Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,006
- 14,146
What is this paterm of Sans vs DB lately??, always the same outcome, Sans win because speed is equalized and Sans has haxes to shit on DB characters despite massive difference in stats
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Sans vs Krillin
- Thread starter Uuber1
- Start date
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- dragon ball krillin sans undertale
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Bones and gasterblaster are intangible, Kirilling atack would just pass trough then and sans Instant action TP out of there... here we go again...
And Kirilling wouldn't go for a killometers wide AOE thanks to the amount of monster civilians around and inside the castle, so Sans just teleport to funking grillb's and come back
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It's funny
i bumped it and 323 replies just appeared.
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Krillin's attacks can interact with intangible things. Isn't that on his page, or not? If it's not, that's kinda weird. Figured it would've by now given it can affect souls and illusions (With ki itself even being spiritual in nature). Regardless, Sans would be forced out of range where he can't spam attacks to survive the AoE if he even can.
Krillin has his life on the line. He'd prolly just kill the monster people than use the Dragon Balls later to revive them. Sacrificing lives in Dragon Ball isn't anything new. Or it's possible the Underground could just be evacuated. It's not specified in the OP that there's monsters there or not. And honestly if they want this to be fair, they should clarify that there is no monsters in the underground. Otherwise it just seems like giving Krillin an unnecessary hindrance to tilt the battle in Sans favor. And if Sans did teleport somewhere else, that would be a huge mistake on his part. He could simply send homing attacks after him and start flying. He'd even be able to fly out of Sans range if he teleported away meaning he'd have no way of getting close again.
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Hm I wonder whose gonna win.
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Money on the one who can kill by powering up
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 8,358
- 6,851
Gonna vote for DB's strongest Earthling for Laser's reasons in particular.
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Napstablook tears can interact with ghosts
Napstablook tears hit frisk soul
Sans atacks pass trough frisk soul
Sans bones have 2 layers of intangibility
Does Kirilling have the hability to interact with things that are intangible to intangible things? I guess not(not to mention if I recall ki can touch intangible things of the elemental intangibility that is diferent from sans intangibility)
Nop, the underground can't be evacuated and has Kirilling wver putted inocent lifes in line for his own? If not this is not applicable here
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Thank you for seeing sense, you legend
.Not sure why people voting for Sans even think this match would be valid if they keep arguing it's a stomp match in favor of Sans with Krillin being unable to do anything.
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Uuughhh... we are discussing the most likely cenario, not all of them
And if a character could do a thing to win but will not do in character It's not considered a stomp...
This is a circle... I'm unfollowing this thread
And if a character could do a thing to win but will not do in character It's not considered a stomp...
This is a circle... I'm unfollowing this thread
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Yeah, ki might actually have 2 layers funny enough. Though I don't currently see it on his profile, so it's not like it matters too much here.
Yeah it can. You can do whatever you want in the OP. It's up to the OP if they want the Underground to be empty or not tbh. And yeah, Krillin has. The entire ToP was him eliminating other Universes to save his life. Besides, in-character, at worst Krillin would think he can just revive everyone with the Dragon Balls. Just like in the Boo saga where they decided to let Super Boo extreminate the rest of humanity to stall Goten and Trunks time to train. Or in the ToP again. Krillin's character is quite cowardly in numerous instances, with him not wanting to put his life on the line. If he can save himself, and believes he can bring the innocents he killed back with a wish, he'd easily make that choice if it meant removing someone he believed was a serious threat (going by SBA).
It's a lot more nauanced than that.
I don't think this match is a stomp. But the people in favor of Sans seem to believe Sans effortlessly kills Krillin in seconds before Krillin can even react to do anything and isn't at ANY risk of being hit. That is a clear-cut stomp.
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if sans can beat goku then he can beat krillin
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The issue is he shouldn't have beat Goku. And it's also super annoying for people to bring up evidence for other threads. At that point, why even bother to debate? Just say "They beat Goku, Cell, etc. so they win here" as opposed to actual fin discourse
. This is just a red herring.
