Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[StekFence]

This one

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

A question.

Is this adaptation and resistance to sealing or is it something different?.

Shaka adapts to the dimension in which Dysnomia trapped him with her Reverse of Universe, a dimension beyond time and space where they could see the entire multiverse.

Spoiler

Chapter 82:

P12
Dysnomia: Your face doesn't change
Dysnomia: But I know you're thinking about it

P13
Dysnomia?: Such a shame
Dysnomia?: We can see everything from here, but we can't interfere in anything
Dysnomia: If we could...
Dysnomia: We would be gods, right? Hehe...
Shaka: ........ Yes
Shaka: So I'll have to defeat you and get away
Dysnomia: ..... Huh?

P14 & P15
Dysnomia: !!
Dysnomia: PERSONAL FIELD
Dysnomia: ... It didn't work...
Dysnomia: Are you already adapted to this dimesion... in such a short time?

Dysnomia uses her Absolute Confinement to create energy seals to trap Shaka in that place, these seals are more powerful than the laws of that dimension that stopped Shaka before, but he destroys those seals and holds his universe with his hands before escaping from that dimension.

Spoiler

Chapter 82:

P16
Dysnomia: Unbelievable... Amazing
Dysnomia: You're the soulmate* I've been searching for
Dysnomia: You won't escape....!!
Dysnomia: ABSOLUTE CONFINEMENT
*運命の人（うんめいのひと）= "destined person"

P17
Dysnomia: Don't go away, mister Shaka...
Dysnomia: I'm the only one able to understand your amazing nature
Dysnomia: Why would you go back to a world fated to be destroyed?
Shaka: Dysnomia...
Shaka: We could never understand each other
Shaka: It's wrong to say we can see everything from here
Disnomia: Huh....?
Shaka: You said the uncountable sparks seen from here
Shaka: Are too tiny

P18 & P19
Shaka: From here, we can't see the universe inside people's hearts...
Shaka: The ephemeral spark from living beings, that disperses into the infinite
Shaka: The source to create a new future
Shaka: The world's destruction is not settled
Shaka: Farewell
Disnomia: Mister Shaka...
Disnomia: So noble...

It's interesting how Shaka has more abilities than all the gods in this franchise combined.

Shaka is the true god of this franchise.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

that looks more like an intelligence feat combined with Reactive Evolution into Power Nullification because he adapated (a lower form of Reactive Evolution) into nullifying Dysnomnia's control over the dimension + taht allowed him to overcome the sealing

But Yeah i agree Virgo Saints in General are busted asf especially Shaka

Remember in G? he was able to resistance Negation of Sealing and Teleportion. The Titan Universe was supposed to be impentratable by Shaka just yeeted himself right in there just fine.

The Sanctuary is also supposed to be Anti-Teleportation proof by that doesn't seem to bother Shaka and Mu.

Edit: Should also be a Good prep time feat for Shaka.

Edit 2: it could also be considered reality Warping i suppose.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The Sanctuary is also supposed to be Anti-Teleportation proof by that doesn't seem to bother Shaka and Mu.

In Requiem, Seiya mentions that the dimensional abilities allow Saints and Cyclops to teleport inside the Sanctuary. It seems that Athena's barrier is not impressive in this series or maybe this happened because Athena's barrier is weakened and Seiya confirms that he is an idiot in Requiem (something that is not new, considering that Seiya mentions the destruction of a Temple as something impressive and that to achieve this the enemy needs to overcome Athena's power, when the power of three Gold Saints with the Athena Exclamation destroys the Virgo Temple and the power of two Athena Exclamation would destroy the whole Sanctuary, and Shijima threatens to destroy the Virgo Temple with Angyo).

In the main universe or in Kurumada's manga, Saints can teleport between Temples, but they cannot skip Temples, even with dimensional abilities, Saints need the permission of the guardian protecting the Temple to travel to that place, that's why Mu and even Athena cannot skip Temples without the permission of the Saints protecting the Temples. For example, Hyoga inside the Another Dimension needed the help of Camus to travel to the Libra Temple, and Odysseus asks the Pope for help so that Ikki can travel to his Temple.

