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Majestic attire > ETSO, LoJ, SPCT
Naruto at full power > a very small portion of Narutos power -> LoJ
We absolutely do have a reason to scale them to it with their avatars.
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Sealing Away Naruto's 5-B in a Chibaku Tensei
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Naruto at full power > a very small portion of Narutos power -> LoJ
We absolutely do have a reason to scale them to it with their avatars.
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He isn't. That's how it works.
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I said that because I listed the reasons twice already nobody gave any counter arguments, and just basically went "nuh uh".
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I don't care about the spct but what I'm just confused is why a full powered naruto won't scale to LOJ when a small portion of his chakra is literally just what LOJ is
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What is the basis for saying Toneri was only using Naruto's chakra for that? As opposed to, you know, his own chakra and the power of Hamura's chakra via all the Byakugan he's absorbed plus what he absorbed from Naruto.
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I could have sworn my particular line of reasoning is majorly why hinata was downgraded from 5b in the first place. But gimme some minutes let me gather evidence
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Alright I just rewatched the movie to make sure I wasn't wrong or misinterpreting .
1. You said he he may have been using his own chakra or hamura chakra via the Byakugan and this is wrong. Toneri was basically out of coming after the tenseigan was removed, he could barely move so using his chakra is out of it. Not like he has such power in the first place. For the Byakugan that wasn't what he used it for. He used the power of the Byakugan to revive his golem. When he got the Byakugan he specifically says "puppet rebirth" and brought the golem back. But kurama completely destroyed it. Naruto and hinata then told him to stop that he has lost already. It was at this point he brought out his chakra absorption orb and used it to suck naruto BSM. When the orb sucks chakra we visibly see the chakra as it is drained and at no point did we see a drain from the Byakugan . So not only did he not bring out the orb until he wanted naruto chakra, we never see it suck chakra from any source left asides from naruto.
2. If you look at when toneri is about to activate it, just take a look at the green orb. You would see naruto orange chakra showing glaringly as what is about to detonate off completely. So it was just naruto chakra, and considering the first time toneri used something like this all it did was turn naruto chakra into an explosion I see no reason to think otherwise.
It is for the reason I believe that if a small portion of naruto chakra was going to destroy the earth even though chakra amp is not linear it would still make sense that a fully powered naruto should at least scale to this since it was a small portion of his chakra alone
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Obviously it wouldn't drain it from the Byakugan; Toneri has already fused with the Byakugan.
What makes you say he only used the Bygakugan for that and not anything else?
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I'm assuming you're referring to the guidebook statements that go like "strongest offense and defense!" and "strongest Ninjutsu!", right? Thing is, there's zero proof that these statements are referring to every Jutsu there ever was. It's more than likely simply stating that the MAS is just Naruto and Sasuke's strongest technique, which makes sense, of course. It is them combining their full power, after all. We've also seen it in action, and it allowed them to stomp the Lava Monkey, which was previously giving the Kurama Avatar a hard time. But nothing really indicates that these statements are referring to every technique there ever was. And as such, we can't go with that higher end interpretation without there being sufficient proof for it. When we're faced with a lack of evidence for something, we always defer to the safest interpretation.
As for your argument about the LoJ being a small portion of Naruto's chakra, I'm not so sure about that simply because there's the unknown variable of Toneri in play. Toneri was there, he had absorbed a countless number of the Byakugan, which had comprised Hamura's Tenseigan. It's not like you can say with certainty exactly how much of the LoJ Naruto's chakra was responsible for. If you can prove that much, I think it'll be a discussion we can have for at least Kurama Avatar Naruto since we know that's Naruto "using all of his power/going all out". We also know that his concentrated punch against Toneri was him using "everything he had", so yeah.
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The orb is an external object is it not? Regardless if you are infusing chakra into something even if it is yours it is always shown. Especially large scale stuff like that. Not to mention the chakra shown from toneri with the Byakugan is I think blue like hinata own. That colour of chakra is not shown in the orb. What we still see when he launches the attack is orange chakra. If he really assimilated naruto chakra and added his the chakra colour would change to his own. That's how it is normally shown in naruto everytime chakra is absorbed.
So it makes more sense to say what we were shown is what was done. You're giving a different interpretation that has little to no proof
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That's the thing. Toneri user the Byakugan to activate the golem. And his chakra colour was blue then. We see the orb absorb nothing else but naruto orange BSM. Even at the point of detonation the chakra inside the green orb was clearly orange. If he assimilated and combined chakra you and I know it won't retain it's colour.
