Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[Hasty12345]

The concept of retcons exists and most of the major plot inconsistencies for G come from ND and works written after G finished from what I can tell.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Episode G was never part of the main story. The differences between Episode G and Next Dimension are irreconcilable and honestly feel a lot more like Kurumada just telling an untold story in his world than retconning anything from an established different timeline.

Episode G: First time Sanctuary had the Chrysos Sword was Chronos giving it to Saga to kill Athena and he even had to explain it’s god killing power to Saga

Main story: Even the 18th century Pope already had the Chrysos Sword and knows they can use it to kill Athena

Important things like this make them incompatible.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

That's a retcon, but that doesn't really counter it literally being called 正統

 

[foxhunter]

Input for this thread https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-yhwach-vs-saint-virgo-saint-seiya.145234/

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

@SSJGeminiJJ @Lancelot_de_Cancer Do you believe that Cosmo between each work in the franchise is portrayed differently?

The basic concept of cosmos, as the destructive capabilities of this power is similar, not so other concepts such as the senses that are different depending on the interpretation of the author and others as for example in TLC the cosmos can be sealed and even Saint can lose the ability to use his cosmos, something impossible in the canon because the cosmos is life itself and it is impossible for a human being to lose his cosmos in any way, unless they die and even this can be overcome with the 8th Sense.

Shaka was reduced to a Soul after the AE clash symbolizing his transcendence over the laws of death (Type 5 Immortality) because normal souls by the laws of the Universe (or maybe Hades) are forced into the UW with their minds wipes and controlled. That didn't happen to Shaka. He lost his body and never regenerated one, and saying he is "Alive" part of the paradox os the 8th sense. he is both alive and dead and neither alive or dead. He can be neither, or either or. Hes alive in the sense that he has control over his soul where the universal laws ahs no bearing on him, but he has no physical body even in the UW. hes just a mere soul there.

This is never mentioned like this in the manga, in the manga the souls do not lose their minds and are not controlled either, that's why Saga, Deathmask and Aphro can think in the Underworld and can even negotiate with Ker for a new life. Read the manga of Destiny to understand this, even in the classic manga this is also clear, where the dead are free to think and can mention their sins in front of the Leader of the Underworld during their trial in the Court of Silence (even Markino believes that Seiya and Shun are simply dead and explains to them that a soul had sneezed during the trial and was torn apart by Lune) and Orphee even negotiated with Hades to resurrect his girlfriend and him, so that they could return to the world of the living.

So, can someone explain this to me?

The term 正統 in Japanese means "Legitimate" and is used to show a story is canon/takes place in the same universe. For example, in Dragon Ball Super, the manga is stated to be 正統続編 (Legitimate/orthodox Sequel) to show its canon. Same with The Seven Deadly Sins: Four Knights of the Apocalypse, which was described the same way. Even Kamen Rider W: Fuuto PI is described as 正統 to note it's canon to the original live-action show. Worst Gaiden Skull is stated to be 正統外伝 (legitimate gaiden) to show it's canon to the Crows/Worst universe. Andro Melos is stated to be a 正統外伝 (legitimate gaiden) to the Ultraman's main universe. Each use of this word is the same as the English word canon/canonical

Next Dimension, Episode G and Episode G Assassin are all stated to be 正統. In vol 1 of Next Dimension, it's stated "の正統なる続編が始動!" (The legitimate sequel of Saint Seiya is about to begin)

In Episode G and Episode G: Assassin, they're stated の正統外伝 ("Saint Seiya" dominates the world with a new legitimate gaiden!)

By comparison, Lost Canvas is never described as 正統, just 外伝 (Gaiden or side story/another story). Gigantomachia

So why don't we accept G as canon, besides "it wasn't written by Kuromada" which, seeing the other examples means not that much, and the supporting evidence of how the word is used means it should be considered canon?

The word legitimate is never used as a synonym of canon, it is just a word to indicate that this work is official, but this does not mean that it is part of the canonical universe. Something that even Kurumada has demonstrated with the multiple contradictions to Episode.G, because it is simply a work where he doesn't even seem to have participated in a relevant way.

Episode. G along with TLC (work where Kurumada really participated, at least in its origin concept and during the first chapters) is at best only a parallel universe within the multiverse of this franchise, since the publisher Akita Shoten seems to insist on the concept of the multiverse within the Saint Seiya license they own, even we have already seen stories where the concept of the multiverse is a central part of their plots as Assassin/Requiem, Dark Wing and Kurumada Suikoden Heroes. But this does not mean that all the stories or manga are part of the same universe and we simply have multiple universes within this franchise developed by multiple authors, so each of these is basically its own universe.

In fact, even if we take those shown in Kurumada Suikoden Heroes, the Saint Seiya multiverse is not only composed of multiple universes related to Saint Seiya, and Kurumada's other works, such as Bt'X, Fuma no Kojiro, Ramei no Zanji, Ring ni Kakero, etc., are also included in this multiverse.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

『聖闘士星矢』の正統な続編『冥王神話』2シリーズが電子化！ | ダ・ヴィンチWeb

いまだに根強い人気を誇る『聖闘士星矢』シリーズ。その正統なる続編である、『NEXT DIMENSION 冥王神話』と『THE LOST CANVAS 冥王神話』がともに電子書籍になりました！ 2つの作品はともに初代『聖闘士星矢』から約240年前の物語で、『NEXT DIMENSION』は…

ddnavi.com

It's interesting that a few seconds of scrolling google already leads to a Japanese news article where ND and TLC were both simultaneously described together as 正統 stories, clearly showing that it simply means that something is official instead of outright part of the main timeline, which like TLC here, Episode G very obviously isn't.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Dark Wing - Chapter 19



Wynver is so stupidly powerful in this manga, that even weakened and wounded, he proves superior to Capricorn empowered by the Demiurge.

The preview of the next magazine indicates that chapter 20 is published in December and reminds that the second chapter of Rirese de Poseidon will be published in the Champion RED of January.

---

A poster for the new live-action film and a teaser trailer have been released.

Teser Trailer:

 

[StekFence]

Think it’s gonna be any good?

 

[AerrowStorm1]

The word legitimate is never used as a synonym of canon, it is just a word to indicate that this work is official, but this does not mean that it is part of the canonical universe. Something that even Kurumada has demonstrated with the multiple contradictions to Episode.G, because it is simply a work where he doesn't even seem to have participated in a relevant way.

I literally listed several examples pf it being used as a synonym for canon, though and compared it to works that aren't 正統 but are part of the same franchise.

For example, Shin Devilman is made by Go Nagai and Dynamic Pro, but it's not described as 正統, only Lady Devilman and Devilman Saga are. Dragon Ball Super is described as 正統 but not GT or Heroes.

『聖闘士星矢』の正統な続編『冥王神話』2シリーズが電子化！ | ダ・ヴィンチWeb

いまだに根強い人気を誇る『聖闘士星矢』シリーズ。その正統なる続編である、『NEXT DIMENSION 冥王神話』と『THE LOST CANVAS 冥王神話』がともに電子書籍になりました！ 2つの作品はともに初代『聖闘士星矢』から約240年前の物語で、『NEXT DIMENSION』は…

ddnavi.com

It's interesting that a few seconds of scrolling google already leads to a Japanese news article where ND and TLC were both simultaneously described together as 正統 stories, clearly showing that it simply means that something is official instead of outright part of the main timeline, which like TLC here, Episode G very obviously isn't.

This contradicts literally every other news article which describes Next Dimension as 正統 and Lost Canvas as another story or Gaiden.

I've literally shown multiple examples of 正統 literally being used to determine Canon.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I literally listed several examples pf it being used as a synonym for canon, though and compared it to works that aren't 正統 but are part of the same franchise.

For example, Shin Devilman is made by Go Nagai and Dynamic Pro, but it's not described as 正統, only Lady Devilman and Devilman Saga are. Dragon Ball Super is described as 正統 but not GT or Heroes.

This contradicts literally every other news article which describes Next Dimension as 正統 and Lost Canvas as another story or Gaiden.

I've literally shown multiple examples of 正統 literally being used to determine Canon.

Literally the Japanese themselves also use the word legitimate to describe TLC, which is also not part of the main universe or the universe written by Kurumada, even if Kurumada participated in TLC and this work was planned to be part of the universe as a different point of view of the old Holy War, but as we know due to the delays in the publication of Next Dimension it ended up becoming its own universe, but still we can see Kurumada's contributions to this story with the names of Tenma, Alone and Sasha, and the background of Tenma, Sasha and Alone, which is similar in the last chapters of Next Dimension.

That word is not a synonym for canon, it is rather a simple synonym for something official, in fact the Japanese don't even have a word for canon, they don't even understand it in the same way as western authors do. The Lady Devilman and the Devilman Saga are considered part of the universe written by Go Nagai, because this mangaka wrote and participated in that work, and even they do not contradict what is exposed in Devilman (since with the concept he introduced of the universe or world rebooting multiple times it is almost impossible that these stories contradict each other), something that does not happen with Saint Seiya, where Kurumada does not participate in that work (he even said clearly that he did not contribute any idea to the mangaka) and clearly contradicts it with his new works, which are the true prequel (Episode Zero, Origin and Destiny) and sequel (Next Dimension) of this manga, that is why it is not part of this universe.

Kurumada simply decided that those manga (TLC and Episode. G) are not part of his universe, that's why he doesn't take them into account when writing his story and contradicts them with each new work he publishes (presenting events and concepts completely different from the ones shown in those manga and literally never references the events of those stories), but to compensate for this the concept of the multiverse was introduced in the franchise to give validity to these stories and they are simply an alternative universe within the multiverse, that's why they have been publishing stories whose plot revolves around the multiverse and how there are countless universes in this, so each story we see is just a universe within this multiverse.

Basically, since the concept of the multiverse was introduced in the franchise by Akita Shoten and Kurumada these canon questions have lost importance and all the stories are part of the canon, although some of these stories happen in different universes, all these canon topics currently only exist to irritate some fans, because they don't really contribute anything and there are simply differences that are part of each universe. In addition, even the anime and manga of Dragon Ball Super are considered canon, but within the Wiki they are considered separate universes, although Saint Seiya is a little better than this, because really all the universes exist in the same multiverse and are not completely different continuities as with the manga and anime of Super.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Think it’s gonna be any good?

The visual aspect of the movie doesn't look bad, although the effects look pretty cheap and it looks like a low budget production, and the story from what I've heard will take quite a few elements from the first season of Knights of the Zodiac, with the technological Black Saints as enemies and a human as the villain (in some forums it was said to be a woman) who seeks to extract Saori's divine cosmos. Maybe it could be an entertaining action movie, and I'm guessing it won't be as bad as Dragon Ball Evolution.

 

[StekFence]

and I'm guessing it won't be as bad as Dragon Ball Evolution.

Yet another ss w???

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I literally listed several examples pf it being used as a synonym for canon, though and compared it to works that aren't 正統 but are part of the same franchise.

For example, Shin Devilman is made by Go Nagai and Dynamic Pro, but it's not described as 正統, only Lady Devilman and Devilman Saga are. Dragon Ball Super is described as 正統 but not GT or Heroes.



This contradicts literally every other news article which describes Next Dimension as 正統 and Lost Canvas as another story or Gaiden.

I've literally shown multiple examples of 正統 literally being used to determine Canon.

It doesn’t contradict anything because those examples don’t indicate it’s verbiage for “canon” just because it was simply used to reference supposedly canon works as official, since the similarity to these other media for Episode G and TLC are that they are also official products, and it has nothing to do with canonicity.

Just because GT and Heroes don’t have promotional material calling them 正統 doesn’t mean they aren’t, this is basically an argument from silence fallacy.

That same news article I sent literally even goes in detail about the obvious contrast in timelines between TLC and ND, yet it doesn’t neglect to describe both as 正統, this clearly indicates it just means official.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

That word is not a synonym for canon, it is rather a simple synonym for something official, in fact the Japanese don't even have a word for canon, they don't even understand it in the same way as western authors do.

I disagree. As shown in my examples, it is OFTEN used to represent something that takes place in the same universe.

Just because GT and Heroes don’t have promotional material calling them 正統 doesn’t mean they aren’t, this is basically an argument from silence fallacy.

Except, again. Super is explictly called 正統 whereas GT is only promoted as 続編 Which means continuation. In fact, doing research, TLC is only referred to as 正統 here on DDNavi's promotion of the Ebooks, and other websites promoting the same ebooks don't have them. In comparison, a quick look at google shows 正統 being used to describe Next Dimension and not TLC including Saint Seiya's official page. So far, the only times I can find official pages using 正統 are for Next Dimension (to the point it's part of the series description), Saintia Sho and G. By comparison, TLC is only called "アナザーストーリー" (Another Story)

That's a clear difference in the promotion. And as I said, there's clear examples of 正統 meaning canon.

Here's Todd Blankenship even pointing out "Canonical" is a valid way to translate 正統 because that's the way Americans use the same concept the Japanese word is trying to convey.

 

[StekFence]

『聖闘士星矢』の正統な続編『冥王神話』2シリーズが電子化！ | ダ・ヴィンチWeb

いまだに根強い人気を誇る『聖闘士星矢』シリーズ。その正統なる続編である、『NEXT DIMENSION 冥王神話』と『THE LOST CANVAS 冥王神話』がともに電子書籍になりました！ 2つの作品はともに初代『聖闘士星矢』から約240年前の物語で、『NEXT DIMENSION』は…

ddnavi.com

It's interesting that a few seconds of scrolling google already leads to a Japanese news article where ND and TLC were both simultaneously described together as 正統 stories, clearly showing that it simply means that something is official instead of outright part of the main timeline, which like TLC here, Episode G very obviously isn't.

That can still allow for them both to be canon, and in the same greater setting though.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Except, again. Super is explictly called 正統 whereas GT is only promoted as 続編 Which means continuation. In fact, doing research, TLC is only referred to as 正統 here on DDNavi's promotion of the Ebooks, and other websites promoting the same ebooks don't have them. In comparison, a quick look at google shows 正統 being used to describe Next Dimension and not TLC including Saint Seiya's official page. So far, the only times I can find official pages using 正統 are for Next Dimension (to the point it's part of the series description), Saintia Sho and G. By comparison, TLC is only called "アナザーストーリー" (Another Story)

That's a clear difference in the promotion. And as I said, there's clear examples of 正統 meaning canon.

Here's Todd Blankenship even pointing out "Canonical" is a valid way to translate 正統 because that's the way Americans use the same concept the Japanese word is trying to convey.

