Sans (Undertale) vs Suika Ibuki (Touhou)

[Squid_peanut]

undertale is wierd, the low tiers are really fast and the high tiers are really durable

 

[Northern_Wind00]

The problem is that the top tier of Undertale can curbstomp just about everyone in Touhou. After completion, Chara/Frisk/Omega Flowey/Asriel are literally so far above just about every Touhou character that it's not even worth comparing. Sans is interesting because he's NOT one of the god tiers, has good hax, and has low HP(for endgame Undertale). It means that high end Touhou characters, if they can land blows, can seriously damage him. That's the whole point of this particular matchup.
For the record, last I checked, Sans is inconclusive vs. Beerus due to Sans' hax giving him a reasonable chance. That should give you an idea of just what level he is at.

Sans is also inconclusive against Piece!Beatrice. It's really, really crazy how wide his 'inconclusive' range is.

1.) I do understand the difference, however, their limits are implied through the fact that they fight under such limitations. Thus is the nature of feats. "It'd be a direct violation of the spell card rules for being too cheap." Can you get me a source on the spellcard rules that states they're not fighting to their highest effects?

2.) This one's a little more curious, however, I did mention a majority of the endings for a reason. If we can't take them all as canon, why not at least examine what appears to be true in the majority of them? in the majority of them she is stopped at the end. That's a fact.

3.) You seem to be confusing LV with Determination. LV is the measure of how easy it is to detach yourself and kill something. Determination is not dependant on LV, as Frisk, at 1 LV, has as much if not slightly more determination than Frisk/Chara does in the Sans fight. Determination has more to do with how intense the situation is than anything else.

(5)4.) You are correct that some of his prediction comes from reading the face, however he also has an intimate knowledge of different timeline's possibilities and a massively fast reaction time.

(7)5.) You are right. It is enough to raise reasonable doubt on whether or not Chara's LV increases after Sans, however, as previously mentioned, killing things improves LV, not determination. LV raises some characteristics, sure, but Determination is the power that allows for the truly endgame feats of Chara and Frisk. Chara says it themself, that it is your determination that has called them and your determination that will send the world into the abyss. After sans, no moment in the game requires more determination, which is sourced from you as a player, confirmed.

 

[Drac32Drac]

1. ) Here is a link to the 'draft' spellcard rules. Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules In particular "Relying on stamina and repeating an attack is not allowed." and "That deciding victors solely based on strength is unacceptable.".

Reisen also clarifies in Cage in Lunatic Runagate, chapter 6, when mentioning the spellcard duel on the moon. In particular, "Er, I think my explanation was a little poor. Gracefully, as in not using dirty tricks and such..."

These two sources combined should make it pretty clear that these characters aren't dueling at maximum potential in a spell card duel.

2. ) She did stop, but... did she stop due to losing? Or did she stop just because she felt like it/took pity/got bored? That point is a bit less clear.

3. ) You are right, I was confusing them a bit. Chara DID state that his determination came from the player. However, once Chara took over, there is no reason to assume that he couldn't gain even MORE determination. Given how ridiculous his followup feat is, this is actually highly likely.

4/5 ) His speed and reaction are unquestionably superior to Suika. However, would that save him from zero-point effects at a distance? Suika is capable of such conceptual level effects.

7 ) Chara flat out lies when he says that it is YOUR determination that will send the world into the abyss. For proof, try to use your determination to NOT destroy the world and see what happens.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

1.) Alright! thank you, that is MOST helpful. I see the broad interpretation of that rule as meaning that one could not stay invulnerable permanently, yes, but the wording leaves it incredibly vague. It is only by a broad interpretation of the rule that such an attack needs to be cut short by time. For instance, any other spellcard attack, if you don't attack the enemy, continues indefinitely, at least in the majority of the bullet hells.

2.) One can assume she lost the fight/fights by virtue of them happening and the majority of the endings involving her losing.

(3/7)3.) It's possible he draws more determination out of the player, but I doubt it's that much, as you said, he can do it even if you don't want to, and there's the issue. Chara takes your determination FROM you at the endgame and uses it to destroy the multiverse, even against your will, hence the line "since when were you in control?"