And considering kurama was literally out of him even if y'all decide to count the 8 tails kurama as invalid for naruto having 1 tail worth of chakra. Fine we can still agree he at least had his power halved at the start. Not to mention he used a ton more the entire fight for all his justu and even putting almost all his chakra for toneri attack.
So what toneri absorbed was significantly smaller than half. And even after toneri absorbed what he absorbed like 45 seconds later naruto jumped right back to the mode. So what he absorbed was even much more less.
I see no reason to say a fully powered BSM naruto won't scale
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Uchussy Slussy FRA
For the generalized claim to be made with less assumptions, you would have to discard the surrounding context of the statement and just assume the wording at face value. Which would be incorrect and faulty since the statement isn't made without context, there's specific things about this statement that needs to be accounted for.
Yeah, here's the scan he's talking about. I can understand the argument when viewing these statements without context since the wording used is incredibly generalized, with it using wording like "ninjutsu" or "strongest offense and defense." The issue with asserting a generalized conclusion however is the fact the context behind these statements are about discussing the capabilities of both Sasuke and Naruto. It's specifically talking about the "legend" of both characters while explaining their capabilities. When it uses wording like "strongest offense and defense" and "strongest ninjutsu," it's talking about the combination of their strongest forms, which would of course create the strongest offense and defense ninjutsu they have. It's the strongest shinobi using their strongest techniques in conjunction with each other, and we know throughout the series combining ninjutsu together increases their potency.
For the generalized claim to be made with less assumptions, you would have to discard the surrounding context of the statement and just assume the wording at face value. Which would be incorrect and faulty since the statement isn't made without context, there's specific things about this statement that needs to be accounted for.
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@karo_senpaii You keep double-posting.
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Some of the flowery language used in naruto are ridiculous. Sasuke rinnengan transcending dimensions? Really?
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Sorry it's a skill issue. I'd learn
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Oh I thought you were talking about Momo and Kaguya since you mentioned that above. Sorry, I just woke up when I wrote that and had no brainpower to mentally remember which reply leads to which comment.
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Couldn't have said it any better.
Yes, but at the moment when he was using the LoJ, he had fused with all of the Byakugan, and was already clearly overloaded with their power. I see no reason to assume that they would not empower him, nor that he wouldn't use his own power in the LoJ orb. It having a different coloration after absorbing Naruto's chakra really doesn't change much.
I don't think the 8/1 tail split thing makes much sense, nor do I find it very reliable tbh. First off, I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense for Naruto to release most of his power to fight the golem, while only keeping a small portion for himself to fight the dude who's literally powering said golem. That just does not compute for me.
Additionally, tail scaling is extremely inconsistent imo. For example, V1s and V2s can have similar number of tails, but still have variances in their strength. Hell, a V2 can have different number of tails, or even the same number of tails as a full bijuu, but still vary in power. Without the exact knowledge of how much chakra Naruto allocated to the Kurama Avatar he sent out, we just cannot possibly say for sure. It could be half, could be less, could be more; we just don't know.
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If im being completely honest, the "context" of the scan that you guys (Deceived, Slayer, etc.) are claiming to specifically refer to their kits and only their kits isn't there.
Now I'm not sure how accurate these translations are, but seeing how we're using them: the actual guidebook, or whatever it is, isn't just referring to their kits, but it's also referring to their status within the Ninja world as the strongest.
Right after they introduce Naruto as the 7th Hokage, they refer to Naruto as the strongest in the Ninja World. With this sentence, we're already made aware that it's not just talking about Naruto and Sasuke's kit, but their strength, power, status and position in the Shinobi World.
"Producing a god of war with the strongest offense and defense".
In this quote, I bolded and italicized "a God of war" because it's important. It's important because it highlights their status compared to everyone and everything else, as god of war is a title. Prior to this the scan already implies Naruto IS the strongest, and with MAS they become a God of war with the strongest of and def.
Saying that it's only referring to their kits, IMO, robs the context of the databook, because it's NOT just about their kits but also about their status in the world.
Hell, in that same scan, Sasuke is praised for having the strongest Doujutsu, due to the Rinnegan. The databook isn't saying "compared to his Sharingan eye, the Rinnegan hails the strongest", it's saying that his Rinnegan is THE strongest Doujutsu, comparing it to everything there ever was. Which the Wiki already accepts IIRC.
But honestly, this is all neither here nor there, since I don't particularly care about the topic
Now I'm not sure how accurate these translations are, but seeing how we're using them: the actual guidebook, or whatever it is, isn't just referring to their kits, but it's also referring to their status within the Ninja world as the strongest.
