Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I'm aware, the idea was that (well at least per the standards of this time) Hades doesn't affect the dimension/space-time of the Underworld itself, if it exists in the past (since as noted in the tiering page, the destruction of a dimension is it being destroyed at every point in time).

This is curious, because the dimension disappeared completely when Hades died, so all space and time disappears at that moment, and about what we are seeing in the past as stated in the story exist on a different time axis, that is why even the destruction of the universe and the Sanctuary during that time does not seem to immediately affect the future, in the future the Sanctuary is in perfect condition and no planet is being destroyed. Also, if there is a Hades in the past, this means that his power is still holding his realm, so there is no way for him to be destroyed in the past when there is a version of Hades at that time.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

This is curious, because the dimension disappeared completely when Hades died, so all space and time disappears at that moment, as for the past, as indicated they exist on a different time axis, that is why even the destruction of the universe and the Sanctuary during that time does not seem to immediately affect the future, in the future the Sanctuary is in perfect condition and no planet is being destroyed.

Yeah, but even destroying an entire single moment wouldn't really cut it, since on this wiki it cites the entire past, present, future needing to be destroyed to qualify for dimensional/ space-time continuum destruction. The destruction of the universe not affecting the future probably just confirms the space-time distortions are only on the scale of destroying it in that respective moment, instead of the entirety of space-time which would make it just 3-A via some overtime chain reaction (for the record I don't agree with the standards on this forum either, I'd like to see it changed too).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

(for the record I don't agree with the standards on this forum either, I'd like to see it changed too).

It's very overly strict imo. It's expecting to much from authors

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Although I guess the future was affected in a way due to the dimensional distortions like Seiya appearing in Yomotsu Hirasaka, Aiolos' message, etc. But if the destruction of the universe itself only happens in the moment and destroys the future only via a chain reaction of the past being destroyed, IIRC it doesn't qualify for Low 2-C conventionally.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yeah, but even destroying an entire single moment wouldn't really cut it, since on this wiki it cites the entire past, present, future needing to be destroyed to qualify for dimensional/ space-time continuum destruction. The destruction of the universe not affecting the future probably just confirms the space-time distortions are only on the scale of destroying it in that respective moment, instead of the entirety of space-time which would make it just 3-A via some overtime chain reaction (for the record I don't agree with the standards on this forum either, I'd like to see it changed too).

Or it could also confirm that the past, present and future exist on their own time axis, and that destroying it is more complex in this universe, because each point of space and time is basically its own space and time, so affecting its entirety is much more complex, like what we saw in Power Rangers' Shattered Grid, where the Morphin Grid turned each point of space and time into its own space and time after Tommy's death.

Although I guess the future was affected in a way due to the dimensional distortions like Seiya appearing in Yomotsu Hirasaka, Aiolos' message, etc. But if the destruction of the universe itself only happens in the moment and destroys the future only via a chain reaction of the past being destroyed, IIRC it doesn't qualify for Low 2-C conventionally.

It is more likely that Shun traveled to the future at that time, as it happens later with Athena and Shijima, this is because the distortions in space and time affect the dimensional techniques. Aiolos' will appears in the past because Aiolos sent it to that place, even Hyoga mentions that it was Aiolos' soul that sent that message and we also saw how he deflected the arrow that was directed to Hyoga.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Or it could also confirm that the past, present and future exist on their own time axis, and that destroying it is more complex in this universe, because each point of space and time is basically its own space and time, so affecting its entirety is much more complex, like what we saw in Power Rangers' Shattered Grid, where the Morphin Grid turned each point of space and time into its own space and time after Tommy's death.

I think Asclepius' reference of different time axes was just intended to describe how somehow passes differently, if they were different space-times since then changing the future by changing the past wouldn't really be a thing.

But at the end of the day it's a writer who puts other logic defying nonsense like many times below Absolute Zero temperatures.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I think Asclepius' reference of different time axes was just intended to describe how somehow passes differently, if they were different space-times since then changing the future by changing the past wouldn't really be a thing.

But at the end of the day it's a writer who puts other logic defying nonsense like many times below Absolute Zero temperatures.

