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Scaling AP to Striking Strength
- Thread starter Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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Like I said, energy is energy and it doesn't come from nowhere. We shouldn't need feats to suggest that; it is just the law of conservation of energy.Ryukama said:
Magical powers are a different case, but if someone is capable of generating that energy via creating a storm, without using magic, then this means they have that energy within them one way or another. Thus, they should be capable of putting that energy into something else.
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I still agree with this philosophy.Kepekley23 said:
I get they have that energy within them. But there is no reason to assume someone who only ever uses their energy to make a rainstorm, and never ever uses this energy to directly fight in combat or throw a punch anywhere remotely close to that power can still do so.
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King of Fighters really isn't affected.
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I can understand where you're coming from but I still don't understand why we'd need evidence for this.
If they have that energy then why should we assume that their physical strikes couldn't yield the same energy output? Even if they've never shown it? It's not a baseless claim, it's just following the law of conservation of energy. We shouldn't need evidence for that.
If they have that energy then why should we assume that their physical strikes couldn't yield the same energy output? Even if they've never shown it? It's not a baseless claim, it's just following the law of conservation of energy. We shouldn't need evidence for that.
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You do realize that the Attack Potency page outright tells us to ignore the law of conservation of energy?
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^^^^Kepekley23 said:
Also again, why is it that we can't assume someone who can shatter a mountain with their punch can also magically poof a thunderstorm into existence if they've never shown able to. Yet we can assume vice versa?
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This is in regards to area of effect. Doesn't mean that the energy comes from nowhere.
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No. The principle of Wes's argument is the same. The AoE fallacy argument originates from the fact that conservation of energy tells us a character's energy blast would be converted into chemical energy as soon as it touched the ground, thus renderinng the whole "AOE = \ = AP" argument useless. So we ignore that.
We can not pick the parts of the law that agree with our current standards, but reject the other parts that are all based on the exact same principle (ie. energy can't be created)
We can not pick the parts of the law that agree with our current standards, but reject the other parts that are all based on the exact same principle (ie. energy can't be created)
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The reason Newton's Third Law applies to Ki based attacks is because Ki is dependant on the physical body. If your body doesn't explode into a million pieces when someone performs a powerful Ki based attack, then durability scales. For the same reason someone performs a megaton punch without injuring their hand, their fist must be durable enough to withstand a megaton bomb blowing up inside their fist. Same with Ki attacks, in order for someone to perform a giant planet busting/solar system busting/universe busting Ki wave, without dying, their body must be durable enough to withstand a Planet level/Solar System level/Universe level bomb blowing up inside their body. Additionally, always remember that Destructive Capacity =/= Attack Potency. Since a character could have the precision of hundreds of Tenatons/cc.
As a side note, vaporization feats can be rather controversial, as vaporization is generally more heat based rather than force based. On topic, durability is irrelevant during vaporization. You calc those using volume of the target and heat capacity of the elements/molecules of the target being vaporized. Taking character A's durability, dividing it by a normal human's durability and applying the vaporization value of a human would be Calc Stacking, or at least Calculation Fallacy would probably be a better word for that. On topic, Teen Gohan doesn't need to have like 100,000x stronger AP or something like that, he's legit stronger but by an unknown multitude, that's all that's really needed. Cell was legit holding the Gohan's Kamahameha wave back before he got distracted, but Teen Gohan was initially holding back. Also, Cell was distracted by Vegeta's Big Bang, which was like a mosquito bite or bee sting to him, and perhaps had some of his durability suppressed when Teen Gohan went all out to finished Cell.
As a side note, vaporization feats can be rather controversial, as vaporization is generally more heat based rather than force based. On topic, durability is irrelevant during vaporization. You calc those using volume of the target and heat capacity of the elements/molecules of the target being vaporized. Taking character A's durability, dividing it by a normal human's durability and applying the vaporization value of a human would be Calc Stacking, or at least Calculation Fallacy would probably be a better word for that. On topic, Teen Gohan doesn't need to have like 100,000x stronger AP or something like that, he's legit stronger but by an unknown multitude, that's all that's really needed. Cell was legit holding the Gohan's Kamahameha wave back before he got distracted, but Teen Gohan was initially holding back. Also, Cell was distracted by Vegeta's Big Bang, which was like a mosquito bite or bee sting to him, and perhaps had some of his durability suppressed when Teen Gohan went all out to finished Cell.
