Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[TheUnshakableOne]

So is potency based on affecting layers of resistance?

Yes

Unless you can prove that the UES scales to hax potency

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes

Unless you can prove that the UES scales to hax potency

I see

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Gonna be fun to see these crts/blogs

The funny thing is that none of the CRTs were accepted.

So.,. Now that soul manip and mind manip standards changed, how strong is hades soul manip

What's the change?.

I think it at least thousand to million with a scaling chain

All souls in the Underworld are being affected by Hades' cosmos. The Underworld has billions or millions of souls, the Cocytus (one of the prisons of the Underworld) is mentioned to have millions of souls.

Spoiler

 

[Rabbit2002]

All souls in the Underworld are being affected by Hades' cosmos. The Underworld has billions or millions of souls, the Cocytus (one of the prisons of the Underworld) is mentioned to have millions of souls.

I know, but the new standards soul hax is not about quantity

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I know, but the new standards soul hax is not about quantity

What are the new standards?.

 

[Hasty12345]

What are the new standards?.

Layers of resistance.

so like C resists B soul hax who affected A
C’s soul hax resistance > A’s soul hax resistance.

potency works the same way, the more layers of resistance your potency overcomes, the stronger it is.

 

[Rabbit2002]

1. Hax potency under a universal energy system would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis, one would have to prove that one's hax potency is connected to/dependant on the user's own physical power level, and that the stronger the user, the stronger their hax.

2. Hax resistance would be dealt in a similar way, if a character can withstand hax with a specific amount of energy from said energy source via raw strength (Assuming it is confirmed to be that way), then those with higher energy levels of the same exact energy type would also be able to resist (Like the One Piece Gomu-Gomu example in the Resistance page explains, where wielders of the same fruit would share the same exact resistances). This is of course, assuming that they use the same exact energy type/source, this wouldn't apply to characters using different energy sources (For example, Odin-Force's resistances would not be cross-scalable to something like Dr. Strange's magic unless there are statements/showings for it).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The funny thing is that none of the CRTs were accepted.

Proof?

Edit: it's about future CRTs btw

 

[Hasty12345]

These hax revisions may have crippled the verses potency unless we can prove ones cosmo scales their resistance to soul hax

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Layers of resistance.

so like C resists B soul hax who affected A
C’s soul hax resistance > A’s soul hax resistance.

potency works the same way, the more layers of resistance your potency overcomes, the stronger it is.

This may be a problem for the franchise.

But there are some examples of souls that are more resistant than others.

A quick example.

Shoko and the Saintias can destroy souls (evil souls) of normal humans transformed into dryads with their attacks.

Spoiler

But they cannot destroy the soul of the Dryads, for this they need a sacred treasure.


Sacred Treasures and some characters may have a power to affect souls that even have resistance to soul manipulation.

 

[Hasty12345]

This may be a problem for the franchise.

But there are some examples of souls that are more resistant than others.

A quick example.

Shoko and the Saintias can destroy souls (evil souls) of normal humans transformed into dryads with their attacks.

Spoiler

But they cannot destroy the soul of the Dryads, for this they need a sacred treasure.


Sacred Treasures and some characters may have a power to affect souls that even have resistance to soul manipulation.

Also the souls of gods are immortal without the interference of another god, so that should be like 1 or 2 layers combined with the dryads

 

[Hasty12345]

Why do Aiolia, Mu, Milo, Aldebaran, Saga, Camus and Shura have 8th sense?

 

[Rabbit2002]

Why do Aiolia, Mu, Milo, Aldebaran, Saga, Camus and Shura have 8th

Because they show up in hell to destroy the wailing wall, iirc they travel through time to help Athena in ND

 

[Hasty12345]

Because they show up in hell to destroy the wailing wall, iirc they travel through time to help Athena in ND

I've reviewed the chapters.

After being tossed down by Wyvern, Aiolia and co. are implied to have been alive in the Underworld at some point, implying they weren't subject to Hades' law, instead dying in Cocytus. So those 3 awakening their 8th sense on the way down is a valid interpretation IMO.