We do not yet know how time travel affects the future, although it apparently seems that both points of space and time coexist simultaneously, because even a day in the past is also happening in the future, and that is why Athena has a limit of three days to save Seiya's life. The manner in which time works in this series is quite strange, since changes in the past do not affect the future immediately, for example the appearance of Shun, Ikki, Shiryu and Hyoga have not caused any change in the future even though they directly intervene in the past, even the distortion in space and time seems to be created only by Saori's presence in the past, because the Pope, Odysseus and Suikyo never tried to kill the Bronze Saints and only wish to kill Saori to stop this, in fact Pope seems to indicate that only the power of a god like Athena (or the other Olympians) can influence the order of the universe.

Maybe in this series changing time is not something as simple as traveling to the past and altering something to create a butterfly effect, and it takes the power of a god to alter the future in some way. Also we still don't know how the alteration in time will be, if this will just magically heal Seiya in the future without any other change in this time or it will bring another change.

It's best to wait to see how this whole time travel plot is resolved in this series.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

In fact Pope seems to indicate that only the power of a god like Athena (or the other Olympians) can influence the order of the universe.

The interesting thing is in the japanese it even specifically uses 力 for the Pope's dialogue in that scene, which seems to indicate that he most likely meant it in the sense of raw power, and at that time he hadn't gotten all these details yet about time travelling and had only seen the alignment of the sky foreshadowing Asclepius' escape and he only speculated the universe would be affected allowing Asclepius to bail out of Tartarus from that information alone.

Basically this seems like a pretty huge narrative contradiction to individual Gold Saints as Low 2-C to me

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Basically this seems like a pretty huge narrative contradiction to individual Gold Saints as Low 2-C to me

To be honest this never made much sense to me, especially when most descriptions of Gold Saints' powers put them at star level or galaxy level at best.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

To be honest this never made much sense to me, especially when most descriptions of Gold Saints' powers put them at star level or galaxy level at best.

I completely agree, me too.

The closest possible argument was Shaka vs. Shijima to put the elite Gold Saints at universal, but honestly I always saw some contextual issues with that fight. like some translations indicating that Shun and Shijima describes Agyo and Ugyo as just symbolism/metaphorical for Samsara/the cycle of reincarnation (even the visual is pretty eyebrow raising showing lizards and crocodiles the size of galaxies) and the attacks besides that panel were only depicted as their cosmos in the form of light/dark energy , and I never really understood how Shun would be able to observe an entire universe being created and destroyed, if even the Pope needs to go to Star Hill just to observe the stars in the sky in detail.

I even asked Shady recently if he could review chapter 58 for me in regards to this topic, and he also confirmed it was just described as symbolism.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The closest possible argument was Shaka vs. Shijima to put the elite Gold Saints at universal, but honestly I always saw some contextual issues with that fight. like some translations indicating that Shun and Shijima describes Agyo and Ugyo as just symbolism/metaphorical for Samsara/the cycle of reincarnation (even the visual is pretty eyebrow raising showing lizards and crocodiles the size of galaxies) and the attacks besides that panel were only depicted as their cosmos in the form of light/dark energy , and I never really understood how Shun would be able to observe an entire universe being created and destroyed, if even the Pope needs to go to Star Hill just to observe the stars in the sky in detail.

I even asked Shady recently if he could review chapter 58 for me in regards to this topic, and he also confirmed it was just described as symbolism.

Here we enter two different points, first the name of the technique, which is Ungyo (which is the word with which Shijima activates this technique), as Shun describes it in the universe of this series the Ungyo represents/symbolizes the end of the universe, because Kurumada was based on the guardians Angyo and Ungyo that represent life and death, so the Ungyo is the end and the Angyo is the beginning. But there is something different between the name of the technique and the description of what is the effect of this technique, because the effect as Shun himself points out is to recreate the end of the universe in that place. So the technique is called Ungyo (or Shijima uses this word to activate this technique) and has the power to recreate the end of the universe where it is used, that's why Shijima unleashed this technique to destroy them all (Shun, Tenma and Shaka's soul) recreating the end of the universe (shown as the darkness that consumes everything).

As for Samsara, this occurs later and is a term Shun uses to describe the destruction being caused by the clash of these two techniques, which from his point of view are producing an effect where they are destroying and creating the universe countless times over. Also, as described, these techniques are affecting other dimensions, as Tenma describes the Angyo producing a sound coming from a distant dimension, and even Shun and Tenma ended up in a completely different dimension when they tried to intervene.