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> The reason Newton's Third Law applies to Ki based attacks is because Ki is dependant on the physical body.
Akira Toriyama: "There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it's necessary to increase your "ki". Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.
This is untrue.
Akira Toriyama: "There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it's necessary to increase your "ki". Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.
This is untrue.
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That simply means all superhuman feats in Dragon Ball come from Ki enhancements. Which includes punching among other things. It's similar to how Star Wars Force users can scale their striking strength to their Attack Potency. Any character who can put all their Ki into a blast are equally capably of applying that same energy into a punch or kick.
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Actual feats already debunk the notion that ki blasts automatically scale to durability.
Kid Gohan was going to get killed by his own ki blast being bounced back at him. Piccolo was forced to intervene and redirect it with his own.
Kid Gohan was going to get killed by his own ki blast being bounced back at him. Piccolo was forced to intervene and redirect it with his own.
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That's mostly just Kid Gohan not knowing how to use his power. There's also no proof that he was actually going to get killed, but rather Piccolo prefered to avoid unnecessary risks. It's just the whole being distracted or lacking focus lowers durability. We already covered Dragon Ball characters not being glass cannons a long time ago.
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Your mistake is thinking that ki is an energy fired through the muscles, and that needs to go through some sort of chemical reaction in order to be fired. They objectively aren't. Ki can be used to increase strength, but it does not scale to durability unless proven otherwise.
For example, Vegeta's Final Flash would have literally killed him had Cell decided to bounce it back.. The Final Flash was able to vaporize half of Cell's body, when Vegeta himself could barely budge Perfect Cell and was getting tooled by his attacks.
Ki blasts do not scale to durability unless otherwise proven.
For example, Vegeta's Final Flash would have literally killed him had Cell decided to bounce it back.. The Final Flash was able to vaporize half of Cell's body, when Vegeta himself could barely budge Perfect Cell and was getting tooled by his attacks.
Ki blasts do not scale to durability unless otherwise proven.
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So what does that say of SPC?
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Cell got obliterated by a weaker Kamehameha than the one he fired. He is one of the prime examples of ki blasts not automatically scaling to durability.
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That's still confusing heat based attacks with force based attacks, but either way, I still disagree with this revision effecting Dragon Ball as it only serves to overcomplicate things. And yes, Ki is spirit energy, but it's still advanced martial arts as opposed to let's say magic. Ki is heat based and force based, heat resistance may not scale unless proven, but physical durability legit scales.
Cell also let Vegeta vaporize his torso and head while his defenses were down. And yes, Vegeta was getting stomped, but then Trunks used his key to enhance muscular strength above Perfect Cell's. But Cell noted Ultra Super Saiyan's weakness being speed and stamina sacrifice, which Cell said he could do as well, and that Vegeta did't do it because he knew Ultra Super Saiyan's weakness.
Also, rebounded Ki attacks could by Much higher than initial key attacks as was the same case for collapsing roar cannon.
Cell also let Vegeta vaporize his torso and head while his defenses were down. And yes, Vegeta was getting stomped, but then Trunks used his key to enhance muscular strength above Perfect Cell's. But Cell noted Ultra Super Saiyan's weakness being speed and stamina sacrifice, which Cell said he could do as well, and that Vegeta did't do it because he knew Ultra Super Saiyan's weakness.
Also, rebounded Ki attacks could by Much higher than initial key attacks as was the same case for collapsing roar cannon.
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Gohan's Kamehameha was stronger than Cel's own.
Also durability in Dragon Ball is highly dependent on how much Ki they are using at one moment. They are not Kryptonians. This is why Goku letting his guard down can get hit with the laser.
Also durability in Dragon Ball is highly dependent on how much Ki they are using at one moment. They are not Kryptonians. This is why Goku letting his guard down can get hit with the laser.
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There is no reason for someone to automatically scale to physical durability. And rejecting a revision because it's complicated...
