Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[StekFence]

I don't remember any cross-universal descriptions. Well, crossing space-time is obviously just a reference or description of the context we know of her traveling to the past in the space-time continuum, it's obviously not a different timeline or universe, if the entire goal is to go to the past and change the future.

I assume you're referring to Shijima/Ox/Izo's conversation that they said she came from a different dimension., that's something of a mistranslation in the english version.

時空の彼方= far across/furthest reaches of space-time. This is consistent with the statements of her crossing space-time in reference to the time travel.

I'm not really sure what a dimension from Shaka vs. Shijima or Agyo vs. Ugyo really adds to this topic.

Well, the universe Shiryu fell into was never described as part of the 大宇宙.

Shady's comments were only a few months ago, but any rate if we want to examine more recent chapters, I decided to cross reference some english scans with the raw:

So Asclepius confirms that the distortions in space-time caused by Athena time traveling affects the 大宇宙 (Great Universe) and this is even conflated directly as 全宇宙 (entire universe) in the same chapter, and contextually since it was mentioned for this event we can further confirm it just refers to their universe, because as we saw the universe Shiryu went to was completely unaffected by all this.

So it definitely seems the most likely that 大宇宙 only describes the universe, and Chronos' body/lake only contains the universe and the information on his page and his tier as 2-A is a mistake.

This is true, but in critical situations like Suikyo was in they can still put out their max/high power (like how the Specter Trio even after using an AE were able to use another one at its full power).

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Saga couldn't even clown Shaka on his own

Only because of a hax ability. If even Kanon who has that feat confirmed Rhadamanthys was a fraud who wouldn't have even beat Aiolia or Milo if it wasn't for Hades barrier, Saga would absolutely body that guy.

That was an assessment from his Byakurenge. When he started charging up his ultimate Hyakugasenran Dohko was ******** himself, and Suikyo even called that attack his maximum technique.

 

[Hasty12345]

Only because of a hax ability

hax and power

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

hax and power

Power how, if he got blood drawn by unnamed casual attacks and he did no other notable damage in comparison, but on the other hand got completely blitzed by Diamond Dust and Another Dimension. Even Shaka thought to himself how he'll certainly die fighting them before the AE was even in consideration, and keep in mind at that point they were only attacking him individually.

In power Saga>=Kanon>>>Shaka/Aiolia/Milo>Rhadamanthys and Kanon has no feats to confirm him ever surpassing Saga.

 

[StekFence]

That was an assessment from his Byakurenge.

I’m saying there is a clear decrease in power, because the last gold cloth he tried it on, he pierced like paper, and this time, he couldn’t even scratch it. So it would make sense Dohko is performing better in this fight then the other golds.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I’m saying there is a clear decrease in power, because the last gold cloth he tried it on, he pierced like paper, and this time, he couldn’t even scratch it. So it would make sense Dohko is performing better in this fight then the other golds.

That’s true for his Byakurenge at the time, but the Hyakugasenran was that powerful and was shattering the Libra Cloth and Shield, which makes sense for being his ultimate maximum attack (it’s true he was fatigued, but in critical situations they can put out that power).

 

[AlexZiggy]

G Cronus remains 2-A for enveloping a 2-A cosmology

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Infinite Universes! https://imgur.com/a/TqOZIR5
G Cronus remains 2-A for enveloping a 2-A cosmology

thers like 3 statements of infinite universes lol

The Original G has multiple Infinite Possibilities statements

 

[Xxiaa]

thers like 3 statements of infinite universes lol

The Original G has multiple Infinite Possibilities statements

Links not working

 

[AlexZiggy]

Links not working

Fixed

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

G Cronus remains 2-A for enveloping a 2-A cosmology

But he never affected the cosmology in any way, and even then that power itself was only a time hax/warp caused by a chain reaction of destroying his Hourglass, so it's not really an AP feat or even environmental destruction since he was only messing up the time of Earth to cause humanity to be wiped out, and wasn't even destroying the planet Earth itself.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

That was an assessment from his Byakurenge. When he started charging up his ultimate Hyakugasenran Dohko was ******** himself, and Suikyo even called that attack his maximum technique.