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Most likely to happen scenario=/=Krillin can't win. Krillin could kill Sans by breathing on him in a weird way. Issue is that, most likely circumstance, as most people agree, is that Krillin just dies before he can use any attacks that Sans is incapable of dodging. You literally need to go through several hoops to even make a case that logically explains Krillin having one way to win, whereas there is a much more upfront, simple, and definitive way for Sans to win with no other possible path for Sans. Sans is going to get in the first attack, and chances are it'll kill Krillin, Krillin could theoretically win if he reacts to Sans in a very specific way, but acting like any specific way is the definitive way is simply not true and personal headcanon to justify Krillin winning. Sans has more wincons as most actions Krillin would likely take are gonna end up in his death, and the few actions that could garner a win on his part are out-of-character. If Krillin had more viable wincons, it would be an incon match, but Sans has the majority, which is why people say he wins.
People are voting Sans because they think he wins in the described circumstance. Reality isn't subjective to your perception, and just repeating that they're wrong isn't going to change anything and just creates a negative feeling.
The reason I'm personally not continuing to have a drawn out argument with you is because it literally wouldn't matter if Sans still wins the thread anyways and I wouldn't waste my time doing that.
DimeUhDozen
She/Her- 6,034
- 4,638
I'm voting incon out of spite because Sans threads are the most annoying thing to grace this platform and someone had to say it.
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DimeUhDozen
She/Her- 6,034
- 4,638
I'm on my hater arc today.
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I don't think they're that bad tbh. Just weird things like people telling you that "They beat this person, so they win this". Like these character's are different, they have nuances. There's no point in having match-up if we can't even have a constructive conversation. After all, said old matches could just be wrong and the current match could result in those matches being removed.
I never said Krillin can't win. I specified this in my last comment. A match can still be a stomp even with win-cons if the person is incapable of reliably pulling off the win-cons at all. And if the people here are arguing the chance of Krillin pulling of a win-con is basically impossible should denote the match is a stomp. If they were more open to Krillin's wincons being likely, it wouldn't be an issue. The problem is you're assumptions this takes leaps in logic, when it is the most logistical response. Your arguments have already be addressed, and your alternatives are far more unlikely than Krillin making non-stupid decision. Your suggests were that he'd try to block it or dodge it.
That's NOT what he's going to do 90% of the time because
A. He's being surrounded by hella Danmaku and his mobility is being restricted by Sans. So that's out the window
B. His ki defenses did absolutely noting and he already gets hit by attacks that cause him fatal damage. So he's not going to block it. That would be like if Krillin blocked an attack with his arm, and it incinerated his arm and he decided "Oh, I better block the next one" despite having far safer alternatives. Krillin is a genius combatant, he's not going to do something that blatantly dumb when it clearly won't work.
That leaves using KI AoE in attempt to dissipate the attacks. He can't dodge it, he can't block it, so counter-attacking is the only reliable decision left. All of your arguments against this have just been from incredulity. You can't believe the fact Krillin would use common sense when his other methods of counter-attacking have been made null by Sans opening move. I can't help you any further than that.
What really creates a negative feeling is how little they are willing to engage in conversation. There's been a lot of "Well he beat Goku so he wins, I vote Sans" which defeats the entire purpose of having a versus thread, and there are others who refuse to believe Krillin as skilled as he is would choose the only viable counter if all his other usual tactics are immediately made useless by Sans. They're also acting as if Sans is some dodging god. He can dodge a knife swing or a few swings from Frisk at most, and was caught off guard and killed by Chara. I don't doubt he can dodge some attacks from Krillin, but to act as if he can dodge beam hell from Krillin who has: Huge ass AoE, Beam spam/danmaku, Homing attacks, etc effortlessly is absurd. He's not shown to dodge anything to that extent.
The bottom line is that a good enough player can beat Sans on their first try (or a couple retries), or even beat Sans without being hit a single time. So why would Krillin who is far more; skilled, experienced, and mobile, and versatile lose so easily?
And you not wanting to continue debating with me is fine. That's all up to you. But if your reason is "Arguing doesn't matter because someone is going to win anyways", I have to say I don't really understand. The whole point of debating in the threads is to cause a winner to be decided. Only reason I commented on this thread is because Sans winning seems very unlikely against someone as skilled as Krillin. Against someone as inexperienced as like maybe Kid Goten or Trunks? Sure. They play around too much. Against someone with decades of experience who's willing to do what it takes to survive and win? No. Sans killing Krillin right away when they put Frisk to shame mobility wise just makes little sense.