(4/5)4.) his dodging is really ridiculous. I think he could keep his area clear of her mist, and by extension, her influence, and dodge with his reactions, but that's really up to interpretation. The only thing that hit him broke reality via determination ala-Chara.

 

[Drac32Drac]

1 ) I almost forgot. In Grimoire of Marisa, it is specifically mentioned that Reimu's ability is considered too powerful for use in duels until it was given a name and time limit.

2 ) There are perfectly valid arguments both ways here and due to the spell card rules, and the fact that bad ending is perfectly viable in this case for canonicity, it's best to say that it's inconclusive as to which ending should be considered canon. And even if she did lose, it doesn't diminish her actual power... strange as that sounds.

3 ) You didn't feel your determination to see the end of the run sharply drain away when you lost control? I know I did. It was night and day difference. I quickly went from "I beat him!" to "No... stop! What are you doing?!"

4 ) His dodging is certainly rediculous. There is no denying that. But Sans DOES have a bit of a problem with endurance. Suika may stand a decidedly good chance of flat out lasting longer than Sans can keep it up. And don't kid yourself. Suika is a pretty good reality warper too. I just don't see Sans as capable of completely obliterating every piece of mist before more of it forms.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

1.) Ah! That's more solid proof. Thank you, I'll take your word for it.

2.) It does make sense, thank you for a little more support on that. I see what you mean.

3.) I reason it simply as "chara has warped your determination and is now in control of it". That's the intention I read out of that. I uh.. I didn't PLAY through Genocide. I could never bring myself to hurt them, but I know how it all works intimately and have studied the story elements, etc. I'm dang sure that Chara still has determination sourced to you, even if it's no longer under your control.

4.) I think he could do it, but it would require speed (assuming that his ability to affect the 'soul', as a culmination of her being, doesn't actually affect the culmination of her being in this case, which is... kinda ridiculous that we're considering that as the default here), blasters, sucker-punch (hitting her hard and fast and early) and intelligent containment (which he has proven he's capable of in the past). That's my thought on the matter.

 

[Drac32Drac]

For more evidence at the mist form's status, I direct you to Wild and Horned Hermit chapter 9. In it, Suika attacks a number of youkai at the Myouren Temple. Each time, she OHKOs the victim without the victim even sensing her approach. When Reimu, Marisa, and Kasen all show up to investigate, Marisa is the first target that didn't suspect a thing... going down in one hit. Reimu and Kasen spring into action, but neither can do anything about it. This includes Kasen with her special arm that is capable of grabbing and completely obliterating a spirit, to the point that the victim no longer exists anywhere, in one squeeze. I think this is pretty good evidence that the mist form truly separates her soul.

So, the main question at hand is can Suika survive long enough to form a mist. She would almost certainly win if she started in mist for, I think. I think it might be possible, as she is likely capable of 'absorbing' incoming attacks by virtue of 'dissipating' anything and everything(within some unknown but obscene limit) that gets to close to her and absorbing it as health/energy. If she can turn the broken fragments of sky(which she broke to give the illusion of breaking the moon) into mist and absorb that, then I think there's a lot of leeway for this ability to dissolve things. However, it might not be fast enough to actually stop the attacks, but it should at least diminish their effectiveness. Actually, dissolving the sky fragments sets a VERY long range of use as the illusion held all across Gensokyo. That means that the feat was indeed a long distance use of her ability to manipulate density.

I'm still thinking about how to approach the speed issue. Sans is obviously faster, but Suika has a lot of 'anti-speed' options.

Oh, And Suika flat out said to Reimu... "You can't defeat me." Just throwing that out there.

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Ibuki.


She is awesome.

 

[WarriorWare]

Bad argument. Sans is also awesome.

 

[Drac32Drac]

They are both awesome in their own ways.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

If she starts in mist form, I think she takes it, if she has to sublimate into it, then I think sans' speed advantage and intelligence can contain her and destroy her.

 

[Drac32Drac]

This matchup turned out to be far more interesting than you originally though, huh?

 

[Northern_Wind00]

This matchup turned out to be far more interesting than you originally though, huh?

indeed. Very fun, thank you for creating it. I'm a huge fan of both verses, and I learned a lot about Touhou that I didn't fully understand as a result, and gained a greater appreciation for the limitations of Sans in the process. This has been enlightening, even if I think Sans could still win.

