Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Cool, the LC saints have a different method of sealing wow man, that's almost as crazy as 2 different Saga's having different AP.

No, it is a basic concept that is different between both works, even when Kurumada explained in detail the concept of the Specters in the original manga and Taizen, and even introduces it that way in Next Dimension.

 

[Hasty12345]

It's a difference in sealing and reviving techniques, literally that's it.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It's a difference in sealing and reviving techniques, literally that's it.

No, it's a completely different concept, that's why the Specters even have a different appearance and name in the different eras, because they are not sealed souls or reincarnations, they are just humans chosen to carry an evil star and surplice.

 

[Hasty12345]

How Hades' chooses create an army is up to the Hades, it's not hard to understand. How the Saints deal with said army also.... depends on the Saints, again, not hard to understand.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

How Hades' chooses create an army is up to the Hades, it's not hard to understand. How the Saints deal with said army also.... depends on the Saints, again, not hard to understand.

No, this depends on how they describe this basic concept in the series, and in this case it is clearly explained in detail how the Specters are chosen in Kurumada's work, and the way the gods choose their warriors is one of the most basic concepts of this franchise, which is completely different in Kurumada's work and in Shiori's work. It is not difficult to understand that each author writes his story as he wants and is free to do so, since it is a different universe from Kurumada's universe.

The concept of multiverse was created for this, so that the authors were free to write their own universe as they wanted, even if it contradicts in some way what is established in the universe of Kurumada, who also writes his universe ignoring what is described in most of these works. And fans just have to learn to separate Kurumada's work from the work of the other authors.

 

[Sage_God_Slayer]

This might be offtopic but here's what I got from the new Requiem chapter.

From the looks of it the 10th sense could be the equivalent of the Gods' Big Will as this chapter calls it the Absolute Divine Consciousness that lies beyond Nothingness (the 9th sense) or something along those lines.

And Shura has it now due to becoming Ashura/Anti God because as Brontes stated in this chapter Shura transcended the concept of humanity meaning while humans can't become Gods in SS, Shura was able to attain this level due to bypassing being a human altogether, becoming something akin to God, which Shura throws back at Brontes as he is the same, hinting again like Seiya was earlier that Brontes is someone they know.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think Brontes is Miho, it’s the only logical explanation

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I think Brontes is Miho, it’s the only logical explanation

This would be too interesting for an Okada manga.

What does the 10th sense do ?

It's Okada, so he doesn't provide any really interesting description for a concept he invented for his manga. It's another generic power up and is only described as a power beyond the void (the 9th sense), an absolute divine consciousness, but Shura still doesn't awaken a God Cloth with this and seems to have died or destroyed his consciousness and personality after activating this.

 

[Hasty12345]

Oops, your Okada hate boner is showing again, you should really put it away so you don’t come across as a negative Nancy to everyone who reads your comments

 

[Hasty12345]

Also, him not awakening a god cloth is useless, 9th sense users don’t even need a cloth.

the god cloths are used by 7th sense users to match gods, even Hades wears a surplice, Athena wears a cloth and Poseidon wears a scale because their sacred armour is sealed away.

Shura doesn’t need a god cloth.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Oops, your Okada hate boner is showing again, you should really put it away so you don’t come across as a negative Nancy to everyone who reads your comments

It's just that he's a pretty bad author, the guy seems to write the first thing that comes to his mind, even if this is completely ridiculous for the Saint Seiya universe, and the worst thing is that he doesn't even try to explain the new concepts he introduces for his universe.

When Kurumada introduces the concept of the 8th sense in his manga, the ultimate sense in the main universe, he describes this sense in detail, as a sense that even grants the power to transcend death and exists beyond the mortal life cycle, and relates this sense to the concept of Buddhist enlightenment. Okada does none of this, even Shiori took the trouble to explain the concepts he changed or the new concepts she introduces in The Lost Canvas, even the writer of Dark Wing (Shinshū Ueda) took the trouble to explain the concept of the Specters even though it follows the same concept that was presented in the original manga.

Also, him not awakening a god cloth is useless, 9th sense users don’t even need a cloth.

the god cloths are used by 7th sense users to match gods, even Hades wears a surplice, Athena wears a cloth and Poseidon wears a scale because their sacred armour is sealed away.

Shura doesn’t need a god cloth.