As for Star Hill, it is the highest point on Earth and in this place they can see the stars even during the day, something that does not happen when looking directly into cosmic space, because there is nothing to impede their visibility.

However, even if we were to take into account Shun's description of the clash of powers in that fight, this could easily be argued as an Outlier, because most descriptions of the characters' powers do not rise to that level.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Here we enter two different points, first the name of the technique, which is Ungyo (which is the word with which Shijima activates this technique), as Shun describes it in the universe of this series the Ungyo represents the end of the universe, because Kurumada was based on the guardians Angyo and Ungyo that represent life and death, so the Ungyo is the end and the Angyo is the beginning. But there is something different between the name of the technique and the description of what is the effect of this technique, because the effect as Shun himself points out is to recreate the end of the universe in that place. So the technique is called Ungyo (or Shijima uses this word to activate this technique) and has the power to recreate the end of the universe where it is used.

As for Samsara, this occurs later and is a term Shun uses to describe the destruction being caused by the clash of these two techniques, which from his point of view are producing an effect where they are destroying and creating the universe countless times over. Also, as described these techniques are affecting other dimensions, as Tenma describes the Angyo as a sound coming from a distant dimension, and even Shun and Tenma ended up in a completely different dimension when they tried to intervene.

As for Star Hill, it is the highest point on Earth and in this place they can see the stars even during the day, something that does not happen when looking directly into cosmic space, because there is nothing to impede their visibility.

However, even if we were to take into account Shun's description of the clash of powers in that fight, this could easily be argued as an Outlier, because most descriptions of the characters' powers do not rise to that level.

Shijima directly describes Shaka's Agyo itself's effect as symbolic though. Star Hill is used to view the sky at night too, the point is that is they don't have anywhere near the ability to perceive an entire universe.

Sure, it affected dimensions, but I just don't see how the universe part makes sense as being literal, with how the attacks are actually visually shown and Shun even saying that it was being recreated here (in the Virgo Temple) and I'd if think that part was intended to be literal, the main universe would be affected.

I agree with that, especially since the power of the creation of the universe is the level of the Athena Exclamation, and even if Shaka at that point was on a different level, Shijima as a standard Gold Saint had the technique that rivals the Agyo. Although honestly I think it's easier to just reconcile that part with it not being literal rather than an outlier, and like you said with how consistent Kurumada is with capping the stronger Golds at galaxy level and the narrative described in ND.

 

[Hasty12345]

The techniques themselves can be symbolic representations of Buddhist concepts, but that’s doesn’t mean the unprecedented clash of those techniques can’t result in an actual feat. Shun doesn’t say “it look like countless universes are being destroyed” he speaks as though what he’s seeing is real and there’s no actual foundation to claim what he saw wasn’t real.

my fist can be symbolic of bacon, but when I punch you it’s gonna hurt and your pain isn’t symbolic.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

The techniques themselves can be symbolic representations of Buddhist concepts, but that’s doesn’t mean the unprecedented clash of those techniques can’t result in an actual feat. Shun doesn’t say “it look like countless universes are being destroyed” he speaks as though what he’s seeing is real and there’s no actual foundation to claim what he saw wasn’t real.

my fist can be symbolic of bacon, but when I punch you it’s gonna hurt and your pain isn’t symbolic.

There's literally no narrative consistency to taking what he sees as literal though from what's seen, (I mean unless Shun can see entire galaxies and galactic sized lizards popping out of a galactic center's black hole). If it was just "the power/force" of it like how Galaxian Explosion gets described, the scene would make more sense to take as a power feat.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Shijima directly describes Shaka's Agyo itself's effect as symbolic though. Star Hill is used to view the sky at night too, the point is that is they don't have anywhere near the ability to perceive an entire universe.

Sure, it affected dimensions, but I just don't see how the universe part makes sense as being literal, with how the attacks are actually visually shown and Shun even saying that it was being recreated here (in the Virgo Temple) and I'd if think that part was intended to be literal, the main universe would be affected.