It is his ultimate technique, but that does not change that Suikyo was weakened by the injuries he suffered in his previous fights, as Dohko himself points out at the time, that is why Dohko, who is just as powerful as Shion, was able to fight him, when in normal conditions Suikyo would have defeated him just as easily as Shion.

That’s true for his Byakurenge at the time, but the Hyakugasenran was that powerful and was shattering the Libra Cloth and Shield, which makes sense for being his ultimate maximum attack (it’s true he was fatigued, but in critical situations they can put out that power).

The fact that Suikyo (the most powerful Underworld leader that exists in this universe) can destroy a Gold Cloth with his ultimate technique, even being weakened, only indicates how awesome his power is, which is why even Ikki points out how awesome Suikyo's power is. That only applies to the protagonists, something that probably happens thanks to the Cloths, which is the justification Kurumada mentions about the protagonists sometimes exceeding their limits in some combat, because these armors can grant a temporary power boost if the Saint fights for justice and Athena.

But he never affected the cosmology in any way, and even then that power itself was only a time hax/warp caused by a chain reaction of destroying his Hourglass, so it's not really an AP feat or even environmental destruction since he was only messing up the time of Earth to cause humanity to be wiped out, and wasn't even destroying the planet Earth itself.

Yes, basically this is not even a 2-C or 3-A feat and is a simple life wiper, so it is impossible to use it as a cosmic scale feat or at that level.

So it definitely seems the most likely that 大宇宙 only describes the universe, and Chronos' body/lake only contains the universe and the information on his page and his tier as 2-A is a mistake.

Chronos does not even contain a universe, it is only a portal to travel to other times (it's basically a lake on Olympus), so it is a mistake the scale of power of this character.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

That only applies to the protagonists, something that probably happens thanks to the Cloths, which is the justification Kurumada mentions about the protagonists sometimes exceeding their limits in some combat, because these armors can grant a temporary power boost if the Saint fights for justice and Athena.

Honestly yeah, I guess I was wrong earlier, I completely forgot this part, I remember this was even mentioned by Odysseus for why Tenma completely blitzed him that one time.

Yes, basically this is not even a 2-C or 3-A feat and is a simple life wiper, so it is impossible to use it as a cosmic scale feat or at that level.

Chronos does not even contain a universe, it is only a portal to travel to other times (it's basically a lake on Olympus), so it is a mistake the scale of power of this character.

Completely agreed on part. I really wonder that kind of completely not the case interpretation even happened, when many times in the fight Chronos and Aiolia discussed how he attempts to lifewipe Earth, and it was even mentioned by them how Chronos planned to go to the Earth after winning the fight and it was wiped out, so it's clearly not the destruction of the universe or planet.

About mistakes for 2-C, Hades on that level is another complete mistake I noticed on this wiki, because multiple dimensions don't necessarily qualify for 2-C if they aren't known to be entire universes in size unless I misunderstood the tier system, and nothing in the story really places the worlds Hades created as each universes individually.

 

[StekFence]

isn’t one of the prisons it’s own space time or something? And he has 8 of those

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

isn’t one of the prisons it’s own space time or something? And he has 8 of those

I doubt that's the case since the manga and Kurumada's map always portrayed them to be on the same landmass, or at least not for all the prisons (because apparently the website says the 6th Prison was beyond spacetime, so maybe that one might be but even then)

Although even the prisons don't really have any indication of being entire universes in size that I can remember to be 2-C

 

[AerrowStorm1]

isn’t one of the prisons it’s own space time or something? And he has 8 of those

We know for a fact the Sixth Prison is, as it's stated explictly that he was sending Seiya across extra-dimensional space to the Sixth Prison. The official website also says it's outside of space and time. By that logic, all of them should be.

 

[Xxiaa]

We know for a fact the Sixth Prison is, as it's stated explictly that he was sending Seiya across extra-dimensional space to the Sixth Prison. The official website also says it's outside of space and time. By that logic, all of them should be.

Irrc the raw says beyond space-time rather than space and time. Though the official viz translation mentions extra dimensional space

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

We know for a fact the Sixth Prison is, as it's stated explictly that he was sending Seiya across extra-dimensional space to the Sixth Prison. The official website also says it's outside of space and time. By that logic, all of them should be.

