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Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

The existence of Dark Wing seems like an attempt by Akita Shoten to tell us that the multiverse exists and that the stories they publish are parallel universes in the multiverse of this franchise. So well I'm sure they are aware of all the discussions we fans of this franchise have about these kinds of topics.
 
The worst part for me is that it's not like Kuru has ran out of creative and interesting ideas (as seen with TO), it's just a shame he doesn't seem to put that effort into his primary material.
 
anyone who's read 5 consecutive chapters of ND would agree the ending will likely be mediocre.

And I personally don't want another kurumanga, if it took 20 years to tell what really should have been 5 year story, then any continuation is pointless.

Unless of course it's pre-written and he hires an artist to draw it for him.
After Volume 3 and this turning into a Sanctuary Arc 3.0 was already a bad sign, but hey, some fans were always hoping that this was just the beginning and didn't cover much of the story, and that Kurumada would use the time travel as an excuse to show the Hades Saga he always wanted without being rushed by the publisher.

But 16 years later and this was never an epic Holy War (Alone disappeared from the story for almost 100 chapters, Sasha barely appears in the end, and the Specters were treated like garbage), and it was all about characters running up and down stairs and character introductions (only a few of these were actually interesting). And also 16 years and 102 chapters later, and there are only two interesting fights (Shaka vs Shijima and Tenma vs Asclepius, and they all ended basically in nothing, because Tenma doesn't defeat his opponent and Shaka and Shijima just say goodbye as friends), so it even fails as a nekketsu manga.

Even without the rushed ending and 16 years of publishing this, Next Dimension would still fail as a good sequel, because this story only feels like a transition to something more interesting and worst of all, we don't even know if this will really continue or Kurumada will end it this way. Also, even if there would be a sequel, it is a fact that after 16 years, the way Kurumada publishes his manga will not change and it will probably take him more than 10 years to finish this new manga. So the best of Kurumada's work will always be the original manga, because any sequel is doomed to failure due to his writing problems and the time it takes to publish new chapters.

Okada who also had several of these problems with Assassin (a manga that also had a rushed ending and feels like a waste of time, although not as much as with Next Dimension, because well it was only a few years and not 16, and had more entertaining fights), is now doing better with Requiem, a series that feels like a true continuation and a path to the end of the story we saw in Episode.G.
The worst part for me is that it's not like Kuru has ran out of creative and interesting ideas (as seen with TO), it's just a shame he doesn't seem to put that effort into his primary material.
Yes, Kurumada has interesting ideas and we can see some of them in some spin-offs, but it is certainly better that he cedes the development and drawing of these ideas to another mangaka if he wants to continue with this project.
 
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Speaking of the Kurumada timeline, the end of Next Dimension and what happens to Seiya is certainly going to break the canon Episode G theories once and for all (no way Kurumada is ending the story as a whole with Seiya still being affected by Hades' curse).
I imagine Kurumada is going to give us a vague open end kind of ending with no real answer on anything.

Though I did hear he is the one that changed sho ending with having it introduce lemur again.

I consider them separate timelines at the moment.
 
Yeah in regards to the quality of the ending I doubt anyone has any high expectations considering the overall quality of the ND manga. It honestly feels like a filler arc.
In regards to GA, I feel like Okada went about doing things the wrong way. G should've immediately led to GR, while GA could've been a story told through gaidens.
 
FlIjUe0XwAAW1aa
 
From the images, it seems that Ecarlate realizes that there is something strange with Odysseus, probably thanks to this is that he defied him and did not betray Athena.
what is the tier of odysseus?
Unknown, his abilities are not focused on destruction (he even mentions that he has no attack techniques) and it seems that he is only using some of Asclepius' powers, who resurrects him and will keep him alive until he takes full control of Odysseus to escape from his prison in Tartarus. Also, Odysseus is only testing the loyalty of the Saints and healing them to prepare them for this battle.
Should be the same tier as the other golds. he is a 7th sense user after all. The interesting thing about him is his abilities, not his stats so much
Odysseus is only a Silver Saint, not a Gold Saint, so he has no 7th sense mastery, he was the strongest Saint of his time, in a Sanctuary where the Gold Saints were still children, so his power is not impressive at all, even his healing abilities were mediocre and he only healed using medicinal plants and standard medical knowledge. In the present, Asclepius still does not take control of his body (the possession is about 50% in his journey through Sanctuary, although it is likely that in the last season of ND, Asclepius has started to take full control of his body and hence the change in his appearance) and is just Odysseus taking advantage of some of his powers from this Saint, such as healing with magical powers instead of medicinal plants, although he still seems quite mediocre in this aspect, as he has only cured some minor problems, compared to Asclepius who can resurrect the dead and rebuild a body from its dna.

