra distribution, he was quickly overpowered and driven into a corner.
Now I know what you're thinking, Pain said Jiraiya would've won had he known the Rinnegan's secrets. But I don't believe this is entirely an AP thing, it most cetainly isn't when some of the support paths like the Human and Animal Paths can contend with him physically, and when the Asura Path easily ripped off his arm. And before you go pulling the "he was off-guard" argument, that really shouldn't matter in Sage Mode all that much because his durability is always heightened passively, as we saw with Naruto when he fell off the training board and had no idea how durable he actually was until he took the fall.
The statement is most likely hinting towards Jiraiya making better strategies with his potential knowledge of their abilities in mind, which could have probably led to his victory. For instance, had he known about there being 6 Pains, he would've probably saved his Genjutsu for a more opportune time and caught them all in it potentially. And considering how versatile and intelligent Jiraiya actually is, he probably had other options as well.
Now let's move on to Naruto. Yeah, "he lost to a weaker Pain, with Prep and prior knowledge on his side", but it's not quite so simple.
When Pain was at his absolute weakest, with 6 bodies active and with the Deva Path still depowered, Naruto was absolutely dominating Pain without any issues whatsoever. He was demolishing the Pains casually, and had a very apparent AP adavantage. He was even able to swap hands with the Deva Path in base when less bodies were active.
But as Pain's numbers dwindled, he was slowly getting stronger and stronger, and it all culminated when the Deva Path's power returned. That's when Naruto actually lost. He lost to the Deva Path, the others were dispatched of quite easily, even when only 3 of them were left. But the Solo Deva Path solo'd him due to his overwhelming abilities.
Now in case you didn't notice, Jiraiya never had to deal with the Deva Path or his abilities, but Naruto did. So the whole "Jiraiaya could've beaten a stronger Pain while Naruto lost to a weaker one" isn't untrue, but it has some complicated context that CANNOT be left out.
The thing is that this is an extremely causal feat. Nagato performs this Jutsu casually every Sunday and maintains it for hours on end at the very least, if not days using his chakra. Compared to his other techniques like Shinra Tensei that he can't even spam freely, I'd say it should definitely scale below them. Now I do agree that it should scale to High-End Pain only (So Pain in Amekagure and in Konoha with 3 bodies or less acitve). The fact that it's consistent with Shira Tensei obliterating Naruto's FRS (1.56 GT) is just icing on the cake for the consistency.
Also, I don't believe we can just apply chakra distribution for Pain linearly like that anyway, since not all Pains are exactly equal at all times. Some are usually stronger than others, such as the Deva Path always having the best durability feats out of the bunch.
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- Thread starter
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No he wasn’t lmao, he took both of Kakashi’s hits with no damage, where are y’all getting him “matching” Kakashi from?
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Btw, if I don't reply to any of ya'll soon, it probably means I slept lol.
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Link?
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You want the Kirin calc?
Here ya go.
If you're asking about the CGM thread, it hasn't been made yet.
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