Shadow of the Rabbit Goddess

[Damage3245]

is the current contention whether or not Kaguya can create normal TSO?

That's one of the contentions; the other being that just because she opted not to use them doesn't mean the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist automatically scales above them in AP and therefore we can assume the AP of those attacks would scale above the energy she is putting into the ETSO.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It's not in contention if you straight up dropped arguing against the idea

 

[Godernet]

I don't believe Kaguya being able to use normal TSO is contentious at all personally considering:

• Obito and Madara got access to creating them instantly after becoming the Juubi Jin.
• Compositionally all they are is a combination of 7 chakra natures condensed into a chakra ball with Six Paths Senjutsu, which we know Kaguya has access to via her databook and possession of the Juubi for SPC.
• The only Six Path Senjutsu user who had TSO but didn't show the ability to create a new TSO was Naruto who was also the only one who was not an actual Juubi Jin.
• She actually made one via ETSO, it's not like the IT Chakra provided her with new knowledge or new abilities, it was just raw chakra stolen from regular Shinobi, the conscious choice to manifest that into a TSO was still Kaguya's, Zetsu's matter of fact tone when describing ETSO further supports that.

I do however agree that EGVF doesn't have to scale above TSO in AP just because she chose to use one over the other.

Combat, especially in a series like Nard, isn't so linear that abilities are only used or avoided because of AP values.

SPSM Naruto chose to try sexy jutsu before TSO, TBB, or Rasenshuriken on Kaguya.

I don't think there's enough evidence either way tbh

tho I will say that EGVF is probably easier to use than a TSO, given we never see anyone with too much more than a half dozen TSO at a time but Kaguya can spam Vaccum Fist for barrages and omnidirectional attacks when paired with her Byakugan Vision.

And when she's not using EGVF she's using AKAB, a jutsu that's way more suited to use against Six Paths characters than TSO are, since it decons them regardless of their Six Path resistances unlike a TSO, and is also a jutsu that she can seemingly just keep spamming like EGVF.

This isn't even to mention that TSO are inherently ass after they travel a certain range because the user loses some control of their maneuverability.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't believe Kaguya being able to use normal TSO is contentious at all personally considering:

• Obito and Madara got access to creating them instantly after becoming the Juubi Jin.
• Compositionally all they are is a combination of 7 chakra natures condensed into a chakra ball with Six Paths Senjutsu, which we know Kaguya has access to via her databook and possession of the Juubi for SPC.
• The only Six Path Senjutsu user who had TSO but didn't show the ability to create a new TSO was Naruto who was also the only one who was not an actual Juubi Jin.
• She actually made one via ETSO, it's not like the IT Chakra provided her with new knowledge or new abilities, it was just raw chakra stolen from regular Shinobi, the conscious choice to manifest that into a TSO was still Kaguya's, Zetsu's matter of fact tone when describing ETSO further supports that.

I do however agree that EGVF doesn't have to scale above TSO in AP just because she chose to use one over the other.

Combat, especially in a series like Nard, isn't so linear that abilities are only used or avoided because of AP values.

SPSM Naruto chose to try sexy jutsu before TSO, TBB, or Rasenshuriken on Kaguya.

I don't think there's enough evidence either way tbh

tho I will say that EGVF is probably easier to use than a TSO, given we never see anyone with too much more than a half dozen TSO at a time but Kaguya can spam Vaccum Fist for barrages, omnidirectional attacks when paired with her Byakugan Vision.

And when she's not using EGVF she's using AKAB, a jutsu that's way more suited to use against Six Paths characters than TSO are, since it decons them regardless of their resistances unlike a TSO, and is also a jutsu that she can seemingly just keep spamming like EGVF.

This isn't even to mention that TSO are inherently ass after they travel a certain range because the user loses some control of their maneuverability.

The sexy jutsu argument is so disingenuous
That serves an advantage by distracting her

The EGVF can’t be benefitting you in anything but AP, the TSO are something kaguya can make one per second for 15 years straight, it’s far more abundant compared to something that’s the only jutsu in the series that’s exclusive to Kaguya’s chakra control

Madara closed himself off in a TSO spheric shield, thats genuine omnidirectional defense as opposed to the non existent one for EGVF, all the advantages you listed for EGVF exist for the TSO in greater qualities because Byakugan does not solely benefit the fists


Also her preference isn’t the sole reason why I said EGVFs are > TSO

Spoiler

Where as instead of splitting up the chakra the EGVF can redirect ALL the chakra into brute strength to amplify attack potency to the highest possible level allowing her to launch powerful fists and bombarding her foes into oblivion
the EGVF dwarves other Jutsu when it comes to chakra output, it’s the superior version of the 8 trigrams attack, both jutsu function by pouring in chakra into the palm but the EGVF’s sheer grandiose level of chakra tiers it massively and far beyond the Jutsu resulting in requirement of chakra mastery of the highest order which was stated to be possessed only by Kaguya, it is stated in a literal way that ONLY Kaguya can perform this jutsu due to having what I said before, juubito juubidara naruto hagormo all casually master truth seeker orb usage but no one in the verse is able to perform this fist Jutsu but Kaguya thanks to the supernatural chakra that she dominates and no other jutsu have this specific requirement, that limits it to Kaguya.

 

[Kachon123]

The sexy jutsu argument is so disingenuous
That serves an advantage by distracting her

Pretty sure Godernet wasn't legitimately arguing that as it had a strikethrough.

 

[Godernet]

The sexy jutsu argument is so disingenuous

I crossed it out for a reason, that was a joke.