Again, literally all of what you said is a complete argument from silence fallacy and doesn’t disprove DDNavi showing what this phrase means and that anything official can be considered “legitimate”.

When has an official Saint Seiya page (not a publisher or reporter or promoter) used 正統 for Episode G then? I only saw Kurumada Pro explicitly placing it in the category of works not part of the canon timeline.

Even Okada on Twitter clearly indicated that Episode G isn’t some set in stone canonical prequel, when he says that it’s up to the fans if they want to connect it to the original story’s universe.


Herms is literally only speculating in that that thread based off the preconceived notion that Super is canon and deciding that “legitimate” must mean that, an idea that’s clearly not the case.

The funny thing is using it for the Dragon Ball Super Manga only further indicates it doesn’t mean canon, because contrary to a misconception that’s stuck due to the Anime ending while the manga continued, the DBS manga isn’t canon.

That can still allow for them both to be canon, and in the same greater setting though.

How can TLC Episode G ND possibly exist in the same timeline?

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Again, literally all of what you said is a complete argument from silence fallacy and doesn’t disprove DDNavi showing what this phrase means and that anything official can be considered “legitimate”.

When has an official Saint Seiya page (not a publisher or reporter or promoter) used 正統 for Episode G then? I only saw Kurumada Pro explicitly placing it in the category of works not part of the canon timeline.



Herms is literally only speculating in that that thread based off the preconceived notion that Super is canon and deciding that “legitimate” must mean that, an idea that’s clearly not the case.

The funny thing is using it for the Dragon Ball Super Manga only further indicates it doesn’t mean canon, because contrary to a misconception that’s stuck due to the Anime ending while the manga continued, the DBS manga isn’t canon.

So first off, it's not an argument from silence, as I'm pointing out that it's being described in DIFFERENT TERMS EXPLICTLY than the other works using 正統. . I'm not just saying "正統 is never used" I'm saying "On the same page they use 正統 for Next Dimension, they use a different word for TLC, and ithis is consistent across all media."

That map just shows things the things Kurumada made himself and things other writers made. It even links Overture to ND as "The Prologue of a new battle" indicating they may or may not be connected

The manga IS canon to Dragon Ball Super, like, that's inarguable at this point since: The official timeline calls it canon, the manga and the movies tie into each other (to the point the manga literally tells you to watch the movies for the complete story), Toriyama has said the manga is more on track than the anime, the manga is officially stated to be the sequel to the Dragon Ball Manga, and Toriyama called it the perfect continuation of his work.

Like, both these things are pretty obvious.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

So first off, it's not an argument from silence, as I'm pointing out that it's being described in DIFFERENT TERMS EXPLICTLY than the other works using 正統. . I'm not just saying "正統 is never used" I'm saying "On the same page they use 正統 for Next Dimension, they use a different word for TLC, and ithis is consistent across all media."

It is, because none of these terms and their usages actually contradict each other "official" "continuation" "legitimate" "sequel" whatever. And an instance of 正統 being used for TLC has already been posted.

That map just shows things the things Kurumada made himself and things other writers made. It even links Overture to ND as "The Prologue of a new battle" indicating they may or may not be connected

It's a map distinguishing the canon timeline (original comic) and everything else, it never specifies something like Kurumada vs. other writers.

And when did an official Saint Seiya source even call Episode G 正統 for this discussion to even be a thing?

The manga IS canon to Dragon Ball Super, like, that's inarguable at this point since: The official timeline calls it canon, the manga and the movies tie into each other (to the point the manga literally tells you to watch the movies for the complete story), Toriyama has said the manga is more on track than the anime, the manga is officially stated to be the sequel to the Dragon Ball Manga, and Toriyama called it the perfect continuation of his work.

Like, both these things are pretty obvious.

No, the Super Manga is literally a stated adaptation of the Super Anime (the canon) as a small contribution to the effort to promote it, which by definition and nature makes it not canon. The official timeline never calls it canon, because that word only means official, and one could even easily interpret that billboard to referring to DBS as a whole, and not just the non canon manga adaptation.

The manga only adapts the movies into it's own version and it's not connected to the movies in any way. You can literally see several differences between the manga's adaptation of BoG/Broly and the movie itself (canonical).

The official sequel to the DB Manga is the DBS Anime, something that was confirmed by Toriyama himself when he started off by considering the Broly Movie (a work officially confirmed to be canon) to be part of the Anime, and as for the manga he wasn't even sure if the manga would even have Broly at all (till Toyble later adapted it of his own accord) with different developments.

Toriyama's opinions on the quality of a work means absolutely nothing towards canonicity itself, and on the contrary he on record originally separated canon material from the manga.

 

[StekFence]

How can TLC Episode G ND possibly exist in the same timeline?

I don’t think they do, but they can still be canon to one another, much like how marvel has multiple timelines in its setting.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

It's a map distinguishing the canon timeline (original comic) and everything else, it never specifies something like Kurumada vs. other writers.

So this is untrue as it literally says "Original Work" vs "Others" not "Original timeline" or anything like that.

No, the Super Manga is literally a stated adaptation of the Super Anime (the canon) as a small contribution to the effort to promote it, which by definition and nature makes it not canon. The official timeline never calls it canon, because that word only means official, and one could even easily interpret that billboard to referring to DBS as a whole, and not just the non canon manga adaptation.

So, this is untrue as the only time it's referred to as an adaptation is in the announcement of the anime in V-Jump. In the official tie ins, it's stated the only one that's a promotional tie in to the anime is Special Chapter One

The Billboard is DIRECTLY talking about the manga as it's DIRECTLY noting it and even uses only images from the manga as well as using the events of the manga's timeline in order of how they appeared IN THE MANGA. It's even called "Seishi" a word that means OFFICIAL HISTORY

The manga only adapts the movies into it's own version and it's not connected to the movies in any way. You can literally see several differences between the manga's adaptation of BoG/Broly and the movie itself (canonical).

So this is a lie, as the manga LITERALLY ties into the movies several times. Here, we're explicitly told to watch the movie to understand why they're on a boat. Here, when the manga literally tells us to go see the movie. We even have Freeza flashback to the events of the movie. And here, where we see the events of the Broly movie happened in the manga.

The official sequel to the DB Manga is the DBS Anime, something that was confirmed by Toriyama himself when he started off by considering the Broly Movie (a work officially confirmed to be canon) to be part of the Anime, and as for the manga he wasn't even sure if the manga would even have Broly at all (till Toyble later adapted it of his own accord) with different developments.

Toriyama's opinions on the quality of a work means absolutely nothing towards canonicity itself, and on the contrary he on record originally separated canon material from the manga

So, let's debunk this in order. I can't find the interview where he claims that. The most I can find is him saying he wanted to bring Broly into the Dragon Ball Super Series and that he's working harder on the movie since he's not doing a serial. The interview doesn't have him claiming the manga is non-canon unless you squint at "The Dragon Ball Super movie this time will be the next story in the series currently airing on TV" (meaning it takes place after the events of the TV show, not that it's the same universe.) and "Now then, the animated version on TV will be ending for the time being, but the very popular Dragon Ball Super comic drawn by Toyotarō (on sale now up through volume 5!) will keep on going as-is. I think there will also be story developments different from the TV show and the movie, so please look forward to that as well. I will be, too!" (which states the manga may have differences from the anime, not that it's not canon) ESPECIALLY when between those two sentences he states he's becoming more hands-on with THE ANIMATED VERSION that he was COMPLETELY HANDS OFF BEFORE. (stating he had little involvement in the anime), then adds that the manga might be different from the animated series AND the movie (two different clauses, not one). I also can't find any indication Toyotaro put Broly in "of his own accord" and The Dragon Ball Super timeline LITERALLY HAD THE BROLY MOVIE as part of the events of the manga's timeline. Which indicates it was always meant to be part of the manga's timeline. Toyotaro even says he makes sure to follow Toriyama's continuity. And repeated statements are that Toriyama and Toyotaro come up with story ideas together.

This is in addition to him LITERALLY SAYING the manga went on hiatus so he and Toyotaro could decide what happens next and EXPLICITLY stating the next manga chapter ties directly into the Super Hero movie. I'm sorry, dude, you're wrong on this one.

As for his opinions on the quality meaning nothing? That's obviously not true as he LEGITIMATELY SAYS the anime isn't as on track as the manga, meaning the manga is truer to his vision than the anime. And he literally said Toyotaro is the successor for a PERFECT CONTINUATION of his work compared to the anime, which he called a "Casual continuation". He's even drawn a distinction between things he sees in the anime and the manga, referring to it as "My story"

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

So this is untrue as it literally says "Original Work" vs "Others" not "Original timeline" or anything like that.

It literally depicts the timeline of the original manga, where Episode G doesn't exist.

This is also consistent with Okada himself's stance on Episode G.

So, this is untrue as the only time it's referred to as an adaptation is in the announcement of the anime in V-Jump. In the official tie ins, it's stated the only one that's a promotional tie in to the anime is Special Chapter One

Nope, Toyble himself has confirmed the entire product is an adaptation of the anime.

News | Early "Dragon Ball Super" Story Details in August 2015 V-Jump

The August 2015 issue of V-Jump in Japan provides preliminary details on the upcoming 'Dragon Ball Super' TV series set to debut in July

www.kanzenshuu.com

Super SCOOP!! #7
The comic adaptation by Toyotarō-sensei starts this issue!!

Comment From Toyotarō-sensei
“Getting to see a new DB anime series every week makes me too happy! With this comicalization, I want to make my own small contribution to the excitement, so everyone please check out the manga, too!”

A fact that hasn't changed to this day, considering how the next arc is literally an adaptation of the Anime's Superhero movie.

So this is a lie, as the manga LITERALLY ties into the movies several times. Here, we're explicitly told to watch the movie to understand why they're on a boat. Here, when the manga literally tells us to go see the movie. We even have Freeza flashback to the events of the movie. And here, where we see the events of the Broly movie happened in the manga.

It's not a lie, you just completely misinterpreted the situation. They're literally adaptations of the movies, they aren't actually canon to the movies and it obviously says that because they're just that, promotional preview adaptations of a more thoroughly depicted story shown in the movies themselves.

The BoG manga adaptation is literally COMPLETELY different from BoG Movie, which itself was retconned by the Anime's version. These differences are so flagrant I shouldn't have to bother posting it.

The RoF manga version is also completely different from the manga or anime.

Movie:

Anime:

Where Vegeta already had the Big Bang Attack charged and mid blast before Goku intervened.


The Broly Movie version is also clearly an adaptation, the differences are just as blatant.

Manga:

Anime:

Completely different outfits from the start (Goku's sash and belt)
Completely different sequence of events (the battle damage, Goku and Vegeta fighting Broly together as Blue when the battlefield was still icy, in the Anime they never fought together until after Broly and Goku had busted it up into that lava terrain

So, let's debunk this in order. I can't find the interview where he claims that. The most I can find is him saying he wanted to bring Broly into the Dragon Ball Super Series and that he's working harder on the movie since he's not doing a serial. The interview doesn't have him claiming the manga is non-canon unless you squint at "The Dragon Ball Super movie this time will be the next story in the series currently airing on TV" (meaning it takes place after the events of the TV show, not that it's the same universe.) and "Now then, the animated version on TV will be ending for the time being, but the very popular Dragon Ball Super comic drawn by Toyotarō (on sale now up through volume 5!) will keep on going as-is. I think there will also be story developments different from the TV show and the movie, so please look forward to that as well. I will be, too!" (which states the manga may have differences from the anime, not that it's not canon) ESPECIALLY when between those two sentences he states he's becoming more hands-on with THE ANIMATED VERSION that he was COMPLETELY HANDS OFF BEFORE. (stating he had little involvement in the anime)

He literally says it's a story IN the TV Anime, this means that it's part of the anime. Even in the same interview he says the Anime will be ending for the time ending in reference to the Broly Movie's reference and confirms this again.

Even for Superhero's release, it was reiterated by Toriyama again that the movies are part of the anime.



The movie is the canon version, so the manga having differences and Toriyama being unsure if Broly would even be a thing there completely eliminates it from being canon.

No, he's literally only referring to the original Z Anime there (he makes that statement in reference to how he'd forgotten the story of Broly's character due to his lack of involvement back then hence having to rewatch Movie 8 before production), not the Super Anime where it's literally known otherwise how involved he was.

then adds that the manga might be different from the animated series AND the movie (two different clauses, not one). I also can't find any indication Toyotaro put Broly in "of his own accord" and The Dragon Ball Super timeline LITERALLY HAD THE BROLY MOVIE as part of the events of the manga's timeline. Which indicates it was always meant to be part of the manga's timeline. Toyotaro even says he makes sure to follow Toriyama's continuity. And repeated statements are that Toriyama and Toyotaro come up with story ideas together.

Those two posters are clearly completely separate and the Broly movie poster is not the same as the poster of the DBS manga, and said poster literally uses the movie visuals and outfits that explicitly aren't there in the manga. The Broly movie in the manga is completely different from the canonical version, so it isn't canon.

None of what Toyotaro does or this exaggeration of Toriyama's involvement matters in the slightest in regards to canonicity due to the actual purpose of the manga, just like how the DBZ Movies and GT aren't part of the canon just because Toriyama has a high opinion of them or came up with ideas and designs for (although he didn't even come up with ideas for the Super Manga, since the context of the joint effort is him giving input on Toyble's ideas) them.

This is in addition to him LITERALLY SAYING the manga went on hiatus so he and Toyotaro could decide what happens next and EXPLICITLY stating the next manga chapter ties directly into the Super Hero movie. I'm sorry, dude, you're wrong on this one
As for his opinions on the quality meaning nothing? That's obviously not true as he LEGITIMATELY SAYS the anime isn't as on track as the manga, meaning the manga is truer to his vision than the anime. And he literally said Toyotaro is the successor for a PERFECT CONTINUATION of his work compared to the anime, which he called a "Casual continuation". He's even drawn a distinction between things he sees in the anime and the manga, referring to it as "My story"

And again, his opinion on the quality or effort of these works in contrast doesn't matter when the manga is confirmed to just be an adaptation of the Anime. No, Toriyama never said that, and it literally says the manga will adapt the Superhero movie.

There is only one canon for Dragon Ball Super which is the Anime and Movies, and the Super Manga is to that canon product what the Z Anime was to the DB manga.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I don’t think they do, but they can still be canon to one another, much like how marvel has multiple timelines in its setting.

