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Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

Here’s a raw for what the databook says about the photon burst. First the top paragraph then the very bottom paragraph.
 
How are anime/movie feats treated in this ? Can they be used or do we treat them as separate feats and such
 
RIZEXX said:
There’s a couple stuff from the anime/movies I wanna bring up but if we can’t use said feats there’s no point
Click to expand...
depends, I generally treat the senses as universal (as in they're the same) across all media but some don't like that idea.

You're free to bring stuff up
 
Okay cool hopefully they can be used.


Seiya makes a Big Bang against Taurus. Scans (1-2)

(This is in the manga and I’m pretty sure the wiki accepts this feat to be a legit Big Bang. I have the raw volume for this feat as well which I can post if need be)

Saga still disguised as the pope who’s been watching the battles in the 12 temples says that Seiya managed to awaken the 7th sense and created a Big Bang. Scans (3-6

Saint Seiya Daikaibou databook which I own confirms the Big Bang stuff. It’s also backed up in the taizen databook which is one of the main ss databooks and might be the first one actually. I have the scan for this as well I can post it scans 7-8

Still Mu says that if Alderbaren took the fight seriously the floor would be a sea of blood implying the type of power Seiya just pulled on Taurus is nothing to a gold saint. Scan-9

In the Eris movie Seiya says that the gold cloth can only be worn by those who’s cosmo rival even the Big Bang. Scans 10-11

Gemini Kannon tells ikki he’s gonna BFR him with golden triangle to another universe. The taizen databook also calls it a universe. The official saint seiya website says that the golden triangle is created. And on toei animation site it says the Gemini saint can manipulate space and create other dimensions. It’s possible that the Gemini saint creates a dimension that’s possibly the size of a universe. Scans 12-19

Randomly threw this in but Seiya created a Big Bang against Siegfried don’t know if he scales to gold saints or not from what I remember he should be weaker. scans 20-22
 
RIZEXX said:
Randomly threw this in but Seiya created a Big Bang against Siegfried don’t know if he scales to gold saints or not scans 20-22
Click to expand...
If ur asking about the god warriors, yes they scale. At least to the 7th sense bronzes, similar to the mariners.
 
Hasty12345 said:
I don't think fearing the destruction of the universe changes anything, there's 100's of reasons they may fear the destruction, none of them having anything to do with ap/durability.
Click to expand...
The problem is that none of them can stop the destruction of the universe. Also, the destruction of the universe will destroy the Sanctuary and kill them all, therefore, this indicates that they cannot survive a power of that level, that's why they are even willing to kill the goddess they have to protect and the only hope of the world.

In addition, the Athena Exclamation is the ultimate power and technique of the Gold Saints, the power of three Gold Saints combined, a technique that is described with the power of a big bang, therefore the power of three Gold Saints combined is only equivalent to the big bang that created the universe.
Hasty12345 said:
Also, most of your critiques are literally brought up in a thread where they were discussed in length and if you actually read the profiles, you'd see that the justification is based on the power of the 7th sense. GE, TK and other saints unique abilities don't play any kind of role. in their tier past "galaxy level normally".

I do agree however, the justification needs to be reworded to "low 2-C via miracles" not "at maximum power", as all the low 2-C feats for 7th sense saints are that, via miracles. Any and every 7th sense Saint should be capable of it.

Saga for example:

At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ when using his maximum power (The Galaxian Explosion is equal to Leo Aiolia's Photon Burst. The Galaxian explosion had its power compared Virgo Shaka's Tenma Kofuku. The power of the 7th sense is comparable to The Big Bang that created Time, alongside the Universe. Gold Saints are also stated to be capable of destroying the Universe.)
Click to expand...
Most Gold Saints cannot reach that level of power with a miracle. Only the Bronze Saints achieved that power with a miracle and fought against the gods, and even overcame Hypnos and Thanatos in the end, two gods far superior in power to the Gold Saints.

Ikki mentions that Poseidon had the highest cosmos he had felt up to that point, and this was before the god fully awakened.
Poseidon (fully awake and amplified by fury, with a cosmos that covered the universe, probably at universe level) >>>>> Poseidon (fully awake) >>>>> Poseidon (at the beginning of the fight) >>>>>> Gold Saints.