The Cloth has always been something important to the Saints, and they need a Cloth to use its full potential, this was mentioned by Ikki in the Hades Arc of the original manga, and it is also described in Next Dimension that the Cloth grants power to its user. The Pegasus Cloth gave Tenma the power to fight Odysseus, the most powerful Saint in the franchise.

When a Saint raises his cosmos to the maximum level, a Cloth that has the blood of a god changes into a God Cloth, acquiring this form to represent the level that the Saint's cosmos reached at that moment. If Shura reaches the power of a god, the armor must change to a God Cloth, because the Capricorn armor has the blood of Athena.

 

[Hasty12345]

It's just that he's a pretty bad author, the guy seems to write the first thing that comes to his mind, even if this is completely ridiculous for the Saint Seiya universe, and the worst thing is that he doesn't even try to explain the new concepts he introduces for his universe.

When Kurumada introduces the concept of the 8th sense in his manga, the ultimate sense in the main universe, he describes this sense in detail, as a sense that even grants the power to transcend death and exists beyond the mortal life cycle, and relates this sense to the concept of Buddhist enlightenment. Okada does none of this, even Shiori took the trouble to explain the concepts he changed or the new concepts she introduces in The Lost Canvas, even the writer of Dark Wing (Shinshū Ueda) took the trouble to explain the concept of the Specters even though it follows the same concept that was presented in the original manga.

He does explain the 9th sense in GA, Aiolia explains in mid fight with Ikki. And the first thing Aiolos does with the 9th sense is void manipulation. I genuinely think you just don’t read the manga or you’re reading very poor translations.

And the 8th sense is not the ultimate sense in classic, it has and always will be the Divine Will. Which, I kind of think it’s funny how you mention Shura has lost his sense of self in the form of his personality being destroyed, you could say once he gets a “will” of his own in this state he’ll be able to start imposing it on others, just like the gods in classic do with their divine will.

honestly, if Okada sets up the absolute divine consciousness to be the first step to awakening the divine will, it would make perfect sense with what the senses represent as a whole.

the first 8 senses involve evolving yourself as a human, becoming an enlightened being capable of controlling your mortal soul. The 9th sense requires you abandon your humanity and embrace nothingness which then allows you to transcend your humanity, immortalising your soul and becoming a god.

honestly, this sounds like something Kurumada planned out when writing classic.

 

[Hasty12345]

Did you miss the part where Shura is only a Saint in title only? He’s literally stayed to transcend humanity bro, how can you say all that bs and act like it applies to Shura atm?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

He does explain the 9th sense in GA, Aiolia explains in mid fight with Ikki. And the first thing Aiolos does with the 9th sense is void manipulation. I genuinely think you just don’t read the manga or you’re reading very poor translations.

And the 8th sense is not the ultimate sense in classic, it has and always will be the Divine Will. Which, I kind of think it’s funny how you mention Shura has lost his sense of self in the form of his personality being destroyed, you could say once he gets a “will” of his own in this state he’ll be able to start imposing it on others, just like the gods in classic do with their divine will.

honestly, if Okada sets up the absolute divine consciousness to be the first step to awakening the divine will, it would make perfect sense with what the senses represent as a whole.

the first 8 senses involve evolving yourself as a human, becoming an enlightened being capable of controlling your mortal soul. The 9th sense requires you abandon your humanity and embrace nothingness which then allows you to transcend your humanity, immortalising your soul and becoming a god.

honestly, this sounds like something Kurumada planned out when writing classic.

That's not an explanation, because Okada doesn't even bother to explain what the void power of the 9th Sense is, it's just presented as a generic power up with power greater than an Athena Exclamation (with the pathetic description of this manga). A pathetic power for a God Saint in the original manga.

The concept of divine will is never mentioned that way in the original manga, the divine will is not a level or some nonsense like that, gods are powerful because they are gods and they are born as gods, they don't awaken anything to gain their power. The concept of the senses was always limited to humans, and Athena because she is a goddess reincarnates as a human, and for Kurumada the maximum sense is the 8th Sense, the sense that allows the Saints to transcend death and human limitations, reaching a new level of existence that not even the gods can reach.