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- Thread starter
- #342
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I didn't say I want to change it. I don't care about those matches enough to remove it. I just dislike the idea that past matches are being used to decide an entirely different match. It defeats the point of deciding a verdict through debate.well he did
you would need to go to vs thread removal to change that
ProudLearner
She/Her- 1,224
- 443
Sans only fights when he needs to. He is lazy.
All Krillin needs to use solar flare x100 with Kienzan.
Krillin wins this low difficulty.
All Krillin needs to use solar flare x100 with Kienzan.
Krillin wins this low difficulty.
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wtf is this
SBA assumes they have to fight
ProudLearner
She/Her- 1,224
- 443
Then what is the point of not exploting said weaknesses?
GlaceonGamez471
He/Him- 2,632
- 1,214
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Sans would have killed Frisk on sight if not for his promise to Toriel, but also loses any hope in killing them on the Genocide Route because Sans knows it is impossible for him to win, but when he realizes that letting Frisk do as they please means the literal end of the entire world, Sans chooses to try anyways despite the insurmountable odds, and when he fights, he goes for the fastest, most efficient kill possible. Regardless of what Sans wants to do, Sans would be willing and wanting to kill Krillin in this scenario, and that's what he would try to do. If we're literally ignoring all the standard rules of a versus debate, what would happen is some comedic banter between the two probably relating to height, and then Krillin just says "Aight I'ma head out" and neither of them fight each other.
"All Krillin needs to use solar flare x100 with Kienzan."
Ah yes because using his best possible combo immediately into the fight is something Krillin is going to do, in-character.
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It's listed as a weakness but it's not really relevant in a versus thread because the thread is literally going by the assumption that both characters are fully willing to do anything it takes to win, including murdering each other if need be, but otherwise they act completely in-character. In-character, Krillin does not act like the Terminator.
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I agree with this btw. Previous matches have no relevance on new ones even if they involve characters from the same verses. Sans beating Goku doesn't mean he can beat Krillin by default. Sans literally incon'd Zeno in a versus thread, the most powerful canon Dragon Ball character, beat Goku, the main protagonist, but lost to Vegeta. There is a big significance in how the characters will act.
Which is why I don't see Krillin having more reliable wincons, because Krillin acting in a way that would be required for him to win is less likely than him dying to Sans, from what I and others have mentioned.
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I'm glad we can come to an agreement on that front. It destroys the whole point of versus threads if past victories/losses are used to determine every future match-up.
And on that front, I think we just disagree. I think Krillin is most likely to strategize that using Area of Effect moves to clear out the attacks that are killing is most likely. It seems more likely than him continuing to do the very thing that is getting him killed in the first place. After all, he's never shown to do something that stupid throughout Dragon Ball. I think Krillin has less win-cons, but his significantly more likely due to how intelligent he is in combat.
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Anyways I will go back to actually discussing because there seems to be more activity in the thread as time goes on, apparently.
"I never said Krillin can't win. (etc)"
Krillin can pull off a win via a couple unlikely methods, but Sans' winning is just more likely based on what both characters have done in their respective series, and how they would likely engage each other. It's not a stomp for either opponent. Even if we're being generous to Krillin it's barely an incon at best.
"A. He's being surrounded by hella Danmaku and his mobility is being restricted by Sans. So that's out the window"
Sans will throw him into the floor, summon bones underneath him, send a wave of bones flying at him, then use a combination of Gaster Blaster's in different patterns, any of which could kill Krillin with very brief exposure, that's not being surrounded, and Krillin is going to be surprised.
"B. His ki defenses did absolutely noting and he already gets hit by attacks that cause him fatal damage. So he's not going to block it. That would be like if Krillin blocked an attack with his arm, and it incinerated his arm and he decided "Oh, I better block the next one" despite having far safer alternatives. Krillin is a genius combatant, he's not going to do something that blatantly dumb when it clearly won't work."