That's fine, I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

It literally depicts the timeline of the original manga, where Episode G doesn't exist.

Except it doesn't. In fact it literally shows the events of one taking place "ten years prior" to the manga, via the arrows, And again, all it says is "Original Works" vs "Others"

It's not a lie, you just completely misinterpreted the situation. They're literally adaptations of the movies, they aren't actually canon to the movies and it obviously says that because they're just that, promotional preview adaptations of a more thoroughly depicted story shown in the movies themselves.

The BoG manga adaptation is literally COMPLETELY different from BoG Movie, which itself was retconned by the Anime's version. These differences are so flagrant I shouldn't have to bother posting it.

The RoF manga version is also completely different from the manga or anime.

Movie:

Anime:

Where Vegeta already had the Big Bang Attack charged and mid blast before Goku intervened.

That's not completely different. The pose is the same, the events are the same and WE'RE LITERALLY TOLD the same events happened.

The Broly Movie version is also clearly an adaptation, the differences are just as blatant.

Manga:

Anime:

Not seeing a difference besides battle damage in their outfits, which is easily handwaved away as artistic license. It also doesn't contradict us being told to go see the movie and the events of the movie being told to us that they happened.

He literally says it's a story IN the TV Anime, this means that it's part of the anime. Even in the same interview he says the Anime will be ending for the time ending in reference to the Broly Movie's reference and confirms this again.

Even for Superhero's release, it was reiterated by Toriyama again that the movies are part of the anime.

So, he doesn't say that. That's an editor's note adding the movies and the shows together. In fact, it kinda is the opposite of your claims as he says the ANIME is a CASUAL CONTINUATION of his work.

The movie is the canon version, so the manga having differences and Toriyama being unsure if Broly would even be a thing there completely eliminates it from being canon.

He literally never says he's unsure if Broly will appear there. If he did, please link that.

No, he's literally only referring to the original Z Anime there (he makes that statement in reference to how he'd forgotten the story of Broly's character due to his lack of involvement back then hence having to rewatch Movie 8 before production), not the Super Anime where it's literally known otherwise how involved he was.

Those two posters are clearly completely separate and the Broly movie poster is not the same as the poster of the DBS manga, and said poster literally uses the movie visuals and outfits that explicitly aren't there in the manga. The Broly movie in the manga is completely different from the canonical version, so it isn't canon.

Um, no they're not. It's LITERALLY part of the same poster, my guy:

None of what Toyotaro does or this exaggeration of Toriyama's involvement matters in the slightest in regards to canonicity due to the actual purpose of the manga, just like how the DBZ Movies and GT aren't part of the canon just because Toriyama has a high opinion of them or came up with ideas and designs for (although he didn't even come up with ideas for the Super Manga, since the context of the joint effort is him giving input on Toyble's ideas) them.

So, not sure how "quoting exactly what Toriyama and Toyotaro have said about the creation of the manga" is an exaggeration but OK? It's not like we have repeated statements and proof that Toriyama constantly goes over and checks Toyotaro's work to make sure it fits his vision, Toyotaro stating he follows Toriyama's canon, Toriyama and Toyotaro literally going over the manga's plot together....

There is only one canon for Dragon Ball Super which is the Anime and Movies, and the Super Manga is to that canon product what the Z Anime was to the DB manga.

So, if that's true, why does Toriyama refer to the manga as his story? Why does he refer to Toyotaro's work as "the continuation of his story"? Why does he state the manga is the perfect continuation of his work? Why does he say Toyotaro's manga should be used to keep the anime on track? Why does he say that Toyotaro is his CHOSEN SUCCESSOR for the Dragon Ball universe to be brought back to life in the present? Why were his ideas the ones that led to fusion and the events of the Goku Black arc? Why's it explictly stated Toriyama came up with all the ideas for the manga-only stuff in the Granolah arc? Why do interviews with the editor state Toriyama is doing the bulk of the story work?

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I also find it odd you disagree with the translation and claim Herms is

Herms is literally only speculating in that that thread based off the preconceived notion that Super is canon and deciding that “legitimate” must mean that, an idea that’s clearly not the case.


How can TLC Episode G ND possibly exist in the same timeline?

So, that's just bunk, since Herms has often said the opposite, that he didn't until that point believe the anime or manga were more canon. He was simply confirming the English translation Viz used was accurate by noting what it said in Japanese and why Viz chose that translation.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

You know what? This is off topic.

You wanted proof that G/G Assassin were called 正統,? You are correct in that the official page page only uses the vol 1 solicits to refer to each, so only ND uses 正統. However, the publishers AND Kuromada Pro refer to it as 正統 in the solicits for it. https://webcomics.jp/mangacross/assassin

Here's them being described as such on Dic.nicovido https://dic.nicovideo.jp/a/聖闘士星矢episode.g

To back my point about 正統 meaning canon: The announcement for Next dimension LITERALLY SAYS ND is 正統 but Lost Canvas is "Another Seiya"

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Except it doesn't. In fact it literally shows the events of one taking place "ten years prior" to the manga, via the arrows, And again, all it says is "Original Works" vs "Others"

That timeframe label has nothing to do with canonicity, since it's there for every work on that timeline, even something like TLC.

Also it's interesting that you continue to ignore Okada's stance on Episode G where he clearly confirms Episode G isn't officially considered to be part of the original story's world.

That's not completely different. The pose is the same, the events are the same and WE'RE LITERALLY TOLD the same events happened.

The same events vaguely happened because the manga adapts the canonical version. This doesn't change the fact that its different in the details. This kind of ridiculous non sequitur logic (similar general plot points meaning canon to each other) is literally no different than saying the Z Anime is canon because it adapts the manga with a similar story

Not seeing a difference besides battle damage in their outfits, which is easily handwaved away as artistic license. It also doesn't contradict us being told to go see the movie and the events of the movie being told to us that they happened.

Saying go see the movie is simply because the manga only creates summary or preview level detailed adaptations of the movies and they tell the same general story, however this doesn't change the fact that even in those glimpses of the fight the manga does show, it's different from the anime and not 1:1 to say the movie itself is canon to each other. The story of Broly happened in the manga=/= the literal movie animated by Toei and scripted by Toriyama did.

So, he doesn't say that. That's an editor's note adding the movies and the shows together. In fact, it kinda is the opposite of your claims as he says the ANIME is a CASUAL CONTINUATION of his work.

Casual only references the amount of effort put into the work, this means nothing for whether or not it's canon or not.

The editor wrote that for a good reason, since the context of Toriyama's comment makes it clear that Superhero is part of the anime, when he literally says that the new DBS viewers should go see the Anime to have the necessary background knowledge before watching Superhero.

He literally never says he's unsure if Broly will appear there. If he did, please link that.

News | Official Website for 2018 Dragon Ball Film Reveals Key Staff, Visual, Release Date, & Akira Toriyama Comment

The official website for the upcoming December 2018 theatrical Dragon Ball film has revealed a release date, key staff, new visual, and a new comment from original author Akira Toriyama

www.kanzenshuu.com

Now then, the animated version on TV will be ending for the time being, but the very popular Dragon Ball Super comic drawn by Toyotarō (on sale now up through volume 5!) will keep on going as-is. I think there will also be story developments different from the TV show and the movie, so please look forward to that as well. I will be, too!

Toriyama indicates that he believed that there would be literal story developments different from the movie in the manga. This possibly could mean that it wasn't known if Broly itself would happen there since the story being discussed in this interview is the Broly story, although at the very least it shows that he believes that the manga's version would be different in someway STORYwise (not just uhhh artistic difference) and the Broly movie made by him and Toei =/= whatever Toyble would do.

Um, no they're not. It's LITERALLY part of the same poster, my guy:

No they aren't, they only appear at the same exhibit.

You can clearly see how that Broly Movie poster uses the anime designs and character which are completely different from how it was in the manga, and also literally references a screenplay script, another thing that's completely incompatible with the manga.

So, not sure how "quoting exactly what Toriyama and Toyotaro have said about the creation of the manga" is an exaggeration but OK? It's not like we have repeated statements and proof that Toriyama constantly goes over and checks Toyotaro's work to make sure it fits his vision, Toyotaro stating he follows Toriyama's canon, Toriyama and Toyotaro literally going over the manga's plot together....

None of this information changes the fact that the manga is confirmed to be an adaptation of the anime and by nature is not canon.

You act as if Toriyama actually does any relevant original writing, something that is an exaggeration because he literally only worked with Toyble's original ideas for the Moro and Granola Arcs.

And it's quite the paradox that you try to cite original author involvement as any indication of canonicity while insisting Episode G is somehow canon, when Kurumada had negative involvement in it.

So, if that's true, why does Toriyama refer to the manga as his story?

You should at least actually post the source of this information or even some other scans for the entire context (especially context, considering you've already been disingenuous in regards to that referencing one out of context line to claim Toriyama said he had no involvement in the Super Anime which couldn't be further from reality), because this scan doesn't indicate who's saying it, who it's talking about, what exactly it's talking about, none of it.

It's seriously in doubt it refers to Toriyama, since the DBS manga isn't his story in any way and it's just an adaptation based on the anime/movies and his draft.

A good example to show how truly different the DBS manga is from Toriyama's story:
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translat...-artisans-who-made-the-universe-survival-arc/

Takami: To start off with, Dragon Ball Super is based on Toriyama-sensei‘s “original draft.” That’s why it’s not like the original stories that Toei Animation would make back with Dragon Ball Z. Instead, it’s a question of how Toei Animation will depict the original draft which Toriyama-sensei came up with.

How much of the story was written out in Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft? Nakamura: The course of events for the Universe 7 warriors was written out in a document from beginning to end. For instance, who Piccolo fights and loses to, and who ultimately survives. Plus the course of the battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11… all of the main points were written out.

The Anime ToP depicts the ToP faithfully down to every single interaction for the fighters. The manga vastly strays from this and is completely different and isn't Toriyama's story in any way.

Why does he refer to Toyotaro's work as "the continuation of his story"? Why does he state the manga is the perfect continuation of his work? Why does he say Toyotaro's manga should be used to keep the anime on track?

Because it is a continuation of this story, however continuation=/= canon literally even GT is called a continuation. As explained multiple times, Toriyama' opinion on the quality of something has nothing to do with its canonicity. GT's idea and concepts was so perfect Toriyama said he would've continued the manga with it's plot points if he had the energy to, this does not mean GT canon.If you actually note the context of these answers, Toriyama was only referring to art style and animation, not the story.

And Toei never even bothered to do this either (referencing the manga in character designs and animation).

At any rate, when it comes to the actual story (the actual aspect of canonicity), the manga is confirmed to just be an adaptation of the Anime.

Why does he say that Toyotaro is his CHOSEN SUCCESSOR for the Dragon Ball universe to be brought back to life in the present?

So what if Toyotaro is a chosen mangaka for the franchise? Literally none of that disproves the fact that the DBS manga product itself is a small contribution to promotion adaptation which by nature makes it not canon.

Why were his ideas the ones that led to fusion and the events of the Goku Black arc?

Are you seriously implying Toyble is the reason Vegito appeared in the anime? What kind of misinformation is that?

DBS Episode 66: November 2016
DBS Chapter 23: April 2017

Toyble's simply talking about how he worked up to debuting Fusion in the manga, the Anime literally debuted Vegito several months before already.

Why's it explictly stated Toriyama came up with all the ideas for the manga-only stuff in the Granolah arc? Why do interviews with the editor state Toriyama is doing the bulk of the story work?

Another extremely misleading post, his authority as the original author has nothing to do with his involvement. In reality, all Toriyama does is put together and give advice to Toyble's original ideas, he didn't come up with anything relevant besides character designs for the Heeters and Sugarians.

This was literally explained in detail by Toyble.

All of the nonsense that is the Granolah Arc was contrived by Toyble (everything relevant to the story), nothing relevant or important to the story is by Toriyama, who's simply a yes-man that gives advice to Toyble's own ideas and writing and puts them together to form the draft.

Although again it's pretty interesting that you even insist on original author involvement as an argument, when Episode G literally lacks that even more than something like Dragon Ball GT and Kurumada confirmed that he didn't give Okada a single idea for the story.

Entrevista a Masami Kurumada en la "Champion Red" #1 (2003)

Entrevista realizada a Masami Kurumada en la revista "Champion Red" #1 de 2003, publicada el 19 de noviembre de 2002, un mes antes de la salida del capítulo #1 de "Saint Seiya Episode G".

www.ssnextdimension.com

Suggestion? No, I just said "feel free to do what you want"... If I have to give any advice, it won't be a detail about the story, but something about the spirit of it.

I also find it odd you disagree with the translation and claim Herms is

So, that's just bunk, since Herms has often said the opposite, that he didn't until that point believe the anime or manga were more canon. He was simply confirming the English translation Viz used was accurate by noting what it said in Japanese and why Viz chose that translation.

A translation and interpretation that's confirmed to be incorrect (even in that thread he's literally just speculating by his own admission, and incorrect translations and misinterpretations is nothing new in regards to Herms, something he even admits himself) since it's been used to describe products like the DBS Manga and Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas.

You know what? This is off topic.

You wanted proof that G/G Assassin were called 正統,? You are correct in that the official page page only uses the vol 1 solicits to refer to each, so only ND uses 正統. However, the publishers AND Kuromada Pro refer to it as 正統 in the solicits for it. https://webcomics.jp/mangacross/assassin

Here's them being described as such on Dic.nicovido https://dic.nicovideo.jp/a/聖闘士星矢episode.g

To back my point about 正統 meaning canon: The announcement for Next dimension LITERALLY SAYS ND is 正統 but Lost Canvas is "Another Seiya"

So not even by any official Saint Seiya source? Not that it would matter regardless, but it doesn't seem to be in good faith to base an argument of such a substantial topic of trying to canonize a story with infinite contradictions with the canon universe based off of promotional statements from digital publishers/redistributors.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Politely, I disagree with literally all of this and ironically find your claims kind of hypocritical.

That timeframe label has nothing to do with canonicity, since it's there for every work on that timeline, even something like TLC.

Neither do the words "Original Work" and "Other" have to do with canon as they're blatantly talking about the things Masami Kuromada wrote compared to the ones others wrote.

Casual only references the amount of effort put into the work, this means nothing for whether or not it's canon or not.

