Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[Hasty12345]

Koga > Tenma

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Was rereading Saintia Sho, and curious, has this possible correlation ever occurred to anyone else?

So in the Hades chapter, it clearly shows that end of the path to Elysion involves entering a galaxy or something that resembles one:

Taken on it's own, since the manga was never too particular to mention it, it means that Elysion either exists in this galaxy, or, as many sources seem to indicate, Elysion is in a different dimension, and this "galaxy" was a portal to another dimension. The latter interpretation is a pretty curious detail considering what Sho and also ND shows.

Basically, Sho shows a place that seems to be the exact same thing as whatever the path to Elysium was.

A dimension of distorted space-time that contains miniature planets and asteroids and other rocks along with these "galaxies", just like the path to Elysion and basically a complete visual replica. And in this scene, when Shoko is entered through one of these "galaxies" it's shown that it was actually a portal to different dimension.

This seems to even tie into how Athena's time travel generated portals in space-time to different dimensions that were also depicted as "galaxies", or the "galaxies" in Chronos' lake that led to different time periods.

If Elysion is a different dimension it seems to be this is what it probably is, and if this is the case could upgrade Hades on his profile to add to his abilities that he created everlasting portals in space-time to different dimensions.

 

[Hasty12345]

The super dimensional space was never really presented as something Hades created and was more likely intended to be a pathway any god could use. I do agree Kurumada draws galaxy (he's also used galaxy shaped visual aids for "universes" in at least 1 instance I can think of) shaped objects as stand-ins for portals, this is a consistent visual style throughout his StS works.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

The super dimensional space was never really presented as something Hades created and was more likely intended to be a pathway any god could use.

Right, I even recall how TLC had the same interpretation you mention for it being a pathway of the gods, although TLC being a different world and Teshirogi having some inconsistencies with Kurumada in some things she depicts may put into question if we can account it for it for the main story.

But as for Kurumada indications of the idea that maybe Hades did not really create this place you mention and Teshirogi depicted to be the case, unless I'm misreading into it, or does Pandora (who had the ability to travel through all these places due to Hades' necklace) seem to completely distinguish the Super Dimensional Space from the Underworld (which Hades described to be the entirety of creation in Hell+Elysion)?

 

[Hasty12345]

Right, I even recall how TLC had the same interpretation you mention for it being a pathway of the gods, although TLC being a different world and Teshirogi having some inconsistencies with Kurumada in some things she depicts may put into question if we can account it for it for the main story.

But as for Kurumada indications of the idea that maybe Hades did not really create this place you mention and Teshirogi depicted to be the case, unless I'm misreading into it, or does Pandora (who had the ability to travel through all these places due to Hades' necklace) seem to completely distinguish the Super Dimensional Space from the Underworld (which Hades described to be the entirety of creation in Hell+Elysion)?

If the Super Space was a part of the UW structure Hades created, I do believe he himself would have listed it with Hell and Elysium upon his disappearance. Pandora also listing them as though they're separate entities also lends credence to the idea the SS is more of a shared path than one exclusive to Hades and his boy band.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Was rereading Saintia Sho, and curious, has this possible correlation ever occurred to anyone else?

So in the Hades chapter, it clearly shows that end of the path to Elysion involves entering a galaxy or something that resembles one:

Tgos comes up often but what's being described here isn't the SDS. It's just an Allegory, a metaphorical poetic way of describing the UW. The same lines were uses even before the SDS was introduced.

The SDS us undeterminable size

But it was a wormhole to other dimensions

Also what hasty said

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Right, I even recall how TLC had the same interpretation you mention for it being a pathway of the gods, although TLC being a different world and Teshirogi having some inconsistencies with Kurumada in some things she depicts may put into question if we can account it for it for the main story.

But as for Kurumada indications of the idea that maybe Hades did not really create this place you mention and Teshirogi depicted to be the case, unless I'm misreading into it, or does Pandora (who had the ability to travel through all these places due to Hades' necklace) seem to completely distinguish the Super Dimensional Space from the Underworld (which Hades described to be the entirety of creation in Hell+Elysion)?

Besides 8th sense stuff which I plan on clearing up all confusion on that in the future and prove there are 0 inconsistencies what are these other inconsistencies since you used a plural term?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Besides 8th sense stuff which I plan on clearing up all confusion on that in the future and prove there are 0 inconsistencies what are these other inconsistencies since you used a plural term?

Well maybe I'll change my perspective when you post your explanation, but I also thought the 8th sense in TLC is notably different from how Kurumada depicts it.

Although some other notable discrepancies such as the Pisces Saints being immune to their poison, which doesn't seem to be the case for Kurumada's perspective, or the co-existing of Saints or former ones across generations.