 

[Drac32Drac]

In retrospect, unless we are seriously overstating Sans AP or seriously undervaluing Suika's durability(both are possible given the ambiguity of the power levels shown) then Sans probably wins if Suika doesn't start in mist form. If she does, then Suika almost surely wins.

Now, when I said to be glad that I didn't invoke CtC Suika, there's a reason for that. In it she was shown to not only survive the destruction of a 'world' but also spread her mist out uniformly over that 'world' and completely 'gathered' it back together. In the process, she managed to take a dream world and make it reality! That's a level of hax far beyond anything Sans has even remotely shown and he would definitely lose.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In retrospect, unless we are seriously overstating Sans AP

1 with partial durability negation and KR?

 

[Drac32Drac]

As for KR, I'm not really sure about that one. Oni aren't depicted as man eaters or killers in Touhou or Japanese lore. In both, the dangers from oni stems from the threat of abduction, which is why it's considered unwise to befriend an oni. There's even a special Japanese word for "spirited away by oni"(yes, Yukari isn't the only one that can do that).
The next part holds true for Touhou, but I'm unsure of the Japanese lore. High ranking oni, or kishin(not to be confused with Sagume Kishin) are dispatched from the Ministry of Right and Wrong to essentially end the lives of those that "have lived a little too long", like Seiga, and bring them before judgment. I'm hard pressed to believe that this kind of killing would be cause for KR to kick in, being essentially being bound by and enforcing the laws instead of causing trouble.

All of that said, her soul is undoubtedly stained in some way. Abductions alone are a pretty bad way to go, even if you survive somehow. Where do you think one goes once abducted? Ponder that for one moment whilst pondering KR.

This is my previous thoughts about KR, but durability negation is a valid point though. We just don't know how much 'punishment' Suika can take and how that translates to what Sans can dish out. It's likely enough to eventually take Suika down, but it won't be instant.

As for the 'marked for death' types of kills, that is to be literally taken to be a form of Karmic Retribution in it's own right as ordered from 'on high' and I don't believe it should count against Suika.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Hmm. I just realized that Suika is likely able to escape 'containment'. She has proven capable of dissolving gameplay elements(health bar), so regardless of how you interpret that containment, it may be within her power to dissolve it, and perhaps even absorb it. Only one particle needs to escape for her to keep going, and that one particle can heal itself back up while splitting even more. Another issue for Sans is that he probably is going to have a very hard time detecting microscopic particles. Even a microscopic particle still contains a full instance of her soul allowing her full use of her ability.

Factoring in that she can at least partially absorb some of the effects of incoming attacks as health, the fact that Sans probably can't contain her indefinitely, and the fact that she won't instantly die from a sucker punch, there's a sliver of doubt as to if Sans can actually kill her at all.

I think it would be best to change this to a two round battle. Round 1 is starting in normal form and round 2 in mist form.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

I think it would be best to change this to a two round battle. Round 1 is starting in normal form and round 2 in mist form.

I agree with this, however, we have to acknowledge that as prep time for Suika, which it functionally is. Allow him to space his veritable army of blasters and bones strategically for a blitz as well and the result still could be in his favor, especially considering his metafighting, which can directly place bones on the decision-making elements of an opponent that are just as capable of hurting as anything else. Then we have an awkward situation where the bones are "inside her" on a meta level, if I'm not mistaken.

Another relevant calc would be how quickly she can do these things and the fastest relevant attack she's dispursed or partially absorbed. By feats, his blasters might actually be too fast for her.

 

[Drac32Drac]

I think it would be best to change this to a two round battle. Round 1 is starting in normal form and round 2 in mist form.

I agree with this, however, we have to acknowledge that as prep time for Suika, which it functionally is. Allow him to space his veritable army of blasters and bones strategically for a blitz as well and the result still could be in his favor, especially considering his metafighting, which can directly place bones on the decision-making elements of an opponent that are just as capable of hurting as anything else. Then we have an awkward situation where the bones are "inside her" on a meta level, if I'm not mistaken.
Another relevant calc would be how quickly she can do these things and the fastest relevant attack she's dispursed or partially absorbed. By feats, his blasters might actually be too fast for her.