Right after they introduce Naruto as the 7th Hokage, they refer to Naruto as the strongest in the Ninja World. With this sentence, we're already made aware that it's not just talking about Naruto and Sasuke's kit, but their strength, power, status and position in the Shinobi World.
"Producing a god of war with the strongest offense and defense".
In this quote, I bolded and italicized "a God of war" because it's important. It's important because it highlights their status compared to everyone and everything else, as god of war is a title. Prior to this the scan already implies Naruto IS the strongest, and with MAS they become a God of war with the strongest of and def.
Saying that it's only referring to their kits, IMO, robs the context of the databook, because it's NOT just about their kits but also about their status in the world.
Hell, in that same scan, Sasuke is praised for having the strongest Doujutsu, due to the Rinnegan. The databook isn't saying "compared to his Sharingan eye, the Rinnegan hails the strongest", it's saying that his Rinnegan is THE strongest Doujutsu, comparing it to everything there ever was. Which the Wiki already accepts IIRC.
But honestly, this is all neither here nor there, since I don't particularly care about the topic
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Nobody said that these statements are completely disconnected from the setting. We know, from this scan as well as various other statements, that Naruto and Sasuke are without a shadow of a doubt the strongest Shinobi in the world. This is a fact. So naturally, their strongest technique will also be implicitly assumed to be the strongest technique in the entire world, at least one that's performed by Shinobi or some known entity within the Shinobi world. But I do not see how anything said within that scan implies in any way that it is the strongest technique of all time. Naruto and Sasuke being the strongest in the ninja world RIGHT NOW does not mean that they're the strongest of all time.
Mind you, I'm not saying they aren't either, I don't care about that particular debate rn. But there is no statement placing them as the strongest ever, and this scan is no different as far as I'm concerned.
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Neither me or Slayer have actually made the claim of the statements only referring to their kit. It's just that we believe there's more evidence supporting the interpretation that it's mostly referring to their kit instead of the opposite. Hell, I specifically stated when dealing with claims without concrete evidence, we should abide by what's most likely, hence why I used wording like "less assumptions" when talking about this situation.
As for the statements being encompassing instead of purely just talking about Naruto and Sasuke's kit. I don't disagree with you, as that wasn't the actual claim made against the statements. We all agree that Sasuke and Naruto are considered the strongest, current shinobi when compared to everyone else. We agree that when they combine their strongest ninjutsu, it creates the strongest ninjutsu in the world. The issue we're having with these statements is that people are arguing it's stating MAS is the strongest ninjutsu throughout history, not just speaking about what's currently the strongest ninjutsu. People are using this statement to scale things like the SPCT or Loj below this despite the fact both techniques aren't currently usable. It's a false comparison that's happening when people make this argument, which is where the problem lies.
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fair enough. like I said idrc to argue further (plus I just got to work so.. I cant). doesn't look like it's gonna get accepted regardless so it's not really worth it anyhow. just wanted to share my thoughts on it
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I already explained that he used the Byakugan power to reactivate the golem. And I didn't say the colour changed. I said at the point where toneri was about to detonate light of justice if you look at the orb all you can see is bright orange chakra indicating that it was indeed naruto chakra powering the orb. Even if you say he got some power from the Byakugan that alone shows the significant portion was from naruto.
As for the 8 tails. Remember first of all that naruto has the second half of kurama now and and 1 tails of chakra is unquantifiably stronger than we know it. Also don't forget that naruto has sage of six path chakra which amps all his forms regardless including his base. I think he just felt it necessary to go after the golem as prior that time toneri was not there and he was not even in tenseigan mode. He instinctively called kurama to attack and was even visibly worried when kurama was falling almost out of the moon.
And I didn't argue naruto was at 1/9th his power. All I said is that he was using 1 tails worth of chakra. Now how much fraction is that? We can't really tell coz as you know it is not linear. But we can deduce that clearly that is a small portion of his power
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You're basically saying "there's no proof the statement isn't limited to themselves" which makes no sense. We use statements like "strongest genjutsu" and "ultimate genjutsu" as evidence of said genjutsus being > every other genjutsu introduced so far and this is basically the same statement.
It's literally called "The strongest ninjutsu". We literally use the same evidence for and Shisuis genjutsu. Safest interpretation would be that the strongest ninjutsu is the strongest ninjutsu, anything else creates additional assumptions for no reason.
Toneri specifically absorbs the chakra into the ball which he later calls "the light of justice". We only see Narutos chakra go into the ball.