But I guess these aren't really discrepancies to the setting/world itself to say it invalidates how TLC depicts the Super dimension, but most users I saw in the past always dismissed correlating TLC details to canon due to it not being an alternate story outside of canon from a different writer, but perhaps this forum sees it differently.

Tgos comes up often but what's being described here isn't the SDS. It's just an Allegory, a metaphorical poetic way of describing the UW. The same lines were uses even before the SDS was introduced.

The SDS us undeterminable size

But it was a wormhole to other dimensions

I agree with that, but I was just referring to the visuals/camera zooming in across and into a "galaxy" progressively to show Elysuim and this depicts the path to this place through it, not the dialogue.

Although if it's really supposed to be a path to different dimensions, then I think even more strongly that those galaxy shaped things are probably distortions in space-time/portals like how Kurumada and Kuori depict it. Well, it's entire size is probably undeterminable yes, but can't Thanatos claiming how he will kill from light years away be applied to it's minimum size?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well maybe I'll change my perspective when you post your explanation, but I also thought the 8th sense in TLC is notably different from how Kurumada depicts it.

Something to keep in mind is the 8th sense is a very important buddhist concept that has existed for centuries. So it had a reference source.

Although some other notable discrepancies such as the Pisces Saints being immune to their poison, which doesn't seem to be the case for Kurumada's perspective, or the co-existing of Saints or former ones across generations.

This is just differences in the timeline. Gods can be debated to be singular, bur humans are 100% bound by the multiverse and time so differences there are okay and that doesn't make Something "non-canon." I'm going off topic

But ultimately those differences are to be expected from a different universe.

But I guess these aren't really discrepancies to the setting/world itself

ah yeah pretty much that lol. Its not a discrepancy to the world of Saint Seiya and its also explained very elaborately in verse too iirc.

Well, it's entire size is probably undeterminable yes, but can't Thanatos claiming how he will kill from light years away be applied to it's minimum size?

That really depends on how you view the multiverse.

Do you believe every universe in SS has Its own Hades and Underworld?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

This is just differences in the timeline. Gods can be debated to be singular, bur humans are 100% bound by the multiverse and time so differences there are okay and that doesn't make Something "non-canon." I'm going off topic

But ultimately those differences are to be expected from a different universe.

Well, since it's a different timeline, doesn't that make it "non canon" and put correlating different timelines into question?

ah yeah pretty much that lol. Its not a discrepancy to the world of Saint Seiya and its also explained very elaborately in verse too iirc.

True, I don't remember TLC having any clear cut contradictions with the setting, this seems to only be a problem for Episode G for having major differences in the setting (Athena's Statue and the seal chamber, Tartarus and the Underworld).

That really depends on how you view the multiverse.

Do you believe every universe in SS has Its own Hades and Underworld?

I don't really remember where Kurumada ever indicated that this is or isn't the case particularly by showing or stating multiple universes for one Underworld directly, and the only other universe I remember that was shown in his work was the world where Shiryu fell into and lived out a different life.

But if we take other stores like TLC and Assassin's settings into account then it probably stands to reason that the gods are probably local to their universes and there are many versions, as TLC shows a completely different story for Tenma/Hades and Sasha/Athena than their versions in Next Dimension, and Assassin directly states that there are different Athenas and Sanctuaries of parallel worlds (such as Yoshino and Tomoe) and even different versions of Saori, such as the one Aiolos killed.

The only indication in Kurumada's work for this topic is that, I think it would also be strange that there was one Underworld for multiple or all of the universes, because then we would have seen various multiple versions of the Saints, Specters, and Hades/Athena themselves doing battle at the same time in the same place in the timelines that the Hades Arc happens (and if we account for Assassin/Requiem's infinite universes setting, of course the Hades Arc happened in many other universes), but it only shows one set of them, or we would see various versions of dead mortal characters together in the Underworld and even in the main story they probably would've been acknowledged or incorporated, but we also only see one set for the respective timeline.

And also maybe the fact that the Underworld was subject to the space-time continuum/timeline of just the main universe, since by time travelling back Hades (I know it's not completely agreed upon here if his soul/existence was destroyed, but we know at least that Hell/Elysion and his body were destroyed, and they still exist in the past) and the Underworld were restored, which also seems really wonky to me if many timelines shared the same Underworld.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well, since it's a different timeline, doesn't that make it "non canon" and put correlating different timelines into question?

Not exactly. Things can be canon and be completely different timelines. It's being canon in a shared multiverse.

True, I don't remember TLC having any clear cut contradictions with the setting, this seems to only be a problem for Episode G for having major differences in the setting (Athena's Statue and the seal chamber, Tartarus and the Underworld).