Sans has not shown anything anywhere near the ability to fully encompass that large of an area with his attacks near instantly. Frisk/Chara wouldn't win if that were possible. Added to that, Sans clearly doesn't have the stamina to fire that many attacks before tiring.

I also think you are exaggerating Sans' prediction abilities. It's clear that while he has 'some'(admittedly pretty good) knowledge of future events, that he cannot predict every last detail to the letter. There is no reason(not even his dodging) to assume that he knows of every single attack before it happens. If this was the case, Sans would have dodged Chara's second attack... which didn't happen.

As for speed, I am not well versed in such calculations. I know that she can materialize and dematerialize herself pretty quickly, but beyond that I don't have much to offer in terms of timeframes. As for the blasters, even if they were instantaneous(not light speed) there is a delay on them where they charge. As such, it's up for debate... but you are probably right that they might very well be too fast for her.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

As for speed, I am not well versed in such calculations. I know that she can materialize and dematerialize herself pretty quickly, but beyond that I don't have much to offer in terms of timeframes. As for the blasters, even if they were instantaneous(not light speed) there is a delay on them where they charge. As such, it's up for debate... but you are probably right that they might very well be too fast for her.

Ahhh... I love the smell of Unknowns in the morning. Seriously, you're a good sport and this is a lot of fun. I appreciate that you keep reminding me to temper myself here, as well. Thank you for that. You are probably correct, Sans probably cannot cover as wide an area, so with prep time, Suika would probably crush him on stamina alone, once she could hit him.

You have to remember that Chara hitting Sans wasn't a simple matter of 'another attack'.By taking control and swinging again, Chara is breaking the laws of reality in the exact opposite way of Sans holding you in place. Even in the Omega Flowey Fight, the Fight commands at the end come on a regular timer, after Flowey got his chance to strike back. Even in the Asriel Dreemurr fight, when Asriel's telling you to stop, to not save him, he has to obey turn order. This is a strong break in reaility brought about by another being wresting control from the one he was fighting, and I would argue that that's why he gets hit by it, when nothing else can touch him.

And as for the quoted part, it's okay, speed calcs are.. kinda ridiculous off the blasters anyway.

 

[Drac32Drac]

So, fourth wall breaking level of reality hax... Suika does that too when she dissolves the health and power bars. When she does this, she literally continuously casts the spell without stopping, essentially breaking(or at least bending) the spellcard rules in the process. Without her energy bar, she essentially sets herself at unlimited(don't NLF me, I'm speaking with respect to her game appearance) energy to continuously cast. She also breaks the spellcard timer so that it cannot time out.

And dodging zero-point effects at a distance sounds, problematic at best even with teleportation.

As for not expecting the second attack, well, it's also plausible that he couldn't read the attack because it didn't originate from Frisk... nothing more bizarre than that.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

So, fourth wall breaking level of reality hax... Suika does that too when she dissolves the health and power bars. And dodging zero-point effects at a distance sounds, problematic at best even with teleportation.
As for not expecting the second attack, well, it's also plausible that he couldn't read the attack because it didn't originate from Frisk... nothing more bizarre than that.

The circumstances upon which the attack happens are enough to cast reasonable doubt on it simply being a normal attack... at least in my opinion, but either way, we can agree he would tire himself out fighting her before he could kill her if she starts in mist form.

 

[Drac32Drac]

So... there IS someone that isn't universal, or even solar system level for that matter, that can beat Sans!

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Someone with high enough Reality Warping, like Yukari probably, could bypass his annoying dodging.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Yukari has more unknowns than even Sans does, except in the area of strategy. That's a bad one for a vs. battle.

If you wanted to get diabolical, Koishi would win hands down due to Sans being unable to percieve her. You can't dodge what you don't know exists, and her ability is always on unless she chooses to let you perceive her.

 

[DontTalk]

So... there IS someone that isn't universal, or even solar system level for that matter, that can beat Sans!

There are a lot of characters who can beat him that aren't that high... one just has to be faster or have certain hax.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well her unknown are mainly in hax, we don't even know Sans' tier.