Spoiler

In short, if a Saint considers an invader to be an enemy, he will never be able to cross his Temple even with teleportation or dimensional abilities. This applies even to someone as powerful as Athena herself, the Sanctuary considers Saori an enemy, so the goddess could not leave the Sanctuary and teleport directly to the beginning of the Sanctuary, even the Sanctuary activates the Temples' traps/defences to stop the goddess.

Athena's barrier in the Sanctuary is anti-anti-teleportation.

 

[StekFence]

Spoiler: ND spoilers

damn, I just realized how strong kaisers lions are. Goldie is implied to have defeated the injured suikyo. Goldie also tanked a light speed punch from kaiser, albeit with slight injuries. Goldie also eviscerated multiple specters with said injuries. Kaiser was willing to have Goldie fight death toll so thats a strong cat. Tenma countered an attack from Goldie head on, so maybe he isn’t too weak.

Shaka is the true god of this franchise.

not wrong

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

damn, I just realized how strong kaisers lions are. Goldie is implied to have defeated the injured suikyo. Goldie also tanked a light speed punch from kaiser, albeit with slight injuries. Goldie also eviscerated multiple specters with said injuries. Kaiser was willing to have Goldie fight death toll so thats a strong cat. Tenma countered an attack from Goldie head on, so maybe he isn’t too weak.

Tenma (who has the power of a Bronze Saint, probably a bit stronger) indicates that he could fight Goldie, so the doped lion is far from the power of a Gold Saint, and was defeated by Worm Specter with ease. Goldie's power seems to be somewhere between a Bronze Saint and a Silver Saint.

 

[Hasty12345]

In Requiem, Seiya mentions that the dimensional abilities allow Saints and Cyclops to teleport inside the Sanctuary. It seems that Athena's barrier is not impressive in this series or maybe this happened because Athena's barrier is weakened and Seiya confirms that he is an idiot in Requiem (something that is not new, considering that Seiya mentions the destruction of a Temple as something impressive and that to achieve this the enemy needs to overcome Athena's power, when the power of three Gold Saints with the Athena Exclamation destroys the Virgo Temple and the power of two Athena Exclamation would destroy the whole Sanctuary, and Shijima threatens to destroy the Virgo Temple with Angyo).

I also believe there was a statement in requiem that implies that the primoridals have some kind of limited hax negation of Olympians because they're older or something along those lines, so there are multiple factors here that explain why Athena's barrier is weak atm.

 

[StekFence]

Goldie's power seems to be somewhere between a Bronze Saint and a Silver Saint.

Kaiser literally asked death toll if he would like to fight him or Goldie. This implies Kaiser thinks death toll could lose. Additionally, suikyo was a victim of Goldie, meaning Goldie at least did something when suikyo got to Leo. On top of this, Goldie wasn’t really defeated by worm, more than held down. Kaiser was also held down, but broke free. So Kaiser is most probably > goldIie. But goldie seems to have been somewhere near a gold. Idk how a lion could get a cosmo that strong, but whatever.

 

[StekFence]

Although it really isn’t that important in the end so whatever

 

[Hasty12345]

LC implies that the senses aren't limited to humans, Goldie being comparable to 7th sense users implies he himself may have limited access to the 7th sense, otherwise he'd just get blitzed by literally any saint, Lions aren't mach 1.

 

[StekFence]

Goldie being comparable to 7th sense users implies he himself may have limited access to the 7th sense,

This is what I was thinking, as cosmo exists in every living thing, and The 7th sense is the source of cosmo. Therefore, any life form should theoretically be able to reach the 7th sense with enough training and miracles/plot armor

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Kaiser literally asked death toll if he would like to fight him or Goldie. This implies Kaiser thinks death toll could lose. Additionally, suikyo was a victim of Goldie, meaning Goldie at least did something when suikyo got to Leo. On top of this, Goldie wasn’t really defeated by worm, more than held down. Kaiser was also held down, but broke free. So Kaiser is most probably > goldIie. But goldie seems to have been somewhere near a gold. Idk how a lion could get a cosmo that strong, but whatever.

