Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Are you intentionally not reading what I'm saying? You keep bring up hax and abilities to a discussion about attack potency, like come on dude, pay attention, you're repeating yourself like a broken record responding to stuff that wasn't even brought up.

Just because he can't freeze a gold cloth, doesn't mean he doesn't have the AP to hurt other gold saints.....

In attack power, Deathmask threatens to kill Mu with one blow, and the Dagger Rose can pierce a Gold Cloth in Next Dimension and the Piranhan Rose can easily destroy the Andromeda Chain (one of the most powerful defenses in the Bronze Saints) from a Shun to the maximum. Sorrento's technique couldn't kill even a weakened Aldebaran without armor.

He needs that temperature to mortally damage a Gold Saint, because if he doesn't reach that temperature he can never defeat a Gold Saint.

 

[Hasty12345]

Deathmask threatens to kill Mu with one blow

Yeah and he can totally do it, given Mu smacked him and Aphro around like 0 diff..... and then was getting man handled by Shura and Camus.....

So Daethmasks statement is 100% fact isn't it?

and keep bringing up hax in an AP discussion...... You're just convincing me you're not reading the discussion at hand and are spurting irrelevant dribble.

And if Camus can't "mortally wound a gold saint".... why doesn't Shaka and Mu just stand there and let him hit them? Guess they should probably avoid his attacks as they hurt huh, especially when he's by no means the weakest Gold Saint.

 

[StekFence]

Honestly, since mu kinda defeated aphro and deathmask easily, he should be above them. Deathmasks statement holds less weight than the fact that the time he tried to fight mu, he lost, even with help.

 

[Hasty12345]

Honestly, since mu kinda defeated aphro and deathmask easily, he should be above them. Deathmasks statement holds less weight than the fact that the time he tried to fight mu, he lost, even with help.

Deathmasks statement hold 0 weight, dude is so cocky he died to a pre-mastered 7th sense bronze saint...

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yeah and he can totally do it, given Mu smacked him and Aphro around like 0 diff..... and then was getting man handled by Shura and Camus.....

So Daethmasks statement is 100% fact isn't it?

and keep bringing up hax in an AP discussion...... You're just convincing me you're not reading the discussion at hand and are spurting irrelevant dribble.

And if Camus can't "mortally wound a gold saint".... why doesn't Shaka and Mu just stand there and let him hit them? Guess they should probably avoid his attacks as they hurt huh, especially when he's by no means the weakest Gold Saint.

He used his most powerful technique, and Aphro and Deathmask didn't die, they didn't even receive mortal damage to their bodies. Camus' attack didn't do any damage to Mu (because his attack doesn't have absolute zero), he even receives more damage from Deathmask's blows, which threatens to kill him, but Seiya comes to save him at that moment. Shura's Excalibur was easily dodged by Mu. The one who was going to kill Mu with one hit was Saga, because those two are useless.

When I mention a hax attack, a single hit from a Saint is not hax, and the Piranhan Rose and Dagger Rose are not hax, it is just destructive power.

Camus' attack could not cause serious or fatal damage to Mu and Shaka, even the frostbite on Shaka's knee disappears a second later and could not prevent Shaka from dodging Saga's Another Dimension. Camus cannot cause serious or fatal damage to a Gold Saint, because his attack never reached the temperature of absolute zero and only absolute zero can defeat a Gold Saint. Camus is the weakest of the Gold Saints.

Deathmasks statement hold 0 weight, dude is so cocky he died to a pre-mastered 7th sense bronze saint...

Only because he fell into the Yomotsu's hole and his Cloth betrays him, and Shiryu at that time uses a version of the Rozan Shoryu Han with multiple dragons, which could not kill or cause serious damage to Deathmask even when he has no armor. Shiryu with Seventh Sense (in the Sanctuary Arc) is described as more powerful than Shura and even without hitting with full power the Rozan Shoryu Ha breaks Shura's arm.