This assumes he gets away from the attack before it kills him, it assumes Krillin will process what's happening before the next bombardment arrives, and it assumes Krillin will perfectly deduce the correct course of action due to simply experiencing a type of pain he's never felt before, and that he would know how much damage he's taken. Krillin is called a genius fighter by Dragon Ball standard's, which by real life standards means above average (the greatest minds in Universe 7 creating a combat plan together for a tournament that hinged the entire fate of their universe on its shoulders, came up with the genius strategy of "staying away from the edge of the arena" lmao), but that's besides the point.
"That leaves using KI AoE in attempt to dissipate the attacks. He can't dodge it, he can't block it, so counter-attacking is the only reliable decision left. All of your arguments against this have just been from incredulity. You can't believe the fact Krillin would use common sense when his other methods of counter-attacking have been made null by Sans opening move. I can't help you any further than that."
If Krillin survives that long miraculously, sure, I could see it, the problem is that happening is less likely than "WOAH I'M ON THE FLO-dies". For this to work you still need to explain Krillin surviving long enough to make this logical deduction. I haven't at any point said nor implied that Krillin wouldn't use AoE Ki attacks, what I have said is that Krillin wouldn't immediately respond with that the instant after Sans tries to make a move. Krillin is going to die fast, and the way he wins this is by killing Sans faster than that, which is what I find unlikely.
"What really creates a negative feeling is how little they are willing to engage in conversation. There's been a lot of "Well he beat Goku so he wins, I vote Sans" which defeats the entire purpose of having a versus thread, and there are others who refuse to believe Krillin as skilled as he is would choose the only viable counter if all his other usual tactics are immediately made useless by Sans. They're also acting as if Sans is some dodging god. He can dodge a knife swing or a few swings from Frisk at most, and was caught off guard and killed by Chara. I don't doubt he can dodge some attacks from Krillin, but to act as if he can dodge beam hell from Krillin who has: Huge ass AoE, Beam spam/danmaku, Homing attacks, etc effortlessly is absurd. He's not shown to dodge anything to that extent."
Agree. And Sans has no chance of dodging anything that isn't a thin beam with a pathetically small explosion (Krillin wouldn't do that) or Krillin punching and kicking, which I think is something Krillin would try to do if Sans didn't force him away, because Krillin is smart enough to see that Sans isn't very good at close quarters, but that's iffy. I just don't think Krillin would immediately or even very quickly resort to big AoE before he just actually dies.
"The bottom line is that a good enough player can beat Sans on their first try (or a couple retries), or even beat Sans without being hit a single time. So why would Krillin who is far more; skilled, experienced, and mobile, and versatile lose so easily?"
The player is beating Sans because the player has a plethora of advantages, not because the player is simply skilled.
"And you not wanting to continue debating with me is fine. That's all up to you. But if your reason is "Arguing doesn't matter because someone is going to win anyways", I have to say I don't really understand. The whole point of debating in the threads is to cause a winner to be decided. Only reason I commented on this thread is because Sans winning seems very unlikely against someone as skilled as Krillin. Against someone as inexperienced as like maybe Kid Goten or Trunks? Sure. They play around too much. Against someone with decades of experience who's willing to do what it takes to survive and win? No. Sans killing Krillin right away when they put Frisk to shame mobility wise just makes little sense."
If Sans gets the vast majority of the votes and is indisputably going to win the thread, there's no reason to continue discussing the main topic, but now more people are contributing so it seems more worthwhile again. I'm not saying I won't argue if a topic is pointless, this entire website is pointless in the grand scheme of things, I'm just saying that arguing about a topic in a thread that would be closed in a day or whatever feels like a waste of energy. Talking in a discussion thread that will not be closing is more productive.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
- 1,553
People in here. Krillin never kills his opponents and only uses normal attacks.
Krillin against opponents much weaker than him who were afraid:
Still believe this is inconclusive. They can both take out their opponent and Krillin resorts to blasts quite fast as shown here.
More proof Krillin goes staight to blasts:
That would just lead to krillin doing big aoe Nappa style. Now it's better.
Krillin against opponents much weaker than him who were afraid:
Still believe this is inconclusive. They can both take out their opponent and Krillin resorts to blasts quite fast as shown here.
