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speaking of Buhddha what information do you have on the location of Nirvana?
how much do we know about it?
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Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)
- Thread starter TheUnshakableOne
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how much do we know about it?
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None, Shaka only mentions Nirvana once in the story. We can only assume that it is a world or plane of existence that transcends life and death, and even the six worlds of the cycle of reincarnation, and perhaps transcends time and space, which might explain why Shaka and the other Gold Saints could cross time and space.
This is a description of Nirvana (Nibbana) according to Buddha.
There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.
Udana VIII.1: Parinibbana (1)
Information for the study of Buddhism and Buddhist Suttas in translation and the original Pali.
buddhadust.net
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Just remember that Kurumada's manga (OM, Final Edition, Zero, Origin, Destiny, Taizen and Next Dimension) is the main and most important manga in the franchise, even Kurumada is publishing a new version (Final Edition) that solves some problems of the original manga with the new works (Origin, Zero, Destiny and Next Dimension). The rest of the works in the franchise are secondary canon, so if Kurumada describes a concept, it takes precedence over the other works.
For example, if Kurumada in Zero and Next Dimension says that Saga is stronger than Aiolos, but Okada says in Episode.G that Aiolos was stronger, Kurumada's description takes precedence over the rest of the works and Saga is officially stronger than Aiolos.
Remember also that some series like Dark Wing, The Lost Canvas and Assassin/Requiem are considered different universes in the multiverse, so these series may have some different concepts or descriptions than those shown in the main universe (Origin, Zero, Destiny, OM/Final Edition, Golden Age, Sho, ND and Episode.G). It is better not to mix concepts that are incompatible or contradict what is shown in the main universe.
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I'm gonna have go disagree and agree on some points brought up there.
Hasty12345
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Interesting you say this, just like if Kurumada, Lost Canvas and Toei all say the Athena Exclamation is universal, then Okada's "flowery" description of the same thing should also be interpreted within the confounds of what's previously established by Kurumada, i.e. GA's Athena Exclamation is the same as Classics, Lost Canvas' and Omega's.
I mean, you said it yourself...
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Assassin is a different universe, it is not Kurumada's main universe. Is a universe where even a 9th sense exists, a sense that was never mentioned in the main universe, where the ultimate sense is the 8th sense, so it is not strange that some techniques have different descriptions with respect to the main universe. As I said it is better not to mix concepts and ideas from these series that are incompatible with the main universe.
Yes, for the main universe. The rest of the universes have their own descriptions in their series, and the description in Assassin of the Athena Exclamation is not impressive, even the Galaxian Explosion is not galaxy level in that universe.
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Hasty12345
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I think you're using "incompatible" incorrectly. Not that I inherently disagree with GA occurring in a different timeline, the idea of the 9th sense NOT existing in classic is not incompatible. Incompatible implying the 9th sense cannot coexist with classic, the problem here is that the lack of it being stated to exist is by no means a contradiction. Characters are only reliable when speaking on things they know, if no character in classic know of the 9th sense, they're incapable on speaking on the validity of it's existence.
Bear with me for a moment, and picture this. Let's say Shura and Aiolia from G are sent to the future of a different timeline (GA). The GA timeline is a version of the classic timeline where Kanon's suicide attack failed to kill him and Rada (and thus became pope) and the events of ND end in such a way Seiya vanishes at the end of the story like he does in GA.
In this scenario, GA takes place some time (about 10 years or so) after classic, and yet, iirc, none of the main cast new about the 9th sense, even upon facing such a power, Shura had to speculate it's existence based solely on Aiolos' feat (we as the reader knew it existed the panel before but Shura didn't). Which demonstrates no one in this neo-classic timeline or G have any idea on the 9th sense. The 9th sense is not incompatible with classic, these characters just had no idea it existed and/or didn't mention it as it wasn't and isn't relevant to anything in the story at all., the only reason people in classic knew about the 8th sense is due to Shaka finding out from Buddha iirc.
The 9th sense can exist in classic, and no one could have access to it or be aware of it's existence, it's not a contradiction, classic tends to be a very underdeveloped timeline and is probably the weakest because it lacks a lot of knowledge that exist within the larger multiverse that other timelines have developed.
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The problem is that the 9th sense was never named or mentioned in the original manga, even the official guides (Taizen and Official Site) make no mention of a 9th sense. In the main universe the 8th sense is the maximum, and Kurumada bases this concept on the Eight Consciousnesses of Buddhism. The concept of a 9th sense is incompatible with what is presented in the main universe and Kurumada's inspiration (Eight Consciousnesses) to create the concept of the 8ht senses.