The gods do not awaken any divine will, this was never mentioned in the manga, and was only mentioned in the Hypermyth, a work that never had any importance for Kurumada's manga. In the manga even Shaka had to reveal the secret of the 8th Sense to Athena so that she could awaken that sense. The 8th Sense is a power that not even the gods possess, even Asclepius who probably fully masters this sense has powers that Athena does not have, for example he can resurrect the dead from the Underworld and see the future, past and present, something similar to the Gold Saints now exist in a completely different plane of existence, even after destroying their body and soul, and can move freely through space and time.

Kurumada didn't plan any of this, and he doesn't even mention it in his manga, nor does he mention it in any of his interviews about the future of the series. This is clearly a nonsense that Okada invented.

Did you miss the part where Shura is only a Saint in title only? He’s literally stayed to transcend humanity bro, how can you say all that bs and act like it applies to Shura atm?

Shura is still wearing a Gold Cloth, an armor that did not transform into a God Cloth even though it has the blood of Athena.

 

[Hasty12345]

Sorry for the spam, but having said all that stuff about the senses, I believe it would be thematically incorrect for Seiya to awaken his 9th sense.

Seiya’s power is related to the hope of humans and being able to unusually create miracles due to this. Abandoning his humanity to attain the 9th sense or beyond would be bad writing and kind of spit in the face of what Seiya represents as a Saint.

If Okada takes this action I do genuinely believe it would show a lack of understanding of Seiya’s character. Unless something happens that would make it logical for Seiya to do so.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Sorry for the spam, but having said all that stuff about the senses, I believe it would be thematically incorrect for Seiya to awaken his 9th sense.

Seiya’s power is related to the hope of humans and being able to unusually create miracles due to this. Abandoning his humanity to attain the 9th sense or beyond would be bad writing and kind of spit in the face of what Seiya represents as a Saint.

If Okada takes this action I do genuinely believe it would show a lack of understanding of Seiya’s character. Unless something happens that would make it logical for Seiya to do so.

In this manga Seiya will probably awaken the 9th Sense, after all it is just a simple power up, as described in the previous chapter, Shura awakens the 9th Sense to reach ftl speed.

Shura only abandoned his humanity, because he mixed his existence with a version of another world (King Arthur), something that Brontes describes as an anomaly and that is why he mentions that Shura abandoned his humanity. This does not mean that Shura really ceased to be a human or to change anything in his mind and emotions that make him human. Even the Gold Saints who destroyed themselves body and soul, and now exist as super spirits on a different plane of existence, abandoned more of their humanity than Shura himself.

It is more than demonstrated that Okada does not understand Kurumada's work, so this would not change anything.

 

[StekFence]

Shura is only a Saint in title only?

 

[Hasty12345]

In this manga Seiya will probably awaken the 9th Sense, after all it is just a simple power up, as described in the previous chapter, Shura awakens the 9th Sense to reach ftl speed.

Shura only abandoned his humanity, because he mixed his existence with a version of another world (King Arthur), something that Brontes describes as an anomaly and that is why he mentions that Shura abandoned his humanity. This does not mean that Shura really ceased to be a human or to change anything in his mind and emotions that make him human. Even the Gold Saints who destroyed themselves body and soul, and now exist as super spirits on a different plane of existence, abandoned more of their humanity than Shura himself.

It is more than demonstrated that Okada does not understand Kurumada's work, so this would not change anything.

Wow, you really haven’t read GA huh

 

[StekFence]

So when is Shura getting that spicy 10th sense key

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Wow, you really haven’t read GA huh

Of course I read it, I even read that manga in its original language, but Okada is a lousy writer who changes his ideas (almost as much as he changes the character designs) and writes the first thing that comes to his mind, that's why the 9th sense is a generic power up in Requiem. The only one who seems to have never read Kurumada's work (original manga, final edition, destiny, zero and origin) is you.

So when is Shura getting that spicy 10th sense key

First we need to create a profile for this version of Shura of other universe .

 

[Hasty12345]

First we need to create a profile for this version of Shura of other universe .

He already has a key

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

He already has a key

It is because Shura's profile is mixing two completely different versions of the character, which is against the Wiki rules that do not use composite versions of characters for profiles. That's why we need to create a separate profile for this version of the character.

Although it would probably be better to rename the page to Shura (Assassin/Requiem), because the profile seems to be based almost 100% on this version of the character, and create a new profile for the Shura of the main universe.

 

[Hasty12345]

Ahh I see, I thought the profile was different.