I agree with that, especially since the power of the creation of the universe is the level of the Athena Exclamation, and even if Shaka at that point was on a different level, Shijima as a standard Gold Saint had the technique that rivals the Agyo. Although honestly I think it's easier to just reconcile that part with it not being literal rather than an outlier, and like you said with how consistent Kurumada is with capping the stronger Golds at galaxy level and the narrative described in ND.

Shijima only describes the meaning of the word Ungyo, which is the same as Shun describes, the name of the technique in this case or the word he uses to activate this technique is something different than the effect this technique has. The name of the technique is Ungyo, which symbolizes the end of the universe, and the effect of this technique is to recreate or manifest the end of the universe to destroy them all.

Shun only says that the end of the universe was manifesting in that place, because Shijima was using this technique to recreate or manifest the end of the universe in that place to kill them all. The description of the clash is after this and it's something that Shun is describing at the time, and how we know these techniques are even affecting other dimensions. As for whether or not this clash should affect the universe, well at that moment they are inside the Virgo Temple that thanks to the barrier in this place that space was another dimension, even when Ikki and Odysseus try to leave that place they were sent to a different dimensional space.

A detail in this is that it is the combined power of two of the most powerful Gold Saints of their generation, the clash is not something produced by the power of one of them and is basically the combined power of the two. Although well from my point of view I only see this as a possible outlier within this series, because as you say most of the other descriptions of the power of the Gold Saints are less impressive.

 

[Hasty12345]

There's literally no narrative consistency to taking what he sees as literal though from what's seen, (I mean unless Shun can see entire galaxies and galactic sized lizards popping out of a galactic center's black hole). If it was just "the power/force" of it like how Galaxian Explosion gets described, the scene would make more sense to take as a power feat.

there's no narrative consistency in anything written by Kurumada. The fact of the matter is, the techniques themselves being symbolic of these concepts has no impact on what actually happened when they clashed, not only is it a completely unprecedented event (two Virgo's who happen to be Buddha reincarnates who happen to know two diametrically opposed techniques), but the only one who could even conceptually be scaled to the feat would be Athena via Shijima saying her cosmo is the most powerful he's ever felt. It doesn't scale to the individual Saints given it was a consequence of their techniques and not inherently their cosmo.

 

[Hasty12345]

A detail in this is that it is the combined power of two of the most powerful Gold Saints of their generation, the clash is not something produced by the power of one of them and is basically the combined power of the two. Although well from my point of view I only see this as a possible outlier within this series, because as you say most of the other descriptions of the power of the Gold Saints are less impressive.

you can't really claim Shijima and Shaka are the most powerful then claim it as an outlier, that doesn't really make sense. Even assuming they scale to the feat, it would just contradict the Gemini statements (which to be honest I'm not certain Gemini Saints are the strongest when Shaka has so many more statements of having the strongest cosmo). I think Gemini's being the strongest is just a reference to the galaxian explosion being the most destructive technique, no other Gold Saint has such a destructive technique, Aphrodite throws roses around and Camus generally just freezes stuff, those aren't destructive techniques for example.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Shijima only describes the meaning of the word Ungyo, which is the same as Shun describes, the name of the technique in this case or the word he uses to activate this technique is something different than the effect this technique has. The name of the technique is Ungyo, which symbolizes the end of the universe, and the effect of this technique is to recreate or manifest the end of the universe to destroy them all.

Shun only says that the end of the universe was manifesting in that place, because Shijima was using this technique to recreate or manifest the end of the universe in that place to kill them all. The description of the clash is after this and it's something that Shun is describing at the time, and how we know these techniques are even affecting other dimensions. As for whether or not this clash should affect the universe, well at that moment they are inside the Temple of Virgo that thanks to the barrier in this place that space was another dimension, even when Ikki and Odysseus try to leave that place they were sent to a different dimensional space.

A detail in this is that it is the combined power of two of the most powerful Gold Saints of their generation, the clash is not something produced by the power of one of them and is basically the combined power of the two. Although well from my point of view I only see this as a possible outlier within this series, because as you say most of the other descriptions of the power of the Gold Saints are less impressive.

Shijima seems to call the technique of Agyo itself as a symbolization or the creation of the universe.