Anyway yall are posting too fast for me so I give up
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We use statements like "strongest genjutsu" or "ultimate technique" as far as the context of those statements provides us. We don't inherently assume something being stated the strongest "x", is the strongest "x" throughout the history of "x". That's a claim which requires a higher preponderance of evidence to assert more true compared to lesser evidential stressed claims like it's "contextually dependent" or "only references a specific period of time." The onus would be on you to prove the statements are referencing the entire shown history of Ninjutsu first, before making any claims about if this Ninjutsu is the strongest in its history or not.
This is a false equivalence as Shisui's statement is made while under the context of being the strongest Genjutsu someone with a Mangekyou Sharingan could possibly use. It isn't stating it's the strongest Genjutsu throughout history or anything of the sort; it's specifically contextualized to be referencing Mangekyou Sharingan Genjutsu and that's it. It's why we don't assume Koto is above something like the Infinite Tsukuyomi for example.
The statement made about MAS being the strongest Ninjutsu doesn't have that surrounding context, the context that's given is talking about the current setting, about the current strongest people and their capabilities. It doesn't make a generalized claim of Ninjutsu history or contextualize it to the entirety of Ninjutsu. It just makes the claim this ability is the strongest, which is made while discussing the current setting, with the current strongest people and their current strongest abilities.
Like stated above, you need actual evidence that supports the statement being generalized to that degree; which hasn't been provided yet. So, until then we can't assume it's talking about every Ninjutsu shown throughout time.
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Deceived basically stole the words out my Cheetos-filled fingers here.
Kotoamatsukami is one of the worst examples you could've picked here. We know the exact context behind the Koto thing, which is that it's the most powerful MS genjutsu. There's also feats and implications to back up the statements. Very different situation.
Kotoamatsukami is one of the worst examples you could've picked here. We know the exact context behind the Koto thing, which is that it's the most powerful MS genjutsu. There's also feats and implications to back up the statements. Very different situation.
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If we want to take the statement “strongest ninjutsu” more generally we wouldn’t apply it as “strongest ninjutsu of all time”. We would apply it as the “strongest ninjutsu of the period of time when the statement was made”. Meaning that in the Momoshiki arc the strongest ninjutsu available was the MA. No one present in that arc has any 5-B ninjutsu for MA to scale above. Just like we don’t take the “strongest enemy” statement of Toneri to mean “strongest enemy of all time” but rather take it as “strongest enemy of the period of time when the statement was made” aka during the events of the Last.
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I haven't seen the new arguments, so what's the current debate about?
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Whether or not Majestic Attire Susano’o should scale above stuff like Light of Justice, ETSO, and/or the SPCT (aka the 5-B techniques)
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You can look over some of the points I made. Specifically for LOJ
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So I was chatting up with some people and the Light of Justice being 5-B might just be bunk/wrong. The statements can be found here, which I used to argue that Toneri was likening the Light of Justice to the SPCT that Hamura helped make and would thus be 5-B. However, it is far more likely that when Toneri says "Hamura's power that can move the moon" is referring to Hamura's Tenseigan (which is Hamura's power) that was moving the moon during the movie (calc'd to 5-C+). Meaning that Toneri isn't equating his Light of Justice to the SPCT but rather to Hamura's Tenseigan, which given the context in the movie is the much more probable conclusion. A 5-C+ attack would absolute deal massive damage to the planet as well, and given that for "destroy the world" statements they can mean something as low as High 6-A, 5-C+ attacks would absolutely destroy the world.
TLDR; The Light of Justice should be 5-C+ not 5-B.
TLDR; The Light of Justice should be 5-C+ not 5-B.
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I'd also like to add that the "total planetary annhilation" statement doesn't even work in this instance since it's referring to his initial plan to ram countless meteors into the earth, life wipe it, and then terraform it later back into a habitable planet. So he did not plan to completely wipe out the planet in its entirely.
Anyway, yeah, I fully agree with this interpretation. I think it makes far more sense as we've already discussed in private.
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Yeah, that much makes sense to me.
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Well, with that being said, I now fully disagree with any 5-B scaling of any kind. The LoJ thing had potential, but now that It's bunk, I see no real solid avenue for 5-B scaling.
I'll comment on the sandbox itself soon.
I'll comment on the sandbox itself soon.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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The only stuff that is complete is the Shippuden and The Last stuff fyi
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Yeah, I know. Don't worry.
KaydeeX
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Why is this so?
The Tenseigan moon calc isn't supposed to be treated as a limit. After all both instances are "Hamura power"
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