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BoS Seiya confirmed Massively FTL
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Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)
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Enhanced SensesTo some extent even something like sound seems to be capable of crossing light years and dimensions in Kurumada's work somehow
-The sound of the resonating Gold Cloths reaching Elysion from Hell
-Seiya and Seika yells reaching other
-Shunrei praying for Shiryu reaching Yomotsu and Deathmask actually hearing it somehow
It's just not as elaborated on as Supermans hearing
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@SSJGeminiJJ @Lancelot_de_Cancer Do you believe that Cosmo between each work in the franchise is portrayed differently?
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If they're intended to be different universes in the same continuity, then logically no, it shouldn't be different.
Whether it actually is or isn't is another point though, and the 8th sense comes to mind.
Whether it actually is or isn't is another point though, and the 8th sense comes to mind.
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As I said I think it should be treated as the same besides for abilities that are demonstrably different like the 8th sense, which is the only major consistent example I can think of.
Actually, there's something like Genromaoken too. Or the God Cloths in GA being different. Lost Canvas kinda ****** up with the Specters too, but perhaps that could be reconciled with timeline differences like the Pisces Saints and their poison.
Actually, there's something like Genromaoken too. Or the God Cloths in GA being different. Lost Canvas kinda ****** up with the Specters too, but perhaps that could be reconciled with timeline differences like the Pisces Saints and their poison.
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What are the issues with the 8th sense in your opinion?
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Kuramada's work treats the 8th sense as giving the ability to regenerate their bodies and literally resurrect when they have a purpose to fight for, something not there in TLC for example.
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im removing regeneration completely in the future. I don't see any regeneration in the classic for 8th sense users or gods tbh. 8th sense was based off the buddhist concept which has nothing to do with regenration and more about a state of transcendence over causality and samsara (duality, Life and death, states of nothingness)
Seiya, the bronze boys, Dohko, Kanon, mu, aiolia, milo went to the UW with their physical bodies. Regeneration was never shown for them.
Shaka was reduced to a Soul after the AE clash symbolizing his transcendence over the laws of death (Type 5 Immortality) because normal souls by the laws of the Universe (or maybe Hades) are forced into the UW with their minds wipes and controlled. That didn't happen to Shaka. He lost his body and never regenerated one, and saying he is "Alive" part of the paradox os the 8th sense. he is both alive and dead and neither alive or dead. He can be neither, or either or. Hes alive in the sense that he has control over his soul where the universal laws ahs no bearing on him, but he has no physical body even in the UW. hes just a mere soul there.
Edit: They even went as far as showing he was reduced to a soul with Shuras hand passing through him. thats not something that should happen to a physical body.
Edit: you can argue Athena showed regeneration but scaling her to humans is a no-no because she isn't "human" she claims to be one but shes still a God in the end.
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The problem is that the Bronze Saints only awakened the 8th sense for a single instant with a miracle to survive the descent into Hell, how Dohko and Kanon did it is completely offscreen (although we can reason it was the same as Athena and Shaka since it wasn't a one time thing for them like the Bronze Saints), and Mu Aiolia Milo never awakened the 8th sense at that time because they were just thrown into the Underworld pit by Rhadmanthys and killed by the descent, but it seems like they did after dying at the Wailing Wall since we see them have it in Next Dimension.
The problem with the "alive soul" idea is that at the Wailing Wall, we literally see on panel and are told word for word that Saga, Aiolos, Deathmask, Aphrodite, Camus, Shura, and Aldeberan resurrected back to life in that moment to don their Gold Cloths and destroy the Wailing Wall, and we can even see how they have physical bodies that don their Cloths.
Athena is a good comparison, because as Saori at that time she did not have any super special ability to revive or super regeneration to do it from a fatal wound like slitting her throat and losing a profound amount of blood that she did, even Saga after seeing it when being honest with Pandora tells her to use her head and consider that Saori has a human body.
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Nah the 8th sense must always be active because of the laws hades set in the UW. Also Shaka had it awakened since the age of 6, its just that he surpressed it. I will agree that the 7th and 8th sense are "Toggable" states that must be activated or they are "passive" but its in character to "surpress" them.