The others, however, are stated to have their souls in their cloth like Aiolos, they weren't alive, their souls are tethered to their cloths. They don't need the 8th sense to do that. Saga, Shura, Camus and Aldebaran don't have the 8th sense as far as what were the defined conditions by Dohko to what the 8th sense does.

Dohko, Kanon and Shaka are self explanatory, they were in the Underworld alive, they must have the 8th sense.

 

[Rabbit2002]

I've reviewed the chapters.

After being tossed down by Wyvern, Aiolia and co. are implied to have been alive in the Underworld at some point, implying they weren't subject to Hades' law, instead dying in Cocytus. So those 3 awakening their 8th sense on the way down is a valid interpretation IMO.

The others, however, are stated to have their souls in their cloth like Aiolos, they weren't alive, their souls are tethered to their cloths. They don't need the 8th sense to do that. Saga, Shura, Camus and Aldebaran don't have the 8th sense as far as what were the defined conditions by Dohko to what the 8th sense does.

Dohko, Kanon and Shaka are self explanatory, they were in the Underworld alive, they must have the 8th sense.

Mu and Aiolos and other can revived from dead, they can be considered to have lived

 

[Hasty12345]

Mu and Aiolos and other can revived from dead, they can be considered to have lived

Mu was with Aiolia when they died in Cocytus, not by Hades' Divine Will.

Aiolos died by Shura, Aphro and Deathmask back before G starts time wise, nothing indicates they awoke their 8th sense by being alive in the Underworld, it was their souls (meaning they were dead) controlling the gold cloths. They never traveled to the Underworld alive.

 

[Urshani]

I come in to a wall of text. And Okada dissing.

Lancelot, if you hate Okada so much, would you hate Akira Toriyama worse? IF he wrote ss I mean

 

[Rabbit2002]

Mu was with Aiolia when they died in Cocytus, not by Hades' Divine Will.

Aiolos died by Shura, Aphro and Deathmask back before G starts time wise, nothing indicates they awoke their 8th sense by being alive in the Underworld, it was their souls (meaning they were dead) controlling the gold cloths. They never traveled to the Underworld alive.

But without 8th sense, they would affected by Hades' rule and unable battle with him
Even when Shaka die, he exist as a soul, too.

 

[Hasty12345]

But without 8th sense, they would affected by Hades' rule and unable battle with him
Even when Shaka die, he exist as a soul, too.

The whole Wailing Wall scene is PIS, the only 6 Saints that meet Dohko's 8th sense criteria are Aiolia, Kanon. Dohko, Mu, Miro, and Shaka. The others never fought in the Underworld "Alive", only controlling their cloths with their soul (which makes no sense for the traitors considering how they died).

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The whole Wailing Wall scene is PIS, the only 6 Saints that meet Dohko's 8th sense criteria are Aiolia, Kanon. Dohko, Mu, Miro, and Shaka. The others never fought in the Underworld "Alive", only controlling their cloths with their soul (which makes no sense for the traitors considering how they died).

Souls do not have freedom and power in the Underworld without the 8th Sense (which is why the Saints were never able to invade the Underworld in the past), and the souls of Shura, Camus, Saga, Deathmask and Aphro have power and autonomy there during the scene at the Wailing Wall, indicating that they awakened the 8th Sense during that scene.

In Destiny we can see how the souls of Deathmask, Aphro and Saga are trapped in the Cocytus, where they are eternally tortured, before Ker appears to offer them a deal (kill Athena to free their souls from eternal punishment and grant them eternal life).

Spoiler

Without the 8th sense, the souls of Deathmask, Camus, Shura, Aphro, Aiolos and Saga would be subject to the laws of the world of the dead, something that does not happen in that scene.

In addition, in the Underworld the body has no importance, that is why Shiryu recovers his sight in that place, similar to what happened when Deathmask throws his soul into the Yomotsu Hirasaka, where his soul could see even when his body had lost its sight, this means that in that place even with the 8th Sense the Saints exist in a similar way to an etheric body or soul.

Spoiler

 

[Hasty12345]

Hmmm, I guess it can be argued they awoke it as they died. However, didn't Dohko say one would have to awaken it AT or PRIOR to death? I thought the specter saints were already dead (I could be remembering this wrong however), meaning they would of had to awoke it as they died in sanc arc.