In short, Odysseus is just a Silver Saint who is taking advantage of some of the abilities and powers of Asclepius, the most powerful Saint of all time.
 
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Dark Wing - Chapter 20.


Quick summary:
Shoichiro used 1% of his power and defeated Eito, who was abandoned by everyone and only had to plead for his death to Shoichiro, who decided he was not worth killing.

Some interesting details of this chapter:
  • Wynver has a new technique, Greatest Decision (グレイテストディシジョン).
  • Yoruhime describes this technique as a concentrated version of the Greatest Caution.
  • Zhu adds something extra, and describes that Shoichiro incorporated parts of Sojiro's Galaxian Exposion (the galaxy-destroying fist) and Eito's Excalibur (the cutting wave) into this technique. Based on the execution we can see that he concentrates his cosmos like a galaxy in his fist, similar to how the Galaxian Explosion is executed, and it is a cutting wave in a straight line like Excalibur. Therefore, Shoichiro can learn and analyze techniques after seeing them and incorporates qualities of these techniques into his attack.
  • The Greatest Decision (even when Shoichiro is weakened) is so powerful that it can easily destroy the Gold Cloth and not only that, because as Eito describes this attack also pierced the cosmos that his master gave him, therefore it pierced the defense of the Gold Cloth amplified by the cosmos of a god.
  • Zhu can create portals to travel directly to the Underworld, in this case it would be Elysium, for the moment it is unknown if it is an exclusive ability of her or it is a general ability of the Specters in this story.

It seems that Shoichiro (as the protagonist of a isekai and harem manga) is the strongest protagonist in a series of this franchise in the first half of its story... because usually protagonists only stand out at the end of their story with a momentary power up that elevates them to the level of gods.

Save this image for the end of Next Dimension and if Kurumada reveals that Saint Seiya does not continue with a new manga.
5AchEfS.jpg
 
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From the images, it seems that Ecarlate realizes that there is something strange with Odysseus, probably thanks to this is that he defied him and did not betray Athena.

Unknown, his abilities are not focused on destruction (he even mentions that he has no attack techniques) and it seems that he is only using some of Asclepius' powers, who resurrects him and will keep him alive until he takes full control of Odysseus to escape from his prison in Tartarus. Also, Odysseus is only testing the loyalty of the Saints and healing them to prepare them for this battle.

Odysseus is only a Silver Saint, not a Gold Saint, so he has no 7th sense mastery, he was the strongest Saint of his time, in a Sanctuary where the Gold Saints were still children, so his power is not impressive at all, even his healing abilities were mediocre and he only healed using medicinal plants and standard medical knowledge. In the present, Asclepius still does not take control of his body (the possession is about 50% in his journey through Sanctuary, although it is likely that in the last season of ND, Asclepius has started to take full control of his body and hence the change in his appearance) and is just Odysseus taking advantage of some of his powers from this Saint, such as healing with magical powers instead of medicinal plants, although he still seems quite mediocre in this aspect, as he has only cured some minor problems, compared to Asclepius who can resurrect the dead and rebuild a body from its dna.

In short, Odysseus is just a Silver Saint who is taking advantage of some of the abilities and powers of Asclepius, the most powerful Saint of all time.
I bet there will be people trying to upload that event of the universe shaking all over Odysseus and at that time I'm ready to refute
 
It actually says he used 1%?
No, it's a joke I read on another forum, because of how ridiculously easy he beat Eito. Basically, Shoichiro treated Eito like cannon fodder, and Wynver, even weakened by his previous fight with his brother and the attack he received from the Demiurgos when controlling the Sagittarius Cloth, was always stronger than Eito throughout the fight.
 
