The interesting thing is in the japanese it even specifically uses 力 for the Pope's dialogue in that scene, which seems to indicate that he most likely meant it in the sense of raw power, and at that time he hadn't gotten all these details yet about time travelling and had only seen the alignment of the sky foreshadowing Asclepius' escape and he only speculated the universe would be affected allowing Asclepius to bail out of Tartarus from that information alone.
To be honest this never made much sense to me, especially when most descriptions of Gold Saints' powers put them at star level or galaxy level at best.
I completely agree, me too.
Here we enter two different points, first the name of the technique, which is Ungyo (which is the word with which Shijima activates this technique), as Shun describes it in the universe of this series the Ungyo represents/symbolizes the end of the universe, because Kurumada was based on the guardians Angyo and Ungyo that represent life and death, so the Ungyo is the end and the Angyo is the beginning. But there is something different between the name of the technique and the description of what is the effect of this technique, because the effect as Shun himself points out is to recreate the end of the universe in that place. So the technique is called Ungyo (or Shijima uses this word to activate this technique) and has the power to recreate the end of the universe where it is used, that's why Shijima unleashed this technique to destroy them all (Shun, Tenma and Shaka's soul) recreating the end of the universe (shown as the darkness that consumes everything).The closest possible argument was Shaka vs. Shijima to put the elite Gold Saints at universal, but honestly I always saw some contextual issues with that fight. like some translations indicating that Shun and Shijima describes Agyo and Ugyo as just symbolism/metaphorical for Samsara/the cycle of reincarnation (even the visual is pretty eyebrow raising showing lizards and crocodiles the size of galaxies) and the attacks besides that panel were only depicted as their cosmos in the form of light/dark energy , and I never really understood how Shun would be able to observe an entire universe being created and destroyed, if even the Pope needs to go to Star Hill just to observe the stars in the sky in detail.
I even asked Shady recently if he could review chapter 58 for me in regards to this topic, and he also confirmed it was just described as symbolism.
Shijima directly describes Shaka's Agyo itself's effect as symbolic though. Star Hill is used to view the sky at night too, the point is that is they don't have anywhere near the ability to perceive an entire universe.
There's literally no narrative consistency to taking what he sees as literal though from what's seen, (I mean unless Shun can see entire galaxies and galactic sized lizards popping out of a galactic center's black hole). If it was just "the power/force" of it like how Galaxian Explosion gets described, the scene would make more sense to take as a power feat.
Shijima only describes the meaning of the word Ungyo, which is the same as Shun describes, the name of the technique in this case or the word he uses to activate this technique is something different than the effect this technique has. The name of the technique is Ungyo, which symbolizes the end of the universe, and the effect of this technique is to recreate or manifest the end of the universe to destroy them all.
there's no narrative consistency in anything written by Kurumada. The fact of the matter is, the techniques themselves being symbolic of these concepts has no impact on what actually happened when they clashed, not only is it a completely unprecedented event (two Virgo's who happen to be Buddha reincarnates who happen to know two diametrically opposed techniques), but the only one who could even conceptually be scaled to the feat would be Athena via Shijima saying her cosmo is the most powerful he's ever felt. It doesn't scale to the individual Saints given it was a consequence of their techniques and not inherently their cosmo.
you can't really claim Shijima and Shaka are the most powerful then claim it as an outlier, that doesn't really make sense. Even assuming they scale to the feat, it would just contradict the Gemini statements (which to be honest I'm not certain Gemini Saints are the strongest when Shaka has so many more statements of having the strongest cosmo). I think Gemini's being the strongest is just a reference to the galaxian explosion being the most destructive technique, no other Gold Saint has such a destructive technique, Aphrodite throws roses around and Camus generally just freezes stuff, those aren't destructive techniques for example.
Shijima seems to call the technique of Agyo itself as a symbolization or the creation of the universe.
And that description is plausible to be treated as symbolic based on all the context that indicates it.
Tenma states afterwards they were in another dimension, when they returned from the purple area, directly implying they weren't in the virgo temple.
Shun notes that Ugyo was being unleashed in the Virgo Temple, and we can even see the Light/Darkness energy of Agyo/Ugyo on the floor of the Virgo Temple under Tenma and Shun.
It is because the name is based on a Buddhist term, that' s why it describes what is the symbolism of that name, but one thing is the description of the name and another the effect of the technique, it is like the technique of Cancer that is based on an oriental term, even the Deathmask describes the meaning of that term, but the effect of the technique is described and shown later in the story. The name of the technique is one thing and the effect is another.
The naming scheme Agyo and Ugyo are the names of the Guardians of Buddha though, the symbolization description is in reference to that.
No, the effect of the technique is something that is described in the story by the characters, while the symbolism is only based on the name of the technique, which upon hearing the name the character relates it to a term in his universe. In this case the effect is something that is being described by the character in the story, like most of the techniques in this series whose effects are described by the character in turn.
A character in the story who doesn't have any sort of ability to observe it.
The birth of the universe described by Shun and by Shijima for Agyo and in the story directly is the Big Bang, and Shaka and Shijima would be having that power individually. Even the description mentions the universe being born.
The characters do not have a thermometer at hand to measure the temperature of an attack, but even so you can see several characters in multiple series describe the temperature of an attack, even though it is impossible for them to know that information. Although in this case it doesn't apply because the character was literally watching these two fight.
Shun only describes Shaka's attack as a great light, and it is only after this that Shijima says that this is the Angyo and explains the symbolism of this name. The description of the collision is the combined power of the two, so this is not their individual power and is basically the combined power of the two, that being two of the most powerful Gold Saints it does not sound illogical that they can produce a power equivalent to the big bang and cause the destruction and creation of the universe if they keep it up long enough.
I’m of the position the feat is a result of the clash of the techniques. Not that each technique is individually 3-A.
Oh lol. Yeah I think you might be right about the combined power part.
It's actually stated 3 times how it's a different time axis separately
Lapetos states that the "ultimate power" causes the infinite expansion of the universe, he then goes on to say that it is the source of the power of the gods and it was the cosmo entrusted to the gods who oversee destruction. This ultimate power is Dunamis, specifically Eschatos Dunamis. In other words, Dunamis isn't "related" to whatever expands the universe infinitely, it is the force responsible for it.
That may even be true, but what does it mean in a practical sense? Dunamis is still stated superior to Cosmo in destruction, and the events of GA/GR support this, having characters who have achieved the 9th Sense easily surpass those without it in both speed and power.
Depends on context but I think Okada typically uses the word to mean “timelines” at least halfway through GA he does, he uses “worlds” earlier on in the manga a fair bit from the translations I’ve read.
What is the standard usage in your opinion?
You don't think it has any other meaning? In just curious is all
Lost Canvas shows a reality-fiction difference with the use of "dimensions" as a word and in the same thing mentions a higher dimensional membrane of the universe when transcending space with time.
As already explained, it depends on the context, but it is typically used to describe other realities, for example other universes or realities such as the Underworld and the Yomotsu Hirakasa.
The concept of spatial dimensions or planes that transcend reality (space-time) has not been fully explored in this franchise, the only mentions or allusions to this concept are usually when talking about some topic related to the concept of enlightenment and are concepts that are related to enlightened beings, who have transcended reality (which is the cycle of reincarnation) and have reached planes beyond these as Nirvana, becoming beings that even seem to be able to move freely through space and time or dimensions. In fact, the only mentions of this are found in enlightened beings such as Ilias, Shaka or Buddha, etc.
I consider that more telepathy, considering Shunrei was thinking