I'll save this for my future canonicity blog lol still research and found very interstate things. Waiting on some translation though from natives speakers.

I don't really remember where Kurumada ever indicated that this is or isn't the case particularly by showing or stating multiple universes for one Underworld directly, and the only other universe I remember that was shown in his work was the world where Shiryu fell into and lived out a different life.

But if we take other stores like TLC and Assassin's settings into account then it probably stands to reason that the gods are probably local to their universes and there are many versions, as TLC shows a completely different story for Tenma/Hades and Sasha/Athena than their versions in Next Dimension, and Assassin directly states that there are different Athenas and Sanctuaries of parallel worlds (such as Yoshino and Tomoe) and even different versions of Saori, such as the one Aiolos killed.

The only indication in Kurumada's work for this topic is that, I think it would also be strange that there was one Underworld for multiple or all of the universes, because then we would have seen various multiple versions of the Saints, Specters, and Hades/Athena themselves doing battle at the same time in the same place in the timelines that the Hades Arc happens (and if we account for Assassin/Requiem's infinite universes setting, of course the Hades Arc happened in many other universes), but it only shows one set of them, or we would see various versions of dead mortal characters together in the Underworld and even in the main story they probably would've been acknowledged or incorporated, but we also only see one set for the respective timeline.

And also maybe the fact that the Underworld was subject to the space-time continuum/timeline of just the main universe, since by time travelling back Hades (I know it's not completely agreed upon here if his soul/existence was destroyed, but we know at least that Hell/Elysion and his body were destroyed, and they still exist in the past) and the Underworld were restored, which also seems really wonky to me if many timelines shared the same Underworld.

Ssoo what's your answer on that? Do you believe the universe is really big and it's all just 3-dimemsional space?


Actually that's good too. Let's assume the living world and the UW are just 3-A universes sharing the same space.

Then it would be an unquantifiable feat possibly infinite speed. With interdimensional range

If they were all separate spacetimes sharing the same "universe" then it's immeasurable speed with 5D range.

If it's not sharing the same "universe" and separate worlds within the multiverse then infinite speed with 2-A range.

Edit: the sds having ever changing space and time does also make it... infinite at minimum

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Not exactly. Things can be canon and be completely different timelines. It's being canon in a shared multiverse.


I'll save this for my future canonicity blog lol still research and found very interstate things. Waiting on some translation though from natives speakers.

I guess in that way TLC or G/GA can be considered canon yeah (Okada on twitter even described how he created a new universe before), but still I don't know how credible it is correlate between them, because as I mentioned, G has a notably different setting and Underworld than Kurumada's main setting.

Ssoo what's your answer on that? Do you believe the universe is really big and it's all just 3-dimemsional space?


Actually that's good too. Let's assume the living world and the UW are just 3-A universes sharing the same space.

Then it would be an unquantifiable feat possibly infinite speed. With interdimensional range

If they were all separate spacetimes sharing the same "universe" then it's immeasurable speed with 5D range.

If it's not sharing the same "universe" and separate worlds within the multiverse then infinite speed with 2-A range.

Edit: the sds having ever changing space and time does also make it... infinite at minimum

My answer would be that in Kurumada's work it's never specified directly either way since he's barely begun incorporating other universes, but extraneous scrutiny points to the fact each universe has it's own gods and Underworld, and if extrapolation from GA/TLC is permissible, then it's definitely the case.

Perhaps the final season of ND will shed some more light on it, since Hades and his army will finally play a more important role in the story (it seems) and the previews show Odysseus shows more of these space-time portals that sent Shiryu to another universe.

Personally, I don't think the Living world and Underworld should be 3-A sharing the same space or at least this isn't consistent even in ND itself, even though they are part of one universe/timeline and were affected by it's time flow.

• According to Deathtoll, Sekishikimekaiha is a technique that sends the victim to a different space-time, he told this to Vermer after using it on Ikki. This indicates the Yomotsu Hirasaka is a different spacetime.
• When Shun escapes the Yomotsu Hirasaka with his Nebula Chain, he claims that the chain "can cross the space between dimensions."

If the place between the Underworld and Living World is already a different dimension, then it stands to reason that so is the Underworld. The detail of the Underworld being affected by travelling back in space-time in the main universe is just a PIS/WIS of Kurumada, or this is similar to Dragon Ball Super where there it's seemingly considered that are levels of space-time/the timeline that encompasses different ones within it, which is the perspective on this wiki too I believe.