 

[Hasty12345]

Oh yeah man, Daethmask easily kills Mu in 1 blow

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Oh yeah man, Daethmask easily kills Mu in 1 blow

And this is not important, even that move does not cause any damage to Deathmask and Aprho. Even the Gold Saints are pushed by the power of a Bronze Saint without Seventh Sense, but this does not indicate that they do not have the power to kill a Bronze Saint without Seventh Sense.

This doesn't change that Deathmask was beating Mu and almost kills him with his last blow. Even Kurumada introduces Seiya at that point to save Mu.

Spoiler

 

[Hasty12345]

I can tell this is another frivolous discussion, I'm just going to stop here.

 

[StekFence]

Hey, so I just realized the below quark scan for ss matter manip is proably anime only, since steel saint sho is shown on it. Are manga and anime cross scalable?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Interestingly enough, issac cancels kikis telekinesis in the manga. He causes the rocks kiki rises to fall on him

It is likely that Isaac only uses telekinesis, an ability that is common among the Saints. Even Shun uses telekinesis in the first chapters of the series to draw a piece of the Gold Cloth to his hand.

Although it can also be the ability that the Saints have to return the opponent's attack against them (similar to the ability of the gods).

Spoiler

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[Hasty12345]

Hey, so I just realized the below quark scan for ss matter manip is proably anime only, since steel saint sho is shown on it. Are manga and anime cross scalable?

eh, Matt wouldn't like it but it's whatever. The anime takes place within the same multiverse, if cosmo in general outscales the steel saints then I think it's fine to say any Gold Saint can do the same via miracles or something along those lines.

 

[StekFence]

I see

 

[StekFence]

It is likely that Isaac only uses telekinesis, an ability that is common among the Saints. Even Shun uses telekinesis in the first chapters of the series to draw a piece of the Gold Cloth to his hand.

Although it can also be the ability that the Saints have to return the opponent's attack against them (similar to the ability of the gods).

Spoiler

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Yeah that deathmask scan seems really similar to how Poseidon reflected seiyas arrow, which I suppose could possibly be attack reflection for 7th sense users as shion,deathmask,shaka, and saga all have that in common

 

[StekFence]

K

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yeah that deathmask scan seems really similar to how Poseidon reflected seiyas arrow, which I suppose could possibly be attack reflection for 7th sense users as shion,deathmask,shaka, and saga all have that in common

Yes, this is probably a common ability for those who awaken the Seventh Sense, so Gold Saints and Seventh Sense users can get this ability.

Odysseus also uses this ability in Next Dimension to return Tenma's Ryusei Ken against him.

Spoiler

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And I think there are more examples of this ability in the franchise and the original manga.

They can also gain a resistance to reflection attacks, as Saints can overcome this ability with their attacks.

 

[Hasty12345]

Kanon does it to Rhada and Seiya does it to Aldebaran great horn I think? But in both those cases, they're doing it because of their reactive evolution I'm pretty sure

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

In Next Dimension, the Pope of the Sanctuary returns Ikki's Hoyoku Tensho against him.

Spoiler

Although Ikki did not attack with his full power at that moment.

 

[Saiyan40009]

shake is currently stronger gold knight I say we know that airos is stronger than saga by episode g asasin and saga is inferior shaka

 

[Hasty12345]

shake is currently stronger gold knight I say we know that airos is stronger than saga by episode g asasin and saga is inferior shaka

the gold saints in assassins are summoned from different timelines and stuff, so there's no guarantee that the Saga and Shaka that appear in assassins are the same Shaka and Saga from classic.

And Aiolos from GA is for sure not the same as the one from G and classic, he died at 14

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Dark Wing - Chapter 8 in Chinese by 4AllSeiya.

微博

随时随地发现新鲜事！微博带你欣赏世界上每一个精彩瞬间，了解每一个幕后故事。分享你想表达的，让全世界都能听到你的心声！

m.weibo.cn

I will wait for the raw chapter to see if it has any new feats or descriptions, and it seems that Eito mentions the destruction of the Underworld.

Theseus as a gentleman saves Waifu Specter.