Affecting dimensions is a far cry from creating/destroying a universe over and over again though. So then if Shijima put out Ungyo inside the Virgo Temple, do you not see the problem with treating this as a literal universe being destroyed and created many times?

there's no narrative consistency in anything written by Kurumada. The fact of the matter is, the techniques themselves being symbolic of these concepts has no impact on what actually happened when they clashed, not only is it a completely unprecedented event (two Virgo's who happen to be Buddha reincarnates who happen to know two diametrically opposed techniques), but the only one who could even conceptually be scaled to the feat would be Athena via Shijima saying her cosmo is the most powerful he's ever felt. It doesn't scale to the individual Saints given it was a consequence of their techniques and not inherently their cosmo.

And that description is plausible to be treated as symbolic based on all the context that indicates it.

The clash itself even taken literally isn't necessarily above their individual attacks, since in that case, pedantically it's just their individual attacks creating a Big Bang and whatever the end of the universe is inverse over and over again in a cycle of reincarnation.

But Shaka and especially Shijima individually having AE level power is ridiculously inconsistent, hence why I think it's best to entertain it being symbolism due to how consistent Kurumada stays with the descriptions of their power, but at worst it'd be an outlier regardless.

 

[Hasty12345]

Affecting dimensions is a far cry from creating/destroying a universe over and over again though. So then if Shijima put out Ungyo inside the Virgo Temple, do you not see the problem with treating this as a literal universe being destroyed and created many times?

Tenma states afterwards they were in another dimension, when they returned from the purple area, directly implying they weren't in the virgo temple.

And nothing else you're saying actually addresses my argument nor is it a fact that two techniques that represents Buddhist symbols cannot have a literal effect. Superman is a symbol for hope, I don't see all the people he's beat up laughing it off as symbolism.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Tenma states afterwards they were in another dimension, when they returned from the purple area, directly implying they weren't in the virgo temple.

And nothing else you're saying actually addresses my argument nor is it a fact that two techniques that represents Buddhist symbols cannot have a literal effect. Superman is a symbol for hope, I don't see all the people he's beat up laughing it off as symbolism.

Shun notes that Ugyo was being unleashed in the Virgo Temple, and we can even see the Light/Darkness energy of Agyo/Ugyo on the floor of the Virgo Temple under Tenma and Shun.

Unless you mean to say that the universe was created and destroyed in the space of another dimension, but that sounds like an even an less reliable interpretation, because Shun made that visual description while he was still in in the Virgo Temple and it was before him and Tenma jumped between Agyo/Ugyo and ended up in another dimension, and he would have had no way to see this phenomenon if it was that way.

The literal effect of Agyo/Ugyo is light/darkness energy cosmo attacks. Superman beating evil folks up isn't literally hope itself though, it represents that as a concept/idea.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Shijima seems to call the technique of Agyo itself as a symbolization or the creation of the universe.

Affecting dimensions is a far cry from creating/destroying a universe over and over again though. So then if Shijima put out Ungyo inside the Virgo Temple, do you not see the problem with treating this as a literal universe being destroyed and created many times?

And that description is plausible to be treated as symbolic based on all the context that indicates it.

The clash itself even taken literally isn't necessarily above their individual attacks, since in that case, pedantically it's just their individual attacks creating a Big Bang and whatever the end of the universe is inverse over and over again in a cycle of reincarnation.

But Shaka and especially Shijima individually having AE level power is ridiculously inconsistent, hence why I think it's best to entertain it being symbolism due to how consistent Kurumada stays with the descriptions of their power, but at worst it'd be an outlier regardless.

It is because the name is based on a Buddhist term, that' s why it describes what is the symbolism of that name, but one thing is the description of the name and another the effect of the technique, it is like the technique of Cancer that is based on an oriental term, even the Deathmask describes the meaning of that term, but the effect of the technique is described and shown later in the story. The name of the technique is one thing and the effect is another.

The fact is that these techniques are described as being able to affect even other dimensions, therefore they have a multidimensional reach, which validates the following description that this clash of powers was affecting another dimension or universe and destroying it countless times, after all it is something Shun is describing at the time. Even before Shun threw himself at Yin and Yan's sphere to stop them, we can see that the stars are reflected in it, indicating that it was showing cosmic space and other dimensions, after all that collision also affected time and space and sent Shun and Tenma to another dimension.