The power of the Gold Saints does not seem to be on the universal level, especially when in the main universe they are shown to be much weaker than the gods and can only fight the gods with Sacred Treasures or combining their cosmos.

Saga never achieved universal level power in the manga, he could not even defend himself against a goddess like Keres, who only used and humiliated him all his life.

Miracles to the point of challenging gods like Poseidon, Thanatos and Hypnos are something exclusive to the Bronze Saints, and the Gold Saints never achieved power of that level. Maybe only with the 8th sense (the ultimate sense in the main universe), but this is speculative, since they did not fight a god after awakening that sense and all died in the explosion of the Wailing Wall, and Athena stopped Shaka's fight against Hades.
Hasty12345 said:
I highlighted the components for you so there's no misinterpretation here. red is the justification for galaxy level. Green is justification for low 2-C.

And so there's no more ambiguity, it's verbatim stated "the 7th sense is the power to create miracles...... 7th sense pushed to it's climax can reach energies comparable to the primordial big bang". Even Shaka and Shijima's feat was considered a miracle, and they did this upwards of 10,000 times (depending on the translations) in succession.

As for the "supernova" stuff, the term supernova is used in the manga to mean "big explosion", the databook for G directly states that the photon burst is a supernova EQUAL to the Big Bang. NOT "big bang equal to a supernova". This interpretation is also consistent with GE being compared to a supernova but having the power to destroy galaxies. That being said, this interpretation comes from the BR translation of G and it's databook which to be frank, is awful and virtually useless IMO.

https://imgur.com/user/Hasty218/favorites/folder/9007599/ss-feats/DZyeVV1
I think if we got the raws, it's more than likely true the big bang statements for photon burst will actually say "galaxy" or something along those lines, as it seems that the BR translator was quite liberal with the translations of the Japanese. This is more than evident with Mu destroying a "universe", which whilst is a valid interpretation of what happened (from a non-power scaling perspective), nothing in the kanji indicated it was universal in size, thus changing the quantification of the feat.

As for Saga, the English scanlations are vastly different and I have no idea if it's translated from the raws or the BR/spanish/french, but they unequivocally say Saga is galaxy level:

Regardless, I hear the person who translated the second half of GA will be translating all of G from the raws, so a more accurate translation of the manga will hopefully start releasing soon.

As for GA Saga, it doesn't matter he doesn't have a profile and is more than likely a completely different Saga than any we've seen before, but there are potential issues with the interpretation he's planetary from those statements as well.
Click to expand...
It is just an internal big bang in their body, because they have a mini universe inside their body and the Saints get that power by exploding that internal universe, this is the cosmos of the Saints and their power, but this does not mean that all Saints are universal level. Even Bronze Saints without 7th Sense can achieve a big bang and this does not indicate that they are universal, because it is an internal big bang in their bodies and cosmos.

The only technique that is described as a big bang similar to the force that created the universe is the Athena Exclamation, and this technique the combined power of three Gold Saints.

It is only described with the power of a supernova in the manga, where Saga says that his Galaxian Explosion is comparable to a supernova, even the Galaxian Encyclopedia also mentions this comparison. And about the description of the technique as a galaxy destroyer, that description changed in the sequel, where Saga describes that technique as a power to destroy worlds, not galaxies or universes, and this is a version of Saga that uses this technique to stop an attack by Aiolos (Lost World).

The power of Angyo and Ungyo is one of the few descriptions that could really confirm that the Gold Saints are universal, but considering that the rest of the Gold Saints are not described with that level of power it could be seen as an Outlier. It is likely that it is also something exclusive to Shaka and Shijima's power, and that the rest of the Gold Saints won't get powerscaled with them (maybe only Cain because he is the most powerful Gold Saint).
 
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literally nothing you mentioned is a problem for the scaling. Most Gold Saints not achieving a miracle =/= they can't. We know from the Toei timeline Gold Saints are able to raise their cosmo infinitely and attain the God cloth, keep in mind, the god cloth in and of itself can be seen as a state of prolonged "miracle", as there are close connections between infinite cosmo and miracles throughout the franchise.

Also, the base stats of Saints don't scale to miracles... like... miracles by definition cannot be an outlier. The only reason they're worth noting is due to the fact the 7th sense has very specific statements regarding the potential for miracles being Big Bang strong. If it wasn't so specific, they wouldn't be worth quantifying and putting on the profiles.