Does the website ever describe anything to place these prisons on a universe or even just a general cosmic scale size? Because otherwise even if they all were different dimensions, the outright 2-C rating still seems like misinformation.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Does the website ever describe anything to place these prisons on a universe or even just a general cosmic scale size? Because otherwise even if they all were different dimensions, the outright 2-C rating still seems like misinformation.

Tbh it's actually easy to prove things are universes on the wiki due to how lax the rules are.

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Tbh it's actually easy to prove things are universes on the wiki due to how lax the rules are.

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Well it fits one criteria of being a space-time noted there, but it also mentions that they need to be indicated to be universes in size as well, and therein lies the problem.

• Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.

Even the Super dimension doesn’t seem like it qualifies for a universe

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well it fits one criteria of being a space-time noted there, but it also mentions that they need to be indicated to be universes in size as well, and therein lies the problem.

Even the Super dimension doesn’t seem like it qualifies for a universe

SDS shouldn't qualify anyways. Space and time is someething in constant flux. Duration and Distance is ever changing. its also simply just a realm that splits dimensions apart. its closer to a wormhole or black hole than it is a universe

also the guide says it only needs to prove 1 of those like 7 points not all of them.

These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.

Edit: Point 1 says it can be "or" as in 1 not 2 or 2 and not 1

• If they are outright called universes ----- or ---- stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.{/quote]

Edit 2: Point 2 says synonoms for "Infinite" can also work but as established in the first bullet point its not needed.

Edit 3: Countless galaxies was shown to us, and so was how big the realm was. then we have Dohkos statement of SDS Splitting 2 dimensions apart. Thats baseline 2-C

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

SDS shouldn't qualify anyways. Space and time is someething in constant flux. Duration and Distance is ever changing. its also simply just a realm that splits dimensions apart. its closer to a wormhole or black hole than it is a universe

also the guide says it only needs to prove 1 of those like 7 points not all of them.

Edit: Point 1 says it can be "or" as in 1 not 2 or 2 and not 1


Edit 2: Point 2 says synonoms for "Infinite" can also work but as established in the first bullet point its not needed.

Edit 3: Countless galaxies was shown to us, and so was how big the realm was. then we have Dohkos statement of SDS Splitting 2 dimensions apart. Thats baseline 2-C

Did I miss something, which point does it completely qualify for. It only fits half of one criteria of being a spacetime, but the same criteria mentions that it should be shown or stated to have a reasonable size of a universe, which never happened in the story.

The super dimension only showed a few dozen galaxies, it never mentioned a countless amount. The problem is these dimensions have no explained or remotely ever indicated universal size by the story, even if they are 2 dimensions.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Did I miss something, which point does it completely qualify for. It only fits half of one criteria of being a spacetime, but the same criteria mentions that it should be shown or stated to have a reasonable size of a universe, which never happened in the story.

You do know what "or" means in an English sentence right?

and it only needs 1 bullet point not all 7. Size isn't important if 1 bullet point is already met.

The super dimension only showed a few dozen galaxies, it never mentioned a countless amount. The problem is these dimensions have no explained or remotely ever indicated universal size by the story, even if they are 2 dimensions.

The Super Dimension only showed countless stars. The scene your referring too isn't strictly referring to the Super Dimension. Its a very common misconception but the scene your talking about it is metaphorically worded and is talking about the whole Underworld in a general sense. The same wording was used 3 other times before the Super Dimension was showed

also, again size isn't important if 1 criteria/bullet point is already met. you only need just one.

Edit:

Space-time | Definition & Facts

Space-time, in physical science, single concept that recognizes the union of space and time, first proposed by the mathematician Hermann Minkowski in 1908 as a way to reformulate Albert Einstein’s special theory of relativity (1905). Learn more about space-time in this article.

www.britannica.com

"Alternate titles: four-dimensional space, space-time continuum"

Spacetime - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In physics, spacetime is a mathematical model that combines the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional manifold. Spacetime diagrams can be used to visualize relativistic effects, such as why different observers perceive differently where and when events occur."

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

You do know what "or" means in an English sentence right(

If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.

It says it need to be a space-time and have a universal size, “or” was in reference to how said universal size can be established, which is via being shown or stated, but that part never happened in the story in any way.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

It says it need to be a space-time and have a universal size, “or” was in reference to how said universal size can be established, which is via being shown or stated, but that part never happened in the story in any way.

