Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[TheUnshakableOne]

if you want an example of how Shaka vs Saga would go all you have to do is look at Shaka vs Camus, Saga, and Shura. Saga was powerless to Tenbu Horin. Though this is pure hax and not AP oriented.

I know its vague, but there is evidence stemming from the feats that specters have in other parts of the series that suggest Tenma Kofuku may have actually kill Shura, Camus, and Saga but due to their powers as specter they regenerated. That was an eyes closed Shaka.

For example, When he used Tenma Kofuku they stopped sensing their Cosmo. Even Specter Shion was in shock by it. Usually when you stop sensing ones cosmo even if tis a specter who is supposed to be dead. usually that means their perma gone unless they regen.

my memory is iffy but is there any feats of Saints having stealth mastery via surpressing their cosmo? not through other haxed means?

Tbh the weaker Gold Saints do have a hax advantage over those that are more powerful than them

Pisces with their poison

Capricorn with their Ice or time manipulation

Cancers with their soul hax that ignores resistance and their BFR

Aries Saints with their psychic abilities.

Virgos are pure hax and always busted and their not really "weak" lmao

 

[StekFence]

Saints having stealth mastery via surpressing their cosmo?

I think Haruto

 

[StekFence]

Capricorn with their Ice or time manipulation

Hmmm

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Shura and Aldy are pretty lack luster in the hax deparatment really when compared to other gold saints

Shura has excalibur supposed to cut through anything but its been shown to have its limits...

Aldy is just all muscle pure beef.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Rewatched saint seiya on netflix and goddamn is it just me or is cancer and aprodite constantly getting shit on like wtf,

btw what is your tier list for strongest to weakest gold saint?

Oh and shaina is pretty waifu ngl

In the original manga it is different and Deathmask was one of the Gold Saints that caused the most problems to the Bronze Saints in the Sanctuary Arc, even Shiryu needed help from Athena not to be defeated with a single attack of Cancer.

Top tier
Saga
Kanon
Shaka
Dohko
Shion

High Tier
Aiolos
Aolia
Milo

High-Mid Tier
Mu
Aldebaran

Mid Tier
Deathmask
Aphro

Low Tier
Shura
Camus

Camus is the weakest of all Gold Saints, because he cannot reach absolute zero, therefore he cannot defeat any Gold Saint with his attacks.

yea i haven't seen any of the new stuff stopped watching after the real hades appeared iirc, what tier would the 3 judges of hell be?

Weaker than an elite Gold Saint, even Kanon defeated Rada, the strongest leader of the Underworld, without much trouble, and only a combined attack by the leaders could defeat Kanon. A leader like Rada is probably as strong as a high-level Gold Saint, Shun and Hyoga describe that his power is out of the ordinary even among Gold Saints, so he is stronger than an average Gold Saint.

with the original series (the classic) only

High Tier
The Gemini's, Aiolos, Aiolia, Closed eye shaka

Saga is described as the strongest by Kurumada, even Aiolos says that Saga is stronger than him.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

yet there is like 4 gold saints that have statements of "i am the strongest" saga just has the most but his feats are lack luster comapred to shaka.

you could argue that Saga is stronger AP wise, but hed lose in a hax battle.

Though you could argue that Closed Eye Shaka 1-shotted Saga alongside 2 otehr Gold Saints as well with a pure AP attack. Which does have some evidence to a degree supporting it

tahts all i will say on the matter.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Shura and Aldy are pretty lack luster in the hax deparatment really when compared to other gold saints

Shura has excalibur supposed to cut through anything but its been shown to have its limits...

Aldy is just all muscle pure beef.

Shura is the only purely physical Gold Saint, and his technique is the easiest to stop and dodge among the techniques of the Gold Saints. The Excalibur has never been seen to cut or damage a Gold Cloth, even how much damage it could cause to a Gold Saint or an opponent of his level with stronger armor than a Bronze Cloth is unknown.

Aldebaran has some mental abilities, he can even use illusions, he used an illusion to make believe that Sorrento cut off his head.

yet there is like 4 gold saints that have statements of "i am the strongest" saga just has the most but his feats are lack luster comapred to shaka.

you could argue that Saga is stronger AP wise, but hed lose in a hax battle.

Though you could argue that Closed Eye Shaka 1-shotted Saga alongside 2 otehr Gold Saints as well with a pure AP attack. Which does have some evidence to a degree supporting it

tahts all i will say on the matter.

Saga is mentioned as the strongest on more than one occasion and by different characters (including Gold Saints like Milo). In addition, Saga is one of the Gold Saints with more and better feats in the manga.