 

[AlexZiggy]

In terms of G there is more evidence for there being a single god that can act through avatars in the multiverse.
Zeus went around killing Seiyas, Pontos being unable to summon Titans again as allies, Tartarus being used as a gateway between dimensions, Cronus being able to bridge the gaps between dimensions too, etc.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I guess in that way TLC or G/GA can be considered canon yeah (Okada on twitter even described how he created a new universe before), but still I don't know how credible it is correlate between them, because as I mentioned, G has a notably different setting and Underworld than Kurumada's main setting.


My answer would be that in Kurumada's work it's never specified directly either way since he's barely begun incorporating other universes, but extraneous scrutiny points to the fact each universe has it's own gods and Underworld, and if extrapolation from GA/TLC is permissible, then it's definitely the case.

Perhaps the final season of ND will shed some more light on it, since Hades and his army will finally play a more important role in the story (it seems) and the previews show Odysseus shows more of these space-time portals that sent Shiryu to another universe.

Personally, I don't think the Living world and Underworld should be 3-A sharing the same space or at least this isn't consistent even in ND itself, even though they are part of one universe/timeline and were affected by it's time flow.

• According to Deathtoll, Sekishikimekaiha is a technique that sends the victim to a different space-time, he told this to Vermer after using it on Ikki. This indicates the Yomotsu Hirasaka is a different spacetime.
• When Shun escapes the Yomotsu Hirasaka with his Nebula Chain, he claims that the chain "can cross the space between dimensions."

If the place between the Underworld and Living World is already a different dimension, then it stands to reason that so is the Underworld. The detail of the Underworld being affected by travelling back in space-time in the main universe is just a PIS/WIS of Kurumada, or this is similar to Dragon Ball Super where there it's seemingly considered that are levels of space-time/the timeline that encompasses different ones within it, which is the perspective on this wiki too I believe.

I'll have a response to this tomorrow

Irl stuff going on

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I guess in that way TLC or G/GA can be considered canon yeah (Okada on twitter even described how he created a new universe before), but still I don't know how credible it is correlate between them, because as I mentioned, G has a notably different setting and Underworld than Kurumada's main setting.

Whats different with these underworlds?

My answer would be that in Kurumada's work it's never specified directly either way since he's barely begun incorporating other universes, but extraneous scrutiny points to the fact each universe has it's own gods and Underworld, and if extrapolation from GA/TLC is permissible, then it's definitely the case.

well since its been brought up. TLC doesn't actaully give any evidence to singularity of gods

The 8th sense by nature though should.

Hero of Heroes supports the singularity of the Gods

Saintia Sho does too because Dysmonia says "Gods can mess up the multiverse" also she called the whole multiverse "The Universe."

GR/GA has way to much to list

ND has Alsc-snake god with multiverse awareness with Athena causing macrocosmic destruction and the Pope says "Any God" can do it

Alsc-Snake God is the one who says Athena is causing macrocosmic destruction

Dark Wing currently has Athena with multiverse awareness and im still getting caught up on it but wasn't it her that took Aiolos and Isekai'ed him?

Also Samsara is a multiverse wide concept that gods casaully mess around with.

Edit: Also you have TO with Chronos revelations

I just woke up but thats off the top of my head/

Perhaps the final season of ND will shed some more light on it, since Hades and his army will finally play a more important role in the story (it seems) and the previews show Odysseus shows more of these space-time portals that sent Shiryu to another universe.

Personally, I don't think the Living world and Underworld should be 3-A sharing the same space or at least this isn't consistent even in ND itself, even though they are part of one universe/timeline and were affected by it's time flow.

• According to Deathtoll, Sekishikimekaiha is a technique that sends the victim to a different space-time, he told this to Vermer after using it on Ikki. This indicates the Yomotsu Hirasaka is a different spacetime.
• When Shun escapes the Yomotsu Hirasaka with his Nebula Chain, he claims that the chain "can cross the space between dimensions."

If the place between the Underworld and Living World is already a different dimension, then it stands to reason that so is the Underworld. The detail of the Underworld being affected by travelling back in space-time in the main universe is just a PIS/WIS of Kurumada, or this is similar to Dragon Ball Super where there it's seemingly considered that are levels of space-time/the timeline that encompasses different ones within it, which is the perspective on this wiki too I believe.

I don't remember the UW being affected in ND just Yomotsu Hirasaka iirc but iirc i think it was something to do with Athenas Divine Will having a barrier being weakened in YH and not so much YH being distorted

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Whats different with these underworlds?

Episode G: Tartarus is it's own world where the Titans were imprisoned and various battles took place, and the Saints could enter this place even though they never had the 8th sense
Next Dimension: Tartarus is part of Hades' Underworld, and it seemingly has a different design completely from Episode G

well since its been brought up. TLC doesn't actaully give any evidence to singularity of gods

It shows a completely different version and story of Sasha (Athena) and Tenma (Hades) than Next Dimension, so if TLC is considered a different universe then it indicates there are other versions of them.