Dohko had knolwedge on it but kanon is completely unknown.
they weren't killed by the descent they were defeated off screen and thrown into Cocytus
Prove that their physical bodies please. Also it was Athena's Cosmo that Ressurrected them which is stated iirc. That isn't the same
Shaka still had his cloth even as a Soul.
Edit 3: Heres an image that directly says its just their souls, and it even says their already dead.
Edit 4: Athenas Cosmo revived Mu, Aiolia, and Milo. i went back and looked. the other gold saints aside from Kanon, Shaka, and Dohko looks like P.I.S to me
Edit #999999: heres a few more images that says they are only souls, and that they are already dead.
Athena is a Goddess. she can't be compared too in terms of hax and abilities. She had super special abilities as far back as Silver Saint Arc.
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Okay i think im done editing my comment now. i need to do some stuff around the house
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It's only mentioned that the 8th sense is needed to survive the transition between those worlds. Rhadamanthys even explained to Kanon how Hades had no real defenses or barriers set up in Hell because they deemed it unnecessary due to this.
Dohko and the Bronze Saints literally confirm in that scene it was just a miracle and they only awakened it for a moment to survive the descent.
That scene is before they reached the Wailing Wall, when they reached is there is when they regenerated their bodies as its seen. Also I don't think that's even actually referring to their literal souls, because their actual souls go to the Underworld upon death and soul is often used loosely and metaphorically in these contexts.
It was their physical bodies because you can literally see that it is and the observing crowd outright says they've resurrected/returned to life.
甦 in Saint Seiya has always described being resurrected/coming back to life.
As for that part, they probably just mean it in the past tense since they did die before, for example in Next Dimension it's reiterated how Saori killed herself to reach the Underworld but she's alive now.
She has no special ability to regenerate fatal woulds so immediately, none of the gods do in Kurumada's work, Saga even points it out to Pandora how her form is just human.
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i probably won't hav etime ro respond in detail to this for a bitIt's only mentioned that the 8th sense is needed to survive the transition between those worlds. Rhadamanthys even explained to Kanon how Hades had no real defenses or barriers set up in Hell because they deemed it unnecessary due to this.
Dohko and the Bronze Saints literally confirm in that scene it was just a miracle and they only awakened it for a moment to survive the descent.
That scene is before they reached the Wailing Wall, when they reached is there is when they regenerated their bodies as its seen. Also I don't think that's even actually referring to their literal souls, because their actual souls go to the Underworld upon death and soul is often used loosely and metaphorically in these contexts.
It was their physical bodies because you can literally see that it is and the observing crowd outright says they've resurrected/returned to life.
甦 in Saint Seiya has always described being resurrected/coming back to life.
As for that part, they probably just mean it in the past tense since they did die before, for example in Next Dimension it's reiterated how Saori killed herself to reach the Underworld but she's alive now.
She has no special ability to regenerate fatal woulds so immediately, none of the gods do in Kurumada's work, Saga even points it out to Pandora how her form is just human.
but 2 questions
1.) okay so assume they do have "regen." Why don't they regen in ND? Shaka made an appearence albeit in a very special way. iirc even Aiolos had some level of influence. So why don't they come back with a full body to help the Bronzies?
2.) very off topic, but did cronos make saga evil in G?
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Cronos didn't make Saga evil, its just Saga being his bipolar self.
It's not really an assumption, it's stated on panel that they resurrected and came back to life, as the wording 甦 indicates.
To elaborate on this with some examples:
Mu outright says Aphrodite and Deathmask who have 甦 resurrected;come back to life are NOT ghosts/souls as per this.
Even moments earlier in the scene where Athena's cosmo revived Aiolia, Mu, and Milo, it Kurumada puts the exact same wording.
As we can see, these references make it clear that they are capable of resurrecting themselves and regenerating their bodies via the 8th sense, and these descriptions would be completely redundant and nonsensical if they were only existing as dead souls, because that doesn't line up with the established concept in Kurumada's story of being a soul/ghost=dead and being alive is only considered for those with living bodies as shown.
There're probably many more examples to reference, but I'm just going off memory of the anime's dialogue and the subtitles so.
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Why won't they resurrect in ND. Shaka and Aiolos shown their still around but without a bodyCronos didn't make Saga evil, its just Saga being his bipolar self.