Saga, Kanon and Shaka are the strongest Gold Saints of their generation.

Shaka never killed Saga, Camus and Shura, they were able to evade or survive that attack, and then hid their presence to pass the Temple of Leo and not fight with Aiolia.

This is a list of all the mentions about the power of the Gold Saints in the Original Manga and Next Dimension. The translation is by Shady, the best translator of the franchise.

¿Quién dijo qué?

A lo largo del manga original, los Santos han emitido frases haciendo referencia a los poderes y cualidades especiales de sus pares. A continuación, una recopilación de estos dichos, los cuales nos ayudarán a comprender mejor los niveles de ciertos personajes.

www.ssnextdimension.com

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I know its vague, but there is evidence stemming from the feats that specters have in other parts of the series that suggest Tenma Kofuku may have actually kill Shura, Camus, and Saga but due to their powers as specter they regenerated. That was an eyes closed Shaka.

Specters have no regeneration, they come back to life because Hades resurrects them, and Hades does not resurrect any of his Specters because they become useless when the Masei (Evil Star) is sealed in the rosary. The Saints that Hades resurrects do not have that power, even they all die with a single attack and disappear as dust after that. Shaka never killed Saga, Camus and Shura in the Temple of Cancer.

Shiryu also says that Shion and Dohko's cosmos disappeared after they both collided their attacks, but this does not mean that they died at that moment and resurrected later.

my memory is iffy but is there any feats of Saints having stealth mastery via surpressing their cosmo? not through other haxed means?

The Saints can completely hide their cosmos, even some like Shaka, Kanon, Mu and Ikki showed that they can become completely invisible to their opponents, Kanon even launched a mental attack on Lune without him noticing his precense.

Tbh the weaker Gold Saints do have a hax advantage over those that are more powerful than them

Pisces with their poison

Capricorn with their Ice or time manipulation

Cancers with their soul hax that ignores resistance and their BFR

Aries Saints with their psychic abilities.

Virgos are pure hax and always busted and their not really "weak" lmao

Capricorn has no ice attacks or time manipulation (only Requiem's version, who has time manipulation by using Alice's Vorpal Sword), or do you mean Aquarius, which also has no time manipulation (only Tokisada), and ice attacks are useless against stronger opponents. The ice attacks need a specific temperature to cause lethal damage to stronger opponents. For example a Gold Saint can only be defeated by an attack with the temperature of absolute zero and a god like Thanatos can only be defeated by a temperature hundreds of times colder than absolute zero.

 

[Loyd]

i know they were pretending to be evil to reach athena but were they really trying to kill shaka? feels like whoever lands thr hax first wins well in saga case atleast iirc shaka said if he got bfrd to anoter dimension again he would be trouble.

 

[Hasty12345]

if Camus' ice can't hurt a Gold Saint why didn't Mu just stand there and ignore him smh

Not being able to freeze the cloth =/= can't hurt the user of said cloth

This is so fken basic the fact it has to be said is ridiculous.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

if Camus' ice can't hurt a Gold Saint why didn't Mu just stand there and ignore him smh

Not being able to freeze the cloth =/= can't hurt the user of said cloth

This is so fken basic the fact it has to be said is ridiculous.

Because that attack can distract him or stop him for a few seconds, a time that Saga could take advantage of to kill Mu.

To kill a Gold Saint, the opponent has to break through the protection of the Gold Cloth, even Hyoga's attacks (with a cosmos comparable to a Gold Saint) were unable to kill Milo (even when he attacked their star points), because he did not reach absolute zero in that fight.

The protection of a Gold Cloth to ice attacks is absolute, and only absolute zero can break through that protection, if a Saint using ice attacks does not reach absolute zero it is impossible for him to kill a Gold Saint.

 

[Hasty12345]

you're like a closed minded broken record.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Because that's what Kurumada's manga says, the Gold Saints can withstand any cold temperature down to absolute zero because of the Gold Cloth that protects their body.

Even Camus says that Hyoga with a cold air of his level, cannot defeat him thanks to the Gold Cloth that protects his body, and to defeat him, Hyoga needs a cold air with a temperature of absolute zero.

Spoiler

In addition, an elite Gold Saint like Gestalt can withstand even the freezing attacks of Hyoga, who masters absolute zero and completely freezes a Gold Cloth at that moment.

Spoiler

Average Gold Saint needs a temperature of absolute zero to be defeated thanks to the protection of his Gold Cloth and Elite Gold Saint needs a temperature colder than absolute zero to be defeated.

 

[StekFence]

Average Gold Saint needs a temperature of absolute zero to be defeated thanks to the protection of his Gold Cloth

It should be, the weakest golds Saints need Ae to be defeated, because they also wear gold cloths.