It should be like this profile:

Goku Black (DBS Anime)

Zamasu (ザマス?) was once the Supreme Kai apprentice under Gowasu of Universe 10, who developed a loathing for mortals as he witnessed their actions across the universe, leading him to embark on a crusade against mortals after stealing the body of Son Goku using the Super Dragon Balls, gaining the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Where clicking on the GA key should change the whole page not just the picture.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yes, similar to that page where each version of Zamasu/Black Goku has its own profile.

Another example is the page of Seiya where his versions of Omega and Legend of Sanctuary have separate profiles from his main universe version.

Pegasus Seiya

Seiya (星矢, Seiya), also known as Pegasus Seiya (天馬星座の星矢, Pegasasu no Seiya), is the titular Main Character of the Saint Seiya Manga and Anime series written and illustrated by Masami Kurumada. He is one of the Goddess Athena's eighty-eight mythical warriors known as Saints, who have served their...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Hasty12345]

Yeah mb, I thought Shura's profile was already like that.

And it should. However, it's worth noting that he is the Shura from G and gained all the memories of classic, so he kind of already is a composite Shura, I don't think anything will change tbh.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yeah mb, I thought Shura's profile was already like that.

And it should. However, it's worth noting that he is the Shura from G and gained all the memories of classic, so he kind of already is a composite Shura, I don't think anything will change tbh.

Yes, Shura's new page wouldn't change anything, mainly because Shura's Wiki profile seems to describe all the abilities of this version of Shura. So I propose only to rename the page as Capricorn Shura (Episode.G Assassin/Requiem), update the character description to explain the origin of this version of Shura, add his new powers and abilities, and remove the images of Shura from the main universe, I even cleaned up an image of Shura in Requiem for the page.

And the profile to create would be for the version of Shura that is not an exile from time and space (or the version of Shura from the main universe).

 

[Rabbit2002]

This verse need a blog explain about cosmoslogy and terminal, blogs that summarize the powers of the senses like this https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Physiology_(Devil_May_Cry)

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes, Shura's new page wouldn't change anything, mainly because Shura's Wiki profile seems to describe all the abilities of this version of Shura. So I propose only to rename the page as Capricorn Shura (Episode.G Assassin/Requiem), update the character description to explain the origin of this version of Shura, add his new powers and abilities, and remove the images of Shura from the main universe, I even cleaned up an image of Shura in Requiem for the page.

And the profile to create would be for the version of Shura that is not an exile from time and space (or the version of Shura from the main universe).

Yeah I agree with that. This page can probably be updated to GA/GR Shura, we'll add a 9th sense key, the holy sword abilities. But as I said, he'd technically keep the classic stuff as he remembers those events.

10th sense shouldn't be touched until the end of series IMO, I think this chapter was a tiny hint as to what's to come, and besides, we only have a name for it and Shura needed Seiya and Amaterasu's help to reach it, so it's an amped state, not a natural one.

We can remove some of the keys that are only relevant to classic and have a G/GA/GR keys (we can work out tiers later but lets just agree on page format for now).

Classic Shura will still have a G key as G is still accepted as the canonical prequel to classic (this will need a CRT to change), but will not include GA/GR stuff obviously.

 

[Hasty12345]

This verse need a blog explain about cosmoslogy and terminal, blogs that summarize the powers of the senses like this https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Physiology_(Devil_May_Cry)

It's being worked on

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This verse need a blog explain about cosmoslogy and terminal, blogs that summarize the powers of the senses like this https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Physiology_(Devil_May_Cry)

Being worked on. Just waiting for the new series to develop some more because the last 2 chapters have provided absolutely incredible cosmology building feats. That could yield 1-A results

Verse specific power page called "Cosmo" is unfortunately dependent on a cosmology blog

Which may or may not require an updated canoncity blog

Which will then require a debunk blog because I know there is a group of people who have massive headcanons and hate boners against each author
-_-

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Which may or may not require an updated canoncity blog

We need an updated canocity blog, to group and order the series that are part of each universe, and eliminate some series and guides that have nothing to do with the canon of the different universes.

Which will then require a debunk blog because I know there is a group of people who have massive headcanons and hate boners against each author

Like that nonsense about the big will awakening gods to acquire their powers, which does not exist in the original manga and is only mentioned in Hypermtyh (a non-canon work, it is even strange that in 2021 there are still people using information from that work for the franchise), and multiversal gods that does not exist in the franchise.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Exhibit A of my point

But noted

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Question. Why does Hades have a description of an ability from the novel Gigantomachy on his page.