Also, Okada's limited descriptions of the 9th sense indicate that this is the sense that the Saints awaken when they reach a speed greater than the speed of light (Shura activates this sense to surpass the speed of light). A nonsense for what was presented in the original manga, where the times that Seiya and the others were able to surpass the speed of light were just a hint of the 8th sense, that's why Dohko mentioned to Shiryu, Hyoga and Shiryu that they had been able to achieve miracles before and probably with the help of Athena's blood and the cosmos raised to the maximum they could awaken the 8th sense for a few seconds.
It is like the Omega that is presented in Saint Seiya Omega, a sense that surpasses the 7th sense, but it is not the 8th sense and it is a sense invented exclusively for this series, which was never mentioned in the original anime, even when the Saints mention that they knew of its existence (it was never a secret like the 8th Sense). This does not mean that the Omega also exists in the main universe.
The concepts as the 9th Sense and Omega are exclusive to their series and are not compatible with what is presented in the main universe.
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Hasty12345
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Bruh.... what did I even read....
You can't seriously think the 9th sense is activated by going FTL?
You can't seriously think the 9th sense is activated by going FTL?
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That is the limited description that an author like Okada gave to that sense in Requiem, where Shura awakens the 9th sense to go FTL speed.
Hasty12345
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contradicts this:
These are not interchangeable statements.
How can Shura need the 9th sense to go FTL but can't get the 9th sense until he goes FTL?
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It does not contradict it, Shura awakens the 9th sense in Requiem to surpass the speed of light. It is Okada's new description in Requiem, where to reach a FTL speed it is necessary to awaken the 9th sense.
The events of Next Dimension never happened in Assassin, even no one mentions the Arrow of the Goddess (the most powerful arrow of Sagittarius and one of the most powerful sacred treasures, which Marin finds in the ruins of the Temple of Ophiuchus), the thirteenth Gold Saint and Shiryu does not have the Dragon God's pearl in the tattoo on his back (a sacred treasure he acquired in the Temple of Scorpio, when Dohko's staff was damaged).
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Hasty12345
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Guess 12 year old Aiolia in G has 9th sense then, he was able to go ftl by raising his cosmo in his fist, after all, this is Okada's new description of the 9th sense, it should apply to his works. Oh and Saga blitzed Shura who had 7th sense twice across 2 panels when he found out Saga was pope, guess he has the 9th sense. Guess Shura's had 9th sense since beginning of G since he was able to literally just "activate FTL mode" in his first fight against the gladiators....
Don't you think it's entirely possible you're misinterpreting the 9th sense and the feats in all of Okada's work?
And if you can't see how those 2 statements you made contradict one another evn after I explained it, I don't think you know what contradiction means.
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Okada contradicts or retcon his works all the time, this is not strange, he even contradicts the designs of the characters (especially the armors), and this is the new description that this author gave to that sense invented by him.
No, it's just that Okada changes the descriptions in his works, we even saw how he changed the description of Galaxian Explosion in Assassin.
Hasty12345
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bruh, artists can change and develop their artstyle, just because Kurumada's drawing have looked nigh-identical for 35 years, doesn't mean other authors can't.... it's not considered a retcon............ by literally anyone but you ig
And have you considered that Okada hasn't actually given us a description for the 9th sense? not only is your interpretation inconsistent with his last works, you're seemly just invalidating all of GA and G because of 1 statement and ignoring the context. Shura had killed Aiolos prior to becoming the Anti-Pope which directly affects Shura's existence given he was summoned due to an impending war with the LW, this means Shura is currently a living paradox. GA shows us that even with minor causality shifts like Shura even existing post wailing wall requires all his cosmo just to not fall into the UW.
Now, not only has he died in the past of this world, but also severely damaged from his fight with Zeus (i.e. his arms and legs), for all we know, he might need the 9th sense just to go FTL since he's using all his cosmo to just stay alive or rather not fall into the UW, just like what happened to paradox existences in GA. This was explaine din great detail from Aiolia.
Even if I'm misremembering the early chapters of GA and the explanation given, he's still damaged by Zeus which forces the interpretation he needs the 9th sense to go FTL, and it isn't an anti-feat or contradiction at all because it's not quantifiable how much he's weakened in his current state.
When you ignore ALL OF GA, I can see you'd conclude Okada is retconing stuff, but if you actually read it, you'd know Shura needed to keep his comso raised just to not die as the world was trying to correct his existence.