Ki is not advanced martial arts. Martial arts can be developed using ki, but that has nothing to do with what ki actually is; energy that everyone has, and that can be increased with spiritual training.
Literally nothing suggests Cell lowered his defenses. The exact opposite is suggested.
Ki is not advanced martial arts. Martial arts can be developed using ki, but that has nothing to do with what ki actually is; energy that everyone has, and that can be increased with spiritual training.
Literally nothing suggests Cell lowered his defenses. The exact opposite is suggested.
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@Matt
No. Gohan only won because of a stroke of luck. He was at half power and capitalized on Vegeta distracting Cell.
No. Gohan only won because of a stroke of luck. He was at half power and capitalized on Vegeta distracting Cell.
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KEp, what are you even talking about.
Gohan's Kamehameha > Cell's Kamehameha which is 4-B.
How does Cell's durability not scale to his AP when he was hit with something stronger than his AP?
Gohan's Kamehameha > Cell's Kamehameha which is 4-B.
How does Cell's durability not scale to his AP when he was hit with something stronger than his AP?
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Gohan released his full power at that moment if I remember.
Also:
"Literally nothing suggests Cell lowered his defenses. The exact opposite is suggested."
kinda contradicts
"He was at half power and only won because Cell got distracted by Vegeta."
Also:
"Literally nothing suggests Cell lowered his defenses. The exact opposite is suggested."
kinda contradicts
"He was at half power and only won because Cell got distracted by Vegeta."
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@SD
One of these sentences is talking about Cell vs. Vegeta and the other is talking about Cell vs. Gohan
One of these sentences is talking about Cell vs. Vegeta and the other is talking about Cell vs. Gohan
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Wrong.Kepekley23 said:
Gohan was not using his whole power, which was what Goku himself stated. Vegeta distracting Cell for a fraction of a second only allowed Gohan the time needed to scream and push harder them before, thus overpowering Cell's Kamehameha with his real strength.
Gohan was above Cell at his maximum.
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I recall that Cell led him hit by the Final Flash was to prove how strong was he compared to Vegeta with his new form, letting his guard down miss the point of that. Also, I recall SP Cell's kamehameha being stronger than Gohan's, but when Vegeta attack it distracted Cell and led Gohan to win.
Anyway, I recall Spino saying to not discuss that in here, so, maybe another thread would be more appropiate?
Anyway, I recall Spino saying to not discuss that in here, so, maybe another thread would be more appropiate?
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"You're not using your full power, Gohan. You have to let it all out. Explode!" - Goku.
Gohan won because he unleashed more power and overpowered Cell.
Gohan won because he unleashed more power and overpowered Cell.
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Also, yes, Cell was not using the full extent of his Perfect Form's Ki up until he charged against SSJ1 Gohan to showcase how gigantic the gap between him and everyone else was. He was heavily suppressed against SSJ1 Goku and even more so against Super Vegeta. Everyone was astounded at how powerful Cell was.
And like previously stated, Durability in DB is dependent on how much Ki you can access at one's moment. So heavily suppressed Cell being hit with the Final Flash doesn't debunk the durability he'd have at full power.
And like previously stated, Durability in DB is dependent on how much Ki you can access at one's moment. So heavily suppressed Cell being hit with the Final Flash doesn't debunk the durability he'd have at full power.
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No, my dude. You're wrong.
Cell's distraction by Vegeta allowed Gohan to capitalize on that by feeding all of his power on the Kamehameha wave. By the time Cell notices the trick, the Kamehameha's already engulfed him, robbing him of the ability to counter it
Gohan was explicitly said to be weakened.
Cell's distraction by Vegeta allowed Gohan to capitalize on that by feeding all of his power on the Kamehameha wave. By the time Cell notices the trick, the Kamehameha's already engulfed him, robbing him of the ability to counter it
Gohan was explicitly said to be weakened.
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And what is your point exactly? I hope you realize that Gohan being weakened by only having one arm means he was weaker than Cell. Also a point to be made is that you don't need both arms to unleash the full force of your Kamehameha. Goku proved at the beginning of the Android Saga that you can put the full extent of your Ki in your finger. And Trunks was doing the same with a sword.
Gohan went from not being able to unleash his full power due to the crippled arm, to being able when he pushed himself harder.