It seems that Eito's Excalibur can destroy the spirits that Charlotte summons. In Assassin, Shura needs a power up to destroy spirits (incorporeal beings), a sword with the power of the Underworld that he names as Eclipse Calibur.

Excalibur, the technique that is easiest to dodge and stop by the opponent since 1987.

Spoiler

 

[StekFence]

In Assassin, Shura needs a power up to destroy spirits (incorporeal beings), a sword with the power of the Underworld that he names as Eclipse Calibur.

even jabu could hurt spirits in the classic. And saintia sho. Jabu.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

There is such a thing as NPI sclaing chain

Baseline can be an oridinary spirit/soul/ghost. Someone cna stronger intagibility or a better formless phyiscaless power and get hit.

Naturally Gold Saints can affect higher above baseline Intangibles and incorporeal beings. Some Gold Saints are specifically noted to affect a higher level of those being than other gold saints such as Geminis, Virgos, Capricorns, Cancers. So there isn't any contradictions here as some people like to pretend there is.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

even jabu could hurt spirits in the classic. And saintia sho. Jabu.

Yes, this seems like a common ability for Saints in the main universe, but not in other universes. Even Saga destroys the river and mountain spirits that Shaka summons with his Tenkūhaja Chimimōryō to neutralize his technique and Ikki tries to destroy Hades' soul with his Hoyoku Tensho.

Spoiler

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Also in Origin, Dohko tells Shion to destroy the Lemur (an evil spirit sent by the goddess Ker to possess the body of one of the twins), therefore, Shion could destroy this being as described by Dohko.

Spoiler

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But in other universes like TLC only the Cancer Saint and Asmita fighting in the Underworld (world of the dead) have that ability, the rest don't have that ability, that's why they needed the rosary to seal the soul of the Specters. In Assassin something similar happens, because it seems that only Hades has that power and that's why Shura needs to get the power of the Underworld to destroy spirits (incorporeal beings).

Baseline can be an oridinary spirit/soul/ghost. Someone cna stronger intagibility or a better formless phyiscaless power and get hit.

Like the Dryads, the spirits of these beings cannot be destroyed by the power of the Saints, even when Shoko destroyed evil spirits with her attacks, and can only be destroyed by a Sacred Treasure (Golden Kanzanshi) and by attacking their star points to neutralize their immortality.

Naturally Gold Saints can affect higher above baseline Intangibles and incorporeal beings. Some Gold Saints are specifically noted to affect a higher level of those being than other gold saints such as Geminis, Virgos, Capricorns, Cancers. So there isn't any contradictions here as some people like to pretend there is.

Capricorn no (the Capricorn Saint is a purely physical Saint, that's why his technique is so easy to dodge and stop, and he never uses any mental power or any other ability, even Aldebaran uses illusions in the original manga), only Shura (Assassin's protagonist) has this power in Assassin, because he gets the power of the Underworld, a power up exclusive to that version of the character, which he uses to create his new technique Eclipse Calibur (the technique that can destroy spirits and incorporeal beings in that manga, because Excalibur doesn't have that power).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@Lancelot_de_Cancer

Question, did Aiolia have the 7th sense throughout all of Episode G??

 

[StekFence]

Hes a gold saint. Why shouldnt he

@Lancelot_de_Cancer

Question, did Aiolia have the 7th sense throughout all of Episode G??

 

[Saiyan40009]

a question shaka from virgo is currently the strongest golden hair

 

[StekFence]

a question shaka from virgo is currently the strongest golden hair

Well, not really. Because Poseidon is stronger, and he’s blonde in the manga

 

[Hasty12345]

a question shaka from virgo is currently the strongest golden hair

Zeus in sacred saga also has golden hair iirc, and anti-pope Aiolos should outscale any Shaka

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Charlotte describes that Eito's cosmos distorts the space.
Eito: 俺が仕えるのは「あの御方」のみだ！
Charlotte: 空間がいびつに歪んでいく...!?
Charlotte: なんて暗く激しい小宇宙なの...!