The feat we are discussing happens during the clash of techniques, not in the name of the techniques and their significance within this universe, in this case the clash is something produced by the power of the two Gold Saints, not the power of a separate one. It's not like Shaka and Shijima individually have that power and it's something that happens because of the combined power of the two.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

It is because the name is based on a Buddhist term, that' s why it describes what is the symbolism of that name, but one thing is the description of the name and another the effect of the technique, it is like the technique of Cancer that is based on an oriental term, even the Deathmask describes the meaning of that term, but the effect of the technique is described and shown later in the story. The name of the technique is one thing and the effect is another.

The fact is that these techniques are described as being able to affect even other dimensions, therefore they have a multidimensional reach, which validates the following description that this clash of powers was affecting another dimension or universe and destroying it countless times, after all it is something Shun is describing at the time. Even before Shun was thrown into the sphere of Yin and Yan we can see that stars are reflected in it, which indicates that it was showing cosmic space and other dimensions, after all that collision also affected time and space and sent Shun and Tenma to another dimension.

The feat we are discussing happens during the clash of techniques, not in the name of the techniques and their significance within this universe, in this case the clash is something produced by the power of the two Gold Saints, not the power of a separate one. It's not like Shaka and Shijima individually have that power and it's something that happens because of the combined power of the two.

The naming scheme Agyo and Ugyo are the names of the Guardians of Buddha though, the symbolization description is in reference to that.

I don't remember anytime it directly said that Agyo/Ugyo were affecting dimensions, the only mention of it really is Shun and Tenma being blown into another dimension by it, but honestly this is ambiguous and I don't think a phenomenon like Ikki's Final Explosion on Shaka blowing them into another dimension can be completely discounted. But as I said if the claim is the universe was destroyed and created in another dimension, that makes even less sense with the fact Shun could see it and observe it at all even besides him not having that range of vision, because how does Shun see and confirm something that happens in a completely different dimension.

The clash being a cycle of reincarnation of a universe being created and destroyed, so it basically does scale to them individually as Shaka having the power to literally create a literal Big Bang and Shijima the end of the universe, and I think we can both agree that this is not anything consistent in any way.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The naming scheme Agyo and Ugyo are the names of the Guardians of Buddha though, the symbolization description is the effect.

I don't remember anytime it directly said that Agyo/Ugyo were affecting dimensions, the only mention of it really is Shun and Tenma being blown into another dimension by it, but honestly this is ambiguous and I don't think a phenomenon like Ikki's Final Explosion on Shaka blowing them into another dimension can be completely discounted. But as I said if the claim is the universe was destroyed and created in another dimension, that makes even less sense with the fact Shun could see it and observe it at all even besides him having that range, because how does Shun see and confirm something that happens in a completely different dimension.

The clash being a cycle of reincarnation of a universe being created and destroyed, so it basically does scale to them individually as Shaka having the power to literally create a literal Big Bang and Shijima the end of the universe, and I think we can both agree that this is not anything consistent in any way.

No, the effect of the technique is something that is described in the story by the characters, while the symbolism is only based on the name of the technique, which upon hearing the name the character relates it to a term in his universe. In this case the effect is something that is being described by the character in the story, like most of the techniques in this series whose effects are described by the character in turn.

Literally, the Angyo is a sound that travels through dimensions, even from a distant dimension, which manifests the destruction of the universe in that place, and then they ended up in another dimension when they approached to stop the collision, in this case they were not even involved in a power explosion, just Shun and Tenma approached to break the balance, and that's why they ended up in another dimension. Basically the technique affects other dimensions, and we can even see the cosmic space around the Ying Yang sphere during that collision, which confirms that Shun at that moment could see the cosmic space through the collision of the techniques and the description he makes during that moment of what he is seeing.

Nowhere is it described that individually they have the power of the big bang, because we are not relying on the symbolism of the name of the techniques, but on the description of the effect of these techniques and the power they had during their collision, and the collision is basically the power of the two combined, which being two of the most powerful Gold Saints does not sound so illogical that they have a power equivalent to that.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

No, the effect of the technique is something that is described in the story by the characters, while the symbolism is only based on the name of the technique, which upon hearing the name the character relates it to a term in his universe. In this case the effect is something that is being described by the character in the story, like most of the techniques in this series whose effects are described by the character in turn.

