Scaling AP to Striking Strength

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

A lot of characters have AP feats like causing an explosion, forming a storm, creating an island, causing a flood and blah blah blah.

Forming a storm, creating an island etcetera, does not scale to your physical strength, unless proven so. You only have the same physical strength and AP when you actually tanked the attack. However many characters somehow have their striking strength and durability scaled to AP. This is extremely inaccurate. This needs to be changed.

Examples

• Zeus (DC Extended Universe) being Mountain Class/Island Class
• Artemis (Riordan) being Moon Class

Former calc group members, Calc group members and Kaltias only

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They hit people with their powers. Said person survives. People can hurt that person with physicality. Scales to that person's striking strength. Newton's 3rd Law activates. Scales to that person's durability. That person gets in a fight with original person.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

The examples I listed are storm feats, island creation and star luminosity changing respectively. They don't hit people with those.

There are a lot of characters like that. Either the justification needs to be changed, or if there's no justification, they shouldn't scale.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

There's no reason to assume they cant put that much energy into their normal attacks

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

No reason? There's no reason to assume they ca. They cause storms, create stuff with their powers, not physical strength.

 

[Thebluedash]

All Might's feat is based on his physical strength though, so it would apply to his striking strength. His feat was that his Smash was strong enough to draw in a storm. Which means that his punch has that level of energy which would apply to his striking strength.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Ah I see. I'll remove that example.

 

[EmbalmerMaster9000]

It would be logical for striking strength to scale if, say, they are capable of damaging a character that can take a hit from their attack that has a certain level of AP.

If a character that creates a storm can fire energy blasts that presumably have an identical level of power - but never directly attack enemies with physical attacks or are shown to be physically weak in comparison to their ranged attacks - then their striking strength should not scale.

However, if an identical character can do the same exact things as the previous character - but is not physically weak and can harm characters that can take hits from the same attack - then their striking strength should scale.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Agreed.

For storm feats, unless a character, like All Might, created a storm with force, or unless another character of comparable power actually got hit by the cloud, it doesn't scale.

For the Riordanverse constellation feat it shouldn't scale to physical strength at all.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Someone should find the thread where it was agreed to scale them to physicals because i get the feeling this will become very ugly very fast

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with Spino except for All Might's case since he did that with his own physical strength like Blue said. This would be a pretty big revision though but nothing we can't handle.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I feel that people are avoiding revisions just because they're large.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Spino This would be a bigger revision than you think and would affect a lot more than just the two examples you listed

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I know this is big, but we shouldn't avoid a revision just because it's big.

 

[Kepekley23]

We should definitely not scale fully fledged energy blasts to casual attacks unless the characters are able to tank blows from people who can counter them.

"I'll blast you alongside this planet's surface with an attack that will shorten my lifespan to zero! Also, my most powerful attack that nearly kills me is just as strong as this random punch I threw 5 seconds ago"

Kinda misses the point, eh?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Wouldnt this potentially downgrade Dante...?

 

[Kepekley23]

Base DMC2 Dante is several layers of scaling above Abigail

 

[Huesito88]

To?

 

[Ryukama]

Except that Boros can hold his own in hand to hand combat with Garou, who straight up survived the attack that negated CSRC, and should be able to survive CSRC itself through ONE's WoG. So while CRSC is the strongest attack his strikes should be somewhat remotely comparable. That's besides the point though.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

You mean this calc? Maybe.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Base DMC3 Dante is several layers of scaling above Abigail

Based on a portal creation feat and a storm feat

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

The hardest thing about this revision is that unlike the Naruto Forums Revision, Striking strength Revision or the Tier 4 Revision, it is hard to find every single page that wrongly scaled physical strength to storm/creation feats.

 

[Ryukama]

Except that Boros can hold his own in hand to hand combat with Garou, who straight up survived the attack that negated CSRC, and should be able to survive CSRC itself through ONE's WoG. So while CRSC is the strongest attack his strikes should be somewhat remotely comparable. That's besides the point though.

If people want to downgrade his SS though I'm fine. But that'd have to be saved for another thread.

 

[Golden_Void]

Depends on how it happens. Thunderstorms can be made by simply messing with enough wind to create the other conditions necessary to produce a storm. If you absorbed the entire energy present in a storm, that's another story.

Tsunamis are created simply by a giant force creating giant waves, unless taking CW Flash for example, you have to run back and forth providing continous movements to create the wavesm in which case it is still impressive, but not as much as doing it in one event.

You can have someone create a storm and nearly get one-shot by a lightning bolt.

Like this guy

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

First I want the calc group to approve this first before starting a revision.