It's not really an assumption, it's stated on panel that they resurrected and came back to life, as the wording 甦 indicates.
To elaborate on this with some examples:
Mu outright says Aphrodite and Deathmask who have 甦 resurrected;come back to life are NOT ghosts/souls as per this.
Even moments earlier in the scene where Athena's cosmo revived Aiolia, Mu, and Milo, it Kurumada puts the exact same wording.
As we can see, these references make it clear that they are capable of resurrecting themselves and regenerating their bodies via the 8th sense, and these descriptions would be completely redundant and nonsensical if they were only existing as dead souls, because that doesn't line up with the established concept in Kurumada's story of being a soul/ghost=dead and being alive is only considered for those with living bodies as shown.
There're probably many more examples to reference, but I'm just going off memory of the anime's dialogue and the subtitles so.
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Because they simply haven't seen the reason to or decided to? The Gold Saints having silly reasoning limiting their involvement in critical situations is nothing new in this story, this is literally Kurumada we're talking about here. We could be here all day if we wanted to talk about the shitty lazy writing riddled with PIS/CIS in Saint Seiya, but it doesn't invalidate what they could've been capable of in those scenes.
At any rate them showing the ability to regenerate their bodies after attaining the 8th sense is undisputed, so that's really all that can be to it.
At any rate them showing the ability to regenerate their bodies after attaining the 8th sense is undisputed, so that's really all that can be to it.
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Like you could ask this question of why the 20th Century Gold Saints didn't get involved earlier and in more situations besides Hyoga vs. Gestalt and Athena and Shijima and just cleaned up the circus show that's Next Dimension's story no matter what we think of the 8th sense's ability for it's entire story.
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I'd like to argue that the Legendary Bronze Saints should all have Existence Erasure Resistence in G Assassins/G Requiem since:
Seiya is constantly resisting Hades Sword, and Hades sword helped him resist Uranos' erasure since he can't fall into the Underworld until it kills him.
Ikki resisted Uranos' erasure.
and recently
Shiryu was stated to resist Uranos' erasure and had to be sealed away, with the implication this goes for all of the Legendary Bronze Saints.
This would mean The Legendary Bronze saints have at least one layer of protection from EE, and Seiya has two (His natural resistance and the added resistance of the Sword's curse.
Seiya is constantly resisting Hades Sword, and Hades sword helped him resist Uranos' erasure since he can't fall into the Underworld until it kills him.
Ikki resisted Uranos' erasure.
and recently
Shiryu was stated to resist Uranos' erasure and had to be sealed away, with the implication this goes for all of the Legendary Bronze Saints.
This would mean The Legendary Bronze saints have at least one layer of protection from EE, and Seiya has two (His natural resistance and the added resistance of the Sword's curse.
Hasty12345
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once the timeline split happens, the G Bronzes will likely get their own profiles
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Pretty straightforward, I agree.
We need to get proper G profiles for them though as Hasty mentioned.
Hasty12345
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I did mention
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My goal is to have the canoncity blog done in December and post it next year when the holiday seasons over. Might have to post it in the summer incase there's staff and knowledgeable who have school and exams and stuff. I dunno yet. I want to have it ready by December though
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They are specters at this point which are physical entities. Their not a good example of what you want because at this point they were given a new body by hades, and resurrected by hades (or should i say Key maybe? anyways) that wasn't done with their own power or even done by the 8th sense. its not something that can be scaled to 8th sense users due to circumstances. i am bolding this so its easier to find and readCronos didn't make Saga evil, its just Saga being his bipolar self.
It's not really an assumption, it's stated on panel that they resurrected and came back to life, as the wording 甦 indicates.
To elaborate on this with some examples:
Mu outright says Aphrodite and Deathmask who have 甦 resurrected;come back to life are NOT ghosts/souls as per this.
Aiolia, Mu, and Miolo are bad examples they awakened the 8th sense off screen, and were defeated off screen and throwing into cocytus offscreen with their physical bodies. They were more like "ko'ed" and "awaiting eventual death."Even moments earlier in the scene where Athena's cosmo revived Aiolia, Mu, and Milo, it Kurumada puts the exact same wording.