Saintia Sho does too because Dysmonia says "Gods can mess up the multiverse" also she called the whole multiverse "The Universe."

ND has Alsc-snake god with multiverse awareness with Athena causing macrocosmic destruction and the Pope says "Any God" can do it

Alsc-Snake God is the one who says Athena is causing macrocosmic destruction

She just means the universe as it says, the story never shows the gods affecting the multiverse and only the universe, and "universe" does not mean all of them, and Dysnomia makes this distinction too.

すべての宇宙 = all universes

宇宙 on it's own= a single universe

ND has Alsc-snake god with multiverse awareness with Athena causing macrocosmic destruction and the Pope says "Any God" can do it

Alsc-Snake God is the one who says Athena is causing macrocosmic destruction

Asclepius isn't a god, is a former Saint, and he only says that Athena affects the universe in their time period and it only shows that it affects the universe in that moment.

The phrase 大宇宙 you're probably extrapolating "macrocosm" is simply a fancy translation of what literally means "Great Universe", and this word is simply verbiage for the universe usually and in this context, and Asclepius or the Pope as far as I remember doesn't even use the 大宇宙 phrase you probably mention and only mentions the 宇宙, a basic way of describing the universe.

Athena obviously only affects the universe, since the next universes such as the one Shiryu went to was completely unaffected by these distortions at any point in time (even though they appeared on Earth first) and he lives out his entire life with none of it happening.

Dark Wing currently has Athena with multiverse awareness and im still getting caught up on it but wasn't it her that took Aiolos and Isekai'ed him?

Also Samsara is a multiverse wide concept that gods casaully mess around with.

Edit: Also you have TO with Chronos revelations

Something like that, it indicates that Athena's soul reincarnates universe to universe, but it seems to be exclusive to her and it still goes on to depict different versions of the gods that don't do this reincarnation, such as showing different versions of Hades and Hypnos/Thanatos that weren't nearly as racist towards humans as in the original timeline.

Really? The only characters I remember with any Samsara (cycle of life of death/reincarnation) related powers are:

• Athena's cycle of reincarnation as Saori
• Cancer Saint
• Virgo Saint
• Hades
• The Phoenix Cloth
• 8th sense Gold Saints (this one especially, and they had abilities even the gods don't)

And these characters only shown have this power in their world, besides maybe Dark Wing Athena who can reincarnate to a different universe.

I don't remember the UW being affected in ND just Yomotsu Hirasaka iirc but iirc i think it was something to do with Athenas Divine Will having a barrier being weakened in YH and not so much YH being distorted

In the present time period, at the very least, most if not all of Elysion and Hell are in ruins and destroyed, and at the very least, Hades mythological body and his sword was physically destroyed as well. Athena travelling back in space-time in the Living World affects the Underworld, since in the past when she went back in time the Underworld was not destroyed, Hades still has his sword and body and is in the past, his Specters are still around in a past version, etc.

 

[StekFence]

Well, since it's a different timeline, doesn't that make it "non canon" and put correlating different timelines into question?

I wouldn’t say that, since let’s take an example in marvel, earth 616 and earth 1610 are different timelines, but are still canon locations in each other’s stories, due to being the same multiverse. In terms of ss, they very well could be different canons, but being different timelines isn’t something that would prove that

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I wouldn’t say that, since let’s take an example in marvel, earth 616 and earth 1610 are different timelines, but are still canon locations in each other’s stories, due to being the same multiverse. In terms of ss, they very well could be different canons, but being different timelines isn’t something that would prove that

I see, that makes sense. I always thought canon meant the main timeline and this is why most forums call works like the DBZ movies or GT “non canon” even though Toriyama described them as different dimensions.

Well, we can least consider that this is the case for Episode G/GA, even if not the other series, Okada describes that the writer and the fans created a new universe as obviously a reference to his own work.

 

[StekFence]

I always thought canon meant the main timeline

I consider stuff like that the “main canon” where stories primarily take place

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Right, I even recall how TLC had the same interpretation you mention for it being a pathway of the gods, although TLC being a different world and Teshirogi having some inconsistencies with Kurumada in some things she depicts may put into question if we can account it for it for the main story.

That was always one of the great inconsistencies of TLC, where it is even said and we can see how the gods opened that portal to travel to other places, even to places like Olympus, while in canon we never see the gods open that way, even Saori opens a completely different way to travel to Olympus at the beginning of ND. Although in the original manga, the superdimension is only part of the world of the dead, being something that exists exclusively in that place, a distortion or dimensional space created by Hades as a last defense to prevent mortals from entering the Elysium, something similar to what we see in the Sanctuary with the barriers of some Temples, being these defenses to prevent invaders from being able to cross that place, such as the Labyrinth of the Gods in the Temple of the Pope.