Lancelot_de_Cancer said:
The problem is that none of them can stop the destruction of the universe. Also, the destruction of the universe will destroy the Sanctuary and kill them all, therefore, this indicates that they cannot survive a power of that level, that's why they are even willing to kill the goddess they have to protect and the only hope of the world.
Click to expand...
This, is also not an issue for the scaling....

1) The universe is dying due to a temporal anomaly/time shit, that has nothing to do with the ap of anyone.

2) no human in saint seiya has shown the ability to survive indefinitely in space with no sort of matter ANYWHERE in the universe, they'd die due to the effects of the universe being destroyed, not the destruction itself.

3) There's also the possibility the gold cloths have universal durability, but the saints inside them don't (i.e. Cain and Odysseus, Cain reduced Ody to blood on the wall but the cloth wasn't even scratched).

4) You can argue Sanc and poseidons sanc have 2-C durability anyway due to the divine will of those gods being embedded in those structures.This is evident with the main pillar that holds the ocean (main breadwinner or whatever) has uni durability (and there's a lot of other evidence throughout the franchise that supports this idea as well). So the time shit that's going on might have higher ap than Uni, especially if it's going to kill the 2-C Athena....

Gods don't need miracles to be universal or above, they're stronk af. Humans, not so stronk = need miracles. Not that hard to understand.
 
RIZEXX said:
Okay cool hopefully they can be used.


Seiya makes a Big Bang against Taurus. Scans (1-2)

(This is in the manga and I’m pretty sure the wiki accepts this feat to be a legit Big Bang. I have the raw volume for this feat as well which I can post if need be)

Saga still disguised as the pope who’s been watching the battles in the 12 temples says that Seiya managed to awaken the 7th sense and created a Big Bang. Scans (3-6

Saint Seiya Daikaibou databook which I own confirms the Big Bang stuff. It’s also backed up in the taizen databook which is one of the main ss databooks and might be the first one actually. I have the scan for this as well I can post it scans 7-8

Still Mu says that if Alderbaren took the fight seriously the floor would be a sea of blood implying the type of power Seiya just pulled on Taurus is nothing to a gold saint. Scan-9

In the Eris movie Seiya says that the gold cloth can only be worn by those who’s cosmo rival even the Big Bang. Scans 10-11

Gemini Kannon tells ikki he’s gonna BFR him with golden triangle to another universe. The taizen databook also calls it a universe. The official saint seiya website says that the golden triangle is created. And on toei animation site it says the Gemini saint can manipulate space and create other dimensions. It’s possible that the Gemini saint creates a dimension that’s possibly the size of a universe. Scans 12-19

Randomly threw this in but Seiya created a Big Bang against Siegfried don’t know if he scales to gold saints or not from what I remember he should be weaker. scans 20-22
Click to expand...

Got any other scans like that because those are amazing finds?

Also Where'd you get the raws for the G-Encloypedia?
 
@Lancelot_de_Cancer please don't edit your comments mid argument. I'd rather you make a new comment so there's a flow of argumentation, I find it quite disrespectful you're changing the presentation of your arguments after I've responded.
 
I'm not even going to address your arguments. Anyone who reads the scans will see they're incoherent interpretations of the presented text.
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
Got any other scans like that because those are amazing finds?

Also Where'd you get the raws for the G-Encloypedia?
Click to expand...

I do have some more but I would have to pick them out and stuff. As for the encyclopedia I have a bunch of RAWS for it. I also have taizen RAWS in actually good quality
 
Hasty12345 said:
literally nothing you mentioned is a problem for the scaling. Most Gold Saints not achieving a miracle =/= they can't. We know from the Toei timeline Gold Saints are able to raise their cosmo infinitely and attain the God cloth, keep in mind, the god cloth in and of itself can be seen as a state of prolonged "miracle", as there are close connections between infinite cosmo and miracles throughout the franchise.