And have you considered that Okada hasn't actually given us a description for the 9th sense? not only is your interpretation inconsistent with his last works, you're seemly just invalidating all of GA and G because of 1 statement and ignoring the context. Shura had killed Aiolos prior to becoming the Anti-Pope which directly affects Shura's existence given he was summoned due to an impending war with the LW, this means Shura is currently a living paradox. GA shows us that even with minor causality shifts like Shura even existing post wailing wall requires all his cosmo just to not fall into the UW.
Now, not only has he died in the past of this world, but also severely damaged from his fight with Zeus (i.e. his arms and legs), for all we know, he might need the 9th sense just to go FTL since he's using all his cosmo to just stay alive or rather not fall into the UW, just like what happened to paradox existences in GA. This was explaine din great detail from Aiolia.
Even if I'm misremembering the early chapters of GA and the explanation given, he's still damaged by Zeus which forces the interpretation he needs the 9th sense to go FTL, and it isn't an anti-feat or contradiction at all because it's not quantifiable how much he's weakened in his current state.
When you ignore ALL OF GA, I can see you'd conclude Okada is retconing stuff, but if you actually read it, you'd know Shura needed to keep his comso raised just to not die as the world was trying to correct his existence.
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Hasty12345
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Different Saga bro, don't know how many times you need to be told this.
Even Kurumada has 3 different descriptions of Galaxian Explosion in classic and a new one in ND, guess we should invalidate all of classic because of some minor inconsistencies in descriptions of attacks.
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Kurumada does not completely change the design of the armors, even with his new drawing style.
Shura's problem in Requiem is different from the problem he had in Assassin, and his new problem only prevents him from staying long in one world, even now he is wandering through different spaces and times, from the past to the future. And Shura only awakens the 9th sense for a few seconds to exceed the speed of light, therefore, Okada indicates that FTL speed is related to the 9th sense in Requiem.
Saints can use their cosmos to the fullest even after death. Aiolos' cosmos (after his death) is still powerful enough to grant Seiya the power to stop Aiolia's Lightning Bolt and turn it against him. Remember that the cosmos of the Saints transcends death.
It's just Okada applying one of his famous retcons.
Cain is a different character from Saga, he is not Saga changing the description of his technique as it happens in Assassin. Besides, that's why the Final Edition exists to solve all the problems of the original manga with his new works.
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Hasty12345
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Why can't he have the same problem? It wasn't a character that was doing it to Shura it was the timeline he was in itself.
Okada does NOT have to keep repeating himself to appease people who didn't read the previous manga. Why would the law of the world change because it's a sequel? Like come on bro, your hate boner for Okada is annoying enough to put up with, but this is just straight stupid.
I've already explained how there exists a coherent explanation that coexists with everything previously established. You're choosing to read GR as though GA doesn't exist and has already explained half this shit.
Like coloring in?
Or you maybe not comprehending the statements correctly?
Bruh
You do not know what Kurumada will or won't change and you don't know what he may or may not change the descriptions to. Galaxian explosion is just as inconsistent in classic as it is in G.
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Because now his condition is different, and he is literally wandering through space and time, and cannot stay long in one world.
Shura's problem started even before he killed Aiolos in the past in the Lost World, it was even that problem that brought him to that time and world in first place.
That is why it is a retcon or a new description of Okada for his new manga, and now Okada describes that to exceed the speed of light it is necessary to awaken the 9th Sense.
What is the problem with the coloring?. Kurumada even corrected the hair colors of the Gold Saints in the Tomo.
No, because he is a different character from Saga, and if Kurumada wants he can give that description to Saga's Galaxian Explosion in the Final Edition, he even changed the name of the golden dagger to Sword of Chrysus in the Final Edition, he also changed the date of the story and now the manga takes place in 1990, as he describes it at the beginning of Next Dimension. The Final Edition is a project that Kurumada was planning for years and all the problems of the original manga with the new works will be solved in that version, unlike Okada, whose problems are still present even in the manga of his authorship.
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Hasty12345
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Have you considered the possibility that Shura can be affected by more than 1 thing? like how someone can have a broken leg and a cold, they're not mutually exclusive.
No.... Shura needed the 9th sense, which actually indicates his cosmo is weaker now than it was in GA. It's not a retcon, okada is showing Shura is not okay from his battle with Zeus and needs maximum amps to even be comparable to top tier gold saint level.
GA happened. Shura is a fken mess.
Nothing is the problem with colouring in, if you read what it was in response to, it was regarding "Kurumada's new style" you mentioned.
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No, because Shura's problem in Requiem started even before killing Aiolos.
Shura was already an exile from space and time even before that.
In the manga it is never described that Shura's cosmos is weak, he even seems stronger than before. Also, the loss of an arm and legs should not limit his cosmos in any way, even Saints can fight after death (after losing their whole body) because their cosmos transcends death.