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I doubt that's the case since the manga and Kurumada's map always portrayed them to be on the same landmass, or at least not for all the prisons (because apparently the website says the 6th Prison was beyond spacetime, so maybe that one might be but even then)

Although even the prisons don't really have any indication of being entire universes in size that I can remember to be 2-C
I was looking around and some stuff going around on Facebook, it seems the underworld has no size described as infinite, right here.

Firstly, the size of the underworld is not infinite. Most quotes that say that this kingdom has infinite size, in the original talk about the eternity of the kingdom of lands that compared to the human world will one day cease to exist, about the philosophy that hell, Elysium (paradise), will be eternally there for souls.

Charon claiming that the hell of the underworld is infinite
そ う だ こ こ か は は 八 八 つ 獄 つ の 十 の の ... そ て 四 つ 圏 う て つ な く 暗 く て し し しな い い 地獄 十 壕 し 四 四 四 の 圏 い う と つ も な く く 果 し な い 地獄 地獄 の

scan



圏 壕jigoku no sekai ga"

This phrase depending on the Kanji can mean an infinite space, for example

てしな果い"宇宙" ( https://tangorin.com/kanji/宙 )⇨ Hateshinai uchuu ⇨ infinite space / universe

However, that is not the meaning here, as Acheron is talking about the torment of hell, and how hell is endless, divided into eight prisons for judging the souls of the dead, hence the sense of "infinity" is a time endless, or as the kanji itself also means "evarlasting" and "暗く" for despair, then we have:

That's right. From here you are in the realm of Hell, which is extremely hopeless and eternal, divided into eight prisons, three valleys, ten malebolges and four spheres.

Malebolges are the "ditches of evil" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge)

Going to the Elysium entry phrase contextually the "infinity" does not refer to size but rather the sense of something that will last forever as this is what Thanatos and Hypnos and the other underlings of hades keep bragging about the nature of life after death, as above.

1-言ったはずずだここは神話の時代より血で汚されたことのない実王だだ偮
( )⇨ I already said, this place is the territory of the Lord of the Underworld (Hades), and it has never been untainted by blood since the age of myth

2- "あそこ ハ ハ デス 様 真 の 肉体 肉体 が の より 眠っ て れる 場所" and "ただし の 眠り この ヒュプノス 与え 永遠 眠り だ" (http://imgur.com/ a/DaVIhlr) ⇨ "This is where the true body of the Lord of the Underworld (Hades) has rested since the age of mythology." and "This is no ordinary sleep. I have placed her in an eternal sleep"

3-There is also Mainstay's quote from Poseidon attached in the "Poseidon's Arc" section, where she elaborates further on the issue of Gods seeking to elevate eternal realms, because the matter of the universe has a life limit.

In addition to the relationships about the passage of time, and because they are eternal, we can also remember that in the beginning of the Next Dimension the fields of Elysium were moved to the earth and could fit there.

Seiya against Hades in the Elysium field (), Alone, Hades' host body from 240 years ago, being remembered by Hades himself from when Tenma was his friend, and himself in the Elysiums ( ). Dohko and Shion receiving information that Hades was in Elysium (), and Dohko was going to kill him now (http://imgur.com/a/My8oVye). Eventually, we are shown that not only were the fields of Elysium teleported to earth, but also Hades' shrine with his sword (http://imgur.com/a/238jilW), and also his castle (http://imgur .com/a/zQEp1uS ).


Elísios is not infinite and has never been said to have an infinite SIZE, who says that is because they do not know how to interpret a mere scan

アケローン河の 遥か上流... レーテ河の彼方に あるという無限の野

死後 神に 選はれた者だけが 来ることを 許される楽園...

飢えも争いも 苦しみも 悲しみもない....