As we can see, these references make it clear that they are capable of resurrecting themselves and regenerating their bodies via the 8th sense, and these descriptions would be completely redundant and nonsensical if they were only existing as dead souls, because that doesn't line up with the established concept in Kurumada's story of being a soul/ghost=dead and being alive is only considered for those with living bodies as shown.
There're probably many more examples to reference, but I'm just going off memory of the anime's dialogue and the subtitles so.
as noted by this specter he they were sent there alive
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That wasn't the point to say that Mu/Aiolia/Milo or the Specter Gold Saints used the 8th sense, it was just to show how it's clearly stated in that scene that they resurrected and what resurrection means in this story, which Mu literally says is NOT existing as a soul.
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Lets assume they do have regen. its not pis or cis, but retconned in Next Dimension. by definition that would be new information that overwrites a decades old concept therefore invalidating the older concept and overwriting the old information with a new thus making it a retcon instead of PIS, or CIS. Also it can't be both it has to be one or the other.
you missed my point. Mu. Aiolia, and Milo are 8th sense users. They were thrown into Cocytus offscreen. They were stated to be thrown into it Alive. Therefore they never created a new body. You even seen on screen Rhada tossing their physical bodies into the Underworld Pit because hades castle was on Earth at this point. So they never created a new body their old bodies were already there in cocytus. And your kanji was for a scene about Mu, Aiolia, and Milo. You would have a point it was Aiolios, Saga, Camus, Shaka, Shura, Aldy, Deathmask, Shion or Aphrodite. But it wasn't them it was the 3 whom already had their bodies in the Underworld but they were defeated off screen at some point after being in Hades Underworld with their bodies. So your argument falls flat because of the characters its referencing.
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I was going to edit my above comment but i think responding to your comment will be good too
Edit: I'll be slow to respond due to IRL issues
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Unless it's factually shown or stated with no other possible explanation there's no reason to say it's a retcon.
The point wasn't if they created a body, I posted that scene to show how Kurumada was using that word to indicate being actually brought back to life even moments before and that this is something consistent in the story and language.
In short, at the Wailing Wall scene the wording used is the same wording used to describe Specter Gold Saints or Mu/Milo/Aiolia revived by Athena, and Mu's dialogue explicitly confirms that being resurrected indicates existing literally physically alive and not as a soul (as you say is supposedly the ability of the 8th sense).
Hasty12345
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The same word can mean different things in different contexts, and the contexts are different.
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What else is resurrected supposed to mean?
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Thats not how it works on this site. Thats literally using bias, and ignoring a clear anti-feat for a very powerful ability by tossing it up as PIS or CIS (can't even pick one or the other)
Also why hasn't Aiolios regenerate a new body at all all series? His soul was lingering around for a while
I just checked the kanji for that scene. you misinterpreted it. its actually two kanjis together not one.
The kanji is "蘇る" its alternative form is 甦る. Which can, additionally mean, "brought back" or "have returned."
Also the UW is a plane of existence for souls. if you thought the laws of the UW can only affect those going to it and aren't affected once in it. Then that entire scene, and plot around the wailing wall, is clearly Plot Induced Stupidity. DM, Aphrodite, Saga, Shura, and Camus were already specters and their souls should have been sealed away and long brain dead without a consciousness after their traitorous attempt and after they got dusted.
and for Aiolios is very much Character induced studity if he could have just regenated a new body the whole time but chose to wait until that moment. because only Shaka, Mu, Dohko, Aiolia, and Milo along with the Bronzies should be the only ones there not the others. They literally had no explanation for being there and Saga, DM, Aphrodite, saga, Camus, and shura sure as hell shouldn't have bene able to do anything.
Also not just Aiolos here. Camus soul was still around. he sent his cloth out to help the other bronzies. Breaking a rule that "Alive" ones can't help during the poseidon arc.
but in destiny, or zero whatever one has Ker. Shows that Camus was in fact in the UW sealed away until he was awakened by Ker.
after this discussion im starting to think the whole wailing wall scene is just PIS and shouldn't be scaled too at all or used anywhere.
Something doesn't seem right here.