Disagree. Casual in this context references how closely it follows his ideas. "For a first-time viewer, it might be a little hard to figure out the character relationships, so they might need to learn about the SERIES a bit beforehand

The editor wrote that for a good reason, since the context of Toriyama's comment makes it clear that Superhero is part of the anime, when he literally says that the new DBS viewers should go see the Anime to have the necessary background knowledge before watching Superhero.

Literally not what he said. He just said they need to learn about the series beforehand since the anime is a "casual continuation"

Toriyama indicates that he believed that there would be literal story developments different from the movie in the manga. This possibly could mean that it wasn't known if Broly itself would happen there since the story being discussed in this interview is the Broly story, although at the very least it shows that he believes that the manga's version would be different in someway STORYwise (not just uhhh artistic difference) and the Broly movie made by him and Toei =/= whatever Toyble would do.

So, speculation on what he COULD mean, not concrete facts. Literally, all he says is how he thinks there MAY be story developments different from the movie (I think there will also be story developments different from the TV show and the movie, so please look forward to that as well. I will be, too!) Nothing about "Oh, Broly might not appear".

No they aren't, they only appear at the same exhibit.

This is blatantly untrue. The "Exhibit" is the poster detailing the dragon ball timeline. They are even literally connected to each other in the thing literally titled "History of Dragon Ball Timeline"

You can clearly see how that Broly Movie poster uses the anime designs and character which are completely different from how it was in the manga, and also literally references a screenplay script, another thing that's completely incompatible with the manga.

This literally means nothing, just that there are artistic differences.

None of this information changes the fact that the manga is confirmed to be an adaptation of the anime and by nature is not canon.

Not remotely what that means, but sure. Doesn't change the fact the manga's called the legitimate sequel.

You act as if Toriyama actually does any relevant original writing, something that is an exaggeration because he literally only worked with Toyble's original ideas for the Moro and Granola Arcs.

This is also untrue. I demonstrate the Granola arc below, but for the Moro arc, it's explicitly stated they worked on it together and some story elements were wholly Toriyama, and that Toriyama actually drew parts of it. and that's where the Victory Uchida interview comes in. You're claiming I'm exaggerating his involvement in it, but you're either purposefully downplaying it out of malice or ignorance.

And it's quite the paradox that you try to cite original author involvement as any indication of canonicity while insisting Episode G is somehow canon, when Kurumada had negative involvement in it.

You should at least actually post the source of this information or even some other scans for the entire context (especially context, considering you've already been disingenuous in regards to that referencing one out of context line to claim Toriyama said he had no involvement in the Super Anime which couldn't be further from reality), because this scan doesn't indicate who's saying it, who it's talking about, what exactly it's talking about, none of it.

I literally never said "he had no involvement in the anime" I said he had little involvement, which is true. While he makes contributions, they repeatedly state in interviews he lets the anime mostly do their own thing. Here's several interviews where he or others state that:

It's seriously in doubt it refers to Toriyama, since the DBS manga isn't his story in any way and it's just an adaptation based on the anime/movies and his draft.

Except he literally does say the manga is his story, according to Toyotaro compared to the anime.

A good example to show how truly different the DBS manga is from Toriyama's story:
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translat...-artisans-who-made-the-universe-survival-arc/

The Anime ToP depicts the ToP faithfully down to every single interaction for the fighters. The manga vastly strays from this and is completely different and isn't Toriyama's story in any way.

It...just says they depict the main plot points and who Piccolo loses to, and the fight between universe 7 and 11. Not sure how you got "every single interaction for the fighters" unless you're extrapolating : " The course of events for the Universe 7 warriors was written out in a document from beginning to end. For instance, who Piccolo fights and loses to, and who ultimately survives. Plus the course of the battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11… all of the main points were written out."

Because it is a continuation of this story, however continuation=/= canon literally even GT is called a continuation. As explained multiple times, Toriyama' opinion on the quality of something has nothing to do with its canonicity. GT's idea and concepts was so perfect Toriyama said he would've continued the manga with it's plot points if he had the energy to, this does not mean GT canon.If you actually note the context of these answers, Toriyama was only referring to art style and animation, not the story.

And Toei never even bothered to do this either (referencing the manga in character designs and animation).

At any rate, when it comes to the actual story (the actual aspect of canonicity), the manga is confirmed to just be an adaptation of the Anime.

So what if Toyotaro is a chosen mangaka for the franchise? Literally none of that disproves the fact that the DBS manga product itself is a small contribution to promotion adaptation which by nature makes it not canon.



Are you seriously implying Toyble is the reason Vegito appeared in the anime? What kind of misinformation is that?

He....literally said that. He said he added the fusion to the draft
Toyotarō:
Zamasu1 actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Boo arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers’ expectations… And so, I made a scenario where “even if they shouldn’t really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse”.

Toriyama:
I think it was good!

That's not "misinformation" that's LITERALLY WHAT THE ***** SAID!

DBS Episode 66: November 2016
DBS Chapter 23: April 2017

And this prevents the anime (Which works with Toriyama and Toyotaro) from implementing Toyotaro's idea how? Especially since Toriyama said he thought it was a good idea?

Toyble's simply talking about how he worked up to debuting Fusion in the manga, the Anime literally debuted Vegito several months before already.

That makes no sense in the context of what was asked, as he is literally talking about how excited he is to be having his own ideas implemented. "
Toyotarō-sensei, do you add in your own ideas as you turn Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft into a finished manga?
Toyotarō:
That’s right. Ultimately things need to head towards the conclusion indicated by Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft, but during that process I want to give various characters things to do. Vegeta being stubborn shows off the appeal of his character, and makes the story more exciting. And of course I want to make Trunks look cool, and even Gowasu… basically I want each character to get the chance to shine. At times like that I depart slightly from the script, but I guess you could say I’m faithful to its essence.

Toriyama:
I welcome it! After all, you know far more about Dragon Ball than I do (laughs).
Toyotarō:
Well, my goal is to be the No. 1 fan (laughs). Still, it’s not just about my desire to give various characters a chance to shine; there are also times when this sort of thing is necessary to arrive at the goal you’ve indicated, Toriyama-sensei. For instance, if the goal is for Goku to have a direct showdown with Zamasu1 at the end, I can’t simply have Goku reach that point in peak condition. There needs to be various twists and turns before the two can face off against each other. This time around in the “Future Trunks arc”, there were many such twists and turns that I created… though I was a bit uncertain about them…
Toriyama:
No, it’s better that way! I think it’s better to let your individuality as an author shine through, rather than just follow the path I set down for you. It would be unbalanced if it were all just my ideas, so it’s better like this.
Toyotarō:
While I tried not to take things too far afield, I certainly did get to use many of my own ideas at points. Like thinking “wouldn’t it be interesting if Trunks trained in the Kaiōshin Realm, and had healing powers?” (laughs)
Toriyama:
It’s definitely better that way.
Super Saiyan God Vegeta likewise only appeared in the manga version.
Toriyama:
I supervised that. I remember (laughs). It was fun to see Toyotarō-sensei‘s ideas start coming out more and more.
Were there any other difficult points?
Toyotarō:
Zamasu1 actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Boo arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers’ expectations… And so, I made a scenario where “even if they shouldn’t really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse”.

Toriyama:
I think it was good!
Toyotarō:
That’s why I thought and thought until the rough draft came together… It was the most fun and also the most stressful time. But once that got the OK, it was a fun job after that!

Literally the entire conversation is about the ideas that HE came up with.

Another extremely misleading post, his authority as the original author has nothing to do with his involvement. In reality, all Toriyama does is put together and give advice to Toyble's original ideas, he didn't come up with anything relevant besides character designs for the Heeters and Sugarians.

This was literally explained in detail by Toyble.

All of the nonsense that is the Granolah Arc was contrived by Toyble (everything relevant to the story), nothing relevant or important to the story is by Toriyama, who's simply a yes-man that gives advice to Toyble's own ideas and writing and puts them together to form the draft.

So, this is an incredibly disingenous summary of the interview. According to this interview, Toyotaro proposed the idea, they worked on it together and Toriyama was the one who made a bunch of edits to the storyline, not just creating new characters (The Heeters and the Sugarians), but creating new origins (the Namekians not originally being from Namek) and directing how the story should go.Toyotaro even says he CAN'T make major decisions and it comes from Toriyama. Like, the interview is super clear that he wasn't just a "yes man". He even specifies there's stuff he as an apprentice simply isn't allowed to do without input from Toriyama, so the idea of being a yes man is provably wrong. For someone claiming I took things out of context, you used an interview where Toyataro is like "I proposed the idea, and Toriyama accepted it, changed it and made it thousands of times better. There's stuff I'm not allowed to change, so he did these things" and tried to make it sound like he did everything. Toyotaro even says "TORIYAMA shared loads of hidden Dragon Ball secrets with me so I was able to continuously reveal them". Hell, according to a different interview, after he pitched the idea, Toriyama wrote most of the original draft, something he backed up in that interview by stating Toriyama took his idea and improved it "thousands of times better" from his pitch

Although again it's pretty interesting that you even insist on original author involvement as an argument, when Episode G literally lacks that even more than something like Dragon Ball GT and Kurumada confirmed that he didn't give Okada a single idea for the story.

Entrevista a Masami Kurumada en la "Champion Red" #1 (2003)

Entrevista realizada a Masami Kurumada en la revista "Champion Red" #1 de 2003, publicada el 19 de noviembre de 2002, un mes antes de la salida del capítulo #1 de "Saint Seiya Episode G".

www.ssnextdimension.com

No, I was pointing out Toriyama considers the manga the more faithful adaptation of his script, and often calls it the Continuation of his story AND his story according to Toyotaro.

A translation and interpretation that's confirmed to be incorrect (even in that thread he's literally just speculating by his own admission, and incorrect translations and misinterpretations is nothing new in regards to Herms, something he even admits himself) since it's been used to describe products like the DBS Manga and Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas.

Dragon Ball Super Manga is canon. I'm sorry, dude. And TLC is only called that in a news announcement for it being bundled with ND for e-books, and literally every other publisher calls it a side gaiden. And as I showed with numerous other series, it's used to mean a series set in the same universe far more times than your interpretation. Here's Toyotaro even stating that when Akira Toriyama sees something in the anime, he says "This seems like a good idea, maybe I will use it in MY STORY as well" (And no, he doesn't mean Toyotaro's story, because Toyotaro is quoting him) 2.50-2:54.

So not even by any official Saint Seiya source? Not that it would matter regardless, but it doesn't seem to be in good faith to base an argument of such a substantial topic of trying to canonize a story with infinite contradictions with the canon universe based off of promotional statements from digital publishers/redistributors.

Digital Publishers/redistributers do have a higher level of authority and are a better basis of determining it than saying it's not because DDNavi called TLC one, when DDNavi is a fansite blog.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Neither do the words "Original Work" and "Other" have to do with canon as they're blatantly talking about the things Masami Kuromada wrote compared to the ones others wrote.

That material is based on how works correlate to each other (as mentioned by the title), not who wrote it.

Again, since you seem to have missed it for like the third time or ignoring addressing it on purpose, Okada himself makes it clear Episode G isn't officially part of the original story's universe.

Disagree. Casual in this context references how closely it follows his ideas. "For a first-time viewer, it might be a little hard to figure out the character relationships, so they might need to learn about the SERIES a bit beforehand

Literally not what he said. He just said they need to learn about the series beforehand since the anime is a "casual continuation"

No, it has nothing to do with how closely it follows his ideas, because that's even something they do to a T, look up the definition of casual to understand what that phrase means.

And the funny thing is he's literally talking about figuring out grasping the content of the movie when he mentions figuring out the relationships, this is why in the next sentence he contrasts it with the fact that those who know only need to see it once, and calling the issue of that the anime being a casual continuation literally indicates further that they consider Superhero part of the Anime.

So, speculation on what he COULD mean, not concrete facts. Literally, all he says is how he thinks there MAY be story developments different from the movie (I think there will also be story developments different from the TV show and the movie, so please look forward to that as well. I will be, too!) Nothing about "Oh, Broly might not appear".

As I said, even if it doesn't mean that it doesn't change anything, it still establishes the fact that Toriyama considered that the manga would have different outright story developments, something confirmed with the numerous differences in the manga's verison, and Toyble's adaptation is not connected to the movie in any way.

This is blatantly untrue. The "Exhibit" is the poster detailing the dragon ball timeline. They are even literally connected to each other in the thing literally titled "History of Dragon Ball Timeline"

This literally means nothing, just that there are artistic differences.

The DBS Manga timeline seems to end at the part of the ToP, because the movie is completely different and incompatible with it and even Toriyama indicated that story was different.

No, it's not just an artistic difference, the story is literally completely different between who fought Broly and when, and the battle damage is an indication of the course of the fights which literally makes up the Broly movie story.

It...just says they depict the main plot points and who Piccolo loses to, and the fight between universe 7 and 11. Not sure how you got "every single interaction for the fighters" unless you're extrapolating : " The course of events for the Universe 7 warriors was written out in a document from beginning to end. For instance, who Piccolo fights and loses to, and who ultimately survives. Plus the course of he battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11… all of the main points were written out."

That's right, even though the idea clearly is for the whole ToP, at minimum all the U7 fighter' fights and interactions (not just Piccolo and it applies to all of them since it says the Universe 7 warriors and Piccolo is only cited as an example to show how meticulous Toriyama's draft was) in the ToP Anime are directly from Toriyama's draft, something that's not the case for the manga where the ToP is completely different.

Not remotely what that means, but sure. Doesn't change the fact the manga's called the legitimate sequel.

This is also untrue. I demonstrate the Granola arc below, but for the Moro arc, it's explicitly stated they worked on it together and some story elements were wholly Toriyama, and that Toriyama actually drew parts of it. and that's where the Victory Uchida interview comes in. You're claiming I'm exaggerating his involvement in it, but you're either purposefully downplaying it out of malice or ignorance.

The DBS manga being called a legitimate sequel literally only indicates how 正統 doesn't mean canon.

And we know from the Granola Arc where they go in detail about the process, what it means by them working together and his ideas for the story are him giving advice and minor additions to Toybles creations, and he only comes up with the idea for minor things like the existence of the Heeters and Sugarians.

Even in that interview, Toyotaro clearly describes how Moro as a character was his creation.

Moro's design is an image of total evil. I didn't want the enemies in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc to be enemies that you would become friends with later on, but rather enemies that you absolutely had to defeat. I wanted to create an enemy that everyone would think "I have to defeat!" just like the original Piccolo Daimao, so I started thinking about goats, which is the motif of Western devils. The clothes also give off a shinigami-like image, but in any case, it's a character that I thought of in the direction of being a bad guy.