A character in the story who doesn't have any sort of ability to observe it.

Literally, the Angyo is a sound that travels through dimensions, even from a distant dimension, which manifests the destruction of the universe in that place, and then they ended up in another dimension when they approached to stop the collision, in this case they were not even involved in a power explosion, just Shun and Tenma approached to break the balance, and that's why they ended up in another dimension. Basically the technique affects other dimensions, and we can even see the cosmic space around the Ying Yang sphere during that collision, which confirms that Shun at that moment could see the cosmic space through the collision of the techniques and the description he makes during that moment of what he is seeing.

The attack of Ugyo itself was released from Shijima's cosmos he had accumulated though.

And Shaka straight up says that Shun and Tenma were absorbed by the Agyo and Ugyo.


That starry space seems to just be the typical background Kurumda puts in these scenes or abilities, because said space would be a few meters across around the Yin/Yang in the Virgo Temple.

Nowhere is it described that individually they have the power of the big bang, because we are not relying on the symbolism of the name of the techniques, but on the description of the effect of these techniques and the power they had during their collision, and the collision is basically the power of the two combined, which being two of the most powerful Gold Saints does not sound so illogical that they have a power equivalent to that.

The birth of the universe described by Shun and by Shijima for Agyo and in the story directly is the Big Bang, and Shaka and Shijima would be having that power individually. Even the description mentions the universe being born.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

A character in the story who doesn't have any sort of ability to observe it.

The characters do not have a thermometer at hand to measure the temperature of an attack, but even so you can see several characters in multiple series describe the temperature of an attack, even though it is impossible for them to know that information. Although in this case it doesn't apply because the character was literally watching these two fight.

The attack of Ugyo itself was released from Shijima's cosmos he had accumulated though.

And Shaka straight up says that Shun and Tenma were absorbed by the Agyo and Ugyo.


That starry space seems to just be the typical background Kurumda puts in these scenes or abilities, because said space would be a few meters across around the Yin/Yang in the Virgo Temple.

Ungyo is basically a sound coming from another dimension, in this case a sound produced by the cosmos of Shijima that even crosses dimensions to manifest the end of the universe in that place.

They approached and sent them to another dimension, because Shun approached to break the balance and prevent them from continuing to fight forever, so they ended up involved in the distortion created by these two techniques, which sent them to another dimension.

In this case, it does not seem to be that, as Shun describes that he is seeing how another universe is being destroyed and recreated, so in this case the technique as a screen showing other dimensions, after all the distortion produced by this collision takes them to another dimension.

The birth of the universe described by Shun and by Shijima for Agyo and in the story directly is the Big Bang, and Shaka and Shijima would be having that power individually. Even the description mentions the universe being born.

Shun only describes Shaka's attack as a great light, and it is only after this that Shijima says that this is the Angyo and explains the symbolism of this name. The description of the collision is the combined power of the two, so this is not their individual power and is basically the combined power of the two, that being two of the most powerful Gold Saints it does not sound illogical that they can produce a power equivalent to the big bang and cause the destruction and creation of the universe if they keep it up long enough.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

@Lancelot_de_Cancer Maybe I'm missing the point of your post because it seems that despite saying it's literal, you don't seem to be saying that Agyo and Ugyo individually are universal?

So is the idea that Agyo and Ugyo aren't individually universal attacks (the main idea I unanimously have an issue with) and that only their combined power they don't scale to can create a universal cycle of reincarnation?

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with Lancelot here. I think attempts to claim it’s symbolic is mostly copium.

whilst I think the question as to who scales if any is an argument that needs to be had at some point, what Shun describes and what’s drawn on the panels are an actual countless times into 3-A feat IMO.

and given we see beings with infinite cosmo literally get glared away by deities, and Shijima states Athena’s cosmo is beyond what he’s ever seen, I think it’s fair to say top tier Olympians likely scale, but I’m not willing to debate that at this time, I have many other revisions planned for the verse. irl is very busy at the moment.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I think we completely misunderstood each other, or at least I definitely misunderstood one of the points, so basically is the idea that the descriptions of Agyo/Ugyo and the birth/death of the universe are indeed symbolic with no correlation to its power, but the effect mentioned isn't symbolic, but since it's their combined power it doesn't scale Shaka and Shijima to 3-A?

