Scaling AP to Striking Strength

[Kepekley23]

...And?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Legit nobody thinks Vegeta's durability scales to an attack that he spent most of his energy on and took like a minute to charge.

However, this doesn't mean that no Ki Attack scales to durability. Goku's been shown training by firing Kamehamehas, turning them back at himself, and blocking them.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

...And?

I'm just trying to make clear that the "Cell is a glass cannon because Final Flash and Goku's Kamehameha" argument is bullshit. But you seem to not believe it so.

 

[Kepekley23]

I literally never implied 100% Cell couldn't tank Vegeta's Final Flash. Like, I don't even know how anyone can possibly come to that conclusion by reading my posts. I said the exact opposite.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Legit, the only debatable glass cannons in Dragon Ball are characters with good Regenerationn, and even then they only reason character get injured by basic attacks is due to suppressed defences Such as Krillin cutting of 2nd form Frieza's tail or Base Goku getting injured by Sorbet's Bad Ring Laser.

 

[SomebodyData]

@kep he's refering to the final flash example, not saying that you implied Cell couldnt tank the final flash I think

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It depends heavily on how the character's powers work, how the feat is performed, the nature of the character, etc.
There's far too many factors to consider than assuming automatically one or automatically another.

(...)

But in the case of Boros from One Punch Man? Yeah, his normal punches obviously don't scale to the Planet Shattering Roaring Cannon, because that was his strongest attack which put most of his power in.

Literally from my first post in this thread. I feel that this debate has gone circular.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

tfw somebody brings up Chi and now the thread is all about DBZ

 

[Kepekley23]

I also never said ki attacks never scale to Striking Strength. I said they shouldn't be assumed to without any proof.

It's pretty clear that the Solar Kamehameha doesn't scale to Cell's durability, considering the only feat we have is him getting obliterated by a Kamehameha that is, at most, as strong as the Solar Kamehameha

 

[Antoniofer]

Weren't we talking about storms/weather feats? Ant and Spino already say to discuss that in another thread.

 

[Kepekley23]

tfw somebody brings up Chi and now the thread is all about DBZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh9vQbwYTH4

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Gohan's Father Son Kamahameha was clearly stronger than Solar Kamahameha. Even Gohan using less than half his strength was equal Solar Kamehameha, but fully confident Gohan + Goku >>> Solar Kamehameha.

 

[SomebodyData]

A-The kamehameha overpowered his solar kamehameha because he was distracted and because Gohan had not used his full power before so. Prior to the this, the kamehamehas were relatively equal.

B- if Cell was distracted, then his durability would have dropped considerably. Espically if he suddenly tried to put all his ki into the kamehameha.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Even Gohan using less than half his strength was equal Solar Kamehameha

It pretty clearly wasn't. The entire Kamehameha battle was based off of 50% Gohan being completely helpless against Cell, then Vegeta coming in and saving the day.

 

[SomebodyData]

I think it was helpless because Gohan was clearly tiring out quicker due to the damage, not because the solar kamehameha was stronger (they were visibly keeping each others blast at bay)

 

[Kepekley23]

Although, now that I think about it, Piccolo said SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta were only slightly stronger than SSJ2 Kid Gohan was, and both of them were tanking each other's attacks. So Cell's striking strength can maybe scale backwards from that since he broke Gohan's arm.

 

[Kepekley23]

@SD

Gohan acknowledged Cell as having powered up immensely after getting his arm shattered, and Cell himself said he had powered up "like Son Gohan". Wouldn't really make any sense for Cell to be half of Gohan's strength at all. It is more like him enjoying Gohan's demise and drawing out the KHH battle, which is also implied by the dialogue.

 

[Dark649]

Cell being distracted with his dura thanks to Vegeta was the only way for Gohan to win, this is why Goku said [now] that it was the time to release all the power.

 

[SomebodyData]

i'm 90% that his power up mention was refering to the ssj2 transformation overall. Goku and Gohan himself state that that Gohan wasn't at full power at all. How does it not make any sense? If anything, it would make more sense than him being > SSJ2 Gohan considering that this is a zenkai during Cell's 2nd form rather than perfect that got him into this form.

 

[SomebodyData]

@dark Yeah basically.

@kep like dark said, the dura drop with then gohan releasing all his power is what caused cell to be defeated.

 

[Kepekley23]

Nobody here said Cell was stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, but he's obviously considerably above <50% Gohan.

Cell: "There's a small clump inside my head…This makes up my nucleus…As long as that clump isn't destroyed, my body can continue regenerating…When I self-destructed, my nucleus fortunately remained uninjured…Quite frankly, I hadn't calculated on being able to regenerate…I was lucky…And even more happily, my body regenerated as my perfect form, even without No.18…And it wasn't merely my perfect form: I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan...

Gohan: "Cell's power has gone up more than I thought…"

 

[Kepekley23]

Cell's Striking Strength is whatever. Just scale him backwards from SSJ2 Kid Gohan, as I pointed out myself. It's better reasoning than his durability and casual strength scaling from his strongest, charged attack.

 

[SomebodyData]

if you're fine with it, okay. Just want to point out that he says like gohan, which at that point was being cocky and hadn't even been shown slightly struggling, which does put him quite below Gohan

 

[Kepekley23]

I believe Cell shattering Gohan's arm with a quick ki blast attests to what he said. Gohan himself notes Cell's power had grown up more than he thought.

 

[SomebodyData]

Didn't he literally have no time to charge up his ki to block, rather using it to rush to vegeta? But regardless, i think we're in overall agreement, so we dont have to discuss this any further if you dont want to

 

[Kepekley23]

Yeah, it's whatever.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Keep in mind for the "unaffected ones". the justification still needs to be changed.

 

[Antvasima]

This discussion has been derailed to the point that we almost need to start a new thread to get on track again.

 

[Antvasima]

"Please note that Striking Strength doesn't automatically scale from Attack Potency unless there are Feats suggesting otherwise. For example, if a character used their strongest energy blast to vaporize a city, it would only scale to their physical strength if they were able to harm opponents that can withstand the aforementioned energy blast, or vice-versa."

I think that this is where we left off regarding what to add to the Striking Strength page.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

This discussion has been derailed to the point that we almost need to start a new thread to get on track again.

Agreed. Should I make one?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. It depends on what other staff members think.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, whether feats was on topic, but someone else mentioned Ki attacks which some of use felt the need to address. But the derailment was bad. I agree with starting a new thread, but need to clarify that it's weather feats is the topic.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that a new thread with a summary of the conclusions so far should probably be fine then.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Done. Close this?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.