• These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.
  
  
• If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
  TLDR; "Or" is being used to to say that there is an alternative so the other is not needed to be proven.
  
  
• If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes. [1]

Or: used as a function word to indicate an alternative

Edit: your hyperfixating on that one bullet point it's not the only criteria that can be met. there is like 7 other ones. Only 1 is needed to be proven. that's how lax the system is here.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.

If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes. TLDR; "Or" is being used to state an alternative.

If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes. [1]

Or: used as a function word to indicate an alternative

It means one of the bullet points should be met, but none of the bullet points are completely met.

And it literally meets neither of those alternatives mentioned in that point, because it was called or said to have the size of a universe.

You know it’s probably best if I just make a post on questions and answers asking, if this just comes down to interpretations of the tiering system.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

It means one of the bullet points should be met, but none of the bullet points are completely met.

And it literally meets neither of those alternatives mentioned in that point, because it was called or said to have the size of a universe.

You know it’s probably best if I just make a post on questions and answers asking, if this just comes down to interpretations of the tiering system.

.... there literally called "spacetimes.." in the raws...

thats 2 bullet points met...

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

.... there literally called spacetimes.. in the raws...

thats 2 bullet points met...

That bullet point you posted says “called universes or stated to be the size of universes.” Being a space-time only met half of one criteria, but any rate I think it’s more efficient to just make a post on Questions and Answers about this topic.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That bullet point you posted says “called universes or stated to be the size of universes.” Being a space-time only met half of one criteria, but any rate I think it’s more efficient to just make a post on Questions and Answers about this topic.

you can make a Q&A if you want but the word "or" is being used to state an alternative so the other isn't needed.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

you can make a Q&A if you want but the word "or" is being used to state an alternative so the other isn't needed.

The alternative is clearly worded as a reference for the point that mentioned space-time was describing how the universal size can be proven (shown or stated), and it literally says “space-time and shown or stated universal size.”

But any rate I posted this as a question for efficiency.

 

[AlexZiggy]

But he never affected the cosmology in any way, and even then that power itself was only a time hax/warp caused by a chain reaction of destroying his Hourglass, so it's not really an AP feat or even environmental destruction since he was only messing up the time of Earth to cause humanity to be wiped out, and wasn't even destroying the planet Earth itself.

Not true, Cronus said it would affect the KL aswell. Other than that I agree it's not an AP feat

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Not true, Cronus said it would affect the KL aswell. Other than that I agree it's not an AP feat

What's the KL? I only remember him mentioning how humanity would be killed by ancient beasts and the altering of time.

Besides Earth, it was only mentioned that where Chronos and Aiolia were fighting too would be wiped out into the depth of Tartarus, but even then it indicated the entirety of Tartarus wouldn't be destroyed, so this isn't really that notable.

 

[AlexZiggy]

... that's a whole ass universe wdym not that notable

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It means one of the bullet points should be met, but none of the bullet points are completely met.

And it literally meets neither of those alternatives mentioned in that point, because it was called or said to have the size of a universe.

You know it’s probably best if I just make a post on questions and answers asking, if this just comes down to interpretations of the tiering system.

To be honest I don't understand very well the criteria of universes either, sometimes I have seen that if something is considered a space-time continuum it is enough to be universes, but other times I have seen that this is not enough, for example Kaguya's dimensions are named as a space-time, but this does not mean that they are universes according to the wiki criteria, so better ask someone from the staff what are the criteria for a space to be considered a universe.

Although the fact that Underworld/Hell is one of the six worlds could indicate that at least it is a universe, because within the structure of this series, the human world (the universe) is one of these six worlds, but to be honest I'm not entirely sure if we can use that argument to indicate that it is a universe.

What's the KL? I only remember him mentioning how humanity would be killed by ancient beasts and the altering of time.

Besides Earth, it was only mentioned that where Chronos and Aiolia were fighting too would be wiped out into the depth of Tartarus, but even then it indicated the entirety of Tartarus wouldn't be destroyed, so this isn't really that notable.

It does not seem to indicate that all of Tartarus is destroyed and it seems that only the ground is destroyed, the land of the Titans in Tartarus where the castle of Chronos was, we can even see how at the end of the fight Aiolia and Chronos fall into the depths of Tartarus by the collapse caused in the land where they are standing.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

... that's a whole ass universe wdym not that notable

The entirety of Tartarus is the dimension (I don't remember when it was shown to be universal though), not only the place where Chronos and Aiolia fought.