Hades (Saint Seiya)

Hades, Underworld Emperor (冥王ハーデス; meiö hadesu; Κόλαση Αυτοκράτορας Άδης) is the Greek God of the Dead and Lord of the Underworld, as seen in the Saint Seiya Franchise. Alongside his brothers Zeus and Poseidon, he is one of the Three Sacred Emperors. They stand above the other Olympians and are...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Statistics Reduction and Heat Manipulation (By being in the presence of a God. The six senses are rendered unusable and denied).

The novel Gigantomachy is not part of the main universe (even contradicts the original manga, because the armors of the Bronze Saints obtain the blood of Athena in this novel, an event that only happens in the Hades Arc when Shion gives them the blood of the goddess that makes the armors evolve, and the author himself mentions that he did not write this novel to be part of the canon), and the wiki does not use composite versions of the characters.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Not composite, cross scaling is validable. We been over this hundred of times...

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Not composite, cross scaling is validable. We been over this hundred of times...

The cross scaling only applies to its own universe, not to the rest, and we only use it for the power and speed (physical statistics) of the characters, not for the abilities of the characters that can have different abilities in the universes, for example the Apollo of Overture is much more powerful than the Apollo of the main universe (where he is not stronger than Athena, Hades, Poseidon and Zeus).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

My cosmology blog will help explain why it's valid. Once I'm finished

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

My cosmology blog will help explain why it's valid. Once I'm finished

The cosmology of the verse is not important, because they are different versions of these characters in the different universes, even some of these gods are very different, for example Ares in Sho and TLC or Artemis in Overture and ND. This is not unlike Saints like Seiya, who have a different profile for each version of the character.

Hades' abilities should be those that the character showed in his universe. And the main universe consists of Manga Original, Final Edition, Next Dimension, Zero, Origin, Destiny, Episode.G, Saintia Sho and Golden Age.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Yet GA contradicts what you say

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yet GA contradicts what you say

GA confirms what I said, where each universe has different versions of Athena, and an Athena like Yoshino and Tomoe have a power (name it as "dance") that Saori does not have. There is also the Dark Wing universe, where Athena has a power that the other Athena's in the franchise do not have, the purifying flames that can erase a being from existence. The rest of the franchise also confirms this with the different versions of the same god in the different universes, for example Ares in TLC and Sho, Artemis in ND and Overture, Apollo in ND and Overture, Typhon in TLC, Episode.G and Gigantomachy, Enceladus in TLC and Gigantomachy (also in the TLC universe the Gigas are immortal gods, in the Gigantomachy universe they are not immortal and only Typhon was an immortal god), etc.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

1.) As ND explains there can only be 1 fully awakened Athena. No this doesn't contradict me as I will explain more below.

2.) Athena chose to reincarnate as a human. She isn't picking vessels or creating vessels. Thus choosing to live amongst them that also means she fractured and sundered her existence to create multiple incarnations BUT they are all still Athena. She is a divine will stretched across the multiverse. Think of it as a hive mind. My cosmology blog will go more into detail about this. This information comes from the Taizen, hypermyth, light novels and the classic series.

3.) There cannot CANNOT be 2 of the same beings in a single timeline. Yet, Tomoe (who isn't even an awakened Athena), Yoshino (again not awakened) existed in the same universe without consequence. Infact Yoshino existed for years alongside Soari Athena. Thus proving my point further THEIR ALL THE SAME ATHENA not separate different ones.

4.) Zeus has literally 5 statements proving he us a singular existence. You can't get any more explicitly than those 5 statements.

5.) The Underworld is literally stated to be connected to the multiverse. Again, VERY EXPLICIT. it's a direct statement. It's not vague, its not hyperbole, it's not any literally device. You can't make any excuse with how DIRECT it is.

6.) Anime is wholly a different timeline in the multiverse, but It still cross scales, but more caution is needed.

So take your headcanon and nonsense somewhere else.

That's all I'm going to say I will not continue this conversation we had hundreds of times. It's disgusting at how much direct statements are ignored for the sake of headcanon arguments that only work if you purposely twist the context.

My blogs will do the explaining for me. But it will take me sometime to create