Gohan went from not being able to unleash his full power due to the crippled arm, to being able when he pushed himself harder.
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@Kep ah I see my bad.
However, given that the point was to show vegeta his Regenerationn, not to tank the attack, I would have to disagree, if anything Cell would be more incline to lower his durability.
However, given that the point was to show vegeta his Regenerationn, not to tank the attack, I would have to disagree, if anything Cell would be more incline to lower his durability.
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That wasn't the reason, I meant, 4-B attack potency with less striking strength or durability is absurd. And sounds like nit picking.
Ki is a concept derived from far eastern Culture about Life Force that connects the body and soul; think it was Confucianism or something, but some ancient Chinese religion is where it all originated. But adapted to many other Far Eastern cultures.
Cell was clearly toying with Vegeta, unless Krillin cutting off Frieza's tail is a legit feat or 18 kicking away SSB Goku's Kamahameha is as well, Vegeta and Goku vaporizing the top half of Cell's body is the same concept.
Ki is a concept derived from far eastern Culture about Life Force that connects the body and soul; think it was Confucianism or something, but some ancient Chinese religion is where it all originated. But adapted to many other Far Eastern cultures.
Cell was clearly toying with Vegeta, unless Krillin cutting off Frieza's tail is a legit feat or 18 kicking away SSB Goku's Kamahameha is as well, Vegeta and Goku vaporizing the top half of Cell's body is the same concept.
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Point taken on the law of conservation of energy. I didn't know we were supposed to ignore it, I always thought the page was mentioning some law I didn't already know about, so I'd always scroll past it.Ryukama said:
But to respond to this point with the same logic I was intiailly using:
If you have super strength, it just means that you can generate the energy. It doesn't mean you have the ability to channel your energy in ways you normally shouldn't be able to, it just means you have more energy, and that your body can withstand it. Meanwhile if you can directly manipulate the weather, that means the energy still had to be inside of you at some point, and that it doesn't just come from nowhere.
I'll still concede that attack potency shouldn't necessarily scale to striking strength, though. It's not rare for fiction to ignore the idea that energy cannot be created. I'm just responding to your point with the same logic I was using; I wouldn't be able to without assuming that energy couldn't be created.
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That's literally what I have been saying this entire debate. That Gohan was weakened.
Gohan capitalized on Cell distracting Vegeta to feed all of his available power onto the Kamehameha, which overwhelmed Cell because he had no time to react. Had Cell noticed it, he'd have just pushed it back again
Gohan capitalized on Cell distracting Vegeta to feed all of his available power onto the Kamehameha, which overwhelmed Cell because he had no time to react. Had Cell noticed it, he'd have just pushed it back again
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However I would like to mention that I think it's perfectly possible to oppose AoE while still following the law of conservation of energy.
The only argument we need is that the environment has to be there in order for there to be a story at all, and that authors often don't take into account how powerful they are making their characters.
Plus, if we were to accept AoE, that would mean that not many characters in fiction would be breaking 7-A on our wiki.
The only argument we need is that the environment has to be there in order for there to be a story at all, and that authors often don't take into account how powerful they are making their characters.
Plus, if we were to accept AoE, that would mean that not many characters in fiction would be breaking 7-A on our wiki.
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> However, given that the point was to show vegeta his Regenerationn, not to tank the attack, I would have to disagree, if anything Cell would be more incline to lower his durability.
There's no proof Cell lowered his durability. It just means the attack was powerful enough to overwhelm Suppressed Cell's durability at the time.
People are missing my point entirely. I'm not saying 100% Cell can't tank Vegeta's Final Flash. I'm saying Vegeta would be killed if his own Final Flash was thrown back at him, which is a readily provable fact.
There's no proof Cell lowered his durability. It just means the attack was powerful enough to overwhelm Suppressed Cell's durability at the time.
People are missing my point entirely. I'm not saying 100% Cell can't tank Vegeta's Final Flash. I'm saying Vegeta would be killed if his own Final Flash was thrown back at him, which is a readily provable fact.
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Oh, well yeah. Of course. He did use most of his ki on the attack, so he wouldn't be able to tank it. Had the attack not used so much energy, it would be debatable.
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