sans' durability

[FRIMI]

sorry if this is actually already written somewhere and I didn't see it, but what is the reasoning for sans being "at least somewhat comparable to zero DETERMINATION Frisk" as it says on his page?

 

[FRIMI]

Bump

 

[Psychomaster35]

Being one of the weakest monsters, Sans would have to downscale from even Froggits in terms of durability, and said Froggits can harm Frisk at 0 Determination, hence, the scaling.

 

[FRIMI]

right, but the question is of durability, not AP. Is Sans not meant to be a glass cannon?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Sans is a glass cannon because his attacks ignore durability. Physically, he's the weakest monster. So his dura still scales to his AP.

 

[FRIMI]

sorry, I still don't see how that follows. I understand his attacks bypassing other people's durability, but why does that effect sans' own durability? Is he not still a 1 hit kill? 1 def and (presumably) 1 hp should mean that he doesn't have durability, right?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Basic physics. If your atracks are 9-A, your durability would have to be some level of 9-A or you'd explode to pieces whenever you attacked.

 

[FRIMI]

But in practice that clearly isn't the case for a lot of fiction, especially in sans' case where his high AP is a direct result of his hax as opposed to his actual attacks

 

[The_Wright_Way]

It's literally the standard we apply to the entire site.

...How does that enhance your argument? I'm not saying he resists his own hax or anything. I'm just saying his AP scales to his durability.

 

[FRIMI]

Huh. I could've sworn I've seen several characters where that isn't the case, like bubble from battle for dream island

 

[The_Wright_Way]

...Actually, Bubble is an exception, looking at his profile. That's... really weird. Does he attack primarily through projectiles or something? Albiet, that's the case for Sans as well...

Regardless, Sans durability downscales from Froggits and Froggit can hurt Frisk just by jumping into them. We really don't have any other ratings we can give him.

 

[FRIMI]

But are there not literal numerical stats that we can scale based off of? Also, even if he scales to froggit, just because froggits method of attack is jumping into them doesn't mean that sans is similar in that respect. We can also say that sans is comparatively weaker than other monsters such as whimsun and moldsmal, each of which are weaker than froggit. Nonetheless, he still seems to exhibit very powerful attacks through the use of hax. I just don't understand why glass cannon characters can't exist

 

[The_Wright_Way]

They can, but only with hax and projectiles. Otherwise, physics dictates they would die from the force of their own attacks.

I'll explain more later, but I'm going to bed now.

 

[FRIMI]

Ok fair enough. It just seems that sans qualifies for hax and projectiles is all

 

[The_Wright_Way]

He does, except he kinda downscales from other monsters for some reason. Personally, I'd be fine putting his durability at unknown, because we really can't accurately quantify it.

 

[FRIMI]

Yeah I'd be fine to settle at that too. Though perhaps put in brackets or parentheses or something that he is somewhere below some scalar. I'd totally be fine with just "unknown" too

 

[Buttersamuri]

I argued for this for a long time on two threads but got nowhere.

I think Wall or Unknown is appropriate. Considering As well that since he downscales to the weakest monster, there are like 3 or 4 I believe that Frisk can one shot even from point 1 in the game. And his attacks all seem to be projectile based which doesn't connect to his physicality

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Honestly, I personally took the whole 'Sans is the weakest monster' as a joke about him being the final boss. Sans is pretty clearly not the physically weakest monster IMO but im de-railing.

 

[Buttersamuri]

He didn't do anything physical in his fight. All his stiff was magic and projectile based. Not suite what makes it clear he isn't the weakest

 

[FRIMI]

what we do know about sans is that he has the weakest attacks of all monsters, dealing 1 damage per hit, but makes up for it through the use of his hax, we know that he has 1 defense point, also the lowest of all monsters, but makes up for it through the use of dodging, and that he has anywhere from 1-9999999 hp, though the majority of fans tend to assume 1 hp. unless we assume that he's on the high end of that range, sans is by all accounts a 1 hit kill. Although we are able to assume the high end of that hp and assume the game refers to his attacks when it says "the weakest monster", there's really no reason to

 

[Buttersamuri]

We should probably ask for other Staff to give their outlook right?

 

[FRIMI]

yes, I agree

 

[FRIMI]

so do I go to one of their message boards to ask them, or is there some way we're meant to do it?

(Sorry I'm still relatively new to the site, and this is the first time I've tried to ask a specific person to join a thread)

 

[Buttersamuri]

I typically request the Supporters/Neutral/Opponents to check the thread out via their message walls.

 

[FRIMI]

ah ok. so are you doing that then?

 

[Buttersamuri]

I hadn't done that but I can Later

 

[Galactagod]

not to go into other peoples business, but would any of this give sans law manipulation since he dosen't follow the stats and rules of the game?

 

[FRIMI]

wdym? he does follow them each of his attacks does 1 damage

 

[Psychomaster35]

Though its a Durability Negation, ignoring invincibility frames at a rapid rate. It doesnt scale to his durability, so it would be kept at least downscaling from 9-B to even Unknow.

 

[Galactagod]

wdym? he does follow them each of his attacks does 1 damage

I only meant at the end of the genocide run where he doesn't take his turn even though every rpg character takes turns.

 

[FRIMI]

right. its like if somebody punched you in the face, and even though it didnt hurt, every moment the fist is in your face it did the force of that punch over and over again until the fist is removed, right?

 

[Therefir]

Isn't there an Amalgamate with 0 stats in attack that can still hurt Frisk?

 

[Buttersamuri]

Snowdrakes Mother has negative Attack. However, not only is that pretty contradicting with Sans being the weakest. But her attacks were made to basically be harmless. They weren't meant to really do damage, which is why the attacks are literally outside the board where the soul is or require no movement to actually dodge as the attacks just drop to the floor. You have to actively propel yourself into the attack to take damage. And that can probably be summed up as game mechanics. This fight is supposed to show how unbelievably weak they are right now. Its likely just a special case.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Sans can deal 1 damage (and this stated in his CHECK), so his AP would be higher than Undyne's house Explosion, that didn't even hurt Frisk, and Because his Def is equal to his Atk, his Durability would also be Small building level.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Negatory. Frisk Stat scaling to anyone else should not exist. Frisks stats work vastly different to monster stats. Frisks in general stuff works vastly different. Monsters having thousands of health, but also dying in a few shot. Frisk have 29 health, but dying way slower. We shouldn't scale across Frisks stats as their stats work way to differently

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Sans still has 1 Def, which is equal to his AP, which makes it Small building level

 

[Buttersamuri]

Still canonically the weakest monster. And frisk can one shot several monsters. Yet these monsters are still canonically above Sans. How can he scale to something he gets one shot by. Not only one shot. But several monsters above him get one shot as well

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Well his AP (which is equal to his Durability) does more damage to Frisk then Undyne's house's Explosion, which would make it Small building level.

 

[Buttersamuri]

No it doesn't. His attack doesn't have anything to do with his physicality as his attacks are magic and projectile based. None of it Akins to physicality. As well, his doing 1 damage is actually due to bypassing durability. He will always do 1 damage no matter what you are wearing and what defense level frisk is at. So his attack is more a hax as well. Either that or taking advantage of Game mechanic. Regardless. It shouldn't scale to his durability. His weakness is he is such a glass canon that makes up for it with speed and Haxs

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Well then he would be unknown physically, and small building level with magic, or something like that,Alphys also gets the same thing