This poses multiple problems:

1) The Saints were in Cocytus bound by Hades' law, so we know they didn't awaken the 8th sense in sanc arc.
2) Dohko states Shaka is the only one to have awoken it in Hades castle. Now ofc, he simply might not have known about the others, but then refer to problem 1.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Anyone got scans of any mentioning of the word "era" in the franchise?

 

[Hasty12345]

Anyone got scans of any mentioning of the word "era" in the franchise?

I know of this one

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Hmmm, I guess it can be argued they awoke it as they died. However, didn't Dohko say one would have to awaken it AT or PRIOR to death? I thought the specter saints were already dead (I could be remembering this wrong however), meaning they would of had to awoke it as they died in sanc arc.

No, Dohko only explains that it was easier to awaken it before death (when they are in agony, mortally wounded), when the senses begin to fade and that is when the 8th Sense arises. But this is not the only way, as Shaka had the 8th Sense awakened even before he died, as Dohko explains this is the reason why he was named as the closest to a god (and Kurumada also stated that Shaka possessed a sense superior to the 7th Sense in an interview during Poseidon Arc).

This poses multiple problems:

1) The Saints were in Cocytus bound by Hades' law, so we know they didn't awaken the 8th sense in sanc arc.
2) Dohko states Shaka is the only one to have awoken it in Hades castle. Now ofc, he simply might not have known about the others, but then refer to problem 1.

Radamanthys had beaten them before entering the Underworld, this means that they were wounded and weakened, and it was Radamanthys, who threw them through the hole into the Underworld, the Kyotos can choose directly where the opponent they defeat falls, it is a power like those who control the world of the dead. Radamanthys only threw them into the Cocytos where they were frozen.

Dohko's words only indicate that Shaka had awakened the 8th Sense before and was probably the first Saint to awaken it, since the Saints had never awakened that sense before (that's why they could never invade the Underworld). It also indicates that Shaka had awakened that sense even before the story began (because he was named as the closest to a god since his first appearance in the Sanctuary Arc).

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm still not convinced, I think the wailing wall scene is riddled with PIS, even if all the golds get it by technicality, the VIZ translations don't do a good job of explaining the nuances of awakening the 8th sense. Maybe it's just a translation thing idk

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The whole sunlight thing is also P.I.S at the wailing wall.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I'm still not convinced, I think the wailing wall scene is riddled with PIS, even if all the golds get it by technicality, the VIZ translations don't do a good job of explaining the nuances of awakening the 8th sense. Maybe it's just a translation thing idk

Well, even if they awakened the 8th Sense, it doesn't change that it is PIS, since everyone miraculously awakened the 8th Sense during that scene.

 

[Hasty12345]

The whole sunlight thing is also P.I.S at the wailing wall.

"Infinite power sun"

Although, Sho does indicate (briefly) that Artemis has some connection to moonlight, so the same may be true with Apollo and sunlight. Another odd writing choice by Kurumada

 

[Hasty12345]

Well, even if they awakened the 8th Sense, it doesn't change that it is PIS, since everyone miraculously awakened the 8th Sense during that scene.

I think the weirdest part is that must have awakened the 8th sense whilst under Hades' Will. That's the PIS part IMO

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

"Infinite power sun"

Although, Sho does indicate (briefly) that Artemis has some connection to moonlight, so the same may be true with Apollo and sunlight. Another odd writing choice by Kurumada

Another odd choice never explained in detail

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I think the weirdest part is that must have awakened the 8th sense whilst under Hades' Will. That's the PIS part IMO

The whole scene is just PIS, it was supposed to be a big moment and the farewell to the Gold Saints, and so Kurumada simply had everyone awaken the 8th Sense without any coherent explanation. Maybe for the Final Edition he will grant a better explanation.

"Infinite power sun"

Although, Sho does indicate (briefly) that Artemis has some connection to moonlight, so the same may be true with Apollo and sunlight. Another odd writing choice by Kurumada

In Sho and Next Dimension, they seem to imply that moonlight (or the moon) has special properties.

A magical power to purify the evil entities, that's why the artifacts of Artemis with the power of the moon were especially effective with evil beings.