 

[Hasty12345]

Is it ever stated in classic that the Olympians were the strongest Gods? (with he exception of Chronos ofc)?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Is it ever stated in classic that the Olympians were the strongest Gods? (with he exception of Chronos ofc)?

Thanatos says that the Olympians are the highest gods.

Only Chronos in Next Dimension is described as a higher god than them, because Artemis says he is a god who transcends the Olympians.

 

[Hasty12345]

Thanatos says that the Olympians are the highest gods.

scan?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

scan?

 

[Hasty12345]

Hmm, I was hoping it was more concrete, but thank you

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Although, on second thought, that description of transcending for Chronos may not indicate that he is superior to them and may only indicate that he is not part of the Olympians and therefore transcends them.

After all, Pandora describes Asclepius as a being that even transcends Hades and Athena, and this does not indicate that he is stronger than the gods.

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes, but Chronos has far more context that indicates the use of the word differs for the 2 situations.

"transcending" can mean many many things, it's not a fixed term.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yes, but Chronos has far more context that indicates the use of the word differs for the 2 situations.

"transcending" can mean many many things, it's not a fixed term.

Yes, that's why I say that the meaning of the word is a bit vague, and it can mean many things, for example that he is a higher god than them or just a description that this god is not part of the Olympians.

 

[Hasty12345]

The statements by itself doesn't mean much, but the context and secondary leads to the conclusion he is much much superior to the Olympians

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The statements by itself doesn't mean much, but the context and secondary leads to the conclusion he is much much superior to the Olympians

This depends, since Chronos has very few feats in Next Dimension. The best feat of this god is damaging Athena's armor, although we don't know if the goddess uses all her power at that moment (Athena is characterized as an idiot like Shun and doesn't fight with all her power against her enemies from the beginning).

We know that his power can allow time travel and travel to other realities, a power exclusive to this god even among the gods, although the Gold Saints also seem to have this power in their astral form. But there are other gods with powers exclusive to them, such as Hades who is the only one who can resurrect and grant eternal life to mortals, a power that Athena and Poseidon do not have. There is also Asclepius who can observe all the movements of the universe, this allows him to know the future, past and present, an ability that Athena and Hades do not possess.

Finally, the physical form of this god is very different from that of other gods, although the soul of Hades also had the form of a universe when he appeared before Ikki.

 

[Hasty12345]

yes different gods have exclusive abilities.

 

[Hasty12345]

What do we know of Buddha's history in Saint Seiya? does he get an origin story of any kind?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What do we know of Buddha's history in Saint Seiya? does he get an origin story of any kind?

The most elusive God it kind of irks me -_-

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

What do we know of Buddha's history in Saint Seiya? does he get an origin story of any kind?

Almost nothing. The only thing known about Gautama Buddha (because there are several Buddhas, it is even said that Shaka is the reincarnation of a Buddha) is some description in the Virgo Saint techniques.

We only know that Gautama Buddha had knowledge of the 8th sense and awakened this sense, and could talk to Shaka even after his death, also it seems that he was not part of the natural cycle of life and death, and was not in the Underworld or any of the six worlds of reincarnation, probably he was in Nirvana.

When Shijima uses the Four Gates in the Virgo Temple it is described that these gates represent the path that Buddha followed and transcended to become an enlightened being. Buddha transcends life, death, old age and sickness, a reference to the 8th sense that allows humans to transcend the human life cycle.

When Shijima uses the Tenma Kofuku to destroy Odysseus, he mentions that the Buddha's power can destroy even the demons of the sixth heaven.

The most elusive God it kind of irks me -_-

Buddha is not a god like the Greek gods (Athena, Hades, Poseidon, etc), he is an enlightened being, in Buddhism the concept of deity is different. In the Saint Seiya franchise it is mentioned that a human cannot become a god. The only human who tried to become a god was Asclepius, and this was considered the worst crime of a human, they even erased all traces of his existence for this crime and he was trapped in the worst prison that Hades created for him.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Question, did Asclepius survive history erasure?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Question, did Asclepius survive history erasure?

It does not seem that they erased him from history or existence with some hax power, it seems that they simply destroyed his body completely, threw his soul into Tartarus so he could never return, destroyed and buried his Temple inside the Sanctuary, and forbade mentioning his name or speak of him in the Sanctuary.

The only series where a character was erased from existence is Dark Wing, where Aiolos was erased from existence with the flames of Athena used by the Capricorn Saint, even his soul, body and all traces of his existence disappeared from the world, for example Sojiro forgot about Aiolos (he remembers the words of his teacher, but does not remember who told him those words or where he heard them) and his name disappeared from Sojiro's smarthphone.