Also, the base stats of Saints don't scale to miracles... like... miracles by definition cannot be an outlier. The only reason they're worth noting is due to the fact the 7th sense has very specific statements regarding the potential for miracles being Big Bang strong. If it wasn't so specific, they wouldn't be worth quantifying and putting on the profiles.
Click to expand...
This only applies to Toei Animation's timeline with Soul of Gold, and I can also say that the Gold Saints were ridiculously weak compared to the Bronze Saints with God Cloth in the Hades Arc. Miracles to achieve a power to fight with the great gods such as Poseidon, Hypnos, Thanatos and Hades was always something exclusive to the Bronze Saints in the main universe.

Speaking of animated continuity. Amor, one of the most powerful Gold Saints of Omega and the franchise in general, the guy who was so powerful that he even killed another Gold Saint with a casual attack and dominated four gods more powerful than the Gold Saints, was killed by a single blow from Abzu in the body of Koga, the only primordial god of this franchise who is really awesome and has feats that put him on a universal level. This confirms that even one of the most powerful Gold Saints is ridiculously weaker than gods of this level.

It is an atypical case, when the other Gold Saints do not show this power and none of them describe that they possess a power to destroy a universe, and only Shaka and Shijima describe that they possess that power with their two most powerful techniques, or it may also be something exclusive to these two, considering that Shaka stands out as one of the most powerful Gold Saints and the guy completely mastered the 8th Sense (the ultimate sense in the main universe).
Hasty12345 said:
This, is also not an issue for the scaling....

1) The universe is dying due to a temporal anomaly/time shit, that has nothing to do with the ap of anyone.

2) no human in saint seiya has shown the ability to survive indefinitely in space with no sort of matter ANYWHERE in the universe, they'd die due to the effects of the universe being destroyed, not the destruction itself.

3) There's also the possibility the gold cloths have universal durability, but the saints inside them don't (i.e. Cain and Odysseus, Cain reduced Ody to blood on the wall but the cloth wasn't even scratched).

4) You can argue Sanc and poseidons sanc have 2-C durability anyway due to the divine will of those gods being embedded in those structures.This is evident with the main pillar that holds the ocean (main breadwinner or whatever) has uni durability (and there's a lot of other evidence throughout the franchise that supports this idea as well). So the time shit that's going on might have higher ap than Uni, especially if it's going to kill the 2-C Athena....

Gods don't need miracles to be universal or above, they're stronk af. Humans, not so stronk = need miracles. Not that hard to understand.
Click to expand...
Stopping an anomaly that is destroying the universe would not be a problem for them, since they can stop universal attacks. But they can't do it, because it is a power that even surpasses the Gold Saints.

The final battle on Saintia Sho was in the void of space, and the Gold Saints had no problem fighting in that place, and the catastrophe of the universe will also destroy the Sanctuary, a place protected by Athena's cosmos, therefore, even the Sanctuary cannot resist the destruction of the universe.

Niobe destroyed a Gold Cloth, Suikyo (near death) damaged the Gold Cloth of Libra (even the powerful shields of this armor) and Dohko overcame the power of that attack, Suikyo damaged the Gold Cloth of Taurus with his attack, Cardinale roses damaged the Gold Cloth of Virgo, etc. The Gold Cloth was never indestructible to the power of the Gold Saints. In addition, Cain was fighting against the Golden Ophiuchus, the most powerful Gold Saint (probably the most powerful Saint in Athena's entire army) and that was the legendary Gold Cloth of Ophiuchus.

That was the pillar of Poseidon after absorbing the cosmos of Athena with the death of the goddess, that is why Poseidon says that after sacrificing Athena not even the end of the universe could destroy that pillar, therefore it is the power of a god like Athena. And Seiya could only destroy that pillar with a miracle and help from Shiryu and Hyoga. No Gold Saint in the franchise scales to this level of power.

Yes, but the gods are much more powerful than the Gold Saints, and the Gold Saints cannot fight them without the help of a Sacred Treasure or combining their cosmos.
Hasty12345 said:
@Lancelot_de_Cancer please don't edit your comments mid argument. I'd rather you make a new comment so there's a flow of argumentation, I find it quite disrespectful you're changing the presentation of your arguments after I've responded.
Click to expand...
I preferred to correct it this way, so as not to make a double post (some forums have that rule, and I don't know if this forum has it).
Hasty12345 said:
I'm not even going to address your arguments. Anyone who reads the scans will see they're incoherent interpretations of the presented text.
Click to expand...
Where is the inconsistent interpretation, when I am basing my arguments on the Japanese version of this manga and what is described in the franchise, and the justification used for the Gold Saints is wrong, because it is based on mistranslations and misinterpretation of facts, and only two of the examples could really justify that level for the Gold Saints.
 