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im done editing my comment i got stuff i need to do
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How is it an anti-feat, they never failed to do it when they needed to and their lack of involvement is clearly due to motive and admission.
Rhadamanathys literally directly explains otherwise to Kanon, and Dohko continually notes surviving the descent into Hell as the hurdle in that scene, and thinks they would make it if they awakened that sense even for just a single moment with a miracle (which is what happened). They need the 8th sense to survive going to the Underworld, not survive being in there.
The main word itself is just 蘇 or 甦, and Kurumada puts it as 甦っ usually like i the pages I posted.
Kurumada constantly uses it in the sense of revival and resurrection that's why I posted all those scenes, and taking it as vaguely meaning returned doesn't even make sense in the context of the Wailing Wall because they weren't just returning to the Underworld (already would've been there as dead souls) or the Wailing Wall (someplace they were never shown at before).
It seems that there's a difference in the story between their literal souls and their cosmos and essence metaphorically being called their souls, because even in the typical situation for dead Gold Saints their souls go to the Underworld.
The only PIS could be the timing of when the rest of them awakened the 8th sense and when they decided to step in. The 8th sense's ability itself isn't PIS.
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Please show me a statement where their lack of involvement is stated to be a motive.
however you have to enter the Underworld Alive as stated and explained by Dohko. They were already dead at the start of the arc
And saying the ressurected doesn't match your examples. infact even other translations say "They returned" instead of "They resurrected"
Under the control of Hades liek ever other soul there becuase they never awakened the 8th sense during, or before their deaths. Kurumada also clearly laid out in an interview that when he created shaka he already had the plot of the hades arc in mind. So they clearly didn't have the 8th sense before, or during their deaths. So there is logical reasoning or explanation on them being able to have it.
what proof is there that it is there essence? Maybe the japanese kanji can shed light on it.
Wow there are we picking what we want to be PIS now?
"Plot-Induced Stupidity, or PIS for short, is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot. For example, if a generally competent, intelligent villain does something stupid like not killing the hero immediately when he has the chance, and that allows the hero to win, that would be an example of PIS"
"Plot-Induced Stupidity, or PIS for short, is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot. For example, if aiolos could revive his body, whenever he wanted too as he shown in the wailing wall scene, and that allows the heroes to win, that would be an example of PIS"
This extends to NDs plot too.
It appears the wiki doesn't have a retcon page. honestly they should make one.
Hasty12345
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蘇る: to be resurrected; to be resuscitated; to be rehabilitated; to be revived; to be refreshed; to be restored
The kanji has 6 different meanings
The kanji has 6 different meanings
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That's the most reasonable conclusion based on their selective involvement and the fact they never needed to recreate their body yet.
If it was that simple, why would he be worried about Seiya needing to awaken the 8th sense to survive the descent, when he went into the pit alive.
It does match the examples, because like the Specter Gold Saints or Mu/Aiolia/Milo, they resurrected with bodies in that scene.
Saying they returned is not opposed to resurrection, it's just a more ambiguous way of saying it. From the context alone one can refer there's no other reasonable meaning.
Speaking of other prominent translations, if you want to reference that.
It was never said that they didn't awaken the 8th sense.
It's their cosmos or essence whatever you wanna call it, because their actual souls are often said to go to the Underworld like anyone else.
Then maybe it'd be Character Induced Stupidity or whatever, I don't know these terms that well. The point is that it's their characters holding it back, not the lack of the ability to do so.
In ND Aiolos simply didn't need to regenerate his body.
Kurumada always uses it as resurrected and the context of that scene is in line with that.
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I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this.That's the most reasonable conclusion based on their selective involvement and the fact they never needed to recreate their body yet.
If it was that simple, why would he be worried about Seiya needing to awaken the 8th sense to survive the descent, when he went into the pit alive.
It does match the examples, because like the Specter Gold Saints or Mu/Aiolia/Milo, they resurrected with bodies in that scene.
Saying they returned is not opposed to resurrection, it's just a more ambiguous way of saying it. From the context alone one can refer there's no other reasonable meaning.
Speaking of other prominent translations, if you want to reference that.
It was never said that they didn't awaken the 8th sense.