About the galaxy-shaped portals, this is just something exclusive to a time travel power, something that Hades does not possess, in fact no god among the Olympians possesses such a power, and Eris as we know received a great power up in the story, to the point that she is probably the most powerful goddess in a manga in this franchise, so what she did does not scale to any other god.

She just means the universe as it says, the story never shows the gods affecting the multiverse and only the universe, and "universe" does not mean all of them, and Dysnomia makes this distinction too.

Yes, the most the characters have shown in this series is to throw a person or object into another dimension, and it has never been clear if it is something controlled or just throwing them into a random dimension. Furthermore, Dysnomia even claims that the dimension she could access and see all universes is a realm away from the eyes and power of the gods, so basically this confirms that only she has such power, as a destroyer of all order and a being that exists outside the laws of the universe.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Well yeah, Hades shouldn't scale to Eris, I was thinking moreso a point of comparison between the travelling into a "galaxy" leading to another dimension

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Really? The only characters I remember with any Samsara (cycle of life of death/reincarnation) related powers are:

• Athena's cycle of reincarnation as Saori
• Cancer Saint
• Virgo Saint
• Hades
• The Phoenix Cloth
• 8th sense Gold Saints (this one especially, and they had abilities even the gods don't)

And these characters only shown have this power in their world, besides maybe Dark Wing Athena who can reincarnate to a different universe.

I don't remember Cancer having any power related to this and Deathmask only mentions it when threatening to destroy Shiryu's soul. The same goes for the Phoenix Cloth which has nothing related to the cycle of reincarnation, and Athena only reincarnates as a mortal and mortals reincarnate in this universe, and Hades doesn't show any power over this either. The only ones who have a power related to this cycle are the Virgo Saint with a technique that kills the opponent and makes him reincarnate in one of the six worlds and the users of the 8th Sense and the Buddhas who have left this cycle behind.

The only character who really has power over the cycle of reincarnation is the Demiurge (is the god who manipulates the cycle of reincarnation) as described in Dark Wing, who is basically manipulating the Holy War and all the gods in it, without them being able to do anything about it, the only one who proved to be aware of his presence was Athena and even she needed help from Aiolos to be able to communicate with Shoichiro and Cattleya to inform them of this, even Hypnos and Thanatos who have demonstrated greater knowledge than other gods (they knew of Pandora's betrayal and knew the location of Seiya's sister) were not aware of the presence of this god.

About the Athena of Dark Wing, she is an Athena that treats Saori's life as her past, so it is impossible to scale her with any other Athena or god in this franchise, since she is basically an Athena that has the experience of Saori (the most powerful Athena, the only one who awakened the 8th sense, even if it was only for a few seconds, and the most successful of all times), that's why she basically shows abilities that no other Athena possesses, like healing Cattleya easily from a weapon to kill gods or knowing the existence of the Demiruge, something that even gods like Hypnos, Thanatos and Hades didn't know.

In the present time period, at the very least, most if not all of Elysion and Hell are in ruins and destroyed, and at the very least, Hades mythological body and his sword was physically destroyed as well. Athena travelling back in space-time in the Living World affects the Underworld, since in the past when she went back in time the Underworld was not destroyed, Hades still has his sword and body and is in the past, his Specters are still around in a past version, etc.

It is because they are in the past, a time when the Underworld had not been destroyed and Hades was still alive, so Athena traveled to the past to destroy Hades' sword and change history to save Seiya. But the Underworld is not being affected by the distortion that is destroying the universe, something that indicates that it is not part of the universe.

Well yeah, Hades shouldn't scale to Eris, I was thinking moreso a point of comparison between the travelling into a "galaxy" leading to another dimension

That is a power of time travel and even travel through the multiverse, something that Hades does not possess, so the comparison does not work, since Eris is more powerful and therefore could create a distortion similar to those created by the distortion in space and time or those that exist within the portal of Chronos.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I don't remember Cancer having any power related to this and Deathmask only mentions it when threatening to destroy Shiryu's soul. The same goes for the Phoenix Cloth which has nothing related to the cycle of reincarnation, and Athena only reincarnates as a mortal and mortals reincarnate in this universe, and Hades doesn't show any power over this either. Only the Virgo Saint with a technique that kills the opponent and makes him reincarnate in one of the six worlds and the users of the 8th Sense and Buddhas who have left this cycle behind.