As I said, it's just a retcon or a new description of Okada for his new manga. And now he describes that to exceed the speed of light it is necessary to awaken the 9th Sense.
When I mentioned new drawing style, I was referring to Kurumada's new style which is a bit more simplified or ugly compared to his style in Hades Arc or later manga (such as Bt'X, Silent Knight Sho, etc), something that is due to the problems he has with his hand that make it difficult for him to draw his manga.
Hasty12345
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We'll just agree to disagree.
Hasty12345
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Here's my personal list mostly based on what I remember off the top of my head from classic.
S) eyes open shaka
A) Shion/Dohko
B) Kanon/Saga/Aiolos
C+) eyes closed Shaka
C) Camus/Shura/Aiolia/Mu/Miro
D+) Aldy
D) Aphro/DM
Notes:
- The placement within each tier is debatable, but everyone in the higher tier can beat everyone below them 1-1.
- This is mainly classic, If you want to include G (not GA), Aiolia would move up to Saga's tier, maybe even above eyes open Shaka with Zeus' weapon.
- Sho could also be used to indicate Aiolia is closer to Saga and might warrant being in that tier if you want to cross scale.
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Hasty12345
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between Kanon and Dohko ig
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Personally, I think it goes Shion/Dohko, then Kanon/Saga, Aiolos/Eyes open Shaka,Shura/Mu/aiolia/eyes closed shaka/Milo/Camus, Alderabaran,Aphrodite, Deathmask. I do have some reasoning for it too
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Comparable to Kanon/saga If they are all comparable to Rhadamanthys
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with the original series (the classic) only
i divide it up like this
God tier
Opened Eye Shaka, Shion, Dohko
High Tier
The Gemini's, Aiolos, Aiolia, Closed eye shaka
High-Mid tier
Camus, Shura, Mu
Mid tier
Milo, Aldy
Low tier
Deathmask, and Aphrodite.
i divide it up like this
God tier
Opened Eye Shaka, Shion, Dohko
High Tier
The Gemini's, Aiolos, Aiolia, Closed eye shaka
High-Mid tier
Camus, Shura, Mu
Mid tier
Milo, Aldy
Low tier
Deathmask, and Aphrodite.
Hasty12345
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I’m curious as to how you scale the Gemini’s above eyes open Shaka?
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Well, Saga is generally stated to be the strongest, multiple times. And he backs it up. Ikki even states in Next dimension, that Cain is like saga in the regard that they are the strongest of that generation.
Hasty12345
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Yes, however, “eyes open Shaka” is an amped state, it’s not his normal cosmo.
hence why Saga can be the strongest in base yet still be weaker than eyes open Shaka.
that being said, eyes open Shaka > saga would depend on how you view the fight just before they used AE ig
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if you want an example of how Shaka vs Saga would go all you have to do is look at Shaka vs Camus, Saga, and Shura. Saga was powerless to Tenbu Horin. Though this is pure hax and not AP oriented.
I know its vague, but there is evidence stemming from the feats that specters have in other parts of the series that suggest Tenma Kofuku may have actually kill Shura, Camus, and Saga but due to their powers as specter they regenerated. That was an eyes closed Shaka.
For example, When he used Tenma Kofuku they stopped sensing their Cosmo. Even Specter Shion was in shock by it. Usually when you stop sensing ones cosmo even if tis a specter who is supposed to be dead. usually that means their perma gone unless they regen.
my memory is iffy but is there any feats of Saints having stealth mastery via surpressing their cosmo? not through other haxed means?
Tbh the weaker Gold Saints do have a hax advantage over those that are more powerful than them
Pisces with their poison
Capricorn with their Ice or time manipulation
Cancers with their soul hax that ignores resistance and their BFR
Aries Saints with their psychic abilities.
Virgos are pure hax and always busted and their not really "weak" lmao
I know its vague, but there is evidence stemming from the feats that specters have in other parts of the series that suggest Tenma Kofuku may have actually kill Shura, Camus, and Saga but due to their powers as specter they regenerated. That was an eyes closed Shaka.
For example, When he used Tenma Kofuku they stopped sensing their Cosmo. Even Specter Shion was in shock by it. Usually when you stop sensing ones cosmo even if tis a specter who is supposed to be dead. usually that means their perma gone unless they regen.
my memory is iffy but is there any feats of Saints having stealth mastery via surpressing their cosmo? not through other haxed means?
Tbh the weaker Gold Saints do have a hax advantage over those that are more powerful than them
Pisces with their poison
Capricorn with their Ice or time manipulation
Cancers with their soul hax that ignores resistance and their BFR
Aries Saints with their psychic abilities.