Kaiser just exaggerates, and then we saw how Goldie lost to the Worm Specter, who was defeated by Deathtoll with a hit from his ass. Goldie couldn't break free from the tentacles of the Worm Specter, a Gold Saint like Aiolia and Kaiser broke free from those tentacles easily. Suikyo was weakened and injured from his fights against Ikki, Ox, Cain/Abel and Deathtoll, even he is still weakened in his last fight against Dohko, after drinking the water from the Crateris Cloth to heal his wounds. Goldie is not at the level of a Gold Saint or close in power to them, even Tenma indicates that he could fight Goldie and Tenma is only a Bronze Saint in that part of the story.

LC implies that the senses aren't limited to humans, Goldie being comparable to 7th sense users implies he himself may have limited access to the 7th sense, otherwise he'd just get blitzed by literally any saint, Lions aren't mach 1.

No, this was also described in the original manga of Saint Seiya where the cosmos is life itself and all living beings on the planet possess a cosmos, although only a few with training or the blessing of a god can use it and control this cosmos. Goldie and Blondie are descendants of a Lion (who is probably a descendant of the Nemea Lion. Or was it the Nemea Lion in the Saint Seiya universe?), who could understand human language and communicate telepathically with humans.

 

[Hasty12345]

No, this is part of Saint Seiya

Yes, Lost Canvas is Saint Seiya manga?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yes, Lost Canvas is Saint Seiya manga?

It's a manga of Saint Seiya, but it has a very strange concept of cosmos, we even saw how the Saints lost the ability to use their cosmos because of a scientist's cathode (a ridiculous concept for the original manga, and these indicates that Hades should have sent his Specters to study science if they wanted to neutralize Saints) and Athena neutralizes Yato and Yuzuriha's cosmos, when in the original manga the cosmos is impossible for the gods to neutralise because it represents the life of living beings, therefore only death can prevent a Saint from using his cosmos, even the 8th Sense allows Saints to transcend death itself.

 

[Hasty12345]

power nullification is a thing but ok

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

power nullification is a thing but ok

It is impossible to nullify the power of a Saint, even Hades' barrier only weakens the Saints, but it does not prevent them from using their cosmos, because cosmos represents life itself and whenever a Saint has life he can ignite his cosmos (this is Seiya's phrase). Even after death the cosmos still exists in the world, which is why Olivia was able to help her daughter and the Saintias after death, and the Saintias helped Athena after death, and Aiolos helped Athena after death.

In The Lost Canvas, even a mediocre Saint like Ara, can neutralise and prevent a Gold Saint from using his cosmos, with the excuse that he is giving back to Athena the powers and cosmos she gave him, a nonsense because Athena does not give cosmos or power to the Saints, that is something exclusive to the Mariners and the Specters (where Hades and Poseidon grant their powers to them), that's why they are pathetic armies compared to the power of the Saints.

In the main universe a Saint can only lose his ability to use cosmos with his death, but we have already seen how the cosmos of the Saints transcends death.

 

[Rabbit2002]

I don't remember Hades's barrier nullify cosmos of the Saints, it just said the barrier reduce the power of the saints

 

[Hasty12345]

In the main universe a Saint can only lose his ability to use cosmos with his death, but we have already seen how the cosmos of the Saints transcends death.

speaking of, weren't you gonna make a CRT to give the golds with 8th sense like low 1-C type 9 immortality? or something

 

[Rabbit2002]

Transcends death it seems like type 5

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I don't remember Hades's barrier nullify cosmos of the Saints, it just said the barrier reduce the power of the saints

In the main universe it is impossible to nullify cosmos of the Saints, not even the gods have that power, that's why Hades could never neutralise the Saints and prevent them from using their cosmos. Athena does not grant powers to the Saints, they gain their powers through training and mastery of the senses, a characteristic that differentiates the Saints from the warriors of other gods (such as the Mariners and the Specters) and grants them unlimited potential. That's why the idea of Athena taking away the cosmos and the ability to use their cosmos from the Saints is stupid for what is presented in Kurumada's manga (even taking away a living being's cosmos is killing it, because cosmos represents the life of living beings). Saori couldn't stop Seiya and the others from fighting again. That was nonsense that Shiori made up for her universe, because the author doesn't understand Kurumada's manga.