一切の苦痛や 煩悩から解放された悠久の浄土...

https://imgur.com/a/FMn4P32


"Infinite Prairies" wasn't translated wrong, I ask you to understand that, it's right, but it doesn't mean size, but time. As you can see the meaning of the scan is always denoting "Eternity" as there in Kanji 悠久 (ゆうきゅう - Yūkyū) which is a conjunctive form of the terminology "Eternity", and therefore the first kanji that it's 無限 (むげん Mugen) which means infinity, infinity, eternal, unlimited, it should have been translated as Eternal, just seeing an "infinite" already puts infinite size because it doesn't know how to interpret a scan. So, here's the translation accommodated for those unable to interpret a scan:

アケロ アケロ 河 の 遥か ... レ レ テ 河 の 彼方 に と 無限 の 死 後 に 選は れ 者 が 来る を 許さ 楽園 飢え 争い 苦しみ も も ない ... ... .

Eternal fields said to lie above the River Aqueronte...And beyond the River Lethe. A Paradise (Elysium) where only those chosen by the Gods can go after death... A place without hunger, pain, sadness, or wars. A perpetual (eternal) paradise free from all suffering caused by worldly desires...

Prairies in this case are fields, the author of the Brazilian translation put a very good word to highlight, but I decided to use the simplest one.
https://imgur.com/a/uAd8CrC


Here are all the Inflections of the kanji 永遠【えいえん, Eien; Eternal】

https://imgur.com/xz6wOpO

What is Forma-TE in Japanese.

https://tangorin.com/definition/永遠

The inflected forms of Infinite/Infinity/Eternity kanji 無限【むげんmugen】

https://imgur.com/a/xTgQal8

https://tangorin.com/definition/無限

To be perfectly specific, Elysium's fields aren't infinite in size.

@Alonik
 
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Why would Kuru write eternal and infinite as two different worlds with the intention that you interpret them the same way? That’s just illogical.
 
God this format is disgustingly bad. Anyway the specter of Hades call it endless in the raws as the official viz translation calls it endless. Seiya refers to it as endless. The description of the Elysium is infinite with the kanji also being there
 
Why would Kuru write eternal and infinite as two different worlds with the intention that you interpret them the same way? That’s just illogical.
You will know, right? Kuramada is the guy who works the most with hyperboles, even in boxing manga the guy uses exaggerations, lol

I just want to argue about it :3
 
I was looking around and some stuff going around on Facebook, it seems the underworld has no size described as infinite, right here.

Firstly, the size of the underworld is not infinite. Most quotes that say that this kingdom has infinite size, in the original talk about the eternity of the kingdom of lands that compared to the human world will one day cease to exist, about the philosophy that hell, Elysium (paradise), will be eternally there for souls.

Charon claiming that the hell of the underworld is infinite
そ う だ こ こ か は は 八 八 つ 獄 つ の 十 の の ... そ て 四 つ 圏 う て つ な く 暗 く て し し しな い い 地獄 十 壕 し 四 四 四 の 圏 い う と つ も な く く 果 し な い 地獄 地獄 の

scan



圏 壕jigoku no sekai ga"

This phrase depending on the Kanji can mean an infinite space, for example

てしな果い"宇宙" ( https://tangorin.com/kanji/宙 )⇨ Hateshinai uchuu ⇨ infinite space / universe

However, that is not the meaning here, as Acheron is talking about the torment of hell, and how hell is endless, divided into eight prisons for judging the souls of the dead, hence the sense of "infinity" is a time endless, or as the kanji itself also means "evarlasting" and "暗く" for despair, then we have:

That's right. From here you are in the realm of Hell, which is extremely hopeless and eternal, divided into eight prisons, three valleys, ten malebolges and four spheres.

Malebolges are the "ditches of evil" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge)

Going to the Elysium entry phrase contextually the "infinity" does not refer to size but rather the sense of something that will last forever as this is what Thanatos and Hypnos and the other underlings of hades keep bragging about the nature of life after death, as above.