Spoiler

Saintia Sho 78

P24
Ryuthos: Wanna know how I can still shoot?
Ryuthos: This arrow has the Moon's purification power...
Ryuthos: Your wicked powers are slowly fading!!
Phobos: What... Are you...
Ryuthos: This one is the last...!!
Ryuthos: I'll finish you... For good!!
Phobos: ........... Ha!
Phobos: Cut all... This bravery...
Phobos: A second ago... You could only do surprise attacks!!
Phobos: You cowardly chickenshit!!

P25
Phobos: Let's see how you do face-to-face...!!
Phobos: My power will repulse your arrow!!
Phobos: Then I'm gonna beat your ass until you're dead...
Phobos: Come on!!
Ryuthos: Uh... Uuuh....
Elda: RYUTHOS!!

-----------------------------

In Next Dimension, they seem to indicate that Hecate also uses the power of the moon for her magic. The witch says she has lived for thousands of years thanks to the moon.

Spoiler

It is likely that sunlight (or the sun) also has some special property, perhaps as it symbolizes life on Earth it was especially effective against a wall in a world created by the power of death.

 

[Hasty12345]

This translation says Artemis IS moonlight



But I don't have the raws to verify

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

This translation says Artemis IS moonlight

But I don't have the raws to verify

This is the official translation of Seven Seas.

This is the raw of that chapter in the version of Volume 8.
Calisto: アルテミス様は月光のごとく静か見守っておられました

Spoiler

Yes, it says that Artemis was watching Athena like moonlight.

The moon in this franchise has special properties (it seems to be connected with magic and purifying powers, the Saintias with Artemis artifacts were immune to magic, and objects related to the power of the moon can be especially effective against evil beings), probably because of its connection with the goddess.

The sun and its power probably also have special properties in this franchise, similar to the moon.

 

[Hasty12345]

I see

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Man.. my team and i just keep finding nutty things in the franchise


We found evidence that Episode G Titan King IS Chronos in ND

 

[Hasty12345]

That family tree implies Zeus had a kid with his cousin.... If I'm reading that right...

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That family tree implies Zeus had a kid with his cousin.... If I'm reading that right...

thats greek mythology for ya lmao

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Man.. my team and i just keep finding nutty things in the franchise

We found evidence that Episode G Titan King IS Chronos in ND

The Tomo version always removes all the notes placed by the editor at the end of the chapter, because they are not written by the author.

Cronos of Episode.G is not the same that Chronos of Next Dimension, even in Requiem it is said that the Titans are dead and will never return, because they ended up trapped in the depths of the Tartarus.

If Kurumada introduces Chronos as the Titan in future chapters, it would only confirm that Episode.G is not canon to the main universe, and Kurumada has his own version of these gods. But, for the moment, Cronos and Chronos are different gods and Episode.G is still part of this universe.

That is a general description of Greek mythology, it doesn't mean that Kurumada will introduce it that way in his story. And the other stories don't seem to follow the mythology 100% either, for example in Episode.G, Chaos is not a god, it's just the way the world was before its creation, when all the elements were mixed, that's why Iapetos created chaos when he mixed all the elements again.

 

[Hasty12345]

Even in Episode.G, Chaos is not a god, it's just the way the world was before its creation, when all the elements were mixed, that's why Iapetos created chaos when he mixed all the elements again.

idk about Cronus = Chronos, I've always made the distinction. But if you can't see that Caos the deity and Chaos the substance (mix of all elements + light and darkness) are 2 completely different things, then idek what to tell you.....

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

idk about Cronus = Chronos, I've always made the distinction. But if you can't see that Caos the deity and Chaos the substance (mix of all elements + light and darkness) are 2 completely different things, then idek what to tell you.....

Okada never introduces Chaos as a god, he only introduces Chaos as an substance (a mixture of all the elements: fire, earth, water and air) that existed when the world still had no form. For Okada the oldest god and the great mother of all gods is Gaia.

We also don't know if Chaos exists as a god for Kurumada, because in an interview he seems to insinuate that he follows what is presented in the Orphic tradition, where Chronos is the father or origin of all gods (although Kurumada also mentions Gaia as a possibility of the progenitor god of all gods), but this is not yet described in his story, so it may be different.