Virgos are pure hax and always busted and their not really "weak" lmao
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I think Haruto
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Shura and Aldy are pretty lack luster in the hax deparatment really when compared to other gold saints
Shura has excalibur supposed to cut through anything but its been shown to have its limits...
Aldy is just all muscle pure beef.
Shura has excalibur supposed to cut through anything but its been shown to have its limits...
Aldy is just all muscle pure beef.
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In the original manga it is different and Deathmask was one of the Gold Saints that caused the most problems to the Bronze Saints in the Sanctuary Arc, even Shiryu needed help from Athena not to be defeated with a single attack of Cancer.
Top tier
Saga
Kanon
Shaka
Dohko
Shion
High Tier
Aiolos
Aolia
Milo
High-Mid Tier
Mu
Aldebaran
Mid Tier
Deathmask
Aphro
Low Tier
Shura
Camus
Camus is the weakest of all Gold Saints, because he cannot reach absolute zero, therefore he cannot defeat any Gold Saint with his attacks.
Weaker than an elite Gold Saint, even Kanon defeated Rada, the strongest leader of the Underworld, without much trouble, and only a combined attack by the leaders could defeat Kanon. A leader like Rada is probably as strong as a high-level Gold Saint, Shun and Hyoga describe that his power is out of the ordinary even among Gold Saints, so he is stronger than an average Gold Saint.
Saga is described as the strongest by Kurumada, even Aiolos says that Saga is stronger than him.
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yet there is like 4 gold saints that have statements of "i am the strongest" saga just has the most but his feats are lack luster comapred to shaka.
you could argue that Saga is stronger AP wise, but hed lose in a hax battle.
Though you could argue that Closed Eye Shaka 1-shotted Saga alongside 2 otehr Gold Saints as well with a pure AP attack. Which does have some evidence to a degree supporting it
tahts all i will say on the matter.
you could argue that Saga is stronger AP wise, but hed lose in a hax battle.
Though you could argue that Closed Eye Shaka 1-shotted Saga alongside 2 otehr Gold Saints as well with a pure AP attack. Which does have some evidence to a degree supporting it
tahts all i will say on the matter.
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Shura is the only purely physical Gold Saint, and his technique is the easiest to stop and dodge among the techniques of the Gold Saints. The Excalibur has never been seen to cut or damage a Gold Cloth, even how much damage it could cause to a Gold Saint or an opponent of his level with stronger armor than a Bronze Cloth is unknown.
Aldebaran has some mental abilities, he can even use illusions, he used an illusion to make believe that Sorrento cut off his head.
Saga is mentioned as the strongest on more than one occasion and by different characters (including Gold Saints like Milo). In addition, Saga is one of the Gold Saints with more and better feats in the manga.
Saga, Kanon and Shaka are the strongest Gold Saints of their generation.
Shaka never killed Saga, Camus and Shura, they were able to evade or survive that attack, and then hid their presence to pass the Temple of Leo and not fight with Aiolia.
This is a list of all the mentions about the power of the Gold Saints in the Original Manga and Next Dimension. The translation is by Shady, the best translator of the franchise.
¿Quién dijo qué?
A lo largo del manga original, los Santos han emitido frases haciendo referencia a los poderes y cualidades especiales de sus pares. A continuación, una recopilación de estos dichos, los cuales nos ayudarán a comprender mejor los niveles de ciertos personajes.
www.ssnextdimension.com
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Specters have no regeneration, they come back to life because Hades resurrects them, and Hades does not resurrect any of his Specters because they become useless when the Masei (Evil Star) is sealed in the rosary. The Saints that Hades resurrects do not have that power, even they all die with a single attack and disappear as dust after that. Shaka never killed Saga, Camus and Shura in the Temple of Cancer.
Shiryu also says that Shion and Dohko's cosmos disappeared after they both collided their attacks, but this does not mean that they died at that moment and resurrected later.
The Saints can completely hide their cosmos, even some like Shaka, Kanon, Mu and Ikki showed that they can become completely invisible to their opponents, Kanon even launched a mental attack on Lune without him noticing his precense.
Capricorn has no ice attacks or time manipulation (only Requiem's version, who has time manipulation by using Alice's Vorpal Sword), or do you mean Aquarius, which also has no time manipulation (only Tokisada), and ice attacks are useless against stronger opponents. The ice attacks need a specific temperature to cause lethal damage to stronger opponents. For example a Gold Saint can only be defeated by an attack with the temperature of absolute zero and a god like Thanatos can only be defeated by a temperature hundreds of times colder than absolute zero.
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