I did not downplay anything in any way, I just don't misinterpret cherry-picked oneliners and completely misrepresent them outside of all the other context and correlated information we have where we can clearly see what's actually the case.

That makes no sense in the context of what was asked, as he is literally talking about how excited he is to be having his own ideas implemented. "
Toyotarō-sensei, do you add in your own ideas as you turn Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft into a finished manga?
Toyotarō:
That’s right. Ultimately things need to head towards the conclusion indicated by Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft, but during that process I want to give various characters things to do. Vegeta being stubborn shows off the appeal of his character, and makes the story more exciting. And of course I want to make Trunks look cool, and even Gowasu… basically I want each character to get the chance to shine. At times like that I depart slightly from the script, but I guess you could say I’m faithful to its essence.

Toriyama:
I welcome it! After all, you know far more about Dragon Ball than I do (laughs).
Toyotarō:
Well, my goal is to be the No. 1 fan (laughs). Still, it’s not just about my desire to give various characters a chance to shine; there are also times when this sort of thing is necessary to arrive at the goal you’ve indicated, Toriyama-sensei. For instance, if the goal is for Goku to have a direct showdown with Zamasu1 at the end, I can’t simply have Goku reach that point in peak condition. There needs to be various twists and turns before the two can face off against each other. This time around in the “Future Trunks arc”, there were many such twists and turns that I created… though I was a bit uncertain about them…
Toriyama:
No, it’s better that way! I think it’s better to let your individuality as an author shine through, rather than just follow the path I set down for you. It would be unbalanced if it were all just my ideas, so it’s better like this.
Toyotarō:
While I tried not to take things too far afield, I certainly did get to use many of my own ideas at points. Like thinking “wouldn’t it be interesting if Trunks trained in the Kaiōshin Realm, and had healing powers?” (laughs)
Toriyama:
It’s definitely better that way.
Super Saiyan God Vegeta likewise only appeared in the manga version.
Toriyama:
I supervised that. I remember (laughs). It was fun to see Toyotarō-sensei‘s ideas start coming out more and more.
Were there any other difficult points?
Toyotarō:
Zamasu1 actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Boo arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers’ expectations… And so, I made a scenario where “even if they shouldn’t really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse”.

Toriyama:
I think it was good!
Toyotarō:
That’s why I thought and thought until the rough draft came together… It was the most fun and also the most stressful time. But once that got the OK, it was a fun job after that!

Literally the entire conversation is about the ideas that HE came up with.

Ideas he came up for his non canon manga adaptation and only that. He never says he added it the original draft and only talks about how Vegito wasn't there in that draft.



This ridiculous idea that the manga with it's month to month production schedule came up with Vegito being in DBS, when the anime did it first several months before couldn't be more wrong.

So, this is an incredibly disingenous summary of the interview. According to this interview, Toyotaro proposed the idea, they worked on it together and Toriyama was the one who made a bunch of edits to the storyline, not just creating new characters (The Heeters and the Sugarians), but creating new origins (the Namekians not originally being from Namek) and directing how the story should go.Toyotaro even says he CAN'T make major decisions and it comes from Toriyama. Like, the interview is super clear that he wasn't just a "yes man". He even specifies there's stuff he as an apprentice simply isn't allowed to do without input from Toriyama, so the idea of being a yes man is provably wrong. For someone claiming I took things out of context, you used an interview where Toyataro is like "I proposed the idea, and Toriyama accepted it, changed it and made it thousands of times better. There's stuff I'm not allowed to change, so he did these things" and tried to make it sound like he did everything. Toyotaro even says "TORIYAMA shared loads of hidden Dragon Ball secrets with me so I was able to continuously reveal them". Hell, according to a different interview, after he pitched the idea, Toriyama wrote most of the original draft, something he backed up in that interview by stating Toriyama took his idea and improved it "thousands of times better" from his pitch

???

He literally says Granolah, Bardock, Ultra Ego, the Dragon Balls, etc. were all his ideas. Toriyama's work is literally only giving advice to putting together some of Toyble's ideas and this is the context behind him creating a draft, this does not mean he wrote the story, because they're still Toyble's ideas, not his.

And TLC is only called that in a news announcement for it being bundled with ND for e-books, and literally every other publisher calls it a side gaiden. And as I showed with numerous other series, it's used to mean a series set in the same universe far more times than your interpretation.

That's because being a side gaiden doesn't contradict it being "legitimate", because that word only means official.

Canon works being called legitimate in another example =/= that word itself means canon, this is more non sequitur logic.

Dragon Ball Super Manga is canon. I'm sorry, dude.

The Dragon Ball Super Manga will never. be canon no matter how much misrepresented misinformation you post to try and say it is, because it's an adaptation of the anime and movies, by nature making it non canon and any exaggerations you bring about Toriyama's involvement irrelevant.

I'll post this again, since it must have not been noticed earlier for this discussion to be continuing in any shape or form.

News | Early "Dragon Ball Super" Story Details in August 2015 V-Jump

The August 2015 issue of V-Jump in Japan provides preliminary details on the upcoming 'Dragon Ball Super' TV series set to debut in July

www.kanzenshuu.com

Super SCOOP!! #7
The comic adaptation by Toyotarō-sensei starts this issue!!

Comment From Toyotarō-sensei
“Getting to see a new DB anime series every week makes me too happy! With this comicalization, I want to make my own small contribution to the excitement, so everyone please check out the manga, too!”

"This seems like a good idea, maybe I will use it in MY STORY as well" (And no, he doesn't mean Toyotaro's story, because Toyotaro is quoting him) 2.50-2:54.

Based on the actual context behind this dialogue, this just seems like a weirdly worded translation from a french user who doesn't speak English as the first language.

Toyotaro literally says right before that Toriyama's writing is the rough script that the manga and anime both get, not that his work is the manga or any nonsense like that.

And as far as that comment, he's specifically referring to how the Anime and Manga, despite being produced independently, sometimes cross reference each other (although this is really just Toyble coping since it's evidently one sided with him copying the anime).

Basically, this translation seems to only referr to how Toriyama seems to add some details to the rough script for the manga adaptation (which coincides with how the anime by 2017 was far ahead of the manga) , and even Toyble localizes Toriyama's story to the rough script and that line (assuming it's even an accurate translation in the first place, because it doesn't add up with how Toriyama himself describes his work on the anime, where he checks every detail and eliminates and changs things as he sees fit during production itself, so how can it be the case only finds out these ideas after watching the episode, so it even seems more likely this is referring to Toyble, not Toriyama) is referring to the draft Toyble get, not the manga itself.

Translations | "Dragon Ball Super" Manga Vol. 1 Tori-Toyo Interview (Book Version)

English translation of the interview with Akira Toriyama and Toyotaro from Shueisha's first volume of 'Dragon Ball Super' manga in Japan

www.kanzenshuu.com

Toriyama:
Whenever I supervise anime and whatnot, there’s always something that bugs me and that I’ll ask to have fixed.

Literally any change or addition in the draft from Toei has to go by Toriyama during production and he himself approves them (this is not the case of him not being involved and watching the anime later and taking newfound ideas from it), so this interpretation of this quote makes no sense at all.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

That material is based on how works correlate to each other (as mentioned by the title), not who wrote it.

Again, since you seem to have missed it for like the third time or ignoring addressing it on purpose, Okada himself makes it clear Episode G isn't officially part of the original story's universe.

Um, that just says FANS can decide if it is or not. That's not confirmation that it is or isn't. You're INTENTIONALLY using your own interpretation to claim he gave a hard denial instead of saying "That's up to the readers to decide at this stage. I would be happy if you could imagine freely and enjoy it. may be revealed someday." I wasn't ignoring it, it was a non-issue.

No, it has nothing to do with how closely it follows his ideas, because that's even something they do to a T, look up the definition of casual to understand what that phrase means.

Casual "Relaxed and UNCONCERNED" "LACKING A HIGH DEGREE OF INTEREST OR DEVOTION" "DONE WITHOUT SERIOUS INTENT OR DEVOTION" Oh look, the definition agrees with me.

And the funny thing is he's literally talking about figuring out grasping the content of the movie when he mentions figuring out the relationships, this is why in the next sentence he contrasts it with the fact that those who know only need to see it once, and calling the issue of that the anime being a casual continuation literally indicates further that they consider Superhero part of the Anime.

It doesn't, but OK.

As I said, even if it doesn't mean that it doesn't change anything, it still establishes the fact that Toriyama considered that the manga would have different outright story developments, something confirmed with the numerous differences in the manga's verison, and Toyble's adaptation is not connected to the movie in any way.

I mean, it literally flashed back to the events of the movie.

The DBS Manga timeline seems to end at the part of the ToP, because the movie is completely different and incompatible with it and even Toriyama indicated that story was different.

He indicated it might have some differences, and then when it came out, we literally see the exact same events happened.

No, it's not just an artistic difference, the story is literally completely different between who fought Broly and when, and the battle damage is an indication of the course of the fights which literally makes up the Broly movie story.

How's that? We don't know who fought Broly and when, all we know is that Goku and Vegeta fought Broly, fused into Gogeta and he was wished away. You're hanging a lot of doubt on a single panel recap that is just there to give an overview of events, despite the fact anime and manga do that all the time to recap events you've already seen.

That's right, even though the idea clearly is for the whole ToP, at minimum all the U7 fighter' fights and interactions (not just Piccolo and it applies to all of them since it says the Universe 7 warriors and Piccolo is only cited as an example to show how meticulous Toriyama's draft was) in the ToP Anime are directly from Toriyama's draft, something that's not the case for the manga where the ToP is completely different.

It says he decided who all the universe 7 warriors WERE and how PICCOLO fought, and the course of events for universes 7 and 11. That's not the whole of u7's fights. That's super specific.

The DBS manga being called a legitimate sequel literally only indicates how 正統 doesn't mean canon.

In your view, which is not supported by my examples or VIZ and Herms saying the translation is right

And we know from the Granola Arc where they go in detail about the process, what it means by them working together and his ideas for the story are him giving advice and minor additions to Toybles creations, and he only comes up with the idea for minor things like the existence of the Heeters and Sugarians.

Um, I suggest you rewatch that interview. Toyotaro literally states a ton of it was Toriyama's idea, including the existence of Namekians beyond Namek and says he can't make major changes to the series without Toriyama.

Even in that interview, Toyotaro clearly describes how Moro as a character was his creation.

And that contradicts his statements about how much work was put into it by Toriyama how?

I did not downplay anything in any way, I just don't misinterpret cherry-picked oneliners and completely misrepresent them outside of all the other context and correlated information we have where we can clearly see what's actually the case.

Except you do, since you keep claiming Toriyama only did "minor work" on both arcs when the interview itself has Toyotaro state repeatedly how much work Toriyama put into it, that after Toyotaro pitched the idea, Toriyama came up with a proper plot proposal. Hell, paying attention to the interview, they state a ton of the big plot stuff was Toriyama's idea. From 2:31-3:03 "Not only did he understand what I was going for, he gave me advice to improve it AND RETURNED IT TO ME AS SOMETHING PRETTY SPECIAL, I WAS BLOWN AWAY. It BECAME HUNDREDS OF TIMES BETTER THAN I THOUGHT IT COULD and I started to think it could turn out amazing." Interviewer: "Absolutely, the stuff about Namekians, the new Dragon balls, the new dragon all those elements together, Toriyama took your ideas and ran with them and we finally got something that feels like Dragon Ball Super". Now if you're dishonest, you could claim that that means the Namekians and new dragon balls were Toyotaro's ideas, despite being listed as things Toriyama ran with and added but the Interview makes it super clear the big plot changes were Toriyama's idea.

Toyotaro: There are certain things I can't do. Like, in my position. Honestly, creating new Dragon balls isn't something I'm supposed to get involved with. So I'm greatful TORIYAMA PUT THAT ON THE TABLE FOR ME TO WORK WITH (Stating the new Dragon Balls were Toriyama's idea).

Then again for the reveal of the Namekians being from a different planet "I definitely CAN'T MAKE THAT KIND OF DECISION, THAT CAME FROM TORIYAMA.

And again, seconds later "TORIYAMA SHARED ALL KINDS OF HIDDEN DRAGON BALL TRUTHS WITH ME so I was GRADUALLY ABLE TO REVEAL THEM ALL."

Ideas he came up for his non canon manga adaptation and only that. He never says he added it the original draft and only talks about how Vegito wasn't there in that draft.



This ridiculous idea that the manga with it's month to month production schedule came up with Vegito being in DBS, when the anime did it first several months before couldn't be more wrong.

Except, it's right, seeing as Toriyama's sitting right there and both agree that adding Vegito was Toyotaro's idea. It's not ridiculous. They literally tell us what he did. Your interpretation relies on assuming that they didn't talk about this for months when they both got the script. Literally everyone agrees that it was Toyotaro's idea to add that. Not "his idea for the manga" but his idea period.

Let me break this down: The anime and manga both receive the script. We know for a fact that both go into production around the same time. We know for a fact the manga takes longer to write as Toriyama and Toyotaro trade ideas. We know for a fact Vegito appearing was Toyotaro's idea. We know for a fact that despite appearing in the anime first Iwan, Giin, Mosco, Rumsshi, Arak, and Liquiir were designed by Toyotaro and Belmod and Heles were designed by them working together. So we know that the anime does receive notes and designs from the two even while the manga is behind. Your claim that it couldn't have been his idea is laughable when not only does he say it was his idea to add him, we know for a fact the anime implements ideas and designs from him.

???

He literally says Granolah, Bardock, Ultra Ego, the Dragon Balls, etc. were all his ideas. Toriyama's work is literally only giving advice to putting together some of Toyble's ideas and this is the context behind him creating a draft, this does not mean he wrote the story, because they're still Toyble's ideas, not his.

Literally your own screenshot contradicts you by saying Toriyama added the heaters and created a new set of Dragon Balls, which Toyotaro felt only Toriyama has the authority to do. Again, the interview shows how much of the Plot was Toriyama's idea, and he was more than a "Yes man" like you claimed.

That's because being a side gaiden doesn't contradict it being "legitimate", because that word only means official.

Canon works being called legitimate in another example =/= that word itself means canon, this is more non sequitur logic.

That's not a non-sequiter. The word literally means Legitimate or Orthodox, which is the same word as canon. The translation's been confirmed.