More proof Krillin goes staight to blasts:
That would just lead to krillin doing big aoe Nappa style. Now it's better.
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Where's the idea that these are "unlikely" methods when it involves Krillin being cornered INTO using it. On top of that, his follow-ups would be stuff he has done in-character. The only counters I've seen in regards to using AoE to dispel Sans attacks involves him doing things far more unlikely. Like continuing to block attacks despite them clearly doing fatal damage and piercing his defenses like nothing.
He doesn't use TK at the beginning of the fight tho. He just disables Frisk's ability to float as a soul. Krillin is far more mobile and adaptable than Frisk. He'd be able to easily jump over the first wave of bones and navigate the wave and gaster blasters afterwards via aim-dodging as Frisk does. Especially when you consider verse equalization means Sans has Ki and thus Krillin can sense Sans and all of his attacks. Will he be surprised? Yeah, but he's surprised against every new opponent he fights. So it's not something he can't handle.
Frisk is able to deduce and dodge pretty fine. I would think someone with far more mobility options with ki sensing would have significantly less trouble. Especially in a verse where they similarly have to deal with homing ki blast spam. This also assumes Krillin dies from like 1 second of exposure when Frisk can't survive most of Sans first attack without moving. They die before it ends, but they can endure around half of the attack by just sitting in place (I recall testing before). And if Krillin is experience intense pain he's never felt before from the hundreds of attacks surrounding him, then that narrows his choices to countering the attacks with his own. It's not "perfectly deducing", it's Krillin being decisive on the only realistic counter. All his other counters quite literally won't work, except maybe Solar Flare. Every other option he'd understand would get him killed (I mean that's one of the worst skill feats of the series. Even within ToP, they deduced several strategies against individual opponents, and people like DBS Goku are just outright skilled than people like Cosmic Garo).
"Miraculously"? The incomparably less skilled and mobile Frisk surviving through all of Sans attacks and killing him says otherwise imo.
Sans attacks don't insta-kill. There was a CRT for this a while back. Attacking the soul doesn't completely ignore durability. And even Sans KR effect actually makes Friskj survive longer than if they didn't have it (Since the purple bar serves as an additional health bar. You can't die until that bar depletes). Krillin could very well survive Sans attacks for an extended amount of time. They don't insta-kill him. He just can't survive a prolonged time. Have you been arguing under the premise that Krillin dies the instant he comes in contact with Sans bones or smth? If so that might explain why we can't come to an agreement. Krillin definitely survives long enough to consider a counter.
I should clarify. I think if you argue Krillin is hit by Sans very first attack (I don't think he gets hit by the whole thing. Maybe just the first part), then Krillin uses AoE as a response to all the other oncoming attacks. Given he'd be able to feel the substantial damage it caused to him (I assume attacks to the soul hurt just like physical blows. No reason to assume they don't tbh. Especially in the case of DB where Soul has correlation with ki). To put it from his perspective:
"Oh, that attack hurt a LOT! And there's a LOT more coming. If I don't find a way to counter those bones, I'll be done for. I should probably use my area of effect attacks".
And keep in mind, even attacks as basic as powering-up can be used as an AoE attack. Or a basic kiai wave.
If Krillin dodges every attack, he'd probably just use standard Ki Blasts with some AoE (Since they explode most of the time) and maybe go in for close quarters.
Not really? It depends on the player. Some people do no-hit runs on Sans. And in those runs, Frisk still has far less mobility, agility, and versatility than Krillin.
If you use resets, that's more of a skill issue. Same for items. They aren't required to beat him.
Fair enough.
That said, I'm heading to bed now.
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"Where's the idea that these are "unlikely" methods when it involves Krillin being cornered INTO using it. On top of that, his follow-ups would be stuff he has done in-character. The only counters I've seen in regards to using AoE to dispel Sans attacks involves him doing things far more unlikely. Like continuing to block attacks despite them clearly doing fatal damage and piercing his defenses like nothing."
Because the chances of Krillin surviving long enough to resort to these methods is comparable in unlikelihood to him using them at the beginning.