Spoiler

This is similar to Genbu's first appearance in Saint Seiya Omega, where Genbu's cosmos distorts the space around him as he walked through the place.

Spoiler

The attack that destroyed the Underworld is named by Eito as a divine lightning (神の雷).
Eito: この「神の雷」は今、貴様らの巣である冥界を穿っているのだからな
Charlotte: 冥界に直接の攻撃を...!?
Eito: それに、 俺はあの「紛い物」をアテナとは認めん
Charlotte: カトレアさんが紛い物...?

Spoiler

@Lancelot_de_Cancer

Question, did Aiolia have the 7th sense throughout all of Episode G??

It seems that he only awakened the 7th Sense in his fight against Coeus. Although it could also be that in that fight he dominated the 7th Sense.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

[/SPOILER]

This is similar to Genbu's first appearance in Saint Seiya Omega, where Genbu's cosmos distorts the space around him as he walked through the place.

Spoiler

Omega has to where Gold Saints can rip space and time to open a portal to teleport at light speeds iirc

The attack that destroyed the Underworld is named by Eito as a divine lightning (神の雷).
Eito: この「神の雷」は今、貴様らの巣である冥界を穿っているのだからな
Charlotte: 冥界に直接の攻撃を...!?
Eito: それに、 俺はあの「紛い物」をアテナとは認めん
Charlotte: カトレアさんが紛い物...?

Spoiler

this is just weird but funny lmao

Athena in DW has lightening powers whut

It seems that he only awakened the 7th Sense in his fight against Coeus. Although it could also be that in that fight he dominated the 7th Sense.

Im of the opinion that he alwasy had it but he learned to master it during that fight. Other wise it makes no sense and becomes a "Plot induced stupidity" moment.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

After reading Shaina's page.

Why is this a feat of destructive power for the Saints?

Nameless Saint pierces the Earth

vsbattles.fandom.com

This is not a feat of the Saint, because that destruction would not be produced by the power of that Saint's apprentice. The only thing that happens in that chapter is that the nuclear reactor was going to explode, because the apprentice was destroying the place, we can even see how the Saint is just hitting like an idiot the reactor.

Spoiler

The unique feat of this chapter is that the Saint can withstand nuclear radiation with his cosmo and an apprentice of Saint can destroy some steel pipes and concrete with his fists.

Funny how most of the feats in Episode.G (original manga/first manga) are either a mistranslation or misinterpretation by fans.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

After reading Shaina's page.

Why is this a feat of destructive power for the Saints?

Nameless Saint pierces the Earth

vsbattles.fandom.com

This is not a feat of the Saint, because that destruction would not be produced by the power of that Saint's apprentice. The only thing that happens in that chapter is that the nuclear reactor was going to explode, because the apprentice was destroying the place, we can even see how the Saint is just hitting like an idiot the reactor.

The unique feat of this chapter is that the Saint can withstand nuclear radiation with his cosmo and an apprentice of Saint can destroy some steel pipes and concrete with his fists.

Funny how most of the feats in Episode.G (original manga/first manga) are either a mistranslation or misinterpretation by fans.

Tbh i agree that feat as an AP is nonsensical with a lot of issues

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I am still looking for lifting strength feats for Bronze and Silver Saint level characters.

Although I did not find anything impressive.

Kiki, who is weaker than a Silver Saint, lifts several stones with telekinesis, and seems to lift a stone larger than himself with his arm.

Spoiler

A random Mariner fights with an anchor.

Spoiler

Saintia Sho has many feats, but this manga has no lifting strength feats.

Episode.G has this feat, probably the best feat in a manga of the franchise for a warrior weaker than a Gold Saint, but only if Hector is considered a warrior of the level of a Bronze or Silver Saint. Hector lifts a large stone with one arm.