The EGVF can’t be benefitting you in anything but AP,

It's more that the TSO lacks benefits compared to EGVF and AKAB.

If you can't use the hax aspect of TSO they quite literally become worse Rasengans/Mini TBBs.

like what's more useful in combat, a giant chakra fist that you can build momentum with the swing of your hands and spam or a black ball of energy that you lose control over if it flies more than 70 meters away from you, and only really seems to apply AP by exploding.

if she has to fight from a range, they're worthless in this fight, if its close combat it would be easier to just punch them in the face with giant fists that tear apart Susano'o like paper.

the TSO are something kaguya can make one per second for 15 years straight,

what?

ykw if I have time later I'll argue why that's not the case but I'm touching getting into that one tonight lol

Also her preference isn’t the sole reason why I said EGVFs are > TSO

I'm not saying it was, just that I don't agree with that reasoning specifically since it was the one brought up.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It's more that the TSO lacks benefits compared to EGVF and AKAB.

If you can't use the hax aspect of TSO they quite literally become worse Rasengans/Mini TBBs.

I know, which is why I said the latter two benefit her by stats and duraneg

like what's more useful in combat, a giant chakra fist that you can build momentum with the swing of your hands and spam or a black ball of energy that you lose control over if it flies more than 70 meters away from you, and only really seems to apply AP by exploding.

You can shape the TSO to your liking and do the exact same action sequence

it's funny you bring up range because they're listed as follows

TSO - All Ranges
EGVF - Close to Mid Range

It also doesn't apply AP by exploding, it can be used as a staff or normal weaponry, explosions and more, it's far more versatile as she can also easily defend herself using byakugan to make a 360 degree TSO sphere shield, assuming you believe egvf has worse stats this would mean the TSO can protect her better, so it would be a much better thing to apply.....but she does not because it's just not strong enough compared to something that's unlocked by exclusive chakra control

if she has to fight from a range, they're worthless in this fight, if its close combat it would be easier to just punch them in the face with giant fists that tear apart Susano'o like paper.

Uh huh yeah no, a TSO (if it was stronger in AP) to the face would be far more effective than those heavy chakra fists which would slow down the overall attack
If TSO were truly stronger she can deadass shape it into fists and do the same thing to the susano and have a much easier time shattering the Susano

what?

ykw if I have time later I'll argue why that's not the case but I'm touching getting into that one tonight lol

if it's stronger you don't need to spam it, you'd just one shot the enemy in one go without wasting time
and she can spam the hell out of this more than anything for these reasons

Spoiler

The EPS value is derived from ETSB which at the very least slowly expands over the course of 15 years to consume and recreate an entire dimension.
This process requires a continuous and uninterrupted flow of chakra over that period, meaning the calculated EPS represents the absolute minimum amount of chakra Kaguya must be constantly generating just to sustain the technique without exhausting herself.

This is not an indicator of her full power—it is a low-end measure of what she can passively maintain over an extended period.

If a character can continuously output energy for 15 years without exhaustion, then their short-term, high-intensity attacks would be significantly stronger, as they are not constrained by the need for long-term sustainability.

I will use an analogy to explain this principle​

• Imagine a runner jogging at a steady pace for 15 years without stopping.
• The fact that they can maintain this slow, constant speed does not mean they are incapable of sprinting at much higher speeds in short bursts.
• Similarly, EPS is Kaguya’s "jogging speed"—a safe, sustainable output—but her offensive techniques should be compared to sprinting, requiring far more energy in a much shorter time.

Kaguya does not need to conserve energy for 15 years during a battle—she can afford to use far greater chakra per second in a high-intensity fight
TLDR : If an energy output is something I am able to leave running in the background while prioritizing a fight, my combat ninjutsu would be massively higher than actions I perform passively

I'm not saying it was, just that I don't agree with that reasoning specifically since it was the one brought up.

Cool so you only have issues with the preference part and not the main one, fine

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I can see points on both sides, but I think I lean towards the OP making more sense overall.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I can see points on both sides, but I think I lean towards the OP making more sense overall.

Appreciate you DDM thanks

 

[DavidTPPM]

It's more that the TSO lacks benefits compared to EGVF and AKAB.

If you can't use the hax aspect of TSO they quite literally become worse Rasengans/Mini TBBs.

I mean Naruto literally used them as cores for rasen shurikens instead of TBBs or rasengans so that pretty much outright tells us they're actually stronger rasengans/mini tbbs. Also just FAR more versatile.

like what's more useful in combat, a giant chakra fist that you can build momentum with the swing of your hands

And TSOs can't build up momentum with the swing of your hand? Half of the TSO usages we see are either them being swung around like staffs or thrown in rasen shurikens.
And Obito literally used his to create hands far bigger than vacuum fists so if anything TSOs size is more versatile.

and spam or a black ball of energy that you lose control over if it flies more than 70 meters away from you,

When has a EGVF ever been used across a 70+ meter distance? Seems like a pretty arbitrary weakness.

and only really seems to apply AP by exploding.

Well besides a single TSO explosion having far greater range than even a barrage of EGVFs without even completely destroying the ball, that's also just not the case.

if she has to fight from a range, they're worthless in this fight, if its close combat it would be easier to just punch them in the face with giant fists that tear apart Susano'o like paper.

Well they weren't worthless for Obito and Naruto for long ranges.

Overall I feel like TSOs provide better range and versatility so I find it really unlikely Kaguya would use an attack several orders of magnitude weaker than them instead despite them having barely if any advantages