"He doesn't use TK at the beginning of the fight tho. He just disables Frisk's ability to float as a soul. Krillin is far more mobile and adaptable than Frisk. He'd be able to easily jump over the first wave of bones and navigate the wave and gaster blasters afterwards via aim-dodging as Frisk does. Especially when you consider verse equalization means Sans has Ki and thus Krillin can sense Sans and all of his attacks. Will he be surprised? Yeah, but he's surprised against every new opponent he fights. So it's not something he can't handle."
??? Literally the first thing he does is use his soul TK to throw us down, what is blud wafflin' about. The rest is all extrapolation. I understand the argument for AoE Ki blast's, and saying Krillin is skilled or whatnot is fine, but the rest of this detailed extrapolation is unfounded and cannot be proven in any reasonable way, which is why I was saying earlier that the fact that we need to make these complex detailed stories of the fight playing out in a very specific way to justify Krillin winning, is kind of making it more agreeable that Krillin's wincons are lesser than that of Sans, rather than the other way around.
"snip"
Frisk doesn't do anything, it's the player doing all the fighting. And the player has many advantages. Krillin dying from 1 second of exposure is being generous to Krillin. By actual game mechanics, Sans does 30 DPS due to how he effects frames. Krilin would at best have like, maybe sub-30 HP because of his lack of EXP, though likely higher than 20. "Frisk" in this circumstance is unfathomably inferior to Krillin in terms of power and whatnot, but by game mechanics Frisk would objectively have far higher soul-based HP due to their EXP gain. Even using the game mechanics, Sans attacks would in fact kill Krillin in less than a second. And without game mechanics, it's only fair to assume Krillin would die very quickly by some arbitrary amount. So either way, there's not really an argument that would justify Krillin surviving any noteworthy period of time. Krillin would experience intense pain and his thoughts would be on survival and defense, he is not the Terminator. And to say Krillin's only rational, logical, plausible thought would be the only method he would have of winning is a big leap. Krillin's mind would be racing, and it narrowing down on "big boom go xd" is not a fact. Furthermore, he wouldn't be "surrounded by hundreds of attacks". Sans has danmaku, but not Touhou levels of danmaku my guy. Krillin would be able to beat Sans if he survived throughout the first chain of attacks and Sans stopped for a brief period of time and Krillin chose to use a Ki blast Sans can't avoid, that's about it.
"snip"
There's a big difference between "instant" and "an extended period of time". Krillin could survive Sans' attacks for an extremely brief period of time, the chances of him successfully surviving a complete chain of attacks so that he can get off one big AoE Ki blast that Sans can't avoid is what I find unlikely.
"snip"
The first part would drive him to the brink of death if not kill him outright, and him dodging the rest of it is entirely a matter of detail that cannot be proven. If Krillin makes it through the entire first attack, I could see him winning, only if he then chooses the correct option, but I don't see him making it through the entire first attack. It literally needs to go perfectly in Krillin's favor for that to be the end result. You even specify that if he completely dodges all of it he may go in for a melee attack, which imo would actually seal his fate. He ain't hitting Sans in close quarters, and good luck to Krillin dodging Sans' attacks at that range, which Sans could use faster than Krillin could muster a Ki blast.
"snip"
SAVE files, prior knowledge, video game mechanics (layout, menu, practically default speed equalization, etc.), items, and several more don't count as advantages? I just wouldn't talk about this whole "well player can dodge too!" argument because it's really not gonna go anywhere and is just weird.
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Using AoE when he is surrounded by a small army of fodders when he is lacking in self-confidence is not equivalent to using AoE on Sans, a skeleton who by his sensory abilities would be hilariously weak, whose attacks would usually be few in number at the same point in time and coming from one or just a few directions. Also, Sans would attack before Krillin would, and if Krillin tried using this in specific, with how long it takes, Sans would just keep attacking while he's in the middle of it, which is 100% in-character for him to do.
Krillin literally fighting GOKU is not equivalent to this situation.
If you could only list 2 instances, I am starting to feel more confident in what I'm saying, ngl. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the time Krillin engages with melee attacks.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
- 1,553
That is literally the exact scenario that plays here. There hasn't been another time where Krillin fought fodders except the saibamen:
Where he again just blasts them.
And only this scene where he used physical attacks on someone weaker:
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