Spoiler

 

[Hasty12345]

Funny how most of the feats in Episode.G (original manga/first manga) are either a mistranslation or misinterpretation by fans.

most of G is mistranslated because it has no official English translations and the BR release was to be frank, awful.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Requiem - Chapter 17
https://mangacross.jp/comics/requiem/17


The title of this chapter is "Superluminal speed (超光速度)"

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Script of chapter 17 in French by Cedde.

Spoiler

Page 1

Seiya : Qui est-là ?
Seiya : Qui, excepté moi…
Seiya : est porteur d’un pouvoir qui ne devrait plus exister ?
Seiya : Semblable à une lueur d’espoir…
Seiya : au cœur des ténèbres…

Pages 2-3

Seiya : C’est une lumière dorée qui brille dans le ciel rougeoyant du matin…
Seiya : C’est de l’or qui brûle éternellement…
Seiya : C’est un combattant sacré !

Pages 4-5

Brontès : Mugen Koudou (voie cramoisie (de lumière) infinie)

Pages 6-7

Shura : Excalibur
Brontès : Il tranche…
Brontès : et désintègre…
Brontès : l’entièreté du monde.
Brontès : Ce pouvoir…

Page 8

Brontès : Ce n’est pas celui d’un mortel.

Page 9

Argès : Ce Cosmos…
Argès : ne devrait plus exister.
Argès : Il a été totalement anéanti, il ne devrait pas même en rester des déchets.
Argès : C’est le pouvoir ardent de l’âme d’un Gold Saint.
Argès : Athéna…
Argès : Tu as utilisé le Temps (Chronos) lui-même…
Argès : pour protéger la Terre et les mortels ?
Athéna : Je suis vraiment…
Athéna : désolée.

Page 10

Athéna : Je vous ai envoyés marcher sur la voie des Shuras aux frontières du néant pour l’éternité.
Shura : Saga.
Shura : Je peine énormément à maintenir la forme de mes deux bras. Combien de temps me reste-t-il ?
Saga : Le flux temporel est sévèrement compromis…
Saga : Disons 300 secondes.

Page 11

Saga : Si tu dépasses ce temps, tes bras et ta jambe gauche se désagrégeront…
Saga : et à la fin, ton corps entier sera totalement anéanti.
Brontès : Tu as été éjecté du flux temporel…
Brontès : et erres désormais entre les dimensions.
Brontès : Tu es celui dont le destin est de combattre éternellement.
Brontès : Ignoré de tous…
Brontès : tu voyages éternellement dans la multitude de dimensions existantes…
Brontès : et deviens la force de tous, humains et Saints.

Pages 12-13

Brontès : Celui qui combat les dieux avec détermination.
Brontès : Un Shura.
Brontès : Mugen Gouken (infinité de poings puissants)

Page 14

Shura : Une infinité d’assauts violents qui viennent de toutes les directions.
Shura : Même en vitesse lumière…
Shura : je ne pourrais pas…
Shura : tous…
Shura : les intercepter.

Page 15

Shura : Dans ce cas, je n’ai plus qu’à aller plus vite.
Shura : Invocation du Neuvième Sens.
Shura : À…
Shura : moi...
Shura : les…
Shura : tachyons.

Pages 16-17

Shura : Activation du trésor sacré

Pages 18-19

Shura : Ex Machina

Page 20

Shura : Seiya, tu n’es…
Shura : certainement pas seul.
Shura : J'ai vu la destruction et la fin d'innombrables mondes.
Shura : J’ai vu le désespoir, la mort, la tristesse…
Shura : La peur insurmontable… Mais au-delà de tout ça, je suis persuadé qu’il reste toujours une chose.
Shura : L’étincelante lumière de l’espoir.
Shura : C’est parce que j’y crois que je me tiens debout dans ce monde.

Arges mentions that Athena used the power of the time (Chronos) to save the world, probably a reference to Assassin and the ritual they created to bring the Saints from different dimensions and times.

Shura was exiled from time and space at the end of Assassin, when the Saints disappeared with the destruction of the black core, and now wanders through different dimensions. Shura says he can't stay long in this world, indicating that he only has 300 seconds or 5 minutes before he disappears. This reminds me of the ending of Tsubasa Chronicles, where Syaoran ended up doomed to travel through different dimensions and couldn't stay in one world for long.