Is a reference to Sekishikimekaiha since it sends them to their deaths

Well, I thought samsara just means simply life and death in general that's why I thought about the Phoenix Cloth's ability

It is because they are in the past, a time when the Underworld had not been destroyed and Hades was still alive, so Athena traveled to the past to destroy Hades' sword and change history to save Seiya. But the Underworld is not being affected by the distortion that is destroying the universe, something that indicates that it is not part of the universe.

Right, which I think indicates that there is an Underworld for each universe if they're individually tied to one universe in such a manner

That is a power of time travel and even travel through the multiverse, something that Hades does not possess, so the comparison does not work, since Eris is more powerful and therefore could create a distortion similar to those created by the distortion in space and time or those that exist within the portal of Chronos.

Maybe so, I just wondered how could the path to Elysion being depicted as entering the center of a galaxy in the super dimension be explained because I thought it was supposed to be a different dimension

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Is a reference to Sekishikimekaiha since it sends them to their deaths

Well, I thought samsara just means simply life and death in general that's why I thought about the Phoenix Cloth's ability

All the attacks in this series send them to death, even most mortals also have to cross the Yomotsu. The only difference is that Cancer is a hax that sends the opponent's soul directly to that place, like Papillon's Fairy Thronging that sends the opponent directly to the Underworld.

The Phoenix Cloth only has the ability to rebuild itself, an ability that other armors have, but the Phoenix's is more powerful. Ikki's immortality is never entirely clear in the story, even the characters themselves wonder how he can come back from the dead like the Phoenix, even Time Odyssey has this detail with the Moiras sent by Chronos manipulating Ikki's destiny so that he died on Mount Fuji, but inexplicably came back to life (even for Chronos it is a mystery how Ikki came back to life).

Right, which I think indicates that there is an Underworld for each universe if they're individually tied to one universe in such a manner

Correct, there is an Underworld for each universe, similar to how there is a version of Hades for each universe or timeline.

Maybe so, I just wondered how could the path to Elysion being depicted as entering the center of a galaxy in the super dimension be explained because I thought it was supposed to be a different dimension

To be honest I don't remember that it was mentioned that the Elysion is in another dimension, I only remember that it is said that it is a world (but this word is absurdly vague), I even remember that it was mentioned that they could reach this place crossing the Acheron river and the Lethe river (unless by Lethe river they mean the surperdimension). Maybe this place is in that galaxy, something like a world or planet in that place, because I remember that in Saint Seiya the Elysion is perfectly illuminated, so it could be assumed that there is a star illuminating that place, and even the authors of Dark Wing interpret that this place has a cycle of day and night with stars in the night sky.

 

[Hasty12345]

Hades is vampire no sun

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

To be honest I don't remember that it was mentioned that the Elysion is in another dimension, I only remember that it is said that it is a world (but this word is absurdly vague), I even remember that it was mentioned that they could reach this place crossing the Acheron river and the Lethe river (unless by Lethe river they mean the surperdimension). Maybe this place is in that galaxy, something like a world or planet in that place, because I remember that in Saint Seiya the Elysion is perfectly illuminated, so it could be assumed that there is a star illuminating that place, and even the authors of Dark Wing interpret that this place has a cycle of day and night with stars in the night sky.

I see, yeah that makes sense.

I don't remember any quotes about it being a different dimension in the manga either but some users have told me it's described in guidebooks so I went with it, but if that was just misinformation or a misinterpretation maybe.

 

[Danny33wise]

Okay off topic, i have been checking saint seiya speed feats recently and i have been confused about which is obviously (shura) speed feat where he exceed the initial expansion of the universe

But in the Japanese translation it only said this:

Shura: The expansion rate of the primordial universe has already been exceeded.

Shura: Even if the law of causality of the light is destroyed, there is still grace

Shura: Accelerate my holy sword

So what i want to know is if it is the same thing or a mistake

 

[AlexZiggy]

It is correct, Shura did shatter causality.
Unfortunately I don't think you can quantify that.

 

[Hasty12345]

Okay off topic, i have been checking saint seiya speed feats recently and i have been confused about which is obviously (shura) speed feat where he exceed the initial expansion of the universe

But in the Japanese translation it only said this:

Shura: The expansion rate of the primordial universe has already been exceeded.

Shura: Even if the law of causality of the light is destroyed, there is still grace

Shura: Accelerate my holy sword

So what i want to know is if it is the same thing or a mistake

The translation used simplified what the Japanese was saying. They’re the same thing.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I don't know if it applies to their speed but the best statement for any sort of speed for the Gold Saints is the Gemini, it's said that Galaxian Explosion disperses it's targets pieces across or to the ends of the universe, and this was even confirmed to not be a hyperbole like it may sound by Odysseus.