1-言ったはずずだここは神話の時代より血で汚されたことのない実王だだ偮
( )⇨ I already said, this place is the territory of the Lord of the Underworld (Hades), and it has never been untainted by blood since the age of myth

2- "あそこ ハ ハ デス 様 真 の 肉体 肉体 が の より 眠っ て れる 場所" and "ただし の 眠り この ヒュプノス 与え 永遠 眠り だ" (http://imgur.com/ a/DaVIhlr) ⇨ "This is where the true body of the Lord of the Underworld (Hades) has rested since the age of mythology." and "This is no ordinary sleep. I have placed her in an eternal sleep"

3-There is also Mainstay's quote from Poseidon attached in the "Poseidon's Arc" section, where she elaborates further on the issue of Gods seeking to elevate eternal realms, because the matter of the universe has a life limit.

In addition to the relationships about the passage of time, and because they are eternal, we can also remember that in the beginning of the Next Dimension the fields of Elysium were moved to the earth and could fit there.

Seiya against Hades in the Elysium field (), Alone, Hades' host body from 240 years ago, being remembered by Hades himself from when Tenma was his friend, and himself in the Elysiums ( ). Dohko and Shion receiving information that Hades was in Elysium (), and Dohko was going to kill him now (http://imgur.com/a/My8oVye). Eventually, we are shown that not only were the fields of Elysium teleported to earth, but also Hades' shrine with his sword (http://imgur.com/a/238jilW), and also his castle (http://imgur .com/a/zQEp1uS ).


Elísios is not infinite and has never been said to have an infinite SIZE, who says that is because they do not know how to interpret a mere scan



死後 神に 選はれた者だけが 来ることを 許される楽園...

飢えも争いも 苦しみも 悲しみもない....

一切の苦痛や 煩悩から解放された悠久の浄土...

https://imgur.com/a/FMn4P32


"Infinite Prairies" wasn't translated wrong, I ask you to understand that, it's right, but it doesn't mean size, but time. As you can see the meaning of the scan is always denoting "Eternity" as there in Kanji 悠久 (ゆうきゅう - Yūkyū) which is a conjunctive form of the terminology "Eternity", and therefore the first kanji that it's 無限 (むげん Mugen) which means infinity, infinity, eternal, unlimited, it should have been translated as Eternal, just seeing an "infinite" already puts infinite size because it doesn't know how to interpret a scan. So, here's the translation accommodated for those unable to interpret a scan:



Eternal fields said to lie above the River Aqueronte...And beyond the River Lethe. A Paradise (Elysium) where only those chosen by the Gods can go after death... A place without hunger, pain, sadness, or wars. A perpetual (eternal) paradise free from all suffering caused by worldly desires...

Prairies in this case are fields, the author of the Brazilian translation put a very good word to highlight, but I decided to use the simplest one.
https://imgur.com/a/uAd8CrC


Here are all the Inflections of the kanji 永遠【えいえん, Eien; Eternal】

https://imgur.com/xz6wOpO

What is Forma-TE in Japanese.

https://tangorin.com/definition/永遠

The inflected forms of Infinite/Infinity/Eternity kanji 無限【むげんmugen】

https://imgur.com/a/xTgQal8

https://tangorin.com/definition/無限

To be perfectly specific, Elysium's fields aren't infinite in size.

Already been debunked bud
 
You will know, right? Kuramada is the guy who works the most with hyperboles, even in boxing manga the guy uses exaggerations, lol

I just want to argue about it :3
Actually he puts a lot of thought into his words, and researches before writing. Many statements on it
 
You will know, right? Kuramada is the guy who works the most with hyperboles, even in boxing manga the guy uses exaggerations, lol

I just want to argue about it :3
I’m just saying your interpretation of the text that the mention of eternity and infinite both referring to time makes very little sense in isolation. Even if hyperbole, the mention of infinite should refer to the size of the fields.
 




Gonna address the top part mainly since it might bring up some annoyance. The Specter of Hades calls it “Endless” so while not called infinite it’s called endless


Kanji for Endless/Boundless used (果てしない) https://www.deepl.com/en/translator-mobile#ja/en/果てしない





https://jisho.org/search/果てしない



Which is different from the kanji for Infinite (commonly 無限) https://www.deepl.com/en/translator-mobile#en/ja/Infinite



https://jisho.org/search/infinity



Which is also different from the kanji for Eternity(永遠) https://www.deepl.com/en/translator-mobile#ja/en/永遠



https://jisho.org/search/eternity
 
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