The Dragon Ball Super Manga will never. be canon no matter how much misrepresented misinformation you post to try and say it is, because it's an adaptation of the anime and movies, by nature making it non canon and any exaggerations you bring about Toriyama's involvement irrelevant.

I'll post this again, since it must have not been noticed earlier for this discussion to be continuing in any shape or form.

News | Early "Dragon Ball Super" Story Details in August 2015 V-Jump

The August 2015 issue of V-Jump in Japan provides preliminary details on the upcoming 'Dragon Ball Super' TV series set to debut in July

www.kanzenshuu.com

Based on the actual context behind this dialogue, this just seems like a weirdly worded translation from a french user who doesn't speak English as the first language.

Um, except it doesn't. You even literally hear Toyotaro mention Akira Toriyama's name and say the words "mangaka" and "manga" during the translated bit, so the translation is fine.

Toyotaro literally says right before that Toriyama's writing is the rough script that the manga and anime both get, not that his work is the manga or any nonsense like that.

And as far as that comment, he's specifically referring to how the Anime and Manga, despite being produced independently, sometimes cross reference each other (although this is really just Toyble coping since it's evidently one sided with him copying the anime).

This is litally just speculation as I've given examples of Toyotaro stating ideas of his that ended up being in the anime such as Vegito and his designs

Basically, this translation seems to only referr to how Toriyama seems to add some details to the rough script for the manga adaptation (which coincides with how the anime by 2017 was far ahead of the manga) , and even Toyble localizes Toriyama's story to the rough script and that line (assuming it's even an accurate translation in the first place, because it doesn't add up with how Toriyama himself describes his work on the anime, where he checks every detail and eliminates and changs things as he sees fit during production itself, so how can it be the case only finds out these ideas after watching the episode, so it even seems more likely this is referring to Toyble, not Toriyama) is referring to the draft Toyble get, not the manga itself.

I mean, the issue with that interpretation is he literally says Toriyama's name and the word mangaka.

Translations | "Dragon Ball Super" Manga Vol. 1 Tori-Toyo Interview (Book Version)

English translation of the interview with Akira Toriyama and Toyotaro from Shueisha's first volume of 'Dragon Ball Super' manga in Japan

www.kanzenshuu.com

Literally any change or addition in the draft from Toei has to go by Toriyama during production and he himself approves them (this is not the case of him not being involved and watching the anime later and taking newfound ideas from it), so this interpretation of this quote makes no sense at all.

Um, my guy? So, this doesn't say he checks every detail like you're claiming. Just that when he does oversee production, he asks them to change or eliminate something. You're extrapolating again. In fact, we know for a fact that occassionally, the staff doesn't even see him at all. For example, during the Broly movie, he didn't even check their work at all. Quote: "The only time I spoke with [Toriyama] directly was at the film’s screening number zero (an initial private screening for staff members), so I actually didn’t consult with him at all before starting production on it. So I took his script itself as his message saying, “just do it right."

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Um, that just says FANS can decide if it is or not. That's not confirmation that it is or isn't. You're INTENTIONALLY using your own interpretation to claim he gave a hard denial instead of saying "That's up to the readers to decide at this stage. I would be happy if you could imagine freely and enjoy it. may be revealed someday." I wasn't ignoring it, it was a non-issue.

Nah. The fact is, a supposedly officially canon story would not be treated with such unimportance to the point Okada would say something like that.

And it was revealed someday, when G Assassin came out with its insane differences to the canon story (Kanon letting Rhadamanthys live and them never dying together, Izo being alive in the 20th century, these are not retcons in any way).

Not to mention Assasin's usage of non canonical character and Cloth designs. It's literally ridiculous how anyone who has seen or read the anime or mangas of Saint Seiya can somehow think Assassin is canon, when the literal setting and world itself of Assassin is a non canonical depiction.

Casual "Relaxed and UNCONCERNED" "LACKING A HIGH DEGREE OF INTEREST OR DEVOTION" "DONE WITHOUT SERIOUS INTENT OR DEVOTION" Oh look, the definition agrees with me.

In reality it agrees with me, since this is in reference to the coherence of the story and background and the effort put into it (the context of him saying this is literally in reference to how it would be difficult for a first time DB viewer to understand the character relationships watching the SH Movie).

It doesn't, but OK.

I mean, it literally flashed back to the events of the movie.

He indicated it might have some differences, and then when it came out, we literally see the exact same events happened.

How's that? We don't know who fought Broly and when, all we know is that Goku and Vegeta fought Broly, fused into Gogeta and he was wished away. You're hanging a lot of doubt on a single panel recap that is just there to give an overview of events, despite the fact anime and manga do that all the time to recap events you've already seen.

In reality it absolutely does, Superhero just like Broly is part of the Anime as confirmed by Toriyama multiple times. Even if it was the case otherwise, that still wouldn't make them part of the manga (due to the numerous differences and being an adaptation) and would just be their own continuity that's the DBS canon. No matter how you slice it, the DBS Manga isn't canon.



Even one of the best translators (Ian/Cipher) has recently acknowledged the Superhero arc in the manga being officially treated as an adaptation, confirming what I explain to be the case here.

In regards to the differences, like most of Dragon Ball Super, besides the Bardock flashback in the beginning, Dragon Ball Super Broly is entirely based on nothing but nonstop fighting. When it shows explicit differences in the scenery (something that's affected by the fighting) and the battle damage on the cast (something dictated by the fight sequences), this indicates a major difference in the story, because the fights literally are the story here.

No, its literally multiple panels that's completely different from the movie, and even if Toyble had made a 1:1 adaptation of the movie (he didn't as explained), the fact that Toriyama even considered that at first on it's own completely eliminates the manga from having the canon status regardless, and only confirms the situation of the manga being an adaptation of the Anime, hence not canon.

It says he decided who all the universe 7 warriors WERE and how PICCOLO fought, and the course of events for universes 7 and 11. That's not the whole of u7's fights. That's super specific.

Is English genuinely not your first language or something to even say something like this?

How much of the story was written out in Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft? Nakamura: The course of events for the Universe 7 warriors was written out in a document from beginning to end. For instance, who Piccolo fights and loses to, and who ultimately survives. Plus the course of the battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11… all of the main points were written out.

Nakamura first says that the all the events for the U7 were written out front to backs. He simply uses Piccolo as an example to compliment how detailed the draft was, not to specifically say Piccolo's (a literal irrelevant side character in the ToP) fights were all written out.

Note the verbiage "for instance"

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/for-instance#:~:text=as%20an%20example%3B%20for%20example

The course of events for U7 is literally the fights and eliminations, that's all the ToP is. In conclusion, the manga isn't nearly as faithful to Toriyama's draft as claimed and anime is far closer to it, but I'll say it as many times as needed, even if were, the manga's confirmed status as an adaptation of the Anime makes it so that no matter what in regards to Toriyama involvement or faithfulness, the manga is is non-canon in every possible scenario.

In your view, which is not supported by my examples or VIZ and Herms saying the translation is right

How actual native japanese sources such as DDnavi clearly use it>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incorrect speculation from a non-native speaker.

Um, I suggest you rewatch that interview. Toyotaro literally states a ton of it was Toriyama's idea, including the existence of Namekians beyond Namek and says he can't make major changes to the series without Toriyama.

That's simply referring to the lore and background information used in the Granolah Arc, something that's not exclusive to the Super Manga but the whole franchise.

The fact is, he confirms everything relevant and actually most important to the story were all original ideas of his (Toyble).

Except, it's right, seeing as Toriyama's sitting right there and both agree that adding Vegito was Toyotaro's idea. It's not ridiculous. They literally tell us what he did. Your interpretation relies on assuming that they didn't talk about this for months when they both got the script. Literally everyone agrees that it was Toyotaro's idea to add that. Not "his idea for the manga" but his idea period.

Let me break this down: The anime and manga both receive the script. We know for a fact that both go into production around the same time. We know for a fact the manga takes longer to write as Toriyama and Toyotaro trade ideas. We know for a fact Vegito appearing was Toyotaro's idea. We know for a fact that despite appearing in the anime first Iwan, Giin, Mosco, Rumsshi, Arak, and Liquiir were designed by Toyotaro and Belmod and Heles were designed by them working together. So we know that the anime does receive notes and designs from the two even while the manga is behind. Your claim that it couldn't have been his idea is laughable when not only does he say it was his idea to add him, we know for a fact the anime implements ideas and designs from him.

Naturally, Toriyama would agree that something that appears in the manga that wasn't in his draft was Toyble's idea. This doesn't change the fact that Vegito appeared in the anime first. Your argument is literally an interpretation reliant on vague wording that completely contradicts all other facts of the matter.

And did you seriously send random fan forum comments and comicbook.com as some sort of argument? This indicates how lacking in evidence your interpretation clearly is, when even on the forum or that article nowhere does anyone seem to say that Toyble is responsible for Vegito appearing in the Anime in particular, and only discuss how it wasn't in the draft but he still did it in the manga.

They originally went into production at a similar time, but the anime subsequently went far ahead of the manga due to it being monthly. No, Toriyama and Toyotaro never traded ideas pre Moro/Granolah in any way nor did it slow the writing effort and this was literally never said , the production process is simply Toriyama's draft + adapting Toei's Anime + Toyble's ideas finalized by Toriyama's yes-man approval with only some minor artistic corrections.

In reality, what we know for a fact is that Toyotaro himself confirms that his manga's product is an adaptation of the TV Anime. What he designed for the anime or even the whole DBS brand is irrelevant for the canonicity of the manga. Even if he did give ideas (something that isn't the case), this still wouldn't change the fact the manga is not canon in the sense of existing in the canonical universe of Dragon Ball, since it's only an adaptation of it, a fact you seem to keep ignoring.

And that contradicts his statements about how much work was put into it by Toriyama how?

Except you do, since you keep claiming Toriyama only did "minor work" on both arcs when the interview itself has Toyotaro state repeatedly how much work Toriyama put into it, that after Toyotaro pitched the idea, Toriyama came up with a proper plot proposal. Hell, paying attention to the interview, they state a ton of the big plot stuff was Toriyama's idea. From 2:31-3:03 "Not only did he understand what I was going for, he gave me advice to improve it AND RETURNED IT TO ME AS SOMETHING PRETTY SPECIAL, I WAS BLOWN AWAY. It BECAME HUNDREDS OF TIMES BETTER THAN I THOUGHT IT COULD and I started to think it could turn out amazing." Interviewer: "Absolutely, the stuff about Namekians, the new Dragon balls, the new dragon all those elements together, Toriyama took your ideas and ran with them and we finally got something that feels like Dragon Ball Super". Now if you're dishonest, you could claim that that means the Namekians and new dragon balls were Toyotaro's ideas, despite being listed as things Toriyama ran with and added but the Interview makes it super clear the big plot changes were Toriyama's idea.

Toyotaro: There are certain things I can't do. Like, in my position. Honestly, creating new Dragon balls isn't something I'm supposed to get involved with. So I'm greatful TORIYAMA PUT THAT ON THE TABLE FOR ME TO WORK WITH (Stating the new Dragon Balls were Toriyama's idea).

Then again for the reveal of the Namekians being from a different planet "I definitely CAN'T MAKE THAT KIND OF DECISION, THAT CAME FROM TORIYAMA.

And again, seconds later "TORIYAMA SHARED ALL KINDS OF HIDDEN DRAGON BALL TRUTHS WITH ME so I was GRADUALLY ABLE TO REVEAL THEM ALL."

When the main antagonist and new character and plot point of the arc is made by Toyble, the notion of an extensive involvement from Toriyama is nothing but an exaggeration.

Nah, the only dishonesty here is somehow thinking ideas Toriyama ran with are ideas he created, especially when it literally says otherwise.

What Toriyama put on the table for Toyble is advice and putting his ideas together (Granolah, Bardock, Ultra Ego, etc. all came from Toyble) , none of Toriyama's original input like character designs are relevant.

Also, again, none of this is evidence for canonicity or disproves the official status of the manga as an adaptation of the anime and movies, and even if what you said were actually true, it still wouldn't be.

Literally your own screenshot contradicts you by saying Toriyama added the heaters and created a new set of Dragon Balls, which Toyotaro felt only Toriyama has the authority to do. Again, the interview shows how much of the Plot was Toriyama's idea, and he was more than a "Yes man" like you claimed.

It still indicates that it was Toyble's ideas to do it and Toriyama just brought them life (hence the mention of Toyble's original thoughts being only Toriyama had that authority), something confirmed in the earlier bullet point mentioning how it was Toyble's idea.

Toriyama is literally a "yes man", just watch the part Toyble discusses the incorporation of Bardock.

That's not a non-sequiter. The word literally means Legitimate or Orthodox, which is the same word as canon. The translation's been confirmed.

Legitimate or Orthodox only indicates a meaning of being official or licensed, that's not the same word same word as canon.

The argument for it somehow meaning canon is literally "oh some other products that happen to be canon were also called legitimate so that must mean it describes canonicity itself", this is completely non sequitur. Those products were only highlighted as official in that instance and it wasn't to their supposed canonicity, because canonicity has nothing to do with this phrase.

Um, except it doesn't. You even literally hear Toyotaro mention Akira Toriyama's name and say the words "mangaka" and "manga" during the translated bit, so the translation is fine.

This is litally just speculation as I've given examples of Toyotaro stating ideas of his that ended up being in the anime such as Vegito and his designs

I mean, the issue with that interpretation is he literally says Toriyama's name and the word mangaka.

"Manga" can be heard, but the excerpt after that can't properly be heard at all from the translator talking over him.

Although if you want to insist using this translation, that's fine, since it makes sense that Toriyama would take details from the canonical anime and put it into his draft for the manga's adaptation and this would actually further confirm the stated dichotomy of the manga being an adaptation for the anime, something confirmed by Toyble himself.

News | Early "Dragon Ball Super" Story Details in August 2015 V-Jump

The August 2015 issue of V-Jump in Japan provides preliminary details on the upcoming 'Dragon Ball Super' TV series set to debut in July

www.kanzenshuu.com

Super SCOOP!! #7
The comic adaptation by Toyotarō-sensei starts this issue!!

Comment From Toyotarō-sensei
“Getting to see a new DB anime series every week makes me too happy! With this comicalization, I want to make my own small contribution to the excitement, so everyone please check out the manga, too!”