 

[Hasty12345]

I don't know if it applies to their speed but the best statement for any sort of speed for the Gold Saints is the Gemini, it's said that Galaxian Explosion disperses it's targets pieces across or to the ends of the universe, and this was even confirmed to not be a hyperbole like it may sound by Odysseus.

Ahhh yes, the Gemini temple is the “whole universe” as Ody’s corpse was dispersed all over.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Ahhh yes, the Gemini temple is the “whole universe” as Ody’s corpse was dispersed all over.

Unless I'm just dense and it's a joke, they never meant the Gemini Temple as the universe, Odysseus's pieces were sent into out of the atmosphere and to an unknown distance into space (Cain notes how his pieces fell from space), and then Odysseus says that he was never dispersed that far into the universe because of his ability as a medic (referring to stay being able to stay conscious as tiny pieces and just his dismembered torso) and he managed to stop his dispersal and return.

 

[Hasty12345]

Unless I'm just dense and it's a joke, they never meant the Gemini Temple as the universe, Odysseus's pieces were sent into out of the atmosphere and to an unknown distance into space (Cain notes how his pieces fell from space), and then Odysseus says that he was never dispersed that far into the universe because of his ability as a medic (referring to stay being able to stay conscious as tiny pieces and just his dismembered torso) and he managed to stop his dispersal and return.

It was a joke

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

My bad

 

[Hasty12345]

My bad

Lots of people downplay really basic statements and feats in SS using brain dead logic.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Lots of people downplay really basic statements and feats in SS using brain dead logic.

Unfortunately. I remember many years ago before the newest feats in ND such as Athena's power causing the collapse of the universe (even if it is a chain reaction of time travel, the Pope thought they could affect the real universe with their own power), on the Spanish speaking forums even users who really read the manga (because honestly on the English speaking sites most of the nonsense people say just comes from them trying to give their interpretation of a story they haven't read or understand the broader context of) would say some dumb shit like everything is a hyperbole because nothing destroys anything and that apparently Okada and Toei completely misinterpreted Kurumada's intent by putting real feats on the level of the "hyperbole" statements he wrote, but at least that nonsense has died down since then due to the feats in ND and Saintia Sho that confirm these statements were never intended as hyperbole.

Even earlier in that fight, Cain blew himself and Odysseus across multiple planets from the force of opening the Another Dimension.

Galaxian Explosion>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the force of Another Dimension being opened.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

A topic I've been wondering about, since there seems to be some room for different interpretations based on what certain translators choose to put, or what the context may describe.

Does the lake that forms Chronos (Next Dimension) really contain the nebula of the multiverse as the wiki currently describes, or just the universe?

As we know, various translators have translated the description of the Nebulas of Chronos' body as either the "macrocosmo" or "universe" (I see the updated translations and more of them indicate the latter though).

An English/Spanish reading of "macrocosmo" on it's own could be taken to describe something greater than just their universe, or it could also just be a fancy way of describing the universe too.

In the original, it seems that Hecate says 大宇宙, which literally just means "Great Universe." This simply sounds like to just the universe.

This phrase was used in the introduction of the story and its cosmology too, when Marin explained that everything in this 大宇宙 "Great Universe" is made of atoms. A contextual usage like this seems to make it pretty straightforward that it just refers to the universe.

There was also a part where Chronos mentioned that his various nebula also could lead to a different past or future that could mean it has different universes/timelines, but that sounds like it could just mean a different era of the universe's history, and if Athena even used one of those Nebulas to just go to a past era of the universe.



Although even the best translator for Next Dimension recently said that the Nebula in Chronos body explicitly weren't made as a reference to parallel universes and simply the past/future, so it probably didn't refer to that.

Does anyone else remember any other citations of a phrase like 大宇宙 in Kurumada's work to confirm if it means just the universe like the scene with Marin and some context in the scene with Chronos and Athena indicates, or it really means the multiverse, because otherwise it seems to be the information on Chronos' page on this wiki might be a complete mistake.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

why the golden knights is 2-c? Is there anything behind this? why the profiles of the spin-off characters is not separate?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I asked native speakers on this long ago they told me it's about context the series brings in story that makes the word since the Kanji that are using have double meanings and can change with context. Kurumada basically saud screw being being direct. " instead I'm going to be vague asf, open ended, and ipen to interpretation. It can be whatever you want it to be."@SSJGeminiJJ

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

why the golden knights is 2-c? Is there anything behind this? why the profiles of the spin-off characters is not separate?

I'm making an updated canonicity blog. G will have separate profiles after it's done. Anime will become "toeiverse" after that too