 

[StekFence]

Hey so what kind of acausality does seiya have in his 8th sense key

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Hey so what kind of acausality does seiya have in his 8th sense key

They should have type 4 bit they had acausality before the revisions into subtypes. Seiya has it because the blood of the gods ichor

 

[StekFence]

I see. Cos I’m in the Virgo vs Yhwachs thread so that was useful. Thx

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

New Chapters

Dark Wing Chapter 9 - The Awakening of the Goddess (raw chinese by all4Seiya)

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随时随地发现新鲜事！微博带你欣赏世界上每一个精彩瞬间，了解每一个幕后故事。分享你想表达的，让全世界都能听到你的心声！

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• Theseus damages the Gold Cloth of Capricorn and breaks the arms of Eito with physical force. Aries as always bullying the Gold Saints of the weaker constellations.
• Cattleya awoke as Athena and protected the people on the ship with her cosmos.
• It seems that Julius is not a Specter and Garuda Specter appears at the end of the chapter.

Epsode.G Requiem Chapter 19 - The "10th" sense

聖闘士星矢EPISODE.Gレクイエム

聖闘士星矢EPISODE.Gレクイエム by チャンピオンクロス。地上が絶望に覆われてゆく…。陥落する聖域を前に、射手座の黄金聖闘士を継承した星矢は、アテナ神殿に囚われたアテナ沙織を救出するために、最大最後の闘いに挑む!「EPISODE.G」シリーズ、衝撃の最終章が開幕!!

mangacross.jp

Script in French by Cedde

Spoiler

Chapitre 19 : Dixième sens

Page 01

Seiya : Qu’est-ce que ça veut dire ?!
Seiya : C’est quoi cette apparence ?
Seiya : Je ne la connais pas.
Seiya : Non… Le Shura que je connais…
Seiya : a revêtu une existence différente en tant qu’humain !!!
Brontès : Qu’est-ce que… cela signifie…

Pages 02-03

Brontès : Qui…
Brontès : est-il ?
Brontès : Dans cet univers infini existent une multitude de dimensions.
Brontès : Au sein de la ruine éternelle qui s'étend dans ce monde...
Brontès : Il a même vaincu son double d’un autre monde.
Brontès : Il a cherché sans relâche un moyen de changer l’avenir jusqu’à arriver ici.

Page 04

Brontès : Il a transcendé le concept d’humanité.
Brontès : C’est un monstre.
Brontès : Tu n’es déjà plus un être humain.
Brontès : Tu n’es qu’une aberration.
Shura : Il vient de comprendre ce qu’il voulait.
Shura : Mais n’est-ce pas ton cas également ?

Page 05

Shura : C’est parce que tu es dans la même situation…
Shura : que tu peux me comprendre.
Shura : Je sens que le Cosmos qui émane de toi…
Shura : est semblable au mien.
Shura : Tu masques ton apparence…
Shura : pour ne pas être découvert tandis que tu voyages dans une multitude de mondes.
Shura : Tu es devenu une autre existence qui combat sans relâche.

Page 06

Shura : Tu n’es pas un dieu.
Shura : Tu es un humain qui a acquis un pouvoir semblable à celui d’un dieu.
Seiya : Qu’est-ce qu’il vient de dire ?! Si ce qu’il raconte est vrai, alors…
Seiya : Cet homme à la force gigantesque qui s’est présenté comme un dieu…
Seiya : serait donc un humain !!!

Page 07

Brontès : Ne dis pas n’importe quoi.
Brontès : Je suis un dieu.
Brontès : Une existence qu’un esprit humain ne peut appréhender.
Brontès : Cependant, je reconnais ta force.
Brontès : Si je ne peux pas te détruire avec des attaques à distance, alors…
Brontès : je n’ai plus qu’à te frapper directement de mon pouvoir.

Pages 08-09

Brontès : Mon épée va t’infliger…
Brontès : un châtiment cyclopéen.
GOUWAN SAIKOUCHIKU (Reconstruction du bras karmique)

Page 10

GOUKEN DANZAI (Jugement de l’épée karmique)

Page 11

Kokutô : Recule, Shura !!! Tu ne peux pas en faire plus !!!
Kokutô : Cela ne concerne plus seulement tes deux bras et ta jambe gauche !!! Ton corps entier va être anéanti !!!
Kokutô : Déplace-toi dans une autre dimension !!!

Page 12

Shura : Non, pas encore.
Shura : Je n’ai pas encore utilisé tout mon pouvoir.
Shura : J’ai toujours au fond de mon cœur…
Shura : la volonté de protéger Athéna.
Shura : La flamme ne s’est pas éteinte.