There is no issue with this interpretation nor is it speculation since it's based on all the facts presented across every interview rather than cherry picked misrepresented one liners removed from context. Toyotaro right before that attributes the script itself to Toriyama, and that's the story he's referring to.

Um, my guy? So, this doesn't say he checks every detail like you're claiming. Just that when he does oversee production, he asks them to change or eliminate something. You're extrapolating again. In fact, we know for a fact that occassionally, the staff doesn't even see him at all. For example, during the Broly movie, he didn't even check their work at all. Quote: "The only time I spoke with [Toriyama] directly was at the film’s screening number zero (an initial private screening for staff members), so I actually didn’t consult with him at all before starting production on it. So I took his script itself as his message saying, “just do it right."

That was specifically for the movie where the production process obviously is completely different, because for the movies, Toriyama himself handwrites all the screenplay and dialogue so he obviously doesn't need to enforce the same level of supervision compared to the anime where Toei adds many things, something Nagamine confirms in the same interview.

and it was my personal mission to use that same method this time around, trying not to change lines or add things if possible. However, realistically speaking, I had to make everything fit into a 100 minute timeframe, so… there were lines like, “Yes, Lord Freeza” where I would cut off the “Yes” and leave it as just “Lord Freeza” (laughs), and I shaved off small bits here and there. It couldn’t be too jam-packed though; it needed room to breathe, and I took care to make sure the overall mood of his script remained, along with leaving his nuances and Toriyama-isms intact as much as possible. That was what I felt was the best way to handle his screenplay, and I went about creating the film with that in mind.

This is also because of how much he trusts and commends Toei's ability to turn his screenplays into what he deems to be 1st class.

When it comes to the all-important battle scenes, Toei Animation is great. I just write stuff out and leave the rest to them, and they come back with super 1st-class battles. It's too intense for an old man like me, but I'm sure you won't soon forget these furious fight scenes that utilize every trick in the book. The entire staff did a great job.

This does not change the fact his supervision and involvement in the TV Anime is continually emphasized, and the confirmation that nothing in his draft can be changed or nothing can be added without his approval, and he even confirms how he often takes the liberty to eliminate various additions from Toei as he saw fit.

 

[AlexZiggy]

So what are the actual contradictions between G and Classic/ND that can't be explained away via timeline differences?
You can have a shared canon multiverse, they don't have to coexist within the same timeline.
Anyways, do you guys think we can scale 9th Sense users to infinite speed via Shura's feat? There might be scaling issues regarding Cronos but its worth looking at imo

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Nah. The fact is, a supposedly officially canon story would not be treated with such unimportance to the point Okada would say something like that.

....Yeah it would. I can list examples from American comics and anime that do the same, saying a comic or anime can be decided to be part of the main universe or not, but it demonstratably is (the big one of course is The Killing Joke, but I got other examples). You're interpreting it as that because you don't want it to be canon.

And it was revealed someday, when G Assassin came out with its insane differences to the canon story (Kanon letting Rhadamanthys live and them never dying together, Izo being alive in the 20th century, these are not retcons in any way).

Izo literally says he came back to life and doesn't understand why. That's literally explained. Kanon and Rhadamathus being alive is because of the time issues and aren't from the main storyline. In the end, Seiya and the Five Bronzes say EVERYONE, good and bad is gone.

Not to mention Assasin's usage of non canonical character and Cloth designs. It's literally ridiculous how anyone who has seen or read the anime or mangas of Saint Seiya can somehow think Assassin is canon, when the literal setting and world itself of Assassin is a non canonical depiction.

This is not actually an argument. Anime and manga introduce things from other media into the main canon all the time. Bardock was literally created from Anime and brought to the main universe. So was Vegito's Final Flash, which originally from a video game. Retcanon is a thing.

In reality it agrees with me, since this is in reference to the coherence of the story and background and the effort put into it (the context of him saying this is literally in reference to how it would be difficult for a first time DB viewer to understand the character relationships watching the SH Movie).

That's not the context, but whatever, I'm over this argument.

In reality it absolutely does, Superhero just like Broly is part of the Anime as confirmed by Toriyama multiple times. Even if it was the case otherwise, that still wouldn't make them part of the manga (due to the numerous differences and being an adaptation) and would just be their own continuity that's the DBS canon. No matter how you slice it, the DBS Manga isn't canon.

Yeah, no. Disagree strongly especially with Toriyama calling it his story, it being labelled the official sequel to the manga repeatedly.

Even one of the best translators (Ian/Cipher) has recently acknowledged the Superhero arc in the manga being officially treated as an adaptation, confirming what I explain to be the case here.

In regards to the differences, like most of Dragon Ball Super, besides the Bardock flashback in the beginning, Dragon Ball Super Broly is entirely based on nothing but nonstop fighting. When it shows explicit differences in the scenery (something that's affected by the fighting) and the battle damage on the cast (something dictated by the fight sequences), this indicates a major difference in the story, because the fights literally are the story here.

No, that just indicates the same events happened, and is just a brief overview of the events. We literally see the main storybeats happen. This is like claiming a storyline in DC isn't canon because the flashback is slightly different than the events were depicted originally.

No, its literally multiple panels that's completely different from the movie, and even if Toyble had made a 1:1 adaptation of the movie (he didn't as explained), the fact that Toriyama even considered that at first on it's own completely eliminates the manga from having the canon status regardless, and only confirms the situation of the manga being an adaptation of the Anime, hence not canon.

"Multiple panels completely different". Not really. It's just Broly fighting Goku and Vegeta in ice in one panel to summarize their battle against Broly, then we see their fusion (With Piccolo in the background) which is just like the movie, and Broly being wished away exactly like the movie.

Is English genuinely not your first language or something to even say something like this?

No, but I'm starting to think it might be yours.

Nakamura first says that the all the events for the U7 were written out front to backs. He simply uses Piccolo as an example to compliment how detailed the draft was, not to specifically say Piccolo's (a literal irrelevant side character in the ToP) fights were all written out.

Note the verbiage "for instance"

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/for-instance#:~:text=as%20an%20example%3B%20for%20example

The course of events for U7 is literally the fights and eliminations, that's all the ToP is.

This is an extrapolation, and it ignores them literally noting fights they wrote themselves, such as the 18/Ribiraine fight and Freeza giving energy to Goku. They literally say that what he designed is who is eliminated and the fights with Piccolo and such. You're extrapolating this to mean he planned every part of it. Hell, Toriyama himself literally says in an interview for Dragon Ball Super:Hero that all he writes is "and then these two characters fight" and the anime team does the rest.

In conclusion, the manga isn't nearly as faithful to Toriyama's draft as claimed and anime is far closer to it, but I'll say it as many times as needed, even if were, the manga's confirmed status as an adaptation of the Anime makes it so that no matter what in regards to Toriyama involvement or faithfulness, the manga is is non-canon in every possible scenario.

Not what that means, but whatever.

How actual native japanese sources such as DDnavi clearly use it>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incorrect speculation from a non-native speaker.

Incorrect because YOU don't agree with it =/= incorrect. But again, whatever.

That's simply referring to the lore and background information used in the Granolah Arc, something that's not exclusive to the Super Manga but the whole franchise.]

That's not what that means. He's explictly saying these developments were Toiyama's idea.

The fact is, he confirms everything relevant and actually most important to the story were all original ideas of his (Toyble).

So, the Villains (Who were Toriyama's creation) aren't important? The New Dragon Balls aren't important? The Namekians original home planet aren't important to the story? OK.

Naturally, Toriyama would agree that something that appears in the manga that wasn't in his draft was Toyble's idea. This doesn't change the fact that Vegito appeared in the anime first. Your argument is literally an interpretation reliant on vague wording that completely contradicts all other facts of the matter

Except, again, It premiering in the anime first doesn't mean it's not Toyotaro's idea. Especially since as you and I both showed, Toyotaro admitted the anime does take some of his ideas, and we've seen they take his character designs as well.

And did you seriously send random fan forum comments and comicbook.com as some sort of argument? This indicates how lacking in evidence your interpretation clearly is, when even on the forum or that article nowhere does anyone seem to say that Toyble is responsible for Vegito appearing in the Anime in particular, and only discuss how it wasn't in the draft but he still did it in the manga.

Except, it's talking about Vegito's appearance and in both, they state that because Toyataro had the idea of Vegito showing up, Vegito appeared period. If there's a source contradicting this, then please, show the anime coming up with the idea independently, because from what I've found, it was literally Toyotaro's idea.

They originally went into production at a similar time, but the anime subsequently went far ahead of the manga due to it being monthly. No, Toriyama and Toyotaro never traded ideas pre Moro/Granolah in any way nor did it slow the writing effort and this was literally never said , the production process is simply Toriyama's draft + adapting Toei's Anime + Toyble's ideas finalized by Toriyama's yes-man approval with only some minor artistic corrections.

^This is literally downplay from what they've directly stated. Toyotaro directly stated the anime also takes ideas from him and it's a process in the same interview he states Toriyama considers the manga "His story". Deny that all you want.

In reality, what we know for a fact is that Toyotaro himself confirms that his manga's product is an adaptation of the TV Anime. What he designed for the anime or even the whole DBS brand is irrelevant for the canonicity of the manga. Even if he did give ideas (something that isn't the case), this still wouldn't change the fact the manga is not canon in the sense of existing in the canonical universe of Dragon Ball, since it's only an adaptation of it, a fact you seem to keep ignoring.

So, it is the case, as mentioned. Besides his words, I already showed the anime using the designs and things he came up with.

And again, it adapting something doesn't make it non-canon. It simply means it's placing things from one medium in another. If one series ends and another one continues, they even can swap canonicity, which has happened in comics and anime before. Here's an example: The events of the Code Geass movies were an adaptation of the cartoon, but the creators of Code Geass Ressurection confirmed that Ressurection (Which follows the events of the movies) was the new canon.

When the main antagonist and new character and plot point of the arc is made by Toyble, the notion of an extensive involvement from Toriyama is nothing but an exaggeration.

Nah, the only dishonesty here is somehow thinking ideas Toriyama ran with are ideas he created, especially when it literally says otherwise.

What Toriyama put on the table for Toyble is advice and putting his ideas together (Granolah, Bardock, Ultra Ego, etc. all came from Toyble) , none of Toriyama's original input like character designs are relevant.

My guy. He literally stated they were Toriyama's ideas. Granolah came from Toyotaro, Bardock and Ultra Ego came from Toyotaro. These are true. The Heeters came from Toriyama. Not just their designs, he literally created them and added them to the story. He did the same with the Namekian Reveals and the new Dragon Balls. "Running with" an idea means taking the original thought and ADDING YOUR OWN TO MAKE IT SUCCESSFUL
Something that's obvious with how Toyotaro talks about the parts that Toriyama added and how he made Toyotaro's ideas "hundreds of times better"

Also, again, none of this is evidence for canonicity or disproves the official status of the manga as an adaptation of the anime and movies, and even if what you said were actually true, it still wouldn't be.

It still indicates that it was Toyble's ideas to do it and Toriyama just brought them life (hence the mention of Toyble's original thoughts being only Toriyama had that authority), something confirmed in the earlier bullet point mentioning how it was Toyble's idea.

Toriyama is literally a "yes man", just watch the part Toyble discusses the incorporation of Bardock.

So, he's a yes man, but he rejected a bunch of Toyotaro's ideas? Also, watching it, all he does is accept Bardock's introduction (Gonna Gloss over them calling the manga the "main story", the same term Toriyama uses to describe his manga compared to the Z anime for now because I know you're gonna complain about that.) so how does that make him a yes man

Legitimate or Orthodox only indicates a meaning of being official or licensed, that's not the same word same word as canon.

"Canon" literally means "legitimate or orthodox". And in fiction it means means "I the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its fan base. It is often contrasted with, or used as the basis for, works of fan fiction. The alternative terms mythology, timeline, universe and continuity are often used, with the first of these being used especially to refer to a richly detailed fictional canon requiring a large degree of suspension of disbelief (e.g. an entire imaginary world and history), while the latter two typically refer to a single arc where all events are directly connected chronologically. Other times, the word can mean "to be acknowledged by the creator(s)". Seeing as Bird Studios and Viz declared the events of the manga officially part of the timeline, I don't see how you can deny that it's acknowledged by the Creator to be part of the timeline.

The argument for it somehow meaning canon is literally "oh some other products that happen to be canon were also called legitimate so that must mean it describes canonicity itself", this is completely non sequitur. Those products were only highlighted as official in that instance and it wasn't to their supposed canonicity, because canonicity has nothing to do with this phrase.

Except it does.

"Manga" can be heard, but the excerpt after that can't properly be heard at all from the translator talking over him.

Although if you want to insist using this translation, that's fine, since it makes sense that Toriyama would take details from the canonical anime and put it into his draft for the manga's adaptation and this would actually further confirm the stated dichotomy of the manga being an adaptation for the anime, something confirmed by Toyble himself.

News | Early "Dragon Ball Super" Story Details in August 2015 V-Jump

The August 2015 issue of V-Jump in Japan provides preliminary details on the upcoming 'Dragon Ball Super' TV series set to debut in July

www.kanzenshuu.com

There is no issue with this interpretation nor is it speculation since it's based on all the facts presented across every interview rather than cherry picked misrepresented one liners removed from context. Toyotaro right before that attributes the script itself to Toriyama, and that's the story he's referring to.

That makes no sense, since he then declares that the manga is his story and the conversation is about the interaction the manga and anime have with each other.

That was specifically for the movie where the production process obviously is completely different, because for the movies, Toriyama himself handwrites all the screenplay and dialogue so he obviously doesn't need to enforce the same level of supervision compared to the anime where Toei adds many things, something Nagamine confirms in the same interview.

This is also because of how much he trusts and commends Toei's ability to turn his screenplays into what he deems to be 1st class.


This does not change the fact his supervision and involvement in the TV Anime is continually emphasized, and the confirmation that nothing in his draft can be changed or nothing can be added without his approval, and he even confirms how he often takes the liberty to eliminate various additions from Toei as he saw fit.

I literally mentioned above how they added things that weren't in Toriyama's draft.

We're never gonna agree on this, but part of that is you're intentionally downplaying my evidence for your own.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

So what are the actual contradictions between G and Classic/ND that can't be explained away via timeline differences?
You can have a shared canon multiverse, they don't have to coexist within the same timeline.
Anyways, do you guys think we can scale 9th Sense users to infinite speed via Shura's feat? There might be scaling issues regarding Cronos but its worth looking at imo

Probably. We all know 9th sense users scale above 8th sense users even with miracles since it takes a miracle to even get to the 9th sense.