Shura's attack can exceed the speed of light and counteracts Brontes' attack, and he also mentions that he awakens the 9th Sense in this attack (I hope Okada finally explained this sense in his manga).

Shura says to Seiya that he traveled through countless worlds and saw destruction in many worlds on his journey through the multiverse, but there was always hope.

This last part reconfirms that there are no gods with a multiversal existence in this franchise, each universe has its own gods, even Shura mentions that he saw the destruction of many worlds in his journey through the multiverse, therefore, he saw multiple dimensions with wars between the gods and how this causes death, sadness and despair in the worlds.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So what is the relationship between Gods and their Host? It can't be something simple.

For example, Every iteration of Aiolia in the Multiverse is at threat of Zeus possessing them. But why not any other person? Why only Aiolia? It can be as simple as "Zeus's weapon and lightening," Why would Zeus even give out his weapons in the first place?

We get an explanation for Shun and Alone but truthfully that explanation makes no facking sense. Also, if it is truly about purity and innocence why tf does it have to be them in in all universe of the multiverse? There has to be a tie breaker or a close second.

They can't be avatars, but they also can't be conceptually different beings.. There has to be a relation between them somewhere...

 

[AerrowStorm1]

This last part reconfirms that there are no gods with a multiversal existence in this franchise, each universe has its own gods, even Shura mentions that he saw the destruction of many worlds in his journey through the multiverse, therefore, he saw multiple dimensions with wars between the gods and how this causes death, sadness and despair in the worlds.

Gonna disagree there. Saying you saw mutliple worlds destroyed =/= seeing multiple versions of the same people.

For example, Pariah states in COIE that he saw multiple universes destroyed, but they were all destroyed by one person, the Anti-Monitor.

In n52, they state that they saw multiple universes "Fall" to Darkseid, but again, it was one Darkseid.

Just saying, you're making a bit of a hasty generalization.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

So what is the relationship between Gods and their Host? It can't be something simple.

For example, Every iteration of Aiolia in the Multiverse is at threat of Zeus possessing them. But why not any other person? Why only Aiolia? It can be as simple as "Zeus's weapon and lightening," Why would Zeus even give out his weapons in the first place?

We get an explanation for Shun and Alone but truthfully that explanation makes no facking sense. Also, if it is truly about purity and innocence why tf does it have to be them in in all universe of the multiverse? There has to be a tie breaker or a close second.

They can't be avatars, but they also can't be conceptually different beings.. There has to be a relation between them somewhere...

Zeus only says that the version of Aiolia of the Lost World is destined to be his avatar, regardless of the universe he was in at the time. Zeus never says that every Aiolia in the multiverse is destined to be his avatar. For example, Aiolia of the main universe was never destined to be an avatar of any god, that's why it is even dead.

The explanation for the choice of the host of Hades is simple, he is a racist. Hades hates humanity, so he will not use the body of any human and will only use the body of the purest human on Earth.

In Dark Wing, Shun was never destined to be Hades' avatar. Hades's body in this universe is a different young man from Shun, and some theorize that he may be Yoruhime's (Pandora) brother.

Spoiler

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Zeus only says that the version of Aiolia of the Lost World is destined to be his avatar, regardless of the universe he was in at the time. Zeus never says that every Aiolia in the multiverse is destined to be his avatar. For example, Aiolia of the main universe was never destined to be an avatar of any god, that's why it is even dead.

The explanation for the choice of the host of Hades is simple, he is a racist. Hades hates humanity, so he will not use the body of any human and will only use the body of the purest human on Earth.

In Dark Wing, Shun was never destined to be Hades' avatar. Hades's body in this universe is a different young man from Shun, and some theorize that he may be Yoruhime's (Pandora) brother.

So we're just going to ignore thar Zeus says "regardless of the universe, time, era, dimension, etc uou will always be my vessel."??? Sounds like headcanon