Because I was under the impression it was being argued that Agyo and Ugyo are individually literally 3-A universal, and honestly I thought taking the scene literally could only mean that, but I might've been wrong on that part from what you guys explain and completely glossed over how it seems their attacks combined to do this.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think we completely misunderstood each other, or at least I definitely misunderstood one of the points, so basically is the idea that the descriptions of Agyo/Ugyo and the birth/death of the universe are indeed symbolic with no correlation to its power, but the effect mentioned isn't symbolic, but since it's their combined power it doesn't scale Shaka and Shijima to 3-A?

Because I was under the impression it was being argued that Agyo and Ugyo are individually literally 3-A universal, and honestly I thought taking the scene literally could only mean that, but I might've been wrong on that part from what you guys explain and completely glossed over how it seems their attacks combined to do this.

I’m of the position the feat is a result of the clash of the techniques. Not that each technique is individually 3-A.

That’s why I said earlier the only way I can see someone scaling to it is Athena (and those who scale to her) via Shijima’s statement after the clash happened.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I’m of the position the feat is a result of the clash of the techniques. Not that each technique is individually 3-A.

Oh lol. Yeah I think you might be right about the combined power part.

I guess that's even supported by what was said right before it happened where whatever would happen attributed to if they clash. Honestly as I even mentioned the main reason I favored treating it as symbolism is because of how consistency and narrative breaking them being individually universal would be and Kurumada's consistency for it, but from this explanation I suppose there's no real issue in taking it literally (though in my defense it being symbolism or literal is most definitely not adequately portrayed).

 

[AlexZiggy]

The reason the Gold Saints are rated as Low 2-C is because of the feats of a few top tier ones (think Regulus, G Aiolos and Omega Seiya). Lousy is working on a canonicity blog so when that's done we can take a look at feats of each canon to work that out.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I think Asclepius' reference of different time axes was just intended to describe how somehow passes differently, if they were different space-times since then changing the future by changing the past wouldn't really be a thing.

But at the end of the day it's a writer who puts other logic defying nonsense like many times below Absolute Zero temperatures.

It's actually stated 3 times how it's a different time axis separately

 

[AlexZiggy]

The description is nothing more than a reference to the expansion of the universe (the universe where the story takes place) and how the deumanis is related to this force, which all the gods in this story can access, so it can be said that they access some part of the force that expands the universe, the same as living beings or Saints access some part of the force that created the universe, the big bang, which is what is called the cosmos.

Lapetos states that the "ultimate power" causes the infinite expansion of the universe, he then goes on to say that it is the source of the power of the gods and it was the cosmo entrusted to the gods who oversee destruction. This ultimate power is Dunamis, specifically Eschatos Dunamis. In other words, Dunamis isn't "related" to whatever expands the universe infinitely, it is the force responsible for it.

The way the deumanis work with the cosmos is different, as Pontos himself points out, the cosmos destroys matter by destroying the atoms, while the deumanis manipulate the atoms of this matter, so the type of destruction is different, being mainly a creative force, although they can still affect matter, as they can separate the atoms of something to cause damage, for example when Pontos separates Aiolia's arm in that scene.

That may even be true, but what does it mean in a practical sense? Dunamis is still stated superior to Cosmo in destruction, and the events of GA/GR support this, having characters who have achieved the 9th Sense easily surpass those without it in both speed and power.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@SSJGeminiJJ @Lancelot_de_Cancer

Question. What do you guys believe a "dimension" means/is in Saint Seiya?

 

[Hasty12345]

@SSJGeminiJJ @Lancelot_de_Cancer

Question. What do you guys believe a "dimension" means/is in Saint Seiya?

Depends on context but I think Okada typically uses the word to mean “timelines” at least halfway through GA he does, he uses “worlds” earlier on in the manga a fair bit from the translations I’ve read.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I don’t think it has any irregular or different meaning in story from the standard usage in general

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I don’t think it has any irregular or different meaning in story from the standard usage in general

What is the standard usage in your opinion?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Different dimension= different reality/space-time

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Different dimension= different reality/space-time

You don't think it has any other meaning? In just curious is all

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I guess spatial dimensions or whatever is a thing but I've never really read a story that I understood to use it in that sense