Page 13

Shura : Elle brûle plus que jamais…
Seiya : Attends !! Regarde bien…
Shura : pour protéger…
Seiya : La matière qui a reconstruit les membres perdus de Shura…
Shura : La Terre…
Seiya : C’est le pouvoir de l’épée divine que j’avais empruntée ?!!
Shura : Tous ses habitants…
Seiya : Ame no Murakumo no Tsurugi !!
Shura : et mon ami.
Seiya : Dans ce cas, comme à ce moment-là*…
Seiya : il y a quelque chose que moi seul peux faire !!!

Page 14

Seiya : Même si toute mon âme devait se consumer…
Seiya : (Allez, maintenant brûle…)
Seiya : Je n’en ai rien à faire !!!
Seiya : Ô, déesse**, rien qu’une fois de plus…
Seiya : (Mon Cosmos !)
Seiya : offre à Shura la divine protection de ton épée !!!

Page 15

Ce qui se trouve au-delà du néant***…
Invocation du Dixième Sens.
La conscience divine absolue.

Pages 16-17

Ame no Murakumo no Tsurugi
Futsu no Mitama
Ame no Habakiri****

INVOCATION DES ÉPÉES DIVINES

Pages 18-19

EX KAMUI***** (les trois épées de l’âge des dieux)

Page 20

Brontès : Il a absorbé le Cosmos de son ami puis l’a amplifié…
Brontès : pour en tirer de force le pouvoir abyssal qui réside en lui !!!
Brontès : Une technique divine qui a même le potentiel de détruire jusqu’à sa propre conscience et personnalité.
Brontès : Il a partagé son Cosmos tout en sachant qu’il pouvait en mourir.
Brontès : Ces deux-là… sont unis par une confiance absolue.
Brontès : Ce sont de véritables amis.

* Référence à l'avant-dernier chapitre de GA. Si Shura a pu vaincre Zeus, c'est parce que Seiya a libéré le pouvoir de Kusanagi.
** Littéralement "dieu". Mais vu le contexte, je pense qu'il parle d'Amaterasu, la détentrice de Kusanagi dans GA.
*** Le Neuvième Sens, le pouvoir du néant.
**** Futsu no Mitama et Ame no Habaraki : épées divines de la mythologie. Pour en savoir plus :
https://www.japanese-wiki-corpus.org/literature/Futsunomitama.html
https://www.japanese-wiki-corpus.org/literature/Totsuka no Tsurugi (a sword in the Japanese Myth).html
***** Kamui, peut-être une référence aux Kamuy aïnous ? Ou simplement aux Kamui du Kurumanga.

• Okada still doesn't describe the 9th Sense in detail and now presents a 10th Sense. The writing of this story already seems like bad fanfic. The appearance of a Super Saiyan 10 in the Dragon Ball universe would make more sense than this.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Taizen and Hypermyth have long alluded without extreme detail; hence the word Alluded is very important too; to a 10th sense.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The Taizen and Hypermyth have long alluded without extreme detail; hence the word Alluded is very important too; to a 10th sense.

Taizen only alludes to the 8th sense and even the official site only describes the 8th sense. The Hypermyth which is a bad fanfic where Kurumada did not participate describes the 9th sense and only the first version of this material, because the version published in 2001 eliminated all that nonsense of the 9th sense.

 

[Rabbit2002]

What does the 10th sense do ?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Taizen only alludes to the 8th sense and even the official site only describes the 8th sense. The Hypermyth which is a bad fanfic where Kurumada did not participate describes the 9th sense and only the first version of this material, because the version published in 2001 eliminated all that nonsense of the 9th sense.

A massive portion of the fanbase might disagree with you but meh its not worth debating.

 

[Hasty12345]

A massive portion of the fanbase might disagree with you but meh its not worth debating.

What else is new

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

A massive portion of the fanbase might disagree with you but meh its not worth debating.

No, you can even ask in the Spanish, Portuguese and French forums, and everyone who knows this universe will explain to you that in the main universe and Kurumada's work there are only 8th senses. The rest is just bad fanfic, because Kurumada never introduces that into his story.

Even to think that an older version of Hypermyth in which Kurumada did not participate is a superior and more important canon than even what is described in the original manga and the author's new works is ridiculous, especially when that version was published during the Poseidon Arc, a time when Kurumada was still introducing several new concepts and ideas for the original manga in the next arc, and even a later version of that material was published eliminating some of the nonsense of the first version.

 

[Hasty12345]

appeal to popularity