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undertale is wierd, the low tiers are really fast and the high tiers are really durable
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Sans is also inconclusive against Piece!Beatrice. It's really, really crazy how wide his 'inconclusive' range is.Drac32Drac said:The problem is that the top tier of Undertale can curbstomp just about everyone in Touhou. After completion, Chara/Frisk/Omega Flowey/Asriel are literally so far above just about every Touhou character that it's not even worth comparing. Sans is interesting because he's NOT one of the god tiers, has good hax, and has low HP(for endgame Undertale). It means that high end Touhou characters, if they can land blows, can seriously damage him. That's the whole point of this particular matchup.
For the record, last I checked, Sans is inconclusive vs. Beerus due to Sans' hax giving him a reasonable chance. That should give you an idea of just what level he is at.
indeed. Very fun, thank you for creating it. I'm a huge fan of both verses, and I learned a lot about Touhou that I didn't fully understand as a result, and gained a greater appreciation for the limitations of Sans in the process. This has been enlightening, even if I think Sans could still win.Drac32Drac said:This matchup turned out to be far more interesting than you originally though, huh?
1 with partial durability negation and KR?Drac32Drac said:In retrospect, unless we are seriously overstating Sans AP
This is my previous thoughts about KR, but durability negation is a valid point though. We just don't know how much 'punishment' Suika can take and how that translates to what Sans can dish out. It's likely enough to eventually take Suika down, but it won't be instant.Drac32Drac said:As for KR, I'm not really sure about that one. Oni aren't depicted as man eaters or killers in Touhou or Japanese lore. In both, the dangers from oni stems from the threat of abduction, which is why it's considered unwise to befriend an oni. There's even a special Japanese word for "spirited away by oni"(yes, Yukari isn't the only one that can do that).
The next part holds true for Touhou, but I'm unsure of the Japanese lore. High ranking oni, or kishin(not to be confused with Sagume Kishin) are dispatched from the Ministry of Right and Wrong to essentially end the lives of those that "have lived a little too long", like Seiga, and bring them before judgment. I'm hard pressed to believe that this kind of killing would be cause for KR to kick in, being essentially being bound by and enforcing the laws instead of causing trouble.
All of that said, her soul is undoubtedly stained in some way. Abductions alone are a pretty bad way to go, even if you survive somehow. Where do you think one goes once abducted? Ponder that for one moment whilst pondering KR.
I agree with this, however, we have to acknowledge that as prep time for Suika, which it functionally is. Allow him to space his veritable army of blasters and bones strategically for a blitz as well and the result still could be in his favor, especially considering his metafighting, which can directly place bones on the decision-making elements of an opponent that are just as capable of hurting as anything else. Then we have an awkward situation where the bones are "inside her" on a meta level, if I'm not mistaken.Drac32Drac said:I think it would be best to change this to a two round battle. Round 1 is starting in normal form and round 2 in mist form.
Sans has not shown anything anywhere near the ability to fully encompass that large of an area with his attacks near instantly. Frisk/Chara wouldn't win if that were possible. Added to that, Sans clearly doesn't have the stamina to fire that many attacks before tiring.Northern Wind00 said:I agree with this, however, we have to acknowledge that as prep time for Suika, which it functionally is. Allow him to space his veritable army of blasters and bones strategically for a blitz as well and the result still could be in his favor, especially considering his metafighting, which can directly place bones on the decision-making elements of an opponent that are just as capable of hurting as anything else. Then we have an awkward situation where the bones are "inside her" on a meta level, if I'm not mistaken.Drac32Drac said:I think it would be best to change this to a two round battle. Round 1 is starting in normal form and round 2 in mist form.
Another relevant calc would be how quickly she can do these things and the fastest relevant attack she's dispursed or partially absorbed. By feats, his blasters might actually be too fast for her.
The circumstances upon which the attack happens are enough to cast reasonable doubt on it simply being a normal attack... at least in my opinion, but either way, we can agree he would tire himself out fighting her before he could kill her if she starts in mist form.Drac32Drac said:So, fourth wall breaking level of reality hax... Suika does that too when she dissolves the health and power bars. And dodging zero-point effects at a distance sounds, problematic at best even with teleportation.
As for not expecting the second attack, well, it's also plausible that he couldn't read the attack because it didn't originate from Frisk... nothing more bizarre than that.
There are a lot of characters who can beat him that aren't that high... one just has to be faster or have certain hax.Drac32Drac said:So... there IS someone that isn't universal, or even solar system level for that matter, that can beat Sans!
Even so, this debate thus far has been enlightening on both sides of the argument. I enjoyed it.DontTalk said:There are a lot of characters who can beat him that aren't that high... one just has to be faster or have certain hax.Drac32Drac said:So... there IS someone that isn't universal, or even solar system level for that matter, that can beat Sans!
With prep, yeah, she can beat him. It's inconclusive straight up. Can we agree to that?Drac32Drac said:So... there IS someone that isn't universal, or even solar system level for that matter, that can beat Sans!
^^^^DontTalk said:There are a lot of characters who can beat him that aren't that high... one just has to be faster or have certain hax.
Overall, as the debate stands now, I'm thinking.Northern Wind00 said:With prep, yeah, she can beat him. It's inconclusive straight up. Can we agree to that?
yeah.Drac32Drac said:Overall, as the debate stands now, I'm thinking.Northern Wind00 said:With prep, yeah, she can beat him. It's inconclusive straight up. Can we agree to that?
Round 1: Inconclusive, but I'd lean towards Sans if I had to pick.
Round 2: Suika
Is this what you mean?