 

[StekFence]

Anyways, do you guys think we can scale 9th Sense users to infinite speed via Shura's feat? There might be scaling issues regarding Cronos but its worth looking at imo

Well, I can see a discrepancy from how deities need gear or techniques to do these things, and then shura just ******* cuts fast, but chalk it up to shura being busted idk

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Wait, what feat are we talking about? Shura surpassing the Big Bang was what I was assuming

 

[StekFence]

Talking about how the cyclops in G req created infinite attacks, and shura just negs them with slashes.
edit: the lack of a response is making me think I just made that up

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Talking about how the cyclops in G req created infinite attacks, and shura just negs them with slashes

Oh, then that one I'd argue is a mix of 9th sense and him using Ex Machina, which is unique to him

 

[AlexZiggy]

He did use Ex Machina but he tapped into the 9th Sense to go 'FTL', and he says he will be even faster than SoL to block the attack, so I'm not sure it's the technique that grants him the speed boost. Wasn't Ex Machina the ability he used to sever the karmic bond between Aiolia and Zeus? Not sure how it relates to speed

 

[AlexZiggy]

To be clear I'm not saying it can't be something only Shura (and Brontes) has, I just dont think it being intercepted by Ex Machina is a great argument against the speed scaling.
The last time the feat was brought up it was rejected for... let's say interesting reasons and I feel it merits a re-evaluation. As I recall, the counter-arguments were as follows:
1. "Shura went 'superluminal', therefore the feat must only be ftl"

• Infinite speed is faster than light, so something literally being called 'faster than light' doesn't debunk it being infinite speed.​

2. "Okada didn't draw infinite fists on the page"

• This is one is self explanatory. Okada cannot draw infinite fists on a finite panel within a finite time frame. If you think this fact somehow debunks the feat I implore you to downgrade every other infinite speed feat on the basis that such feats are realistically impossible to convey with 100% accuracy.​

3. "Shura didn't actually intercept the fists, he just swung once and slashed them all"​

• This is one I can kind of see. We don't see Shura blitzing around the panel intercepting every single fist (that too would be impossible to portray), we just see him use Ex Machina which counters the attack. Although if swinging once was enough to block the blow I'm unsure as to why anything beyond lightspeed was necessary.​

​

In any case, Brontes should most definitely have infinite speed for his attacks, Seiya literally states he multiplies shit by infinity.​

​

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

....Yeah it would. I can list examples from American comics and anime that do the same, saying a comic or anime can be decided to be part of the main universe or not, but it demonstratably is (the big one of course is The Killing Joke, but I got other examples). You're interpreting it as that because you don't want it to be canon.

Saint Seiya is not an American comic and this just seems like faulty logic on that genre's end.

If the author himself doesn't have the audacity to place Episode G in the main timeline, and Kurumada never participated it and constantly contradicts it, chances are it genuinely isn't.

Izo literally says he came back to life and doesn't understand why. That's literally explained. Kanon and Rhadamathus being alive is because of the time issues and aren't from the main storyline. In the end, Seiya and the Five Bronzes say EVERYONE, good and bad is gone.

The problem is Izo's age here, where he's an extremely old man. This indicates that his revival happened a really long time ago and is still contradictory information to the canonical timeline, where it's hammered home continually Shion and Dohko were the only survivors.

Rhadamanthys appears in the Underworld of the main world, and they talk about cutting a deal to make peace between each other and owing Kanon one. They are from the main world.

They're only referring to those who were foreign to their timeline or era.

This is not actually an argument. Anime and manga introduce things from other media into the main canon all the time. Bardock was literally created from Anime and brought to the main universe. So was Vegito's Final Flash, which originally from a video game. Retcanon is a thing.

This isn't the same thing, because Bardock and the Final Flash were completely new concepts at the time into the canon

In this case, a lot of Assassins' versions of pre existing characters from the canon have non canon Toei designs for the God Cloth, and the non canon Toei hair colors of the cast. This isn't something that can get magically retconned or change.

No, that just indicates the same events happened, and is just a brief overview of the events. We literally see the main storybeats happen. This is like claiming a storyline in DC isn't canon because the flashback is slightly different than the events were depicted originally.

Dragon Ball =/= DC, although I'm sure DC has more clear cut evidence for whatever that is being supposedly canon than the Broly Movie being part of the manga. By default, especially for depictions of DBS Broly of scenes that were nothing but fighting having drastic differences in that aspect, it indicates the movie itself isn't part of the manga, only a story that follows some similar plot points. This is why even Toriyama thought there would be a diference.

The main story points do happen similarly to some extent, however this does not change the fact the details are quite different. This is similar to the discrepancy between the DB Manga and it's Anime adaptation, where despite following the same general plot points, the adaptation has numerous differences. Funnily enough, the DBS Manga is even called an adaptation just like it.

"Multiple panels completely different". Not really. It's just Broly fighting Goku and Vegeta in ice in one panel to summarize their battle against Broly, then we see their fusion (With Piccolo in the background) which is just like the movie, and Broly being wished away exactly like the movie.

That ice panel already has major discrepancies with the movie, as explained above.

No, the fusion panel isn't just like the movie at all, Goku and Vegeta have no battle damage there like the did in the Movie, not to mention Goku having a completely different outfit altogether. These major discrepancies separate from each other.

Although it's quite interesting that you even use individual similarities as some sort of evidence of an entire movie being part of the manga despite the major differences at the same time, as the Superhero Arc in the manga is around the corner, which'll inevitably have to be even more different from the movie due to Moro Arc Gohan.

No, but I'm starting to think it might be yours.

This is an extrapolation, and it ignores them literally noting fights they wrote themselves, such as the 18/Ribiraine fight and Freeza giving energy to Goku. They literally say that what he designed is who is eliminated and the fights with Piccolo and such. You're extrapolating this to mean he planned every part of it.

Frieza giving his energy to Goku is a minor detail that isn't actually part of any fight. It's not an extrapolation in any way, that's literally what the course of events is, and if a minor side character like Piccolo is cited as an example for having all his fights written out, the other major players of U7 naturally would've been too for that example to even work.

No, that "fight" in question is specifically referring to 18 and Ribrianne's argument we saw over their beliefs regarding love, not the fact of them fighting in general, something confirmed to have been decided by Toriyama.

Hell, Toriyama himself literally says in an interview for Dragon Ball Super:Hero that all he writes is "and then these two characters fight" and the anime team does the rest.

That's correct, he coordinates all the instances who fights who in his draft, something the Anime was confirmed to follow to a T. On the contrary, based on the different fights that happen in the manga, Toyble doesn't follow Toriyama's draft nearly as closely in comparison.

Incorrect because YOU don't agree with it =/= incorrect. But again, whatever.

It's incorrect simply because native japanese sources use it to describe non-canon material such as TLC and the DBS manga.

That's not what that means. He's explictly saying these developments were Toiyama's idea.

It's literally referring to lore and secrets of the "DB World", this is not something exclusive to the Granola Arc.

So, the Villains (Who were Toriyama's creation) aren't important? The New Dragon Balls aren't important? The Namekians original home planet aren't important to the story? OK.

Toriyama only came up with their concept and design, Toyble is the one who did the actual brainstorming. The Dragon Balls were created per Toyble's request, that's why he even says his thoughts were that only the original author had the authority to create something like that, indicating it's something he wanted but didn't feel comfortable doing of his own accord.

The Namekians' original home planet was literally completely irrelevant the entire arc.

Except, again, It premiering in the anime first doesn't mean it's not Toyotaro's idea. Especially since as you and I both showed, Toyotaro admitted the anime does take some of his ideas, and we've seen they take his character designs as well.

The anime never took any of his ideas beyond BoG where they went too far ahead, and they never took any unpublished ideas from in any way and this was never described anywhere. On the contrary, in that French interview you sent, he literally admitted that the manga and anime are produced independently and only proposes the prospect of them taking ideas from each other post publication. Character designs for the brand as a whole =/= giving ideas for the story, something Toyble himself indicates doesn't happen.

So no, Vegito appearing in the anime is not a result of Toyble.

Except, it's talking about Vegito's appearance and in both, they state that because Toyataro had the idea of Vegito showing up, Vegito appeared period. If there's a source contradicting this, then please, show the anime coming up with the idea independently, because from what I've found, it was literally Toyotaro's idea.

We know the anime came up with it independently because the did it several months before, and Toyble himself says that the anime and manga are independent of each other during production and that they don't discuss ideas.

In short, that interview only refers to Vegito appearing in the manga, and because the anime is simply mentioned nowhere in it.

^This is literally downplay from what they've directly stated. Toyotaro directly stated the anime also takes ideas from him and it's a process in the same interview he states Toriyama considers the manga "His story". Deny that all you want.

Toriyama doesn't consider the manga his story which is literally isn't, but rather the draft itself, which is what Toyble was referring to in that interview.

Something that only happened during BoG, even the editor of that interview only puts shots of the BoG anime and manga during that dialogue. No one is denying anything here in any way.

So, it is the case, as mentioned. Besides his words, I already showed the anime using the designs and things he came up with.

And again, it adapting something doesn't make it non-canon. It simply means it's placing things from one medium in another. If one series ends and another one continues, they even can swap canonicity, which has happened in comics and anime before. Here's an example: The events of the Code Geass movies were an adaptation of the cartoon, but the creators of Code Geass Ressurection confirmed that Ressurection (Which follows the events of the movies) was the new canon.

Something that isn't an argument for the canonicity of the manga itself in any way.

An adaptation is never the canonical version, that's the source material itself. This is exactly why the Z Anime isn't considered canon and only Toriyama's manga is.

Dragon Ball isn't Code Geass and that example means nothing for it, especially since a canonicity swap hasn't and never will happen in this instance, since the Superhero Arc in the manga is still simply an adaptation of the Anime movie.



Just the other day, Toriyama also confirmed that the Movie itself is part of the DB manga's continuity.



Along with the DBS Manga's version of the movie being an adaptation, the necessary differences are already foreshadowed by the Moro Arc being a thing, so from this fact it can be concluded for the 20th time that the manga is not canonical to the DB canon (Toriyama's manga continuity).

My guy. He literally stated they were Toriyama's ideas. Granolah came from Toyotaro, Bardock and Ultra Ego came from Toyotaro. These are true. The Heeters came from Toriyama. Not just their designs, he literally created them and added them to the story. He did the same with the Namekian Reveals and the new Dragon Balls. "Running with" an idea means taking the original thought and ADDING YOUR OWN TO MAKE IT SUCCESSFUL
Something that's obvious with how Toyotaro talks about the parts that Toriyama added and how he made Toyotaro's ideas "hundreds of times better"

So in the end, the major original ideas are still Toyotaro's, and the idea that Toriyama is a major writer is still an exaggeration.

How much better Toriyama made it in Toyble's perspective doesn't change the fact the latter came up with the material itself, and Toriyama's role was basically just quality control.

So, he's a yes man, but he rejected a bunch of Toyotaro's ideas? Also, watching it, all he does is accept Bardock's introduction (Gonna Gloss over them calling the manga the "main story", the same term Toriyama uses to describe his manga compared to the Z anime for now because I know you're gonna complain about that.) so how does that make him a yes man

I only remember him rejecting the especially laughable and absurd bullshit Toyble tried, like trying to self insert himself with a Belmod and Marcarita romantic relationship, but besides that he seems to be a yes-man to this ultimately irrelevant promotional adaptation.



Toyotaro by main story was simply referring to the plot of his manga, in the same tangent he also talks about making Bardock appear in a side story, even though by this point he publishes nothing but his monthly illustrations and and the Super Manga in V Jump. This in no way is a reference to the manga somehow being the main story, when the main story for the DBS brand is already known to be the Anime and Movies, and the manga is confirmed to be an adaptation of that main story.

"Canon" literally means "legitimate or orthodox". And in fiction it means means "I the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its fan base. It is often contrasted with, or used as the basis for, works of fan fiction. The alternative terms mythology, timeline, universe and continuity are often used, with the first of these being used especially to refer to a richly detailed fictional canon requiring a large degree of suspension of disbelief (e.g. an entire imaginary world and history), while the latter two typically refer to a single arc where all events are directly connected chronologically. Other times, the word can mean "to be acknowledged by the creator(s)". Seeing as Bird Studios and Viz declared the events of the manga officially part of the timeline, I don't see how you can deny that it's acknowledged by the Creator to be part of the timeline.

In the context of this conversation, canon = part of the main universe, something neither the DBS Manga nor Episode G can be part of, the former due to being a mere adaptation of the anime and movies with numerous confirmed story differences from Toriyama himself to the latter, and the latter for aforementioned reasons.

Toriyama doesn't acknowledge it as part of the timeline in any way, on the contrary he expected it to have various different story developments from something like the Broly movie which is an actual canon product.

Although, if you want to go by the criteria "acknowledged by the main creator", then by all means, the DBS manga and Episode G are canon. However, that doesn't necessarily mean they're part of the main universe, something which neither of them are.

Except it does.

It doesn't, because that term wasn't acknowledging canonicity in those examples in the first place.

That makes no sense, since he then declares that the manga is his story and the conversation is about the interaction the manga and anime have with each other.

The lack of an interaction between the anime and manga was one point mentioned, however right before referencing the Toriyama story, he explicitly mentions that Toriyama writes a rough draft for both the manga and anime, and then mentions with non specific wording that Toriyama adds things from the anime into his story.

Based on Toyble mentioning it moments earlier, the fact that the only thing Toriyama himself originally wrote at the time being the draft itself and neither the manga nor anime, the manga in nature being an adaptation of the anime (so naturally it's draft would be tweaked as the anime was fleshed out), and the explicit perceived story separation (even if Toyble ended up creating a somewhat similar adaptation and one ignores all the flagrant differences, Toriyama himself still started off thinking there'd be story differences in the manga that he straight up wasn't even properly aware of) from Toriyama himself between his actual stories such as Broly movie, it's extremely obvious this is referring to the draft itself.

I literally mentioned above how they added things that weren't in Toriyama's draft.

We're never gonna agree on this, but part of that is you're intentionally downplaying my evidence for your own.

Correct, and as stated, they need Toriyama's approval and have his supervision for any of these said changes, another reason why your interpretation of that interview makes no sense.

Coming to conclusions by actually accounting for all the facts and known context of the entire situation instead of extrapolating theories contradictory to other given information off of one liners isn't "downplaying" in any way at all.