Hades' barrier weakens the Saints, but it also kills all living beings inside the barrier in the original manga.

 

[Rabbit2002]

I really impressive if saint can transcends death and have immo type 5

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

all im reading is non-sense here lol

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

speaking of, weren't you gonna make a CRT to give the golds with 8th sense like low 1-C type 9 immortality? or something

No. Although the Gold Saints were able to achieve type 9 immortality with the 8th Sense, because they returned after their body and soul were completely destroyed in their sacrifice to destroy the Wailing Wall. And Asclepius (who probably masters the 8th sense) could not be destroyed by the gods, and could only be trapped in the Tartarus, a prison created to detain him and prevent him from returning.

 

[Hasty12345]

Transcends death it seems like type 5

Ikki has type 5 iirc

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Ikki has type 5 iirc

Type 5 immortality is for those who can only be killed by destroying their soul, therefore it is the immortality of some characters like Ikki, dryads and gods (like Athena, Posedon, Hades, Hypnos, Thanatos, etc). The immortality of the Gold Saints with the 8th Sense is probably type 9, because they came back after their souls and bodies were completely destroyed, even now they transcend time and space.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Type 5 immortality is for those who can only be killed by destroying their soul, therefore it is the immortality of some characters like Ikki, dryads and gods (like Athena, Posedon, Hades, Hypnos, Thanatos, etc). The immortality of the Gold Saints with the 8th Sense is probably type 9, because they came back after their souls and bodies were completely destroyed, even now they transcend time and space.

What suggest it transcend time and space?

 

[Rabbit2002]

transcends space-time could be immesurable speed

 

[Hasty12345]

Type 5 immortality is for those who can only be killed by destroying their soul, therefore it is the immortality of some characters like Ikki, dryads and gods (like Athena, Posedon, Hades, Hypnos, Thanatos, etc). The immortality of the Gold Saints with the 8th Sense is probably type 9, because they came back after their souls and bodies were completely destroyed, even now they transcend time and space.

that's not how type 5 or type 9 immortality works, you're mixing regen with immortality types.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Regen after soul and bodies completely destroyed should be mid godly regen
Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of body, mind, and soul.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

What suggest it transcend time and space?

It is described that they crossed time and space to help Athena and Shijima.
今は亡き黄金聖闘士の魂が時空を超えてわたしを守っている!!

 

[Hasty12345]

It is described that they crossed time and space to help Athena and Shijima.
今は亡き黄金聖闘士の魂が時空を超えてわたしを守っている!!

wheres the panel this comes from?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

that's not how type 5 or type 9 immortality works, you're mixing regen with immortality types.

Description of immortality type 9.
9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.

Immortality

Immortality is the ability to simply not die by natural means for any number of reasons, ranging from simply having no limit to your lifespan, being able to regenerate from wounds that would normally be lethal, or being protected by a higher being, among other possible reasons. It should be...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Gold Saints came back even after dying on the plane of life and death, which is probably why they get this immortality.

Regen after soul and bodies completely destroyed should be mid godly regen
Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of body, mind, and soul.

It is not regeneration, because they never regenerated their bodies, they only came back as souls after they were completely destroyed.

wheres the panel this comes from?

When the Saints appear to help Saori who ended up trapped in a time and space distortion in the labyrinth of the gods that sent her back in time.

Spoiler

 

[Hasty12345]

The Gold Saints came back even after dying on the plane of life and death, which is probably why they get this immortality.

only Shaka was stated to reside in Nirvana, no other gold was stated to reside there.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

only Shaka was stated to reside in Nirvana, no other gold was stated to reside there.