 

[Antoniofer]

We had this rule long time ago, Kkapoios, Xcano and me, and maybe Blue and DT (don't remember) agreed with that previous rule, but then wild rwby revision appeared and started to scale creating storms to physic stats; if we are going to do that, we need to info to back it up, otherwise it was considered enviromental destruction and do not scale to physic stats. And yeah, All Might changed the weather by shear strength, so it do not affects him.

Also, agreed with Kepekley, we shouldn't scale characters normal stats to its strongest attack, an example would be SP Cell, whose strongest attack is baseline solar system and still normal ST and durability is at that level.

 

[Thebluedash]

I approve, but be very careful when changing it as some feats if you closely look may actually involve physical strength and also pay attention to the context of the series that character is in. If its like Boros for example who has been stated to have near equal hand to hand combat with another character, his striking strength should stay the same.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Antonio We're trying to get rid of the term environmental destruction

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

@Thebluedash Hand-to-hand combat =/= AP

 

[Ryukama]

Completely agreed with Blue.

Also in my honest opinion magically poofing a thunderstorm into existence and throwing a punch with the strength to obliterate a mountain are two completely different superpowers. If we don't assume someone who has the latter also has the former, then no reason to assume someone who has the former also has the latter.

Of course there are people who cause these types of feats with their physical power. Or those who physically harm people that tank these magic attacks. Those cases of course should have their Striking Strength scaled.

 

[Jinsye]

Question, question.... dunno if it's just me being blind or whatnot.

Do storm feats/creation feats scale to Energy Blasts and the like?

 

[Kepekley23]

Pretty sure ONE stated Garou would have Boros beat specifically in the area of hand to hand combat, and the databook stated Boros's normal attacks use far less latent energy than CSRC.

That should be covered in another thread, though.

 

[Thebluedash]

@Thebluedash Hand-to-hand combat =/= AP

Something like Boros would work, I worded it weird. But the statement was about how he can fight someone hand to hand combat and still be on the same level. And Garou's ap is entirely based on strength, so if hes able to fight Garou in hand to hand combat, it would stay the same.

 

[Golden_Void]

Also the problem is that people think any time there's an AP upgrade, the rest of the stats are automatically on the same standard, which is wrong.

Though we're already starting to derail, going from characters that perform external feats vs those who are well equipped to bust planets.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Question, question.... dunno if it's just me being blind or whatnot.
Do storm feats/creation feats scale to Energy Blasts and the like?

No, theyd have to have their own feat

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So Boros's striking strength scales to AP?

 

[Ryukama]

Pretty sure ONE stated Garou would have Boros beat specifically in the area of hand to hand combat

It wouldn't be an equal, good fight with an indeterminate winner if Boros's punches didn't graze Garou anymore than a flea would, or if Boros could instantly one shot Garou as if he were a flea with a certain attack.

 

[Golden_Void]

Also, agreed with Kepekley, we shouldn't scale characters normal stats to its strongest attack, an example would be SP Cell, whose strongest attack is baseline solar system and still normal ST and durability is at that level.

I see no reason why we shouldn't unless they gather energy from the environments. I'd agree with this if someone was trying to tier Goku by a spirit bomb, instead of a kamehameha.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It depends heavily on how the character's powers work, how the feat is performed, the nature of the character, etc.

There's far too many factors to consider than assuming automatically one or automatically another.

For the case of Zeus from the DCEU? He created the island of Themyscira with his dying breath, and beforehand had fought with Ares. The same Ares who was blast with Zeus' lightning attack and survived.

If you are to suggest that Zeus' physical power output is vastly below the energy output that he performed as he was dying, you're being ridiculous. Ares survived energy attacks from Zeus, and I strongly doubt that the fight involved Zeus punching Ares and not doing the slightest damage, because his weaker son's durabilty is so much higher.

For the case of Riordanverse Artemis? She did her constellation-creation feat with a thought, while weakened and wounded. To suggest that she would be unable to replcate this level of power in any other way, even when at 100% and using her Divine Form is again, ludicrous.

But in the case of Boros from One Punch Man? Yeah, his normal punches obviously don't scale to the Planet Shattering Roaring Cannon, because that was his strongest attack which put most of his power in.

A lot of the characters who are scaled from storm creation feats and the like are scaled from feats that they put no effort performing, often with a literal thought, and these same characters are seem using physical and energy attacks intercheangeably in battles.

Also, the OP appears to be exaggerating things ever-so-slightly. It is often extremely obvious when a character's energy / magical power doesn't scale to their physical strength. Those tend to be magic / hax type characters, such as everyone from Harry Potter, Zatanna, or a lot of people from ToAru.

A god performing a large-scale weather phenomena with a thought, spending evidently and obviously less effort them he spends when fighting a character? Why would that not scale.

 

[Kepekley23]

The Greek Gods in PJO can vaporize oceans by clashing, so they wouldn't get hit too hard if we decided to downgrade their Striking Strength.