 

[Drac32Drac]

So... there IS someone that isn't universal, or even solar system level for that matter, that can beat Sans!

There are a lot of characters who can beat him that aren't that high... one just has to be faster or have certain hax.

Even so, this debate thus far has been enlightening on both sides of the argument. I enjoyed it.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

So... there IS someone that isn't universal, or even solar system level for that matter, that can beat Sans!

With prep, yeah, she can beat him. It's inconclusive straight up. Can we agree to that?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There are a lot of characters who can beat him that aren't that high... one just has to be faster or have certain hax.

^^^^

 

[Drac32Drac]

With prep, yeah, she can beat him. It's inconclusive straight up. Can we agree to that?

Overall, as the debate stands now, I'm thinking.

Round 1: Inconclusive, but I'd lean towards Sans if I had to pick.

Round 2: Suika

Is this what you mean?

 

[MirthfulDoggedness]

R1: Sans, if he cheap-shots her fast enough.

R2: Suika, due to the fact he cannot properly hurt her this way.

My own opinion, though.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

With prep, yeah, she can beat him. It's inconclusive straight up. Can we agree to that?

Overall, as the debate stands now, I'm thinking.
Round 1: Inconclusive, but I'd lean towards Sans if I had to pick.

Round 2: Suika

Is this what you mean?

yeah.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Any more voters? Or should we wrap this one up?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I'll vote for Suika on Round 2. Roudn 1 is really a tie. But probably gonna lean on Suika if necessary. Still thinking that even if Suika does get hit she can survive long enough to go on mist form.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Hehe... I know this doesn't really count as any proof of feats, but the titles that Aya assigns to each character as well as the order of the encounters really reveals her oppinions of each character in Shoot the Bullet. For the most part, this actually feels like a progression of percieved power levels... but don't let that fool you. This is all from Aya's persepective and must be taken with a grain of salt.

Aya Shameimaru (Humble Tengu Reporter)

----------------

Wriggle Nightbug (Swarm of Bright Bugs)

Rumia (Youkai Hiding in the Darkness)

Cirno (Unnatural Chill)

Letty Whiterock (Localized Cold Wave)

Alice Margatroid (Superficially Busy Youkai)

Keine Kamishirasawa (Bookish Historia)

Reisen Udongein Inaba (Sight-Shaking Youkai Rabbit)

Medicine Melancholy (Poison Doll)

Tewi Inaba (Herd of Leaping Rabbits)

Hong Meirin (Colorful Rainbow Gatekeeper)

Patchouli Knowledge (Enigmatic Source of Magic)

Chen (Hyperactive Monster Cat)

Youmu Konpaku (Kirisute Gome)

Sakuya Izayoi (Dangerous Illusionist)

Remilia Scarlet (World of Crimso)

Ran Yakumo (Unusual Animal)

Yuyuko Saigyouji (Elegant Ghost Photography)

Eirin Yagokoro (Town Pharmacist)

Kaguya Houraisan (Inhuman Princess)

Komachi Onozuka (Edokko God of Death)

Sikieiki Yamaxanadu (Helpful Lecture)

Flandre Scarlet (Diabolic Wave)

Yukari Yakumo (Uncanny Smile)

Fujiwara no Mokou (Human Immune to Death by Fire)

and last but certainly not least...

Suika Ibuki (The Dawn of Time)

 

[Andykhang]

Vote for Suika to win in round 2 too. Though i have a bit of a question:

For one to change universe with just the power of determination, i feel like determination would be a bit almighty in that world. It's also count as a substance, since Alphys have been known to inject it into her fellow monster.

Quick question, because it's a visible form of energy, Suika would have been able to absord it. So... if she absord the Underverse's Determination , would she got at least Frisk power? (and no, Suika kinda isn't like the monster in Undertale)

I could have discuss it in otherplace if you want.

 

[The_Angry_Queen_Bee]

I'm pretty sure Suika can kill Sans. Heck, even Rumia can. Yes, Sans will put up a fight but still.

 

[Andykhang]

jesus chirst that is some necro there...I don't think anyone even remember this thread anymore.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Who's Suika and Sans?