It's their cosmos or essence whatever you wanna call it, because their actual souls are often said to go to the Underworld like anyone else.
Then maybe it'd be Character Induced Stupidity or whatever, I don't know these terms that well. The point is that it's their characters holding it back, not the lack of the ability to do so.
In ND Aiolos simply didn't need to regenerate his body.
Kurumada always uses it as resurrected and the context of that scene is in line with that.
Well have to agree to disagree
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So, can someone explain this to me?
The term 正統 in Japanese means "Legitimate" and is used to show a story is canon/takes place in the same universe. For example, in Dragon Ball Super, the manga is stated to be 正統続編 (Legitimate/orthodox Sequel) to show its canon. Same with The Seven Deadly Sins: Four Knights of the Apocalypse, which was described the same way. Even Kamen Rider W: Fuuto PI is described as 正統 to note it's canon to the original live-action show. Worst Gaiden Skull is stated to be 正統外伝 (legitimate gaiden) to show it's canon to the Crows/Worst universe. Andro Melos is stated to be a 正統外伝 (legitimate gaiden) to the Ultraman's main universe. Each use of this word is the same as the English word canon/canonical
Next Dimension, Episode G and Episode G Assassin are all stated to be 正統. In vol 1 of Next Dimension, it's stated "の正統なる続編が始動!" (The legitimate sequel of Saint Seiya is about to begin)
In Episode G and Episode G: Assassin, they're stated の正統外伝 ("Saint Seiya" dominates the world with a new legitimate gaiden!)
By comparison, Lost Canvas is never described as 正統, just 外伝 (Gaiden or side story/another story). Gigantomachia
So why don't we accept G as canon, besides "it wasn't written by Kuromada" which, seeing the other examples means not that much, and the supporting evidence of how the word is used means it should be considered canon?
The term 正統 in Japanese means "Legitimate" and is used to show a story is canon/takes place in the same universe. For example, in Dragon Ball Super, the manga is stated to be 正統続編 (Legitimate/orthodox Sequel) to show its canon. Same with The Seven Deadly Sins: Four Knights of the Apocalypse, which was described the same way. Even Kamen Rider W: Fuuto PI is described as 正統 to note it's canon to the original live-action show. Worst Gaiden Skull is stated to be 正統外伝 (legitimate gaiden) to show it's canon to the Crows/Worst universe. Andro Melos is stated to be a 正統外伝 (legitimate gaiden) to the Ultraman's main universe. Each use of this word is the same as the English word canon/canonical
Next Dimension, Episode G and Episode G Assassin are all stated to be 正統. In vol 1 of Next Dimension, it's stated "の正統なる続編が始動!" (The legitimate sequel of Saint Seiya is about to begin)
In Episode G and Episode G: Assassin, they're stated の正統外伝 ("Saint Seiya" dominates the world with a new legitimate gaiden!)
By comparison, Lost Canvas is never described as 正統, just 外伝 (Gaiden or side story/another story). Gigantomachia
So why don't we accept G as canon, besides "it wasn't written by Kuromada" which, seeing the other examples means not that much, and the supporting evidence of how the word is used means it should be considered canon?
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AFAIK, the reasons come down to specific differences between timelines l, which doesn't mean they are different canons altogether. That said, Lousy is working on a canonicity blog where we can hopefully reach some sort of consensus on the matter.
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Theres also a kanji that means "Legitimate Author/Storywriter." For exmaple, J. K. Rowling is the legitmate Author and story writer for Harry potter. So "That kanji" would be used for J. K. Rowling. It is the only Kanji used to denote who the Legimate Author/Story Writer is and there isn't another Kanji to use. Its also the "Correct" and "Proper" Kanji to use to say someone is the legitmate author and storywriter.
and that Kanji is used to say "Kurumada" was the legitimate Author/Story Writer for all the spin offs (except the new ones because there is no updated available information except for TO which has author statements of Kurumadas involvement)
I asked native japanese speakers for more clarity on that Kanji and they confirmed what i saw, and read about it. Kurumada was being labeled the legitmate Author/Storywriter with the use of that kanji by an official source that is owned by Kuruamada, and the others are being labeled as "Artist" or "Manga/comic artist"
More on that will be coming in my canoncity blog.