Although the fact that Underworld/Hell is one of the six worlds could indicate that at least it is a universe, because within the structure of this series, the human world (the universe) is one of these six worlds, but to be honest I'm not entirely sure if we can use that argument to indicate that it is a universe.

Yeah, it's probably too vague and reliant on speculation to work at the moment with the such little information about the 4 other worlds and how they compare, without any confirmation that the six worlds are equal in size or parallel worlds. '

But in terms of story context, I have some doubts for it to be intended to be an entire universe, because I even remember how as far as the manga goes, Seiya when he first reached Hell talked about how there wasn't a single star visible in the sky at all, and the darkness of Hell seems to confirm his observation.

And Kurumada's map seeming to place the prisons and all as the entirety of Hell, and the Wailing Wall is even the end of that entire dimension and busting through it outright lead to a different one.

 

[AlexZiggy]

The entirety of Tartarus is the dimension (I don't remember when it was shown to be universal though), not only the place where Chronos and Aiolia fought.

Every Titan has a universe, the Labyrinth is Cronus' own. Tartarus is more of a void rather than a standard dimension

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I share this, it is the part of the extra story of Time Odyssey, where it is described that the Phoenix Cloth destroyed the continent of Mu (Atlantis).

And Kurumada's map seeming to place the prisons and all as the entirety of Hell, and the Wailing Wall is even the end of that entire dimension and busting through it outright lead to a different one.

The map seems to be only a representation of this place to locate where the characters are in the story and not something precise that's why even some locations that are mentioned as the river Lethe do not appear in this one, it is more like the map of the Sanctuary in the battle of the twelve temples that was only to give a location to the characters and not a precise representation of this place (something that only appeared until Next Dimension).

Every Titan has a universe, the Labyrinth is Cronus' own. Tartarus is more of a void rather than a standard dimension

It is only a small dimensional space within a Temple, this does not qualify as a universe in any way.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

@Lancelot_de_Cancer I don’t even remember the River Lethe being properly shown honestly, and only mentioned vaguely as along the way to Elysion (hence why some even thought it might mean the super dimension or something which isn’t necessarily part of Hell).

Although Seiyas’s observation should still rule out the fact that Hell has a cosmos in the manga, although maybe Toei’s version of Hell can be seen rated at least 4-A when those pages are made, because it seemed like there were some stars in the sky in some scenes like Kanon and Rhadamanthys’ deaths.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I share this, it is the part of the extra story of Time Odyssey, where it is described that the Phoenix Cloth destroyed the continent of Mu (Atlantis).

The map seems to be only a representation of this place to locate where the characters are in the story and not something precise that's why even some locations that are mentioned as the river Lethe do not appear in this one, it is more like the map of the Sanctuary in the battle of the twelve temples that was only to give a location to the characters and not a precise representation of this place (something that only appeared until Next Dimension).

It is only a small dimensional space within a Temple, this does not qualify as a universe in any way.

You got that scans to Phoenix cloth destroying mu? I'm very interested on that

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I don’t even remember the River Lethe being properly shown honestly, and only mentioned vaguely as along the way to Elysion (hence why some even thought it might mean the super dimension or something which isn’t necessarily part of Hell).

Although Seiyas’s observation should still rule out the fact that Hell has a cosmos in the manga, although maybe Toei’s version of Hell can be seen rated at least 4-A when those pages are made, because it seemed like there were some stars in the sky in some scenes like Kanon and Rhadamanthys’ deaths.

It never appears in the story, but several characters mention this place, even Hades himself mentions the existence of that river, although you are right, some suppose it could be the superdimension.

To be honest it is never mentioned that the shining objects in the sky in the Toei Animation version are stars and as it is mentioned several times in that place there is no light or shining any star (although they could refer to the light of a star as the sun that illuminates the whole place), the description is similar to the description of Hell in the manga, and even the map of Hell in the Kanzenban Edition (which was probably the version adapted in the anime, because it was the definitive version of this manga, before the Final Edition) we can also see some glowing objects in the dark space around the land of the Hell.