The others also disappeared completely and returned with Shaka to help Athena, so it is likely that they are also in Nirvana, even the 8th Sense is related to Buddhist enlightenment in the universe of Saint Seiya, that's why Gautama Buddha could awaken that sense and gives this secret to Shaka.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Why does Hades have Memory Manipulation in his profile, but Hypnos and Thanatos don't have that ability?.
Memory Manipulation (Bestowed it upon Pandora)

Hades (Saint Seiya)

Hades, Underworld Emperor (冥王ハーデス; meiö hadesu; Κόλαση Αυτοκράτορας Άδης) is the Greek God of the Dead and Lord of the Underworld, as seen in the Saint Seiya Franchise. Alongside his brothers Zeus and Poseidon, he is one of the Three Sacred Emperors. They stand above the other Olympians and are...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Hypnos and Thanatos gave their powers to Pandora, not Hades.

Spoiler

The description of Hades' petrification should be changed to this.

Spoiler

Hades petrified part of Eurydice's soul after Orpheus failed to fulfil the condition the god placed.

One detail about this, did Orpheus awaken the 8th Sense or did he simply commit suicide to travel to the Underworld and as a soul in the Underworld requested an audience with the god. I seem to remember that in the manga there is never any mention of Orpheus awakening the 8th Sense. Also, Shaka was the first Saint (not including Asclepius, who did not reveal this secret to others) who awakened the 8th Sense and then revealed this secret to others (including the goddess).

Orpheus could move freely in the Underworld, but also Eurydice was not a soul in pain in that place and could talk to the Saints. It is possible that they were free from the rules of the Underworld like the Specters because they had Hades' permission, even Orpheus and Eurydice could have returned to the world of the living as Hades indicated.

 

[StekFence]

a soul in the Underworld requested an audience with the god.

Thing is, being dead in saint seiya means you just walk in to the pit that leads to the underworld, where you get tossed in one of the prisons. Orphee wouldn’t have an opportunity to do talk to hades if he didn’t have the 8th sense from my understanding. Additionally, it says “even at the cost of his own life” which means he is alive.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Thing is, being dead in saint seiya means you just walk in to the pit that leads to the underworld, where you get tossed in one of the prisons. Orphee wouldn’t have an opportunity to do talk to hades if he didn’t have the 8th sense from my understanding. Additionally, it says “even at the cost of his own life” which means he is alive.

In the Hall of Judgment (1st Prison), the dead are free to speak during their trial, they can even sneeze and make Lune angry. Orpheus could have taken the opportunity to request an audience with Hades at this time.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Tbh i wouldn't be surprised of orphee was the first to awaken a 9th sense considering everything we know

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I would like to take a moment to elaborate what my plans are for the series here. Its not in any specific order

• i plan on making a verse specific powers page for Cosmo to make editing quicker and easier and creation of new pages easier and faster
• 
  
• I plan on revising the speed tiering across the board
• 
  
• i plan on making a Cosmology blog and a revised and updated canoncity blog along side it
• 
  
• i plan on making a debunk blog to debunk wild notions and thigns that are commonly stated or used aganist the verse
• 
  
• I also plan on revising the AP tiering across the board later
• 
  
• I also plan on trying to do a lot of calcs when possible
• 
  
• i also plan on making new pages and profiles for characters too but those might be the last things i do

all of this is going to take a considerable amount of time especially right now when im in a choatic and busy time of my life irl.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Tbh i wouldn't be surprised of orphee was the first to awaken a 9th sense considering everything we know

It is the 8th sense, the 9th sense does not exist in Kurumada's manga, and Shaka was the first to awaken that sense, a knowledge acquired in his conversations with Gautama Buddha, and this is the reason why in the Sanctuary he was known as the closest to a god. The 8th sense is a knowledge that not even Athena possessed, so Shaka sent her a message with this secret and awakened that sense to travel to the Underworld (a world inaccessible even to the power of the gods).