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StekFence said:
Wdym, they owned the god warriors, they owned loki. Loki was struggling to defend against god cloth deathmask and Aphrodite attacks.
Click to expand...
A god weaker than Odin, whom Hilda describes as a god weaker than Poseidon in a human body that had not yet fully awakened. In the end, Aiolia needs the power of all the God Saints, the power of the Land of Asgard and the Daupnir (a sacred treasure) to defeat him, and it is later revealed that he was not destroyed and was only sealed. Seiya, Shiryu and Hyoga killed Hypnos and Thanatos forever, and all the protagonists were infinitely stronger than in their battle with Poseidon.
 
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RIZEXX said:
I do have some more but I would have to pick them out and stuff. As for the encyclopedia I have a bunch of RAWS for it. I also have taizen RAWS in actually good quality
Click to expand...
i do have sojme scans id like the raws for... they would be very helpful..
 
Found a possible new way to calc silver saint misty's feat.

if its accepted it would upgrade hsi Tarble attack to an attack speed of

8252.91244661625 mph or 13281.77512848612 km per hour

the calc has an AP feat of

KE = 0.5*353045013239190*13281.77512848612^2 = 3.113954996710918 × 10 ^ 22 Joules or 31139549967109180000000 Joules or Barely above just ******* barely above baseline Tier 6-B or Country level
 
divide that by 100 for black saint arc Seiya (Start of Silver Saint Arc Seiya) and you get

3.113955e+20 joules or SUPER HIGH TIER Island level, or Tier 6-C
 
no idea if i did it right though sooooo lol

still trying to understand earthquake feats and mountain shaking feats lol
 
You know, i was reading some english scans, and theres a statement that saga can meditate for 100 days. Thats a long sleep
 
Im only on The cancer temple atm, and theres alr been like, 5 cases of attack reflection by gold saints. Interesting
 
Just going by sagas profile, there is no attack reflection. Also, i think they should have precog via 6th sense, and there cloths should have a weak regen. Seiyas profile has attack reflection tho
 
additionally, ikki was able to create a barrier with his thoughts, tho he couldn’t move and had no senses. Would that be thought based cosmo(matter,heat,soul hax) usage?
 
He completely Destroys the silver cloth of Cepheus as well, using his “true power” so prob doesn’t scale to the other bronzes till later
 
i'll go back and look at the details of it.

Ocean splitting have a lot of variables to consider for calcs...
 
I found probably a feat or description of destructive power that the Silver Saints could scale.

In the Taizen it is described that Millis (one of the Specters that Saga, Camus and Shura killed to steal his armor) has the power to open the earth, and would sink the Sanctuary into the ground after the Specters killed Athena (probably when the Sanctuary lost the protection of the goddess's cosmos with her death and all the Temple guardians were defeated).
uPNqb53.jpg

後方集団を務めていた事が災いし、オクスと同じく、シュラに冥衣を剥ぎ取られた冥闘士。大地を引き裂く技で、女神抹殺後の聖域を地に沈める役目を担っていた。

Translation in Spanish and Portuguese.
FORJbG7.jpg

---------------------------------------------------
IHxyJfQ.jpg

Most Specters are on the level of Silver and Bronze Saints (even a doped up lion like Goldie destroys a squad of Specters with ease), so a Silver Saint could get the power scale of this power description from a Specter like Millis.

Also a Silver Saint like Juan can create a storm.
4lnUBTr.jpeg

9OdlcjV.jpeg

W4RaZaD.jpeg

bg2FeG0.jpeg

qw6W9aP.jpeg

pPUZPLM.jpeg

StekFence said:
He completely Destroys the silver cloth of Cepheus as well, using his “true power” so prob doesn’t scale to the other bronzes till later
Click to expand...
Splitting the sea and breaking free from the indestructible chains of Andromeda is a test for a Bronze Saint, therefore, all Silver Saints must scale this feat.
cNo8R3h.jpg

q55Mfwp.jpg

ONIWTTl.jpg

XyTX7zE.jpg
Also